Fwd: Tantric Astrology

hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote:

 

Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,

==>

Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

tantric astrology?

<==

Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th

century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " .

 

Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam

Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam

Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam

Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam

Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim

Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha

Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha

Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale

Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana

Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya

(Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century AD)

[King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring to

Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly the 7

Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala,

Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts

such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam,

Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc]

So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati Jayacharya

as Tantric astrology or something else?!

Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long list

of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? Yap,

facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.

 

The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from ancient

Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha

Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, Surya

jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available quotes to

prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not provide

any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or

appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us go

by the datable and available texts.

* 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as

Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas settled

in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.

* 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved by

scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and also

that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his father's

name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that ends

in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per Sanskrit

dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come and

settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and Mihira

cannot be Vedic brahmins.

* 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali from

AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the

author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. Kalyana

Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a not

a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - evidently

a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident from

the quote I provided above.

* 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from Orissa.

Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a

Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.

 

So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -

 

* Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, certainly

it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never

supported by Vedic Brahmins!

 

* Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly it was

followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported by

Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva Parisishta,

Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs

provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well

evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; no

scarcity of proofs for the same!]

Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same.

Regards,

Sreenadh

 

hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@>

wrote:

>

> Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,

> ==>

> Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> tantric astrology?

> <==

> Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act it.

> Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is scope

> for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start.

> Regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> ======================================

> Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya

> Mahatantra=========================================The available text

on

> Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and 160

> slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem in the

head'.

> The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord

Siva)

> & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra

(Medicine)

> are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the

> tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is the

> branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the

> tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, attracting

> others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their

native

> place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. Yes,

it

> is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of

> superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem

like

> knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the branch

of

> Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing

about

> the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala Tantra

> and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the

available

> partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use medicine

> inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma

> (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc. But

we

> canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology)

> aswell, here and there in this text. [use of medicine

in

> worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal plants

are

> mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some secret

> purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. Tantra

> is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been the

> real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in the

> text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]

> Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and KalaTantra,

we

> could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with

Kala

> Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala

Tantra

> might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.

> Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva

- " Approaching

> lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of all

> worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with

folded

> hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees

please

> give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same style

> Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from lord

> Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology) as

> well, here and there in this text. Only because

> Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be

> conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this conclusion.

As

> mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another name for

this

> text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " by the

> saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- " Like

> the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,

> Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) "

> Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra -

> Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis even

> the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates that Kala

> Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But that

> part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.

> There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives a

> list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe

> beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but only

> the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted text.

> Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be

missing.

> This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra is an

> incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question

> rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn from

lord

> Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could be

> made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he might

> haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made use

> inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-

" In

> this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are present.

> Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in many

> other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra that

> would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) 'in

the

> right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what Dattatreya

> requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine

(Kala

> Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is Shadkarma

> etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge

> liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya

> isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and

> giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.

> Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere

> indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda hereindicates

> the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,

> Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor Tantric

> devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement

> 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra (Agama)

and

> Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava

Tantra.

> Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of

Dattatreya

> to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him the

> vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial for

the

> purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.

> This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted state at

> the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was very

> difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile. The

> sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and Puranas

> borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and

> incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the pain of

> the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is

becoming

> lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the heritage of

> Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great

> knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes

> himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, first

> told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret knowledge

> branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true devotee of

> the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does not

> believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One should

> teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and is

a

> devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, " Astrology is

> originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special

> attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this truth

> was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope, or

> cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). This

is

> the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the form

of

> Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate Guru

> andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.

> Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe concept

> about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of

astrology,

> we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma

> (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva

> (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda

> (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma

> (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept about

the

> originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all

different

> schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and existed

in

> thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi

> andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a

> laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts such

> asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some

othercivilization

> which existed before all these cultures, such as theSindhu-Saraswati

> civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove

> whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.

> In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in the

> available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back to

> that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be

> utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells Dattatreya -

> " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe

> upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on medicine)which

is

> beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside the

> knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit with

> medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta, Day,

> Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious muhoorta

> is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for the

> well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it the

> disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect

> mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these

> medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice lord

> Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those slokas

are

> not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone is

> interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra to

know

> more about that. But the last chapter of the available

> printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The

> determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva said:

> " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of humanbeings I

> will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " Dwadesa dala

> chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani

> likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate

> grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe

> manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha chandre

> stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete

> (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can

have

> an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of

> months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of the

> petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current planetary

> positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in the

> Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti)

> theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If Vedha

> ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, forJupiter

-

> pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for Venus

-

> gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every month "

> Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha ismentioned

> here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha is

> present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu

> (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka was

a

> real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1)

> Mention of months starting from

> Chitra--------- Why it

> is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the

> numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each

square

> of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - Chaitra

=

> Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?

