Never called women mataji

Dear Prabhu's,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Why in the world should Srila Prabhupada call his own spiritual daughters

Mataji?

 

Hoping this will meet you in the very best of health by the grace of

Krishna.

Your humble servant,

Hrimati dasi

 

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Dear Sridhar Swami,

 

Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

You are welcome to do with this as you please.

 

I had done much research on this some time ago. Unfortunately I can't find

it at present though I remember the results. Why people argue over this

superficial insignificant type of thing bewilders me. The ultimate

conclusion is that Prabhupada set several different examples of how to

address women with certain types of address dominating. He also gave several

different instructions of how a man should address a woman or women.

Therefore, there are several "correct" options, a fact which seems to upset

some people very much for whatever reason. The bottom line--if one

thoroughly studies Prabhupada's instructions and example-- is that what we

call each other depends more on the particular individuals and their

relationship than on some one size fits all formula. There are certain

*principles* that apply to everyone, but how to apply those principles will

vary depending on circumstances. I summarize those principles at the end.

 

In any case, Srila Prabhupada refered to women as a group in the third

person almost always as "women." Or else he called them "ladies." He used

the term "mothers" when he was referring to women who biologically had

children. He would also use the term "brahmacarinis." I do not know of any

instance where he refered to women in the third person, as a group, as

"mothers" unless he literally meant biological mothers, except in some

instances where he called his disciples as his mothers and fathers in a

figurative sense.

 

As far as speaking directly to women as a group in the second person, his

preferred term was "ladies." In Prabhupada's day, when a speaker addressed a

group, the speaker referred to the females in the group as ladies and the

men as gentlemen. Prabhupada followed this etiquette. I believe that I found

one or two instances where he addressed women as a group in the second

person as brahmacarinis.

 

Regarding referring to an individual woman in the third person, Prabhupada's

preferred style for his disciples was the name followed by "devi dasi" as in

"Indira devi dasi." So he would write something like, You can ask Indira

devi dasi. Or he would only use the name as in You can ask Indira.

Sometimes he would write the name followed by Prabhu, as in something like

you can ask Indira Prabhu. There are a very, very few instances where he

referred to an individual woman in the third person as Mother so and so, and

I believe that in these cases it was an elderly woman. In any case it was

certainly not his general method.

 

When Prabhupada spoke directly to a woman who was his disciple, he would

generally simply use the name. When he spoke to another woman who was not

his disciple, he would call her

whatever she expected to be called, whether it was Mrs. Smith, or Dr.

Steffman or Professor Jones, or Carol Janes or whatever. He would adjust to

the etiquette of the culture in which he was functioning.

 

As far as his instructions to his disciples about how to speak directly to a

woman, he expected disciples to refer to each other, both men and women as

prabhu.

"That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like

that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard

that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that.

(chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming

to Krsna consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They

are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you

are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master." (Room Conversation

about

Marriage -- September 24, 1968, Seattle)

 

Again, Srila Prabhupada himself often referred to his female disciples as

prabhu. Then, again, one could speak of the many, many times he said to call

a woman

mother. These instructions, first of all, refer to direct address in the

second person. In other words, when one is speaking directly *to* a woman,

not

*about* her. And if one wants to use Mother, it should be:

 

Brahmananda: You say like "Mother Rukmini"? There's a devotee named Rukmini.

You say, "Mother Rukmini"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother,"

and then the name of the devotee?

Prabhupada: No. "Mother," simply.

Brahmananda: Just "Mother."

(Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi)

 

There's also instances of Prabhupada telling his male disciples to see the

women as Krishna's gopis, or in other words, meant for Krishna's pleasure.

 

There's a few instances of women calling each other mother in the

scriptures, but mostly they call each other friend, and Prabhupada never

instructed women to call each other mother nor to call themselves mother.

 

Our own names are "dasa" or "devi dasi" Our names are not "Mother Govinda"

but "Govinda devi dasi"

 

So, if we want rules and principles...

