Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

Posted by Yaduraja on Nov 09, 2006:

Dear Ramakanta prabhu,
PAMHO, AGTSP,
You ask:

> If Srila Prabhupada does not have to be present (incarnated) on the same
> planet as his disciple to deliver his disciple, as you claim, then why did
> he write that he has to come back from Goloka Vrindaban to deliver those
> disciples who are not delivered along with him?
>
> If you don't know why he wrote that, then just tell me.

But you appear to agree that Srila Prabhupada does not have to be physically
present on the same planet as his disciples to deliver them since you wrote:

(not necessarily during the whole lifetime of his disciples)(Ramakanta das)

Since we both agree what is your problem? If he can deliver those disciples
who 'outlive' him, then obviously he does not have to be physically present
to deliver disciples. Can't you understand this exceedingly simple point?

Srila Prabhupada states that:

“ithe Spiritual Master remains in the material universe until all of His
disciples are transferred to the Spiritual Sky”

Since this 'material universe' is vast, with millions of planets, obviously
it is more than possible for him to remain within it and at the same time
not be physically present for all his disciples.

Even when Srila Prabhupada was on this planet he did not physically meet
many of his disciples, so obviously this ‘delivering’ does not absolutely
require that the disciple has to experience the physical presence of the
guru.

Srila Prabhupada stated over and over again that his physical presence is
not necessary so you must have completely misunderstood everything, as
usual:

"Just like Krishna can be present simultaneously in millions of places.
Similarly, the Spiritual Master also can be present wherever the disciple
wants. A Spiritual Master is the principle, not the body. Just like a
television can be seen in thousands of places by the principle of relay
monitoring. SPL 28th May 68

My Dear Sudama,
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter
dated January 4th, 1970. I noted the contents with great interest. Actually,
I was thinking of you from London and by the grace of Krishna my anxiety was
televisioned to you in your dream. 8th Jan 70

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound
received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will
make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my
absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be
source of inspiration for you.
(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of
me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not
together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only
with this spiritual connection. (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69 )

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That
is real association.
(Lectures SB, 68/08/18 )

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational
conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception
is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master,
we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no
longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual
Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is
real association.
(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57 )

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the
last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always
present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association -
by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence.
Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani
continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the
Vani, not the physical presence.
(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion )

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.
(Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75 )

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically
present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.
(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77 )

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons
engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic
problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to
associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by
understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.
(SB 3:31:48 )

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.
(Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67 )


Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila
Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always
meditating on your instructions.
Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is
not important.
(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do
you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping
my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always
thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of
my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and
because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is
helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of
association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so
important as preceptorial association.
(Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69 )

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical
presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my
instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there
is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose
mission I am humbly trying to push on.
(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74 )

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual
Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So
continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual
progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you,
still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of
Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.
(Letter to Subala, 29/9/67 )

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted
as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from
the Spiritual Master, that is living.
(General lectures, 69/01/13 )

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los
Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the
Spiritual Master be pleased?'
Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you
by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I
am associating with him by his words.
(SB Lectures, 71/08/18 )

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta
Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To
serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.
(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77 )

So that is called prakata, physically present. And there is another phrase,
which is called aprakata, not physically present. But that does not mean,
Krsna is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, prakata or aprakata,
physically present or not present, it does not matter.
(Lectures SB 73/12/11 )

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may
be in far distant place.
(Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68 )

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness
and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present
there but spiritually I am always with you.
(Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67 )

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is
physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all
the same.
(Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70 )

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the
Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may
appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his
instruction, I never feel separated from him.
(Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70 )

I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in
his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's
word is more important than to serve him physically.
(Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70 )

Follow the instruction, not the body.

So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru
Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a
moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any
separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant
personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders.
This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be
very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the
king. Personal association is not so important as association through
serving.
(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

So spiritually appearance and disappearance, there is no difference ...
spiritually there is no such difference, appearance or disappearance.
Although this is the disappearance day of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, there is nothing to be lamented, although
we feel separation.
(Lecture, Los Angeles 13/12/73)

So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you ... it is not
that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding ... he is
seeing. I never feel that I am alone.
(Lecture, 2/3/75)

Vani is more important than vapuh.
(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

Yes I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now
appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his
instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit.
(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the
suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can
extinguish the fire of material existence.
(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means the
physical body. Vapuh will be finished. This material body it will be
finished, that is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of
the spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up...if you always keep
intact, in link with the words and instructions of the higher instructions,
then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.
(General lectures, 75/03/02)

So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or
Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message
(or hearing) is the real touch.
(Letter to students, August 1967)

Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition.
(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator
is apparently absent.
(SB 2.9.8.)

The disciple and Spiritual Master are never separated because the Spiritual
Master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple
follows strictly the instructions of the Spiritual Master. This is called
the association of Vani. Physical presence is called Vapuh. As long as the
Spiritual Master is physically present, the disciple should serve the
physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual Master is no
longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of
the Spiritual Master.
(SB 4:28:47)

If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee
should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference
between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.
In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the
disciple."
(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

Yet according to one of the Ramakanta's, 'physical presence' is absolutely
essential. Clearly you have misinterpreted the quotes you gave. Best wishes
Ys
Yadu