nastika and astika

Namaskar kartikji,

Please excuse my ambiguity, it is because english is not my

mothertongue, i didn´t intend to state that Mahacinakrama is nastika

only that the worship of a living Guru is of similar prominence in

both traditions and that he is regarded as the source of the deities

in nastika bauddha tantras as well as in mahacinakrama.

 

Vajrayana and Jain tantra does certainly have a lot in common with

other Schools and there is an overlapping of their practices and

teachings with other astika sampradayas, but this i belive has no

impact on the Question whether the Sampradaya is astika or nastika

doesn´t this depend on the fact whether the tradition elaborates on

the teaching of Veda and upanishad and accepts the pramana of sruti

or not?

It is possible of course that i am misinformend if that is please

correct me, i thought that it is the acceptance of sruti that makes a

sampradaya astika and another nastika.

 

Since i have received instructions and diksha in the sindura mandala

of Vajrayogini acccording to the Vajrayana i can say from my own

experience that this tradition is based entirely on bauddha dharma

for instance it describes kameswari and kameswara as forces of kama

and krodha and as symbols of defilements of ida and pingala Nadi that

have to be subdued and cleansed out of the Nadi system by means of

the Vajrayana Prana Nadi yoga. I guess it would very interesting to

discuss this matter further, and analyse the differences and

similarities between the astika and the bauddha tantras but

unfortunately there are some restrictions on what i can share.

 

Now what is entirely new and surprising to me that there are Kaulas

who think that Vajrayogini is the supreme divinity.

 

Could you be so kind and elaborate on this? What Amnaya or

Sampradaya has Vajrayogini as the central deity?

 

MahaHrada

 

 

 

, kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

wrote:

>

>

>

> namaskar,

>

> Beautiful explanation, just beautiful. However I do have a few

subtle quams with Mahachinachara as you mention it.

> I am not keen in Baudha philosophy, nor am I a practitioner of

their paddhatis, however all I am saying is that to my understanding

Mahachina is Astika, could you please enlighten me as to how it is

seen as Nastika? Here is my take on Mahachina:

>

> Sure if we all readily accept Vidyaranya's take on Bauddha systems

then they most definetly would be considered Nastika. There are many

components of Bauddha systems that are Nastika, but I feel

Mahachinachara is not Nastika in origin and in belief.

>

> My reasoning is simple; Brihannila is one of the few tantras that

actually take Mahachina seriously and is considered as a treatise on

its belief system. Cut out the allusions and direct suggestions of

Mahachina, and you've got your self a standard tantra which cannot be

easily differentiated from other kaula or vAmaNayachAra texts. The

truth of the matter is that it is infact vamanA of the highest

quality. A lot of Shri Vidya texts say that it needed to be brought

into practice since [at their time] a lot of the tantric paths had

stooped into the darker worship systems [as they considered it].

Brihannila is most definetly a ressurection of these alleged darker

worshiping methods, post Shri Vidya establishment.

>

> Brihannila doesnt really make any direct references to Mahachina

being Baudha. Just that Vashista practiced his style of Tara sadhana

in China or somewhere close to it. Its just a system that tries to

come to terms with the origins and the tantra of Neelasaraswati where

her puja gets associated with some of the more orthodox maha vidyas

like Aniruddha Saraswati [Kali, Matangi or Neelapataka, take your

pick], Bhagawati Kai and Bhagawati Tara.

>

> If you see Neelaraswati Vidya you will realize that its a blended

mixture of bijas sacred to Tara [to which Akshobhaya is seer and not

Brahma and Vashista], Kali and Baneshwari

>

> I havent read much of this book because the mantras really are too

difficult to do in my time frame. I already am behind the schedule

given to me by my dear acharyas, yet alone do some devoution on the

side line lol. But so far in my readings of Brihannila [just the

starting two or three paTalas], I havent seen much reference to

Baudha systems.

>

> You also have to consider that Vajrayana holds Vajrayogini has the

highest Diety and that She is the supreme Divine. It is probably

Hinayana and elements of Mahayana where there is question of Nastika.

Of course even Vajrayana raises eyebrows with Hindu Scholars since

they claim their deva chakras killed ours [Heruka killing

Isvara/Shiva and all]. So in essence I think it probably has a very

subjective status, it would depend on who you ask. Many buddhists I

spoke to in India think of Tara as the highest, most absolute truth

and as God. The concept of Bodhisattva to them is purely pedantic. I

havent met any Lamas in my life so I cant really say that I know

their private and intimate takes on Vajrayogini but I am sure that

you will find some who take Her as being the Supreme Divinity that

most Kaulas percieve her to be. Sometimes Scripture and practitioner

dont go hand in hand. Take me, I prefer worshipping Bhagawati in one

of her Nitya forms than as the major Maha Vidya.

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends

http://au.messenger.

>

>

Pranams,

 

This was what I was referring to, the very nature of Baudha is Nastika. That is why I was considering Mahachina not to be baudha in nature, as it includes Vashista as one of the founders of this paraMpara.I am still in the process of reading brihannila, so I dont know much from that angle.

 

The Vajrayana people are strange in that they use one of the olders names of Bhairava [Heruka] as killing the more commonly accepted adjective [ishavara] and they also consider the male consort of Vajrayogini Chakrasamvara [Name of Bhagawan Shankar] and delight in the worship of Mahakala. I guess they incorporated that type of thinking so that they would express their desire to be considered as a different religion. Most definetly Nastika in this respect, and that is why I had doubts about Mahachina being baudha as most say it is. I thought it is Kaula but as practiced in China.

 

As for that Kaula Parampara, they invoke Chinnamasta as the central diety who is considered as Vajrayogini. YOu will fine their parampara alive and well at the bhuwaneshwari peetha at rajasthan. In origin they came from a siddha in Maharastra who made his own parampara after accomplishing Chinnamasta at a very high level. FOr those who invoke Kali as the central diety of liberation, one must invoke Chinnamasta after even doing Tara. She is very high in the sequence of krama and in some cases the last. The Rajasthani schools have her as the alst manifestation of Shakti, as it all returns to Kali from there.

 

Ah, I wish I would dance around with my severed head in my hand. It would cause a nice commotion for my neighbours lol.

 

 

Jaya Jaya Shri Tripura

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

Pranams,

 

This was what I was referring to, the very nature of Baudha is Nastika. That is why I was considering Mahachina not to be baudha in nature, as it includes Vashista as one of the founders of this paraMpara.I am still in the process of reading brihannila, so I dont know much from that angle.

 

The Vajrayana people are strange in that they use one of the olders names of Bhairava [Heruka] as killing the more commonly accepted adjective [ishavara] and they also consider the male consort of Vajrayogini Chakrasamvara [Name of Bhagawan Shankar] and delight in the worship of Mahakala. I guess they incorporated that type of thinking so that they would express their desire to be considered as a different religion. Most definetly Nastika in this respect, and that is why I had doubts about Mahachina being baudha as most say it is. I thought it is Kaula but as practiced in China.

 

As for that Kaula Parampara, they invoke Chinnamasta as the central diety who is considered as Vajrayogini. YOu will fine their parampara alive and well at the bhuwaneshwari peetha at rajasthan. In origin they came from a siddha in Maharastra who made his own parampara after accomplishing Chinnamasta at a very high level. FOr those who invoke Kali as the central diety of liberation, one must invoke Chinnamasta after even doing Tara. She is very high in the sequence of krama and in some cases the last. The Rajasthani schools have her as the alst manifestation of Shakti, as it all returns to Kali from there.

 

Ah, I wish I would dance around with my severed head in my hand. It would cause a nice commotion for my neighbours lol.

