Accept limited disciples

09-23-1999, 02:50 PM

Letter to: Caturbhuja
--
Los Angeles
9 May, 1973
73-05-09

My Dear Caturbhuja,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter
dated April 27, 1973. Thank you very much.

In answer to your several questions, first; what is meant by conditioned
soul? Conditioned soul means one who has accepted something illusion as
reality. Conditioned means that due to imperfect desires the spirit soul
becomes dependent on material conditions for his satisfaction.

Your second question; how does he become conditioned when the jivatma is
eternal full of bliss and knowledge? The answer is that it is not the soul
itself that becomes mixed with matter but it is his consciousness that
becomes absorbed in trying to enjoy the matter. Out of desire to lord it
over, the jiva soul forgets that he is eternal, full of knowledge and full
of bliss and identifies with the material energy. So it is the
consciousness of the conditioned soul that is affected.

Your third question is: does the soul ever become weak or strong on
account of its association and contact with material nature? It is not the
spirit soul that becomes weak or strong but it is his determination to
become Krsna Conscious that me become weak or strong. By the influence of
the modes of passion and ignorance he becomes weak and by the influence of
the mode of goodness he becomes strong. But by the association with the
pure devotee he becomes strongest.

Your fourth question: "Whether or not it is possible for the soul to exist
without having this external gross and subtle body covering it? So if the
bird is existing within the cage and someone takes away the cage does that
mean that the bird can no longer exist? No. This body is illusion. It is
only because of out attachment for this body that we have to remian within
it. But as soon as one transfers his attachment to Krsna then no more is
there any need for this body.

Your fifth question is, "Bhagavad-gita says that the conditioned soul is
subjected to four defects. Does that refer to the body or the soul?" The
defects are there in the living being when he is acting on the material
platform. As stated in Bhagavad-gita chapter 15 verse 17: "dvavimau
purusau loke, ksaras caksara eva ca, ksarah sarvani bhutani, kutastho
'ksara ucyate:" "There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the
infallible. In the material world every entity is fallible, and in the
spiritual world every entity is called infallible." So the defects are
there only on the material platform. One who is acting in Krsna
Consciousness is beyond those defects.

Your nest question: "The Bhagavad-gita says that Lord Brahma is a
conditioned soul. Then how was it possible for him to impart the Vedas to
a
non-conditioned soul--Narada Muni?" So, Lord Brahma is a conditioned soul
means that due to his desire to become the creator of the material
manifestation he had to take birth within the material world. But although
he was conditioned by such desire, still he is a great devotee of Lord
Krsna. He has written Brahma-samhita which is pure Vaisnava literature
describing the Supreme Personality of godhead. Lord Brahma was the first
created being within the universe and the first spiritual master, as he
received knowledge from within his heart from Lord Krsna. Narada appeared
as the son of Brahma and therefore he had to accept Lord Brahma as his
spiritual master.

Your last question, "How is the sould degraded (by lust, anger and greed)
when it is transcendental to the body? Doesn't that imply that the sould
has changed?" No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness he may
become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna. The spiritual quality of
the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual
nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than
Krsna.

I hope you are able to understand all these points. As you know, I am
translating so many books into English from the Sanskrit, therefore, I am
very busy. Now, I have representatives, the GBC and the temple presidents
who are qualifies to answer your questions. Of course if you ask me I am
obligated to reply because I am your spiritual master. So please direct
your question to my representatives.

I may be coming to London in June, and I will be pleased to see you at
that time.

Hoping this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
.................................................. ........................

Srila Prabhupada answers seven questions in detail. And these certainly
are questions that could be answered by reading the books. Having done
that, he certainly has the right to conclude:

>Now, I have representatives, the GBC and the temple presidents who are
>qualifies to answer your questions. Of course if you ask me I am
>obligated to reply because I am your spiritual master. So please direct
>your question to my representatives.

Another quote on this topic:

Letter to: Ranadhira
--
Los Angeles
24 January, 1970
70-01-24

>All the devotees who desire to know may ask their questions to the
>elderly members but still they are open to write me for all their
>questions and there should not be any hesitation. I reply each and every
>letter that I receive, but sometimes it may be a little late due to
>pressure of work. But they should write; there is no checking. But it is
>better if simple questions are solved amongst yourselves in the
>Istagosthi class. Every one of you must regularly read our books at least
>twice--in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will
>be answered.

09-23-1999, 05:09 PM

> Am I the only one who found it sad that Indrayumna Maharaja
> never answered his disciple's question? While it is
> understandable that some gurus may not have the time to answer
> every letter, that does not mean that they can't figure out
> some other way in which their disciples can get their
> questions answered. They can suggest that the disciple
> consult some other senior devotees, that they take a siksa
> guru, or they can set up a system from within their own group
> of disciples (e.g. let some of their own senior disciples
> answer certain kinds of questions from more jr disciples) to
> help care for each other.

It is true that younger devotees should get help from older
devotees and that's how it was in Srila Prabhupada's physical
presence.