> If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should

becalculated,

> taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg

away

> from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) Mrityu

> Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn mentioned

> with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha janma

> rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would have

been

> enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning Saturn

and

> instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?

> If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, then

what

> other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha - Nakshatra

> or sign------------------------------ The word Riksha

has

> got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha

> Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon

> Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha

represents

> both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both

> Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to

> calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) Vedha

> and the related prediction---

> Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid that

> results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe Vedha

> concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof Vedha is

> present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha Vedha

in

> the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while

predicting

> with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or

> Gochara---------------------- This Gochara-Vedha system

> of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase

> vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit should be

> considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he avoided

> mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu?(6)

> Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------

> Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho

> introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter a

> similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we

observe

> from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after

Sripati

> of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the

concept

> of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra?

> No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers to

> the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology

> mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.

> For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify them

into

> several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period

> (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and allied

> literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic

> Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic Astrology)(v)

> Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis the

> biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a wholesecret

> tradition) waiting for us![Chandra Hari is specially interested in

> Tantric Astrology and theSidhantic astronomy](vi) Astrology of Arsha

> school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. This

is

> a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda Hora,

> Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas in

this

> school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, Sounaka

> etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha

> Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of thought](vii)

> Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient

> astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in Indianastrology

> starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in this

> school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course

there

> are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But

books

> on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not

> including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single

> authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of the

> categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for

research!

> They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and reveal the

> knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge on

> astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,

unexplored

> literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,

> " TamasomaJyotirgamaya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of work

pending,

> andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is

> meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their

> secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly

> inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our search

for

> thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is child's

> play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! Let

> usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all,

forthe

> benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,Sreenadh

>

>

> ======================================

>

>

>

> hinducivilization , " Bhadraiah Mallampalli "

> vaidix@ wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jit Majumdar,

> >

> > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. That

is

> > >my point also – that people should learn to give *everything*

its

> > >due. Not only the `vedas'.

> >

> > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.

> >

> > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the

> > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or mathematicians. A

> > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by the

> > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and can be

> > called " veda " in the modern sense.

> >

> > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are not

> > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results (we

> > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To discard

> > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished

> > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is stupid.

> > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from

> > Newton's works.

> >

> > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't understand

> > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total

Vedic

> > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well,

> > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda are

> > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda

> > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it.

> >

> > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of

> > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and

inconceivable

> > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal

> > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted completely

> > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of

> > astrology as a veda.

> >

> > Bhadraiah

> >

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.

 

Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a

poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;

according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's

predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies

for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him

to be a non-brahmin?

 

Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of

Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.

 

Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read

Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah

Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even

today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone

from India, which is proven by their gotra names.

 

It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is

still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.

 

Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri

brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric

followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !

 

Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical

astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic

Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist

authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to

poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical

method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the

backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,

ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other

houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even

in the nirayana school.

 

I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions

propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :

Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never

practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely

discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.

 

-VJ

============= ================= =====================

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote:

>

> Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,

> ==>

> Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> tantric astrology?

> <==

> Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th

> century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " .

>

> Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam

> Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam

> Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam

> Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam

> Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim

> Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha

> Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha

> Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale

> Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana

> Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya

> (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century AD)

> [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring to

> Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly the 7

> Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala,

> Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts

> such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam,

> Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc]

> So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati Jayacharya

> as Tantric astrology or something else?!

> Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long list

> of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? Yap,

> facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.

>

> The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from ancient

> Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha

> Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, Surya

> jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available quotes to

> prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not provide

> any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or

> appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us go

> by the datable and available texts.

> * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as

> Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas settled

> in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.

> * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved by

> scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and also

> that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his father's

> name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that ends

> in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per Sanskrit

> dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come and

> settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and Mihira

> cannot be Vedic brahmins.

> * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali from

> AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the

> author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. Kalyana

> Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a not

> a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - evidently

> a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident from

> the quote I provided above.

> * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from

Orissa.

> Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a

> Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.

>

> So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -

>

> * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, certainly

> it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never

> supported by Vedic Brahmins!

>

> * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly

it was

> followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported by

> Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva Parisishta,

> Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs

> provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well

> evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; no

> scarcity of proofs for the same!]

> Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same.

> Regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,

> > ==>

> > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> > tantric astrology?

> > <==

> > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act it.

>

> > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is scope

> > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start.

> > Regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > ======================================

> > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya

> > Mahatantra=========================================The available text

> on

> > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and 160

> > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem in the

> head'.

> > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord

> Siva)

> > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra

> (Medicine)

> > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the

> > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is the

> > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the

> > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, attracting

> > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their

> native

> > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. Yes,

> it

> > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of

> > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem

> like

> > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the branch

> of

> > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing

> about

> > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala Tantra

> > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the

> available

> > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use medicine

> > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma

> > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc. But

> we

> > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology)

> > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of medicine

> in

> > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal plants

> are

> > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some secret

> > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. Tantra

> > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been the

> > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in the

> > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]

> > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and KalaTantra,

> we

> > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with

> Kala

> > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala

> Tantra

> > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.

> > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva

> - " Approaching

> > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of all

> > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with

> folded

> > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees

> please

> > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same style

> > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from lord

> > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology) as

> > well, here and there in this text. Only because

> > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be

> > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this conclusion.

> As

> > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another name for

> this

> > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " by the

> > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- " Like

> > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,

> > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) "

> > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra -

> > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis even

> > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates that Kala

> > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But that

> > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.

> > There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives a

> > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe

> > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but only

> > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted text.

> > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be

> missing.

> > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra is an

> > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question

> > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn from

> lord

> > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could be

> > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he might

> > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made use

> > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-

> " In

> > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are present.

> > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in many

> > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra that

> > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) 'in

> the

> > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what Dattatreya

> > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine

> (Kala

> > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is Shadkarma

> > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge

> > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya

> > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and

> > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.

> > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere

> > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda hereindicates

> > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,

> > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor Tantric

> > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement

> > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra (Agama)

> and

> > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava

> Tantra.

> > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of

> Dattatreya

> > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him the

> > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial for

> the

> > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.

> > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted state at

> > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was very

> > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile. The

> > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and Puranas

> > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and

> > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the pain of

> > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is

> becoming

> > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the heritage of

> > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great

> > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes

> > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, first

> > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret knowledge

> > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true devotee of

> > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does not

> > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One should

> > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and is

> a

> > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, " Astrology is

> > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special

> > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this truth

> > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope, or

> > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). This

> is

> > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the form

> of

> > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate Guru

> > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.

> > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe concept

> > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of

> astrology,

> > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma

> > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva

> > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda

> > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma

> > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept about

> the

> > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all

> different

> > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and existed

> in

> > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi

> > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a

> > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts such

> > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some

> othercivilization

> > which existed before all these cultures, such as theSindhu-Saraswati

> > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove

> > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.

> > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in the

> > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back to

> > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be

> > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells Dattatreya -

> > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe

> > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on medicine)which

> is

> > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside the

> > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit with

> > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta, Day,

> > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious muhoorta

> > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for the

> > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it the

> > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect

> > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these

> > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice lord

> > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those slokas

> are

> > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone is

> > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra to

> know

> > more about that. But the last chapter of the available

> > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The

> > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva said:

> > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of humanbeings I

> > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " Dwadesa dala

> > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani

> > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate

> > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe

> > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha chandre

> > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete

> > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can

> have

> > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of

> > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of the

> > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current planetary

> > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in the

> > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti)

> > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If Vedha

> > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, forJupiter

> -

> > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for Venus

> -

> > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every month "

> > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha ismentioned

> > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha is

> > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu

> > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka was

> a

> > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1)

> > Mention of months starting from

> > Chitra--------- Why it

> > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the

> > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each

> square

> > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - Chaitra

> =

> > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?

> > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should

> becalculated,

> > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg

> away

> > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) Mrityu

> > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn mentioned

> > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha janma

> > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would have

> been

> > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning Saturn

> and

> > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?

> > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, then

> what

> > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha - Nakshatra

> > or sign------------------------------ The word Riksha

> has

> > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha

> > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon

> > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha

> represents

> > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both

> > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to

> > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) Vedha

> > and the related prediction---

> > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid that

> > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe Vedha

> > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof Vedha is

> > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha Vedha

> in

> > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while

> predicting

> > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or

> > Gochara---------------------- This Gochara-Vedha system

> > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase

> > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit should be

> > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he avoided

> > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu?(6)

> > Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------

> > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho

> > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter a

> > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we

> observe

> > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after

> Sripati

> > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the

> concept

> > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra?

> > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers to

> > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology

> > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.

> > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify them

> into

> > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period

> > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and allied

> > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic

> > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic Astrology)(v)

> > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis the

> > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a wholesecret

> > tradition) waiting for us![Chandra Hari is specially interested in

> > Tantric Astrology and theSidhantic astronomy](vi) Astrology of Arsha

> > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. This

> is

> > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda Hora,

> > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas in

> this

> > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, Sounaka

> > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha

> > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of thought](vii)

> > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient

> > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in Indianastrology

> > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in this

> > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course

> there

> > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But

> books

> > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not

> > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single

> > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of the

> > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for

> research!

> > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and reveal the

> > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge on

> > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,

> unexplored

> > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,

> > " TamasomaJyotirgamaya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of work

> pending,

> > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is

> > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their

> > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly

> > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our search

> for

> > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is child's

> > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! Let

> > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all,

> forthe

> > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,Sreenadh

> >

> >

> > ======================================

> >

> >

> >

> > hinducivilization , " Bhadraiah Mallampalli "

> > vaidix@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Jit Majumdar,

> > >

> > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. That

> is

> > > >my point also – that people should learn to give *everything*

> its

> > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.

> > >

> > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.

> > >

> > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the

> > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or mathematicians. A

> > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by the

> > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and can be

> > > called " veda " in the modern sense.

> > >

> > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are not

> > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results (we

> > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To discard

> > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished

> > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is stupid.

> > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from

> > > Newton's works.

> > >

> > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't understand

> > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total

> Vedic

> > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well,

> > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda are

> > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda

> > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it.

> > >

> > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for

> > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of

> > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and

> inconceivable

> > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal

> > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted completely

> > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of

> > > astrology as a veda.

> > >

> > > Bhadraiah

> > >

> >

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

Dear Sreenadh ji,//King Narapati tells us //I think Narpati was a Kavi who wrote about King's Jay Charya (About victory in wars etc.//Aryabhata was a Jain//