 

 

Jaya Jaya Shri Tripura

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

, kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

wrote:

 

>

> Pranams,

>

> This was what I was referring to, the very nature of Baudha is

Nastika. That is why I was considering Mahachina not to be baudha in

nature, as it includes Vashista as one of the founders of this

paraMpara.I am still in the process of reading brihannila, so I dont

know much from that angle.

 

I am not even born in a Hindu community so i am also not the right

person to decide whether Mahacinakrama is belonging to Bauddha Dharma

or whether it is an astika sampradaya.

 

> The Vajrayana people are strange in that they use one of the olders

names of Bhairava [Heruka] as killing the more commonly accepted

adjective [ishavara] and they also consider the male consort of

Vajrayogini Chakrasamvara [Name of Bhagawan Shankar] and delight in

the worship of Mahakala. I guess they incorporated that type of

thinking so that they would express their desire to be considered as

a different religion. Most definetly Nastika in this respect, and

that is why I had doubts about Mahachina being baudha as most say it

is. I thought it is Kaula but as practiced in China.

 

I always leave such decisons and others concering the protocol which

is followed to the Sadhaks and Teachers concernend, and accept their

decison as final but i think that Mahacinakrama is closer to Kaula

than to Vajrayana.

 

>From a scholarly viewpoint i belive there is a borderline where

practices, mantras, Sadhana and Darshanas and the Parampara overlap

and mingle.

 

Many of the Mahasiddhas like Matsyendranath, Gorakshanath

Chauranginath etc are mentioned as founders of both nastika and

astika paramparas. Have these mahasiddhas been buddhists hindus or

something inbetween? I think there is no way to determine that by

scholarly logic and reasoning alone

Even in recent history we have examples of Nath panthis who have

disciples of different religions at the same time and they teach to

each of them the secrets of their own religion, and not try to

convert them, like shankar maharaj did.

Maybe the immortal Mahasiddhas and are beyond any formal religion.

As long as we are mortal it will remain forever a mystery to us why

and how the Bauddha Tantras developed.

Their own explanation why their deities look alike and have similar

names than the Hindus is connected with one or the other story of

either conquest or domination of their siddhas and buddhas over the

devas.

Depending on whether they are practised as protectors of the Lineage

or aspersonal deity they are either subdued and oath bound by the

siddhas and buddhas, or converted of their free will to buddhism, for

instance they belive that Indra converted to Buddhism and is now

protecting buddhas teaching, or have been completly eradicated by

force, as in the case of rudra and their form has been entered by

buddhas-if they are practised as Ishta.

 

Now i could elaborate on this but i think it will mean i´ll be

straying too far from the topic of Shakta Sadhana, since Vajrayana

affinities are closer to the extreme Shaiva Streams like the Kapalika

and Aghor than to any Shakta traditions.

>From the major Vajrayana Tantra cycles the Guhyasamaja, the Hevajra,

the Kalachakra, the chakrasamwara, i hope i didn´t forget one- only

some practicioners of chakrasamwara concentrate on Vajrayogini as the

central deity and thus have shakta affinities.

 

> As for that Kaula Parampara, they invoke Chinnamasta as the central

diety who is considered as Vajrayogini. YOu will fine their parampara

alive and well at the bhuwaneshwari peetha at rajasthan. In origin

they came from a siddha in Maharastra who made his own parampara

after accomplishing Chinnamasta at a very high level. FOr those who

invoke Kali as the central diety of liberation, one must invoke

Chinnamasta after even doing Tara. She is very high in the sequence

of krama and in some cases the last. The Rajasthani schools have her

as the alst manifestation of Shakti, as it all returns to Kali from

there.

>

 

I didn´t know that, this is very interesting, only knew that

Vajrayogini is containend in the Krama of the Nepalese Sarvamnaya

Kaulas,which is no wonder since the Chakrasmawara is the tantra

practiced by the Bauddhist Newar Acharyas of Nepal.

 

MahaHrada

> Ah, I wish I would dance around with my severed head in my hand. It would

> cause a nice commotion for my neighbours lol.

>

>

 

------We already do dance around with our head in our hand, and it's called

being a netizen.

Pranams

 

"I am not even born in a Hindu community so i am also not the right

person to decide whether Mahacinakrama is belonging to Bauddha Dharma

or whether it is an astika sampradaya."

Your birth should not and apparently does not affect your discernment and knowledge. These things supercede birth and religion and such.

 

 

 

"I always leave such decisons and others concering the protocol which

is followed to the Sadhaks and Teachers concernend, and accept their

decison as final but i think that Mahacinakrama is closer to Kaula

than to Vajrayana."

 

Most definetly. This is why I mentioned it to be more so Kaula in practice but only that it was practiced by Vashishta in China, or so the Tantra says..

 

"From a scholarly viewpoint i belive there is a borderline where

practices, mantras, Sadhana and Darshanas and the Parampara overlap

and mingle." -not with madhvacharins they dont lol.

 

"Many of the Mahasiddhas like Matsyendranath, Gorakshanath

Chauranginath etc are mentioned as founders of both nastika and

astika paramparas. Have these mahasiddhas been buddhists hindus or

something inbetween? I think there is no way to determine that by

scholarly logic and reasoning alone

Even in recent history we have examples of Nath panthis who have

disciples of different religions at the same time and they teach to

each of them the secrets of their own religion, and not try to

convert them, like shankar maharaj did.

Maybe the immortal Mahasiddhas and are beyond any formal religion.

As long as we are mortal it will remain forever a mystery to us why

and how the Bauddha Tantras developed.

Their own explanation why their deities look alike and have similar

names than the Hindus is connected with one or the other story of

either conquest or domination of their siddhas and buddhas over the

devas.

Depending on whether they are practised as protectors of the Lineage

or aspersonal deity they are either subdued and oath bound by the

siddhas and buddhas, or converted of their free will to buddhism, for

instance they belive that Indra converted to Buddhism and is now

protecting buddhas teaching, or have been completly eradicated by

force, as in the case of rudra and their form has been entered by

buddhas-if they are practised as Ishta."

 

 

I think the whole history behind Natha Parampara really confuses the living day lights out of me. I am happy with the little I know from Vedantic and philosophical sources such as Vidyaranya and texts such as Tantraloka by Abhinava. The Natha Parampara and indeed branches like uttara kaula parampara and whatever quasi yogic schools make claims to Goraksanatha as their master, I simply respect and keep my distance from. The Natha parampara is still alive and there are a lot of highly accomplished Nathas even in this era. And I agree with you that they probably are beyond most commonly held religions [at least some consider themselves to be] as natha aspirants are vehementlys against conforming to any particular religious creed apart from that taught to them by their masters. They nowadays are now just a large sadhu group such as the Nagas, the Giris and the Puris. Some even consider their origins to be dubious. I care not for I dont plan on joining anything new from what I

already am in.

 

Personally the Natha practices are too difficult for me to undergo, I am happy doing what I am doing. My master would break my knees if he got wind of me wanting to venture off into natha land lol. Mahachina seemed interesting snce it has some similarities with my practices [thus I consider it more kaula than anything]

 

 

"Now i could elaborate on this but i think it will mean i´ll be

straying too far from the topic of Shakta Sadhana, since Vajrayana

affinities are closer to the extreme Shaiva Streams like the Kapalika

and Aghor than to any Shakta traditions.

From the major Vajrayana Tantra cycles the Guhyasamaja, the Hevajra,

the Kalachakra, the chakrasamwara, i hope i didn´t forget one- only

some practicioners of chakrasamwara concentrate on Vajrayogini as the

central deity and thus have shakta affinities."

I say Shiva and Shakti are both fair playing

 

 

 

 

"I didn´t know that, this is very interesting, only knew that

Vajrayogini is containend in the Krama of the Nepalese Sarvamnaya

Kaulas,which is no wonder since the Chakrasmawara is the tantra

practiced by the Bauddhist Newar Acharyas of Nepal."