Regarding directly asking the spiritual master questions, I had
so many questions I wanted to personally ask His Divine Grace
but I couldn't get a word in edge wise. Srila Prabhupada was too
busy expanding a worldwide movement. So what did I do?

Whenever I had questions I used to turn to Srila Prabhupada's
books, and almost every time my question was answered. One time
I just opened a book randomly with a burning question and there
on the opened page was the answer. Many, many other devotees
have had this experience. I felt happy looking for the answers
myself knowing that I was not disturbing His Divine Grace in his
mission with my trivial questions even though they meant so much
to me. Everything really is in Srila Prabhupada's books, tapes,
letters, and conversations. Srila Prabhupada's vani is an ocean
of mercy that can answer all our questions. And with folio you
can ask His Divine Grace a question and get an answer almost
immediately.

I believe Indradyumna Maharaja is doing what Srila Prabhupada
did and I can only pray for getting a drop of Maharaja's mercy.
Although Maharaja did not mention directly in his lecture about
taking help from senior godbrothers and godsisters his disciples
that I know do help each other.

> Maharaja spent the entire darsana on explaining why the
> disciple had unrealistic expectations, but not a moment trying
> to find out what the burning questions might have been, that
> led the disciple to speak up. Personally, I found that an
> example of poor listening skills.
>
> Sorry if my blunt owrds offended anyone. However, we need to
> increase the sense of personal caring in ISKCON, not make
> people feel badly for not acting in ways so "that the
> spiritual master will want to see the disciple". These kinds
> of exchanges are likely to lead to an increasing number of
> frustrated disciples who then go on to seek support elsewhere
> outside of ISKCON.
>
> Ys,
> Madhusudani dasi

I used to sense that Srila Prabhupada was personally caring for
his movement and therefore I thought let me not disturb him with
my personal question but rather let me research his vani and
find the answers for my self. It is a good healthy excercise
that only brings one closer to one's spiritual master.

ys

ada

09-23-1999, 08:21 PM

Sorry mataji but you sold try to be less critical, seems to me that the only
thing you look in the mails is something so you can give your critical point
like if you are above something, you should be more humble, at least, nobody
less a woman should talk about guru sanyasis like you do, sorry if I offend
you but haven't your husband teach you manners??
your servant
premananda goura das
pd any body that lives ISKCON is because is in maya, of course they gonna try
to find an excuse to blup,so we melechas almost always blame guru, so nice
keep encouraging doubt in some week disciples that think my guru didnt answer
so my faith is weak!!!!!!!!
we were reading here a group of devotees the class of maharaja every body
love it!!! ,so nice preaching ,so wonderfull service Maharaja is
doing,unfortunally you have to make it stink thanks
premananda

09-23-1999, 08:24 PM

YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAVE NONE !!!!!!!! LISTENING SKILLS WHAT TO SPEAK OF
HUMILITY!!!BECARFULL MOTHER,YOU ARE OFENDING A VAISNAVA YOU ARE SAYING THAT
you have better skills that him???
prema

09-23-1999, 08:55 PM

>
> >> A: So the insinuation is that by not answering letters or
> >> dealing personally with disciples, the guru may not be taking
> >> proper care of the disciples. But I would offer that there is
> >> a misconception here in guru-disciple
> >
>
> >It all boils down to the disciple preaching and acting so nicely
> >that the spiritual master will want to see the disciple. This is
> >the best way to 'see' the spiritual master rather than the
> >disciple forsaking the initiative to solve his\her own problems
> >with the immense amount of knowledge available in ISKCON.
>
> Am I the only one who found it sad that Indrayumna Maharaja never answered
> his disciple's question? While it is understandable that some gurus may
> not have the time to answer every letter, that does not mean that they
> can't figure out some other way in which their disciples can get their
> questions answered. They can suggest that the disciple consult some other
> senior devotees, that they take a siksa guru, or they can set up a system
> from within their own group of disciples (e.g. let some of their own
> senior disciples answer certain kinds of questions from more jr disciples)
> to help care for each other.
>
> Maharaja spent the entire darsana on explaining why the disciple had
> unrealistic expectations, but not a moment trying to find out what the
> burning questions might have been, that led the disciple to speak up.
> Personally, I found that an example of poor listening skills.
>
> Sorry if my blunt owrds offended anyone. However, we need to increase the
> sense of personal caring in ISKCON, not make people feel badly for not
> acting in ways so "that the spiritual master will want to see the
> disciple". These kinds of exchanges are likely to lead to an increasing
> number of frustrated disciples who then go on to seek support elsewhere
> outside of ISKCON.
>
> Ys,
> Madhusudani dasi

Here I agree with the words of the Mataji... hope that doesn't surprise any
of the readers.

I think it's a very good suggestion that senior disciples can liase with
junior disciples. Srila Prabhupada had a secretary answer each & every
letter he received.

The idea of a "shiksha guru" is also "right on". Ramanujacharya had at
least half a dozen of them... and he is supposed to be an incarnation of
Lakshman (rama + anuja = Ram€nuja = the younger brother of Lord Rama).