I had read earlier (probably Aryabhatiya) that he was a Brahmin.RegardsNeelam

Dear Vinay ji, Thanks for the informative post. ==>> Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a> poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies> for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him> to be a non-brahmin?<== Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. ==>> Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. <== No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?". So I would be pardened in this case I belive. ==>> Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.<== The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give more light about the line of argument: Chandra Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf ==>> Varah> Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even> today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> from India, which is proven by their gotra names. <== That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala" - is it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?==>> It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.<== OK - Possible. ==>> Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri> brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! <== Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol worship, temple worship etc. ==>> Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> poke fun at nirayana system. E<== Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak otherwise. ==>> Even in the nirayana school, tropical> method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other> houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even> in the nirayana school.<== Agree. ==>> Completely tropical astrology was never> practised in India by anyone. <== Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. ==>> If nirayana system is completely> discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.<== Agree. Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are thirsty. Love and Hugs,Sreenadh , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a> poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies> for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him> to be a non-brahmin?> > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah> Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even> today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri> brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical> method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other> houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even> in the nirayana school.> > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :> Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > -VJ> ============= ================= =====================> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > ==>> > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > tantric astrology?> > <==> > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati Jayacharya".> > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana> > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century AD)> > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring to> > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly the 7> > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala,> > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts> > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam,> > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc]> > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati Jayacharya> > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long list> > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? Yap,> > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from ancient> > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, Surya> > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available quotes to> > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not provide> > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or> > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us go> > by the datable and available texts.> > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as> > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas settled> > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved by> > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and also> > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his father's> > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that ends> > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per Sanskrit> > dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come and> > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and Mihira> > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali from> > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the> > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. Kalyana> > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a not> > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - evidently> > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident from> > the quote I provided above.> > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> Orissa.> > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a> > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, certainly> > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never> > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly> it was> > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported by> > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva Parisishta,> > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs> > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well> > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; no> > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > Regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > wrote:> > >> > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > ==>> > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > tantric astrology?> > > <==> > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act it.> > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is scope> > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > Regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > ======================================> > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > Mahatantra=========================================The available text> > on> > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and 160> > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem in the> > head'.> > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord> > Siva)> > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra> > (Medicine)> > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the> > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is the> > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the> > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, attracting> > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their> > native> > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. Yes,> > it> > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of> > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem> > like> > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the branch> > of> > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing> > about> > > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala Tantra> > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the> > available> > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use medicine> > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc. But> > we> > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology)> > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of medicine> > in> > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal plants> > are> > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some secret> > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. Tantra> > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been the> > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in the> > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]> > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and KalaTantra,> > we> > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with> > Kala> > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala> > Tantra> > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > -"Approaching> > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of all> > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with> > folded> > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees> > please> > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same style> > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from lord> > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology) as> > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be> > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this conclusion.> > As> > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another name for> > this> > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head" by the> > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- "Like> > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,> > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra -> > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis even> > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates that Kala> > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But that> > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives a> > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe> > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but only> > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted text.> > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be> > missing.> > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra is an> > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn from> > lord> > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could be> > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he might> > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made use> > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > "In> > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are present.> > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in many> > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra that> > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) 'in> > the> > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what Dattatreya> > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > (Kala> > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is Shadkarma> > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge> > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere> > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda hereindicates> > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor Tantric> > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement> > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra (Agama)> > and> > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava> > Tantra.> > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of> > Dattatreya> > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him the> > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial for> > the> > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted state at> > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was very> > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile. The> > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and Puranas> > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and> > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the pain of> > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is> > becoming> > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the heritage of> > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes> > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, first> > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret knowledge> > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true devotee of> > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does not> > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One should> > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and is> > a> > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement, "Astrology is> > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special> > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this truth> > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope, or> > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). This> > is> > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the form> > of> > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate Guru> > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.> > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe concept> > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > astrology,> > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept about> > the> > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all> > different> > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and existed> > in> > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi> > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a> > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts such> > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > othercivilization> > > which existed before all these cultures, such as theSindhu-Saraswati> > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove> > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in the> > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back to> > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be> > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells Dattatreya -> > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe> > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on medicine)which> > is> > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside the> > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit with> > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta, Day,> > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious muhoorta> > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for the> > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it the> > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect> > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these> > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships)" With this advice lord> > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those slokas> > are> > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone is> > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra to> > know> > > more about that. But the last chapter of the available> > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The> > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva said:> > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of humanbeings I> > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen" Dwadesa dala> > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani> > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate> > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe> > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha chandre> > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete> > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)"From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can> > have> > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of> > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of the> > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current planetary> > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in the> > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti)> > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If Vedha> > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, forJupiter> > -> > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for Venus> > -> > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every month"> > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha ismentioned> > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha is> > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu> > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka was> > a> > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1)> > > Mention of months starting from> > > Chitra--------- Why it> > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the> > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each> > square> > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - Chaitra > > => > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > becalculated,> > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg> > away> > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) Mrityu> > > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn mentioned> > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma riksha janma> > > rasim veekshante sanaischare", directlymentioning Saturn would have> > been> > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning Saturn> > and> > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, then> > what> > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha - Nakshatra> > > or sign------------------------------ The word Riksha> > has> > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha> > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon> > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > represents> > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both> > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to> > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) Vedha> > > and the related prediction---> > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid that> > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe Vedha> > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof Vedha is> > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha Vedha> > in> > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while> > predicting> > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > Gochara---------------------- This Gochara-Vedha system> > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase> > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit should be> > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he avoided> > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and Ketu?(6)> > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------> > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho> > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter a> > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we> > observe> > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after> > Sripati> > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the> > concept> > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra?> > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers to> > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology> > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify them> > into> > > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period> > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and allied> > > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic> > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic Astrology)(v)> > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis the> > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a wholesecret> > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of Arsha> > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. This> > is> > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda Hora,> > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas in> > this> > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, Sounaka> > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha> > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of thought](vii)> > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient> > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in Indianastrology> > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in this> > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course> > there> > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But> > books> > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not> > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single> > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of the> > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for> > research!> > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and reveal the> > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge on> > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,> > unexplored> > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > "TamasomaJyotirgamaya...". Yes, there is a large amount of work> > pending,> > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is> > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their> > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly> > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our search> > for> > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is child's> > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! Let> > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all,> > forthe> > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,Sreenadh> > >> > >> > > ======================================> > >> > >> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Bhadraiah Mallampalli"> > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > >> > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. That> > is> > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give *everything*> > its> > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > >> > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > >> > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the> > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or mathematicians. A> > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by the> > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles and can be> > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > >> > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are not> > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results (we> > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To discard> > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished> > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is stupid.> > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from> > > > Newton's works.> > > >> > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't understand> > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total> > Vedic> > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well,> > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda are> > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in it.> > > >> > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of> > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > inconceivable> > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal> > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted completely> > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of> > > > astrology as a veda.> > > >> > > > Bhadraiah> > > >> > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> >>