Not really Vajrayogini per se, more so vajravairochini, or have I said too much. As for as Buddhists tantras are concerned, I cant be bothered reading about them. The little time I have on my hands I'd rather watch T.V and make an attempt to upload nirruttara which is happening at a God awful rate.. The Buddhists I met dont really worship Vajrayogini either [these guys were from vajrayana], the worship and favour the Worship of Tara and the medicine Buddha. So I guess it ends up on individual choice; I know this from personal experience as well

 

 

 

 

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

, kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

wrote:

>

> Pranams

Namaskar Kartikji

>

> "I am not even born in a Hindu community so i am also not the right

> person to decide whether Mahacinakrama is belonging to Bauddha

Dharma

> or whether it is an astika sampradaya."

> Your birth should not and apparently does not affect your

discernment and knowledge. These things supercede birth and religion

and such.

>

 

In this respect i disagree with you, like it is said in an old

english proverb" you cannot turn a pig´s ear into a silk purse, no

matter how hard you try, in the same way a westerner should not judge

on the affairs of the rules of a Community he is an outsider to.

If this happens nonetheless it is because of the Influence of Kali

Yuga. Now if i where to recommend what regulation to follow for a

person born into a hindu community this would only prove my ignorance.

 

>

> "I always leave such decisons and others concering the protocol

which

> is followed to the Sadhaks and Teachers concernend, and accept

their

> decison as final but i think that Mahacinakrama is closer to Kaula

> than to Vajrayana."

>

> Most definetly. This is why I mentioned it to be more so Kaula in

practice but only that it was practiced by Vashishta in China, or so

the Tantra says.

I agree with that only to be fair one must mention that in mahachina

which includes mongolia the influence of Vajrayana was preeminent,

that is why there are cross influences.

>

> "From a scholarly viewpoint i belive there is a borderline where

> practices, mantras, Sadhana and Darshanas and the Parampara

>overlap

> and mingle." -not with madhvacharins they dont lol.

of course i meant inbetween astika and nastika "tantric" paramparas.

>

> "Many of the Mahasiddhas like Matsyendranath, Gorakshanath

> Chauranginath etc are mentioned as founders of both nastika and

> astika paramparas. Have these mahasiddhas been buddhists hindus or

> something inbetween? I think there is no way to determine that by

> scholarly logic and reasoning alone

> Even in recent history we have examples of Nath panthis who have

> disciples of different religions at the same time and they teach

to

> each of them the secrets of their own religion, and not try to

> convert them, like shankar maharaj did.

> Maybe the immortal Mahasiddhas and are beyond any formal religion.

> As long as we are mortal it will remain forever a mystery to us

why

> and how the Bauddha Tantras developed.

> Their own explanation why their deities look alike and have

similar

> names than the Hindus is connected with one or the other story of

> either conquest or domination of their siddhas and buddhas over

the

> devas.

> Depending on whether they are practised as protectors of the

Lineage

> or aspersonal deity they are either subdued and oath bound by the

> siddhas and buddhas, or converted of their free will to buddhism,

for

> instance they belive that Indra converted to Buddhism and is now

> protecting buddhas teaching, or have been completly eradicated by

> force, as in the case of rudra and their form has been entered by

> buddhas-if they are practised as Ishta."

>

>

> I think the whole history behind Natha Parampara really confuses

the living day lights out of me. I am happy with the little I know

from Vedantic and philosophical sources such as Vidyaranya and texts

such as Tantraloka by Abhinava. The Natha Parampara and indeed

branches like uttara kaula parampara and whatever quasi yogic schools

make claims to Goraksanatha as their master, I simply respect and

keep my distance from.

That is indeed a very wise decision, even the devas can´t handle

them, kartikeyya had fits of anger while studying their shastras and

eventually threw them in the sea. After that incident Matsyendra cut

them out of the belly of a fish, soaking wet i guess and ruinend, now

i ask you what good can come out of the throbbing belly of a fish?

 

The Natha parampara is still alive and there are a lot of highly

accomplished Nathas even in this era. And I agree with you that they

probably are beyond most commonly held religions [at least some

consider themselves to be] as natha aspirants are vehementlys against

conforming to any particular religious creed apart from that taught

to them by their masters. They nowadays are now just a large sadhu

group such as the Nagas, the Giris and the Puris. Some even consider

their origins to be dubious.

I agree with that but worse as far as my experience goes, though they

have siddhis, most of them show a mad and erratic behaviour, maybe

still the curse from kartikeyya.

 

>I care not for I dont plan on joining anything new from what I

> already am in.

>

> Personally the Natha practices are too difficult for me to undergo,

I am happy doing what I am doing. My master would break my knees if

he got wind of me wanting to venture off into natha land lol.

 

Hehe i bet he is already looking forward to that! It is a shame that

we are living in a time where Matsyendra is also the Yuga Guru for

all Kaula Sampradayas. Last Yuga definetly was more smooth with

Khagendranath in that position.

 

Mahachina seemed interesting snce it has some similarities with my

practices [thus I consider it more kaula than anything]

 

Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana after

one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

 

>

>

> "Now i could elaborate on this but i think it will mean i´ll be

> straying too far from the topic of Shakta Sadhana, since

Vajrayana

> affinities are closer to the extreme Shaiva Streams like the

Kapalika

> and Aghor than to any Shakta traditions.

> From the major Vajrayana Tantra cycles the Guhyasamaja, the

Hevajra,

> the Kalachakra, the chakrasamwara, i hope i didn´t forget one-

only

> some practicioners of chakrasamwara concentrate on Vajrayogini as

the

> central deity and thus have shakta affinities."

> I say Shiva and Shakti are both fair playing

>

>

>

>

> "I didn´t know that, this is very interesting, only knew that

> Vajrayogini is containend in the Krama of the Nepalese Sarvamnaya

> Kaulas,which is no wonder since the Chakrasmawara is the tantra

> practiced by the Bauddhist Newar Acharyas of Nepal."

 

> Not really Vajrayogini per se, more so vajravairochini, or have I

said too much. As for as Buddhists tantras are concerned, I cant be

bothered reading about them. The little time I have on my hands I'd

rather watch T.V.

 

Vajra Yogini, Vajra Vairochani, Vajra Dakini, Vajra Varahi, even

Nairatma not much difference.

 

Again a very wise decison, i can say that again from my own

experience, neither with the Nath parampara nor with the Vayrajana

your both that could have been spent better watching some TV.

Now i hope that is not Guru Nindha but one gets wiser with age,

hopefully.

 

and make an attempt to upload nirruttara which is happening at a God

awful rate. The Buddhists I met dont really worship Vajrayogini

either [these guys were from vajrayana], the worship and favour the

Worship of Tara and the medicine Buddha.

So I guess it ends up on individual choice; I know this from personal

experience as well

 

Maybe for some lay followers but if you wan´t to practcie the higher

teachings and want to go places, at least if you are not into the old

school, i.e, dzog-chen you have top practice one of the higher Tantra

cycles i mentioned.

 

MahaHrada

Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana after

one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

 

-----cool. like more info.

"In this respect i disagree with you, like it is said in an old

english proverb" you cannot turn a pig´s ear into a silk purse, no

matter how hard you try, in the same way a westerner should not judge

on the affairs of the rules of a Community he is an outsider to.

If this happens nonetheless it is because of the Influence of Kali

Yuga. Now if i where to recommend what regulation to follow for a

person born into a hindu community this would only prove my ignorance."

I guess there are people who give a damn about race and creed. I am born in a family steeped in tradition, but I gave ahouti to my yagnopavita a long time ago. So we pretty much are in the same boat.

 

"

> and how the Bauddha Tantras developed.