 

Principles that Prabhupada taught and exemplified:

See all other devotees, whatever the body, as our master and use terms and

names of respect.

When dealing with the opposite sex, think and speak in terms that denote the

lack of a sexual relationship unless one is married to the person. The most

safe relationship is that of mother and son.

Whenever reasonable, respect the culture of the person to whom we are

speaking or where we are speaking.

 

Rules for those who like rules and aren't satisfied with principles:

Generally we address all other devotees as "prabhu" (the literal Sanskrit

term for women would be prabhvi)

When we refer to ourselves we use the name our spiritual master gave us,

such as "Govinda dasa" or "Govinda devi dasi, " not "Son Govinda" or "Mother

Govinda"

Men should think of all women except their wife as their mother.

Men should address unknown women as "Mother" unless they are in a culture

when doing so would be strange or offensive in which case they would follow

the externals of that culture while internally regarding the woman as

mother.

Men can address a known woman as "Mother" or according to the specific

relationship they have with her. It is certainly also proper to call a woman

devotee as prabhu or prabhvi. There is more than one correct way as there is

more than one instruction.

Woman as a group can be addressed according to the group. If it is a mixed

group, then "women" or "ladies" or whatever is acceptable in that culture is

preferred. If all the women have children then "mothers" make sense. If they

are all brahamcarinis then they could be called such. If they are all

Vaisnavis then they could be called as such. If it is an assembly of female

medical doctors, then they could be addressed as doctors, and so on. Places

and objects that belong to women as a group should be designated as the

"brahmacarini quarters" or the "women's van" or something but not the

"mother's van" unless all those who use it have children.

Women can call other women devotees prabhu, prabhvi, or according to their

individual relationship.

 

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy.

 

Your servant, Urmila devi dasi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

"Sridhar Swami" <Sridhar.Swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

"Bhakti Vikasa Swami" <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Cc: "Free Forum (Announcements)" <Free.Forum (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Thursday, November 13, 2003 12:25 PM

Never called women mataji

 

 

> Did you ever hear Srila Prabhupada address a collective body of women as

> matajis. Now women are also calling themselves as Radha mataji etc etc.

>

> Individually it is correct but what if your wife is in a group of women do

> you say matajis except my wife ?

>

> All I ever heard Srila Prabhupada say was "ladies"

>

>

> Dear Sridhar Swami,

>

> Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

>

> You are welcome to do with this as you please.

>

> I had done much research on this some time ago. Unfortunately I can't find

> it at present though I remember the results. Why people argue over this

> superficial insignificant type of thing bewilders me.

 

I don't know that anyone's "arguing" over it. Someone raised the subject

that some women "demand the right" to be called prabhu, and that kicked it

off. The points you made in your letter have all been discussed. Apart from

that obvious contention, everyone is accepting of the various things that

Prabhupada said.

 

As the saying goes, "call me anything you like, but not late for dinner..."

 

ys

> As the saying goes, "call me anything you like, but not late for

> dinner..."

 

Actually I would like to be called late for dinner as I can't eat anything

worth tasting (I mean honoring). I do not wish my hellish condition on even

my worst enemy. That would of course be someone who flatters me.

 

The only thing is when addressing the ladies in class it is somewhat

ludicrous to call them all mothers as a group.

 

Also I feel funny hearing women (even single women) say "High, I'm mother

so..and..so.

 

I regularly address women as prabhu. I never thought to call them prabhvi

although I know the term. I must say I do address single married women,

without really discriminating whether they have children or not, "mataji".

 

Why should anyone care to discuss these insignificant things ? I agree we

are so careless in almost every finer aspect of vedic culture so why not

this. My favourite is the way we murder sanskrit. Especially Prabhupada's

pranam mantra. Then so many other of our regular prayers. I do think the end

would come when we stop trying to help people chant the maha mantra

properly.

PAMHO.AGTSP.

 

It seems like more bhaktas should know this but Vedic culture and its ettiquete dictates Vaisnavas see all Women as mataji and also milk giving Cows as Mataji there is no question of position or seniority.

ys

premadas