I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his generous response.For Shakadvipis, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira

A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of this legend.There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two schools have been created by modern authors. Cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.-VJ , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Vinay ji,> Thanks for the informative post. > ==>> > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a> > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies> > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him> > to be a non-brahmin?> <==> Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the> legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati> Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> ==>> > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> <==> No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument> to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously Tantra> should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?". So I> would be pardened in this case I belive. > ==>> > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> <==> The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of> Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the> Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give more> light about the line of argument:> Chandra> Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf> <Chandra%20\> Hari/Aryabhata%20and%20Jain%20Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf>> > ==>> > Varah> > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even> > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> <==> That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this> information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala" - is> it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name> "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> ==>> > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> <==> OK - Possible.> ==>> > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri> > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> <==> Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to> Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol> worship, temple worship etc.> ==>> > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > poke fun at nirayana system. E> <==> Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak> otherwise.> ==>> > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other> > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even> > in the nirayana school.> <==> Agree.> ==>> > Completely tropical astrology was never> > practised in India by anyone.> <==> Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana> Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to> use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> ==>> > If nirayana system is completely> > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> <==> Agree.> > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that> stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are> thirsty. > > Love and Hugs,> Sreenadh> > , "vinayjhaa16"> vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> >> > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> >> > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a> > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies> > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him> > to be a non-brahmin?> >> > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> >> > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah> > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even> > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> >> > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> >> > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri> > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> >> > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other> > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even> > in the nirayana school.> >> > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :> > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> >> > -VJ> > ============= ================= =====================> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > ==>> > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > tantric astrology?> > > <==> > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati Jayacharya".> > >> > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana> > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> AD)> > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring> to> > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly> the 7> > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala,> > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts> > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam,> > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc]> > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> Jayacharya> > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long> list> > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > Yap,> > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > >> > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from> ancient> > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora,> Surya> > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available> quotes to> > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not> provide> > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or> > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us> go> > > by the datable and available texts.> > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as> > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas> settled> > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved> by> > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and> also> > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > father's> > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that> ends> > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per> Sanskrit> > > dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come> and> > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and> Mihira> > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali> from> > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the> > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain.> Kalyana> > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a> not> > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower -> evidently> > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident> from> > > the quote I provided above.> > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> > Orissa.> > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a> > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > >> > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > >> > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> certainly> > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never> > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > >> > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly> > it was> > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported> by> > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> Parisishta,> > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs> > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well> > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins;> no> > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > Regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > ==>> > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > tantric astrology?> > > > <==> > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act> it.> > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is> scope> > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > Regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > ======================================> > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > Mahatantra=========================================The available> text> > > on> > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and> 160> > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem in the> > > head'.> > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord> > > Siva)> > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra> > > (Medicine)> > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the> > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is> the> > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the> > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> attracting> > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their> > > native> > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc.> Yes,> > > it> > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of> > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem> > > like> > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> branch> > > of> > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing> > > about> > > > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala> Tantra> > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the> > > available> > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use> medicine> > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc.> But> > > we> > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology)> > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> medicine> > > in> > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal> plants> > > are> > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some> secret> > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture.> Tantra> > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been> the> > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in> the> > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]> > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> KalaTantra,> > > we> > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with> > > Kala> > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala> > > Tantra> > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > -"Approaching> > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of> all> > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with> > > folded> > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees> > > please> > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> style> > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from> lord> > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology)> as> > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be> > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> conclusion.> > > As> > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another name for> > > this> > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head" by the> > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > "Like> > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,> > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra -> > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis> even> > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates that> Kala> > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But> that> > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives> a> > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe> > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but> only> > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted> text.> > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be> > > missing.> > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra> is an> > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn> from> > > lord> > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could> be> > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he> might> > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made> use> > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > "In> > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are> present.> > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in> many> > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra> that> > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc)> 'in> > > the> > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> Dattatreya> > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > > (Kala> > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is> Shadkarma> > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge> > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere> > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> hereindicates> > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor> Tantric> > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement> > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra> (Agama)> > > and> > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava> > > Tantra.> > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of> > > Dattatreya> > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him> the> > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial> for> > > the> > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted> state at> > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was> very> > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile.> The> > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and> Puranas> > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and> > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> pain of> > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is> > > becoming> > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> heritage of> > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes> > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas,> first> > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> knowledge> > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true> devotee of> > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does> not> > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One> should> > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and> is> > > a> > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> "Astrology is> > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special> > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this> truth> > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope,> or> > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva).> This> > > is> > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the> form> > > of> > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate> Guru> > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.> > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe> concept> > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > > astrology,> > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept> about> > > the> > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all> > > different> > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and> existed> > > in> > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi> > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a> > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts> such> > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > othercivilization> > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove> > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in> the> > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back> to> > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be> > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> Dattatreya -> > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe> > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> medicine)which> > > is> > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside> the> > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit> with> > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta,> Day,> > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious> muhoorta> > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for> the> > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it> the> > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect> > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these> > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships)" With this advice> lord> > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those> slokas> > > are> > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone> is> > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra> to> > > know> > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> available> > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The> > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva> said:> > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> humanbeings I> > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen" Dwadesa> dala> > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani> > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate> > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe> > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha> chandre> > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete> > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)"From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can> > > have> > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of> > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of> the> > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> planetary> > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in> the> > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti)> > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If> Vedha> > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness,> forJupiter> > > -> > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for> Venus> > > -> > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every> month"> > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> ismentioned> > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha> is> > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu> > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka> was> > > a> > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1)> > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > Chitra--------- > Why it> > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the> > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each> > > square> > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > Chaitra> > > => > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > becalculated,> > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg> > > away> > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2)> Mrityu> > > > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn> mentioned> > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma riksha> janma> > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare", directlymentioning Saturn would> have> > > been> > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning> Saturn> > > and> > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered,> then> > > what> > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha -> Nakshatra> > > > or sign------------------------------ The word> Riksha> > > has> > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha> > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon> > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > > represents> > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both> > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to> > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4)> Vedha> > > > and the related prediction---> > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid> that> > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe> Vedha> > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof> Vedha is> > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha> Vedha> > > in> > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while> > > predicting> > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > Gochara---------------------- This Gochara-Vedha> system> > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase> > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit> should be> > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he> avoided> > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and> Ketu?(6)> > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------> > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho> > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter> a> > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we> > > observe> > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after> > > Sripati> > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the> > > concept> > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra?> > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers> to> > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology> > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify> them> > > into> > > > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period> > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and> allied> > > > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic> > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> Astrology)(v)> > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis> the> > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> wholesecret> > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of> Arsha> > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts.> This> > > is> > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda> Hora,> > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas> in> > > this> > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika,> Sounaka> > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha> > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> thought](vii)> > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient> > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> Indianastrology> > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in> this> > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course> > > there> > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But> > > books> > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not> > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single> > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of> the> > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for> > > research!> > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and reveal> the> > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge on> > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,> > > unexplored> > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > "TamasomaJyotirgamaya...". Yes, there is a large amount of work> > > pending,> > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is> > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their> > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly> > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our> search> > > for> > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is> child's> > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored!> Let> > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all,> > > forthe> > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,Sreenadh> > > >> > > >> > > > ======================================> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > hinducivilization , "Bhadraiah Mallampalli"> > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > >> > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest.> That> > > is> > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> *everything*> > > its> > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > > >> > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the> > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> mathematicians. A> > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by> the> > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles and> can be> > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > >> > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are> not> > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results> (we> > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To> discard> > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished> > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is> stupid.> > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from> > > > > Newton's works.> > > > >> > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> understand> > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total> > > Vedic> > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well,> > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda> are> > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in it.> > > > >> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of> > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > inconceivable> > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal> > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> completely> > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of> > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > >> > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>