> Their own explanation why their deities look alike and have

similar

> names than the Hindus is connected with one or the other story of

> either conquest or domination of their siddhas and buddhas over

the

> devas.

> Depending on whether they are practised as protectors of the

Lineage

> or aspersonal deity they are either subdued and oath bound by the

> siddhas and buddhas, or converted of their free will to buddhism,

for

> instance they belive that Indra converted to Buddhism and is now

> protecting buddhas teaching, or have been completly eradicated by

> force, as in the case of rudra and their form has been entered by

> buddhas-if they are practised as Ishta."

Yeah Heruka [one of the kula bhairavas] killed Ishvara [One of the names of Shiva I guess]... I still laugh when I read such things in Vajrayana tradition. I mean a lot of Hindus might get offended, but I just find it humorous. Vajrayana pretty much is verbatim of many preeminent Tantric traditions, however they tend to have broken sanskrit mantras. As the 100 names of Goddess Bagalamukhi has "baudha pAkhanDa vinAshini" so the contemporary Hindu tantras also reclaimed what is rightfully Hindu and also launched an aggressive attack on the Buddhists.

 

"

That is indeed a very wise decision, even the devas can´t handle

them, kartikeyya had fits of anger while studying their shastras and

eventually threw them in the sea. After that incident Matsyendra cut

them out of the belly of a fish, soaking wet i guess and ruinend, now

i ask you what good can come out of the throbbing belly of a fish?"

Sources of Skandha cosmology, tantra and mythology is also not very nice. Skandha purana and markandeya purana I think went through severe censorship. There were portions of MP that were recorded in some older Chandi tantras [not in sanskrit] that had more references to Vama. Considering that Skandha is one of the major itihAsa sources of shaiva devoution you'd think it would have more references to Shaiva tantra. In reality I havent found a single source which has kumAra tantra down to a tee. I havent been given any serious diksha in Kumara, just one mantropadesha, as anga devata to another major vidya.

 

"I agree with that but worse as far as my experience goes, though they

have siddhis, most of them show a mad and erratic behaviour, maybe

still the curse from kartikeyya."

I have a friend who lives closeby to a Natha center. It is an old temple to a Natha who is considered maha siddha by them. He was telling me that they're just a bunch of homos who like smoking pot. His words not mine. LOL I am just perpetuating the ninda. As far as siddhis are concerned, they arent very hard to get. Its just that with that much time and effort one can achieve a lot more useful things. We dont need siddhis to propel ourselves in our sadhanas. We use a more watered down approach in these areas lol.

 

 

"Hehe i bet he is already looking forward to that! It is a shame that

we are living in a time where Matsyendra is also the Yuga Guru for

all Kaula Sampradayas. Last Yuga definetly was more smooth with

Khagendranath in that position."

 

I thought he was limited to Uttara Kaula tradition only, ah well, you live, you learn. Anyways we always have Aadi Natha as the supreme master, and he is only preecded by shakti. We care only for Shiva and Shakti, as well as one's immediate master. Our Parampara has more fact than fiction, thanks to the last 35 Nathas of it.

 

 

"Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana after

one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

virgin mary engaged in maithuna."

We have to use some of the yogic mudras in dhyana to devatas such as Tara. Some people cant master them fast enough, so they supplement their dhyana with special argha. These dont make you hallucinate, they just allow you to concentrate a lot better. You have to loose though and concept of body before you go further into ugra tara sadhana. The krodha bija is only siddha when it is contemplated upon without constraints of Ahamkara and the limitations of the individual's chit shakti. One must find union of Bhagawati before the krodha bija reveals itself to the practitioner in its true form. Many kaula tantras have a specific dhyana for this bija that comes out of this form of experience. Instead of "imagining" the dhyana one should aim to experience it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

Very educative and interesting discussion. Where is the Bhuvaneswari peetham in Rajasthan? I would like to know something more about it. Rajasthan has continuity of tradition. Though the rulers of Princely states like Mewar were subdued by Mughal/British, they were then mostly left alone. These states were a sanctuary and various forms of Hindu/Jain schools could continue their tradition in safety and isolation. It is the right place to search for answers to some basic questions.

 

mahahradanatha <mahahradanatha > wrote: , kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

wrote:

 

>

> Pranams,

>

> This was what I was referring to, the very nature of Baudha is

Nastika. That is why I was considering Mahachina not to be baudha in

nature, as it includes Vashista as one of the founders of this

paraMpara.I am still in the process of reading brihannila, so I dont

know much from that angle.

 

I am not even born in a Hindu community so i am also not the right

person to decide whether Mahacinakrama is belonging to Bauddha Dharma

or whether it is an astika sampradaya.

 

> The Vajrayana people are strange in that they use one of the olders

names of Bhairava [Heruka] as killing the more commonly accepted

adjective [ishavara] and they also consider the male consort of

Vajrayogini Chakrasamvara [Name of Bhagawan Shankar] and delight in

the worship of Mahakala. I guess they incorporated that type of

thinking so that they would express their desire to be considered as

a different religion. Most definetly Nastika in this respect, and

that is why I had doubts about Mahachina being baudha as most say it

is. I thought it is Kaula but as practiced in China.

 

I always leave such decisons and others concering the protocol which

is followed to the Sadhaks and Teachers concernend, and accept their

decison as final but i think that Mahacinakrama is closer to Kaula

than to Vajrayana.

 

>From a scholarly viewpoint i belive there is a borderline where

practices, mantras, Sadhana and Darshanas and the Parampara overlap

and mingle.

 

Many of the Mahasiddhas like Matsyendranath, Gorakshanath

Chauranginath etc are mentioned as founders of both nastika and

astika paramparas. Have these mahasiddhas been buddhists hindus or

something inbetween? I think there is no way to determine that by

scholarly logic and reasoning alone

Even in recent history we have examples of Nath panthis who have

disciples of different religions at the same time and they teach to

each of them the secrets of their own religion, and not try to

convert them, like shankar maharaj did.

Maybe the immortal Mahasiddhas and are beyond any formal religion.

As long as we are mortal it will remain forever a mystery to us why

and how the Bauddha Tantras developed.

Their own explanation why their deities look alike and have similar

names than the Hindus is connected with one or the other story of

either conquest or domination of their siddhas and buddhas over the

devas.

Depending on whether they are practised as protectors of the Lineage

or aspersonal deity they are either subdued and oath bound by the

siddhas and buddhas, or converted of their free will to buddhism, for

instance they belive that Indra converted to Buddhism and is now

protecting buddhas teaching, or have been completly eradicated by

force, as in the case of rudra and their form has been entered by

buddhas-if they are practised as Ishta.

 

Now i could elaborate on this but i think it will mean i´ll be

straying too far from the topic of Shakta Sadhana, since Vajrayana

affinities are closer to the extreme Shaiva Streams like the Kapalika

and Aghor than to any Shakta traditions.

>From the major Vajrayana Tantra cycles the Guhyasamaja, the Hevajra,

the Kalachakra, the chakrasamwara, i hope i didn´t forget one- only

some practicioners of chakrasamwara concentrate on Vajrayogini as the

central deity and thus have shakta affinities.

 

> As for that Kaula Parampara, they invoke Chinnamasta as the central

diety who is considered as Vajrayogini. YOu will fine their parampara

alive and well at the bhuwaneshwari peetha at rajasthan. In origin

they came from a siddha in Maharastra who made his own parampara

after accomplishing Chinnamasta at a very high level. FOr those who

invoke Kali as the central diety of liberation, one must invoke

Chinnamasta after even doing Tara. She is very high in the sequence

of krama and in some cases the last. The Rajasthani schools have her

as the alst manifestation of Shakti, as it all returns to Kali from

there.