Over all; after rereading this, I feel that there are several valid points
here. Vaishnavism and Vedic culture are supposed to be personal. The "big
institution" that we live in *sometimes* instills the feeling in some of us
that; "well, who cares - it's not my business". It's easy to pass the buck.

And the unnatural thing about "modern urban" city life is that there are
simply *too many* people to relate to. Compare this to the village life -
it comes through clearly in CC when Mahaprabhu talks to the Chand Kazi -
where everyone feels a "familial" relationship with everyone else in the
village. And why not? Everyone there knows each other... but in the modern
"city" setup - nobody knows his next door neighbor (yes, this is somewhat
exaggerated) and they couldn't care less who lives next door anyway.... and
this mentality is coming here in India too in a big way. For instance;
Bombay. Just how many people live there? 1.5 Crore! (15 million). Just
how many people can we relate to on a daily basis, anyway? What is humanly
possible?

The bottom line is that in kali-yuga things are upside down. Things go
wrong quick. The path of adharma is seen as the path of dharma, etc.

So these things should be considered. Relationships between guru-shishya
are meant to be personal. So nothing wrong with accepting fewer
disciples...

On the other hand making many disciples seems to increase the number of
vaishnavas rapidly. But indeed the problem arises as to how they will be
properly guided in the future...

It might be answered that SP didn't consider that as the foremost "worry";
but the preaching mission was considered the foremost. So maybe if more
senior devotees were seen as "gurus"; even if they aren't "diksha gurus",
but only shiksha gurus, that might help "even things out" as it were.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts. I'm not going on any campaign on
this... yet.

VaiŠava d€sanud€s,

B€su Ghosh D€s

09-24-1999, 01:49 AM

> Am I the only one who found it sad that Indrayumna Maharaja never answered
> his disciple's question?

Not only one, but actually if sth is really important IDS put his energy, ie
writes letters. I know my case. When i had serious problems his letters were
of the most importance to me. But to answer how exactly Ksirodakasayi is
...., and other philosofical questions there more than enbough confgerences
on COM, and Trivikram Maharaj in Poland who is always ready to discuss and
always has time for such discussions, but merely anybody come forward. And
regarding "mental letters", i remember how IDS was extremelyu personal when
he came to Poland early 90s, and spent lot of time for counseling, writting
letters and so on, but results were oposit to expected.

Why you suggest that he NEVER answers? It was not said by him.

ys dvd

09-24-1999, 09:39 AM

What a delightful letter! What poetry, what eloquence! What tact!

What subtlety! What capacity to convince!

What ability to listen!

What am I doing getting this stuff in my mailbox?

----------
> [Text 2650659 from COM]
>
> YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAVE NONE !!!!!!!! LISTENING SKILLS WHAT TO SPEAK OF
> HUMILITY!!!BECARFULL MOTHER,YOU ARE OFENDING A VAISNAVA YOU ARE SAYING THAT
> you have better skills that him???
> prema
>

09-24-1999, 08:47 PM

Sorry prabhu I send that to mother madusudhani radha that said that Maharaja
laks of lissenting skills,sorry please I think like you was great and very
inspirational,so sorry again
prema

09-25-1999, 10:33 AM

My opinion is that we cant see GURU and look for material qualifications,he
is not an ordinary living being,so why matajii said,is lack of listening
skills,that is still bothers me,specially when you still think you are
rigth,you should apoligized to Maharaja ,otherwise Im deleting all
Madhusudani Radhas coments,
prema

09-25-1999, 01:35 PM

> Sorry prabhu I send that to mother madusudhani radha that said that
> Maharaja laks of lissenting skills,sorry please I think like you was great
> and very inspirational,so sorry again
> prema

Nothing to be sorry about... guess we all have our own perceptions... and
this impersonal medium (e-mail, internet) is far from perfect, no?

VaiŠava d€sanud€s,

B€su Ghosh D€s

09-25-1999, 07:12 PM

> Whenever I had questions I used to turn to Srila Prabhupada's
> books, and almost every time my question was answered. One time
> I just opened a book randomly with a burning question and there
> on the opened page was the answer. Many, many other devotees
> have had this experience.

I too have had this experience, many times.

>From without, the devotee is helped by the spiritual master, the bonafide
representative of Krishna, and from within the Lord helps the devotee as
Caitya-guru, being seated within the heart of everyone......(SSR p.130).

My understanding is the Caitya guru guides us to pick the right book and open
the right page and there we get the right answer.

I also generally ask quesions and get answers from any devotee who ever is
nearby, and do not like to disturb my spiritual master when I can get the
answer this way. Only If I fail to get my answers from anywhere then I
approach my spiritual master.

Even for any personal problems and important decisions in my life, I would like
to go to my spiritual master with different options that I have, and not just
throw up a problem at him. Even before that I try to do my home work with the
experience and guidance of my senior God brothers and God sisters, and then
only approach my spiritual master with the various possible solutions to my
problem and I am confused which one to pick up.

Your humble servant,
Bhadra Govinda Das.