>

 

I didn´t know that, this is very interesting, only knew that

Vajrayogini is containend in the Krama of the Nepalese Sarvamnaya

Kaulas,which is no wonder since the Chakrasmawara is the tantra

practiced by the Bauddhist Newar Acharyas of Nepal.

 

MahaHrada

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

, "llundrub" <llundrub

wrote:

>

>

> Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

> close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

> Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana

after

> one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

> virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

>

> -----cool. like more info.

 

Check out theories about the nature of the vedic soma plant-juice.

But our friend Kartikji says there is only some mild sedative in the

Argha in his tradition. Interesting to hear,...our learning never

stops. My guess was that the Mahacinakramalatasadhana apart from the

soothing mixture may use one of the world strongest psychoactive

substances that can explode your Ajna chakra. In the Mahacinakrama

Tantra there are only the usual suspects, alcohol,ganja,and a massala

of some other herbs, mentionend but as you know they are all so

secretive and didn´t write the main ingredients down, IMO what is

written is only the starter mix, to soothe you so that you won´t go

completly bananas when the hard core stuff is applied. Now i will

rather go and swallow a live toad than believe that Mahacinakrama

uses/used only a soothing mixture,--- this tradition is infamous for

its wild and dangerous partys but many went bananas long ago and

maybe only a few adherents of this systems are left, if any at all.

But how can i say from germany? Maybe some people from the indian

community know if there are still some adepts left of the

Mahacinakrama and at what pitha they meet? to have an updatewd map

of pithas would be nice.

 

MahaHradaNatha

Fascinating stuff and gives one at least hope that there are sacrednessess

which are not ravaged with time and excess.

 

 

-

"mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha >

<>

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:04 PM

Re: nastika and astika

 

 

, "llundrub" <llundrub

wrote:

>

>

> Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

> close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

> Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana

after

> one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

> virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

>

> -----cool. like more info.

 

Check out theories about the nature of the vedic soma plant-juice.

But our friend Kartikji says there is only some mild sedative in the

Argha in his tradition. Interesting to hear,...our learning never

stops. My guess was that the Mahacinakramalatasadhana apart from the

soothing mixture may use one of the world strongest psychoactive

substances that can explode your Ajna chakra. In the Mahacinakrama

Tantra there are only the usual suspects, alcohol,ganja,and a massala

of some other herbs, mentionend but as you know they are all so

secretive and didn´t write the main ingredients down, IMO what is

written is only the starter mix, to soothe you so that you won´t go

completly bananas when the hard core stuff is applied. Now i will

rather go and swallow a live toad than believe that Mahacinakrama

uses/used only a soothing mixture,--- this tradition is infamous for

its wild and dangerous partys but many went bananas long ago and

maybe only a few adherents of this systems are left, if any at all.

But how can i say from germany? Maybe some people from the indian

community know if there are still some adepts left of the

Mahacinakrama and at what pitha they meet? to have an updatewd map

of pithas would be nice.

 

MahaHradaNatha

Namaskar,

 

You need not swallow a live toad lol, as far I am know our parampara [which thankfully is not mahachina] do not use any hallucinogenic substances. Some of the contemporary gurus were MDs and ayurvedic specialists as well so its a recent advent that reliance of ayurveda has increased. I dont think it was like that, say maybe 85 years ago. I am personally of the opinion that the simpler one's worship the easier it is to get through to her. Never liked complicating situations more than what was required.

 

 

I think it would be prudent to invoke karna pishAchini or ghaTa saraswati and ask them for these things, if you want them

 

Jaya PaipplAda Jaya Jaya Tripura

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

Now this biochemistry might interest you also i guess i mentionend

this quite awhile ago, but not explicitly.

since i don´t know what was/is containend in the argha of the

Mahacinakrama i will rest this mystery and turn to the other i know

more about: what happens bio-chemically during retreats in complete

darkness or caves like those dark retreats done in dzog-chen?

 

The result of prolonged Darkness is inhibiting Monoaminoxidase

resulting in Melatonin production and the natural occuring

decomposing of serotonin is stopped and serotonin/melatonin/pinoline

and 5-MeOTryp. is gradully synthetisized resulting eventually in the

synthesis of a most powerful psychoactive tryptamin molecule in the

pineal gland, in the mid brain region about after the 8th day amd

onward in complete darkness.

 

the synthesis ocurs in phases:

high melatonin levels Day 1-3

high pinoline levels day 3-5

high 5-MeO Trypt. levels day 6-8 s

finally dmt synthesis after day 9 onwards.

 

(btw ganja or charas is rising melatonin levels up a 1000 times

providing enough raw material for the synthesis of enlightment

molecule)

 

 

 

, "llundrub" <llundrub

wrote:

>

> Fascinating stuff and gives one at least hope that there are

sacrednessess

> which are not ravaged with time and excess.

>

>

> -

> "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha

> <>

> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:04 PM

> Re: nastika and astika

>

>

> , "llundrub" <llundrub@>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

> > close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

> > Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana

> after

> > one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

> > virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

> >

> > -----cool. like more info.

>

> Check out theories about the nature of the vedic soma plant-juice.

> But our friend Kartikji says there is only some mild sedative in the

> Argha in his tradition. Interesting to hear,...our learning never

> stops. My guess was that the Mahacinakramalatasadhana apart from

the

> soothing mixture may use one of the world strongest psychoactive

> substances that can explode your Ajna chakra. In the Mahacinakrama

> Tantra there are only the usual suspects, alcohol,ganja,and a

massala

> of some other herbs, mentionend but as you know they are all so

> secretive and didn´t write the main ingredients down, IMO what is

> written is only the starter mix, to soothe you so that you won´t go

> completly bananas when the hard core stuff is applied. Now i will

> rather go and swallow a live toad than believe that Mahacinakrama

> uses/used only a soothing mixture,--- this tradition is infamous

for

> its wild and dangerous partys but many went bananas long ago and

> maybe only a few adherents of this systems are left, if any at all.

> But how can i say from germany? Maybe some people from the indian

> community know if there are still some adepts left of the

> Mahacinakrama and at what pitha they meet? to have an updatewd map

> of pithas would be nice.

>

> MahaHradaNatha

>

>

>

>

>

Namaste,

 

 

I

You must have lived for a long time! The DMT theory is pretty much well known thanks to some tibetain systems and research on south america and mexican mystics who say pineal is highest chakra; or at least make reference to it. DMT itself is moderately easy to synthesize from indole based pigments...lol big clues are landing down here and is truly tried and tested by many veterans. But to be honest I never saw the phases as you mentioned it, many thanks for that! Really appreicated.

 

The synthesis can most definetly be done in the backyard because HPLC of catalyzed routes suggest very little toxicity of the substance to major organs like liver and kidneys;the brain is a different story lol. Another big problem is anything that screws up melatonin cycles tend to also stuff up the immune system.

I think you will find tobago to be more useful, the pathway for its actvity is totally different but its far more effective than DMT; they say the sprit soars outside the body once it is taken, I agree and that is why I wouldnt try it myself. I saw a documentary of someone drinking cacti tea which had DMT in it, it really didnt do them much good. So I suggest that the whole process of siddha is not so much stooped physiologically as it is spiritually. To emphasize this point the first sadhanas I was personally told to do was to invoke yakshinis and shakinis. I was a skeptic and so it the all nighter sadhans were deadly boring however the results were very promising. I have to believe in the fact that the spiritual element supercedes the physical in these contexts.

However, that does not mean that there is a mantra that can possibly cure aids or cancer.If there is then I obviously dont know about it. And that is the reason why I think its good to sometimes partition the spritual with the scientific, both if differentiated can yield better results then if they are fused together. Their aims are different, spritual practices imo are more internalzied and scientific study is more externalized. One is subjective and the other objective. Like Kapila suggested that to explain any given physical phenomena is to address it from two major contexts the Purusha and the Prakriti. Both frames of reference tend to be different.

 

My personal opinion was to master some yogic mudras than risk damaging my precious internal organs with strange mixtures. This why I personally exercise caution against most things that go off a tangent from coffee and tea. THey are enough for me lol.

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

Bam Bam Sankar

 

 

-

"mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha >

<>

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:52 PM

Re: nastika and astika

 

 

Now this biochemistry might interest you also i guess i mentionend

this quite awhile ago, but not explicitly.

since i don´t know what was/is containend in the argha of the

Mahacinakrama i will rest this mystery and turn to the other i know

more about: what happens bio-chemically during retreats in complete

darkness or caves like those dark retreats done in dzog-chen?

 

The result of prolonged Darkness is inhibiting Monoaminoxidase

resulting in Melatonin production and the natural occuring

decomposing of serotonin is stopped and serotonin/melatonin/pinoline

and 5-MeOTryp. is gradully synthetisized resulting eventually in the

synthesis of a most powerful psychoactive tryptamin molecule in the

pineal gland, in the mid brain region about after the 8th day amd

onward in complete darkness.

 

the synthesis ocurs in phases:

high melatonin levels Day 1-3

high pinoline levels day 3-5

high 5-MeO Trypt. levels day 6-8 s

finally dmt synthesis after day 9 onwards.

 

(btw ganja or charas is rising melatonin levels up a 1000 times

providing enough raw material for the synthesis of enlightment

molecule)

 

 

 

, "llundrub" <llundrub

wrote:

>

> Fascinating stuff and gives one at least hope that there are

sacrednessess

> which are not ravaged with time and excess.

>

>

> -

> "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha

> <>

> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:04 PM

> Re: nastika and astika

>

>

> , "llundrub" <llundrub@>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Now i don´t know what you are practising but it sound fun if it is

> > close to Mahacinakrama, what i gather from the concerned tantras,

> > Mahacinakramas latasadhana was a rather pharmacological sadhana

> after

> > one spoon from their Arghya i guess the pope would see jesus and

> > virgin mary engaged in maithuna.

> >

> > -----cool. like more info.

>

> Check out theories about the nature of the vedic soma plant-juice.

> But our friend Kartikji says there is only some mild sedative in the

> Argha in his tradition. Interesting to hear,...our learning never

> stops. My guess was that the Mahacinakramalatasadhana apart from

the

> soothing mixture may use one of the world strongest psychoactive

> substances that can explode your Ajna chakra. In the Mahacinakrama

> Tantra there are only the usual suspects, alcohol,ganja,and a

massala

> of some other herbs, mentionend but as you know they are all so

> secretive and didn´t write the main ingredients down, IMO what is

> written is only the starter mix, to soothe you so that you won´t go

> completly bananas when the hard core stuff is applied. Now i will

> rather go and swallow a live toad than believe that Mahacinakrama

> uses/used only a soothing mixture,--- this tradition is infamous

for

> its wild and dangerous partys but many went bananas long ago and

> maybe only a few adherents of this systems are left, if any at all.

> But how can i say from germany? Maybe some people from the indian

> community know if there are still some adepts left of the

> Mahacinakrama and at what pitha they meet? to have an updatewd map

> of pithas would be nice.

>

> MahaHradaNatha

>

>

>

>

>

Namaste

i think you misunderstood my posting, i was not talking about

ingesting any external substance, i was talking about the reaction

of the body chemistry when a person is subjected to a prolonged

period of complete darkness, as it is done in some tantra systems

like in dzog-chen teachings or Kalachakra where it is done during so

called completion stage Yoga sadhana.

 

The phases of synthetisation do happen inside the Body until after

the 9 Day of retreat in darkness the pineal gland returns to the

active state of childhood before it calcified and will itself again

exude pure dmt because by the effect of a long period of darkness the

inhibiory substances that developed during adulthood are not produced

anymore in the Body. Waht i was saying is that should our friend

llundrub practice dzog chen dark retreat he needs no external

substances he can produce them in his body.

 

MahaHrada

 

, kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

wrote:

 

> Namaste,

 

> You must have lived for a long time! The DMT theory is pretty much

well known thanks to some tibetain systems and research on south

america and mexican mystics who say pineal is highest chakra; or at

least make reference to it. DMT itself is moderately easy to

synthesize from indole based pigments...lol big clues are landing

down here and is truly tried and tested by many veterans. But to be

honest I never saw the phases as you mentioned it, many thanks for

that! Really appreicated.

 

>

> The synthesis can most definetly be done in the backyard because

HPLC of catalyzed routes suggest very little toxicity of the

substance to major organs like liver and kidneys;the brain is a

different story lol. Another big problem is anything that screws up

melatonin cycles tend to also stuff up the immune system.

 

> I think you will find tobago to be more useful, the pathway for its

actvity is totally different but its far more effective than DMT;

they say the sprit soars outside the body once it is taken, I agree

and that is why I wouldnt try it myself. I saw a documentary of

someone drinking cacti tea which had DMT in it, it really didnt do

them much good. So I suggest that the whole process of siddha is not

so much stooped physiologically as it is spiritually.

To emphasize this point the first sadhanas I was personally told to

do was to invoke yakshinis and shakinis. I was a skeptic and so it

the all nighter sadhans were deadly boring however the results were

very promising. I have to believe in the fact that the spiritual

element supercedes the physical in these contexts.

> However, that does not mean that there is a mantra that can

possibly cure aids or cancer.If there is then I obviously dont know

about it. And that is the reason why I think its good to sometimes

partition the spritual with the scientific, both if differentiated

can yield better results then if they are fused together. Their aims

are different, spritual practices imo are more internalzied and

scientific study is more externalized. One is subjective and the

other objective. Like Kapila suggested that to explain any given

physical phenomena is to address it from two major contexts the

Purusha and the Prakriti. Both frames of reference tend to be

different.

>

> My personal opinion was to master some yogic mudras than risk

damaging my precious internal organs with strange mixtures. This why

I personally exercise caution against most things that go off a

tangent from coffee and tea. THey are enough for me lol.

Thanks Kartik for interest views, as always, ever since you talked about

your experience about 7 years ago was it with Yashini fire ceremony, or was

that someone else. I imagine that there are plenty of interesting mystics

walking around nowadays through the aupices of Sri Dutt RIP also, due to his

popularizing all sorts of tantras and giving diksha camps in all sorts of

prayogas. But cacti teas are phenethylamines like mescaline and DMT is a

tryptamine, these are the two categories of known mind alterers along with

piperol substances, for the most part. Of course in the woprld who is to say

what also exists. I personally like the extinct Sarcostemia brevifolia for

soma theory because it's like ephedra which may produce more coherence

during meditation if one has the metabolism for it, in the sense of making

one more awake inside. I suppose that the actuial soma plant however, which

has been described to me as a plant which gains a leaf every day during the

waxing moon, and only a small spot left ion the world or so said Maharishi's

Mahesh's old Ayurvedic physician Balraj Maharishi RIP. So I am always on the

lookout for any tips as it sure would make sadhana easy to have a real

excellent mind not alterer but supporter. Drugs are not normally used in

the Vajrayana except for a few sects who initiate with a drink of

brugmansias or daturas, which as most know contain scopalamine and

hyoscyamine and atropine which all is good for toning the colon and inner

organs but the worst possible thing for the mind. The purpose of this

experience is to show how mind creates its own maya which is also the

purpose of the yangthi or Dzogchen dark retreat the whole point being not

just to have clarity but to understand ignorance. Buddhist visionary

experience therefore is not reifying like the Amerindian dreamquest. Hope

peeps can read these rambles I'm really rushed today.

 

 

-

"kartik gaurav" <omkaaraya .au>

<>

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:33 PM

Re: Re: nastika and astika

 

 

>

>

>

> Namaste,

>

>

> I

> You must have lived for a long time! The DMT theory is pretty much well

> known thanks to some tibetain systems and research on south america and

> mexican mystics who say pineal is highest chakra; or at least make

> reference to it. DMT itself is moderately easy to synthesize from indole

> based pigments...lol big clues are landing down here and is truly tried

> and tested by many veterans. But to be honest I never saw the phases as

> you mentioned it, many thanks for that! Really appreicated.

>

> The synthesis can most definetly be done in the backyard because HPLC of

> catalyzed routes suggest very little toxicity of the substance to major

> organs like liver and kidneys;the brain is a different story lol. Another

> big problem is anything that screws up melatonin cycles tend to also stuff

> up the immune system.

> I think you will find tobago to be more useful, the pathway for its

> actvity is totally different but its far more effective than DMT; they say

> the sprit soars outside the body once it is taken, I agree and that is why

> I wouldnt try it myself. I saw a documentary of someone drinking cacti

> tea which had DMT in it, it really didnt do them much good. So I suggest

> that the whole process of siddha is not so much stooped physiologically as

> it is spiritually. To emphasize this point the first sadhanas I was

> personally told to do was to invoke yakshinis and shakinis. I was a

> skeptic and so it the all nighter sadhans were deadly boring however the

> results were very promising. I have to believe in the fact that the

> spiritual element supercedes the physical in these contexts.

> However, that does not mean that there is a mantra that can possibly cure

> aids or cancer.If there is then I obviously dont know about it. And that

> is the reason why I think its good to sometimes partition the spritual

> with the scientific, both if differentiated can yield better results then

> if they are fused together. Their aims are different, spritual practices

> imo are more internalzied and scientific study is more externalized. One

> is subjective and the other objective. Like Kapila suggested that to

> explain any given physical phenomena is to address it from two major

> contexts the Purusha and the Prakriti. Both frames of reference tend to be

> different.

>

> My personal opinion was to master some yogic mudras than risk damaging my

> precious internal organs with strange mixtures. This why I personally

> exercise caution against most things that go off a tangent from coffee and

> tea. THey are enough for me lol.

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

>

>

I don't need yangti, but thanks for the suggestion, there are two places one

run by ChNN and the other by Tenzin Wangyal, Mass, and Col, USA

respectively. I mean, it's not like I don't need yangti, but not to get the

DMT flowing as have been in the midst of vision for many years. Probably due

to too much ganja in ther first place because ganja coupled with steady

practice really becomes quite powerful sadhana as MJ helps release tension

and slow the thinking so as to allow vision more to develop. Of course this

is not taught, too bad, there's not too much wrong with it. Have also used

the others all to their culmination in their enthnobotanical though not pure

forms. They are good, at showing how the mind develops petulant and personal

notions of mine and so on which considering the constant nature of change

which is not owned by anyone really owns all things. Hence praise Mahakali,

and we know She allows such things as they are merely the opulence of Her

form. Praise Her. Yes. MJ is the pubic form of consciousness for this

planet, of Bhudevi. Sorry I get a bit devotional, MJ will do that. One can

acheive the same result as yangti with just their mind and thought alone if

they have sufficient clarity, in sadhana. Yangti just another skillful

means. Developed the pineal with the two year headache sitting in Maharishi

Patanjali Golden Domes .

 

-

"mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha >

<>

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:27 AM

Re: nastika and astika

 

 

> Namaste

> i think you misunderstood my posting, i was not talking about

> ingesting any external substance, i was talking about the reaction

> of the body chemistry when a person is subjected to a prolonged

> period of complete darkness, as it is done in some tantra systems

> like in dzog-chen teachings or Kalachakra where it is done during so

> called completion stage Yoga sadhana.

>

> The phases of synthetisation do happen inside the Body until after

> the 9 Day of retreat in darkness the pineal gland returns to the

> active state of childhood before it calcified and will itself again

> exude pure dmt because by the effect of a long period of darkness the

> inhibiory substances that developed during adulthood are not produced

> anymore in the Body. Waht i was saying is that should our friend

> llundrub practice dzog chen dark retreat he needs no external

> substances he can produce them in his body.

>

> MahaHrada

>

> , kartik gaurav <omkaaraya

> wrote:

>

>> Namaste,

>

>> You must have lived for a long time! The DMT theory is pretty much

> well known thanks to some tibetain systems and research on south

> america and mexican mystics who say pineal is highest chakra; or at

> least make reference to it. DMT itself is moderately easy to

> synthesize from indole based pigments...lol big clues are landing

> down here and is truly tried and tested by many veterans. But to be

> honest I never saw the phases as you mentioned it, many thanks for

> that! Really appreicated.

>

>>

>> The synthesis can most definetly be done in the backyard because

> HPLC of catalyzed routes suggest very little toxicity of the

> substance to major organs like liver and kidneys;the brain is a

> different story lol. Another big problem is anything that screws up

> melatonin cycles tend to also stuff up the immune system.

>

>> I think you will find tobago to be more useful, the pathway for its

> actvity is totally different but its far more effective than DMT;

> they say the sprit soars outside the body once it is taken, I agree

> and that is why I wouldnt try it myself. I saw a documentary of

> someone drinking cacti tea which had DMT in it, it really didnt do

> them much good. So I suggest that the whole process of siddha is not

> so much stooped physiologically as it is spiritually.

> To emphasize this point the first sadhanas I was personally told to

> do was to invoke yakshinis and shakinis. I was a skeptic and so it

> the all nighter sadhans were deadly boring however the results were

> very promising. I have to believe in the fact that the spiritual

> element supercedes the physical in these contexts.

>> However, that does not mean that there is a mantra that can

> possibly cure aids or cancer.If there is then I obviously dont know

> about it. And that is the reason why I think its good to sometimes

> partition the spritual with the scientific, both if differentiated

> can yield better results then if they are fused together. Their aims

> are different, spritual practices imo are more internalzied and

> scientific study is more externalized. One is subjective and the

> other objective. Like Kapila suggested that to explain any given

> physical phenomena is to address it from two major contexts the

> Purusha and the Prakriti. Both frames of reference tend to be

> different.

>>

>> My personal opinion was to master some yogic mudras than risk

> damaging my precious internal organs with strange mixtures. This why

> I personally exercise caution against most things that go off a

> tangent from coffee and tea. THey are enough for me lol.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Not that i wanted to actually suggest any course of action to you

except to state my opinion that all relevant substances exist within,

since i know you are close to dzogchen i thought this bit of bio

chemistry might interest you. What exists without exists within.

 

, "llundrub" <llundrub

wrote:

>

> I don't need yangti, but thanks for the suggestion, there are two

places one

> run by ChNN and the other by Tenzin Wangyal, Mass, and Col, USA

> respectively. I mean, it's not like I don't need yangti, but not to

get the

> DMT flowing as have been in the midst of vision for many years.

Probably due

> to too much ganja in ther first place because ganja coupled with

steady

> practice really becomes quite powerful sadhana as MJ helps release

tension

> and slow the thinking so as to allow vision more to develop. Of

course this

> is not taught, too bad, there's not too much wrong with it. Have

also used

> the others all to their culmination in their enthnobotanical though

not pure

> forms. They are good, at showing how the mind develops petulant and

personal

> notions of mine and so on which considering the constant nature of

change

> which is not owned by anyone really owns all things. Hence praise

Mahakali,

> and we know She allows such things as they are merely the opulence

of Her

> form. Praise Her. Yes. MJ is the pubic form of consciousness for

this

> planet, of Bhudevi. Sorry I get a bit devotional, MJ will do that.

One can

> acheive the same result as yangti with just their mind and thought

alone if

> they have sufficient clarity, in sadhana. Yangti just another

skillful

> means. Developed the pineal with the two year headache sitting in

Maharishi

> Patanjali Golden Domes .

>

> -

> "mahahradanatha" <mahahradanatha

> <>

> Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:27 AM

> Re: nastika and astika

>

>

> > Namaste

> > i think you misunderstood my posting, i was not talking about

> > ingesting any external substance, i was talking about the

reaction

> > of the body chemistry when a person is subjected to a prolonged

> > period of complete darkness, as it is done in some tantra systems

> > like in dzog-chen teachings or Kalachakra where it is done during

so

> > called completion stage Yoga sadhana.

> >

> > The phases of synthetisation do happen inside the Body until after

> > the 9 Day of retreat in darkness the pineal gland returns to the

> > active state of childhood before it calcified and will itself

again

> > exude pure dmt because by the effect of a long period of darkness

the

> > inhibiory substances that developed during adulthood are not

produced

> > anymore in the Body. Waht i was saying is that should our friend

> > llundrub practice dzog chen dark retreat he needs no external

> > substances he can produce them in his body.

> >

> > MahaHrada

> >

> > , kartik gaurav <omkaaraya@>

> > wrote:

> >

> >> Namaste,

> >

> >> You must have lived for a long time! The DMT theory is pretty

much

> > well known thanks to some tibetain systems and research on south

> > america and mexican mystics who say pineal is highest chakra; or

at

> > least make reference to it. DMT itself is moderately easy to

> > synthesize from indole based pigments...lol big clues are landing

> > down here and is truly tried and tested by many veterans. But to

be

> > honest I never saw the phases as you mentioned it, many thanks for

> > that! Really appreicated.

> >

> >>

> >> The synthesis can most definetly be done in the backyard because

> > HPLC of catalyzed routes suggest very little toxicity of the

> > substance to major organs like liver and kidneys;the brain is a

> > different story lol. Another big problem is anything that screws

up

> > melatonin cycles tend to also stuff up the immune system.

> >

> >> I think you will find tobago to be more useful, the pathway for

its

> > actvity is totally different but its far more effective than DMT;

> > they say the sprit soars outside the body once it is taken, I

agree

> > and that is why I wouldnt try it myself. I saw a documentary of

> > someone drinking cacti tea which had DMT in it, it really didnt do

> > them much good. So I suggest that the whole process of siddha is

not

> > so much stooped physiologically as it is spiritually.

> > To emphasize this point the first sadhanas I was personally told

to

> > do was to invoke yakshinis and shakinis. I was a skeptic and so it

> > the all nighter sadhans were deadly boring however the results

were

> > very promising. I have to believe in the fact that the spiritual

> > element supercedes the physical in these contexts.

> >> However, that does not mean that there is a mantra that can

> > possibly cure aids or cancer.If there is then I obviously dont

know

> > about it. And that is the reason why I think its good to sometimes

> > partition the spritual with the scientific, both if differentiated

> > can yield better results then if they are fused together. Their

aims

> > are different, spritual practices imo are more internalzied and

> > scientific study is more externalized. One is subjective and the

> > other objective. Like Kapila suggested that to explain any given

> > physical phenomena is to address it from two major contexts the

> > Purusha and the Prakriti. Both frames of reference tend to be

> > different.

> >>

> >> My personal opinion was to master some yogic mudras than risk

> > damaging my precious internal organs with strange mixtures. This

why

> > I personally exercise caution against most things that go off a

> > tangent from coffee and tea. THey are enough for me lol.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

What exists without exists within.

 

--And may be the link between the two

namaste Mahahruda, sorry I would have to say that if you thought I misunderstood then I probably I did. I was just meaning to say that Ingestion of certain mixtures can also give similar effects, but as always phenomena induced it such a way tend to be more dangerous.

 

With respect to the second post, I dont believe I knew of back then. Computers and I arent very compatible!

On the matter of yajnas, I am familiar with Gandharva yagnyas where bhuvanapati sukta of atharvaveda is used and also minor bali yagnas to Kubera in Shivopasana; however, I have never really come across one tailored for yakshinis. Maybe you could be gracious enough to share your knowledge of theory, practice and origin of such a siddhanta?

We do Yakshini sadhana as first anumAna of mantra siddhi and it is never to subjugate or form any type of link with them as one does with karna pishachini. Also these are not of the 36 commonly worshipped yakshinis of kama ratna system.

 

The system of worship, mantras, rituals [as it may seem], intentions and also quite possibly the "Yakshini" themselves may be different. As Yogini is to Lalita, as Dakini and Varnani are to Chinnamasta, Yakshini is to Tara. She in her bija to which akshobhaya is the rishi, can be, and is worshipped as Maha Yaksharajni, (the queen of all Yakshinis) as is Ucchista Ganapati [different bija and mantra system]. The invocation of Yakshini is only done as an anga devata to Tara and it serves to aid purna siddhi in her vidya. I worship her since my Guru is purna siddha in Tara; my aims are different..

 

A lot of people avoid directly doing Karna pishachini and do hanuman sadhana, using his mantra to cause a similar effect. I have only read about this in a few books, never heard of such an event by acharyas or anyone who practices vaishnava tantra. The converse is true for some, it takes a long time and a lot of effort to become purna siddha in maha vidya. People do anga devata upasana simply to just expediate what is essentially the worship of a Devata. You will find a similar pretext in Tantra Raja for doing Naimittika worship, who herself is lalita tripura sundari in nitya nature. I think you will be more familiar with Lalita system, there are people who worship ati rahasya yogini and such, along with written down systems of worship such as shyama krama.

 

The bhuta vidyas give you realization of what and who bhutas are. Devi is considered to be far more complex in her nature, as she encapsulates a lot more than bhuta. Sure if you do her avarana its easy to just take out their names, without proper consideration.For instance I'd bet not a lot of people go into the questioning of why Dakini is in mula and such, and what is their nature relative to devi. To understand these concepts [which are essentially prior to starting devi sadhana, since they are a significant constitutent of the fundamental cosmology of devi] we do mantras that pertain to them. Nitya Nitya vidya for instance has dakini bijas are central components. The modern rudrayamala [pub. chaukhamba] also give prithvi and pranava bijas as being primarily dakini tattva. Using that interpretation even maha shodashAkshari invokes dakini since it has pritvi bija without anuswara.

 

In our parampara the practices themselves and directly experienced phenomena are closely guarde secrets as they would be for anyone else. There are multiple justifications for doing such sadhanas, I believe I am unaware of the specifics of why I did mine. This is the problem of learning under a sadhu, they dont make sense to the world and they dont want to make sense of it either.

One needs to get out of the myth and urban legends of Yakshinis as perpetuated by people who'd probably otherwise know very little about them save for their own brand of fiction. It is safe to have to view that if lord Shiva is Bhuta natha then Devi is Bhuta Rajni and being so, she is the inner most quality of all bhutas as well as being the all encapsulating superficial quality.

 

Jaya Jaya Shri Tripura

 

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

Hi ,

 

I am new to this group.

 

I have some doubts would like to ask you all.

 

around 5 months ago I started doing Dhyan Sadhana. one mentioned in Patanjali Yoga sutra.

 

and I had exp of Ajana Chakra envoking. BUt I got afraid and I stopped doing sadhna. I felt as I might die. becasue I felt as I am expanding above my head.

 

since then my concious level has never been the same. If I look back I see I am a new person. TOday atleast I can speak to you about this ,and write this mail.

 

BUt there was a time when I just don;t feel like talking. or reacting. This is scary. becasue I have to live in this world for my family.

 

So I stopped now to Ajana Chakra and not going beyond this level. also I don;t do much sadhna in fear of loosing myself.

 

I would like to know what are your experiences.

Bharat

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