Haribol all,
I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to see Prabhupada
call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this favorable comment for
the first time ). But, I have a few questions that I would like learned members
to address. First of all,
Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?
My understanding is this - these are the original followers of Sankara or the
pure advatins (even before Sankara, I guess), who are great transcendentalists
although having a different angle of vision (as SP puts it in his lectures) of
the absolute truth.
I'm sure these are NOT the modern-day neo-vedantins such as Vivekananda,
Chinmayananda, Ramana Maharishi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, Aurobindo etc., who
although claiming to be advaitins do not exactly follow Sankara's words (atleast
that is my understanding) and blaspheme the Personality of Godhead to the core.
Or, is it possible that there are impersonalists even within the Vaishnavas, who
are not inclined to serving the Supreme Lord, but however understand that
Krishna is the ground of impersonal brahman (BG 14.27) and still want to merge
in to His effulgence (I believe this is one of the 5 types of devotee
liberation).
As you can see, I'm quite confused. Please enlighten. I would like the
discussion to focus on just the questions that have been raised. If someone can
post the sanskrit verse, I'll appreciate.
in your service,
Aravind.

TRANSLATION of SB 5.5.2
One can attain the path of liberation from material bondage only by rendering
service to highly advanced spiritual personalities. These personalities are
impersonalists and devotees. Whether one wants to merge into the Lord's
existence or wants to associate with the Personality of Godhead, one should
render service to the mahātmās. For those who are not interested in
such activities, who associate with people fond of women and sex, the path to
hell is wide open. The mahātmās are equipoised. They do not see any
difference between one living entity and another. They are very peaceful and
are fully engaged in devotional service. They are devoid of anger, and they
work for the benefit of everyone. They do not behave in any abominable way.
Such people are known as mahātmās.
PURPORT
The human body is like a junction. One may either take the path of liberation or
the path leading to a hellish condition. How one can take these paths is
described herein. On the path of liberation, one associate; with
mahātmās, and on the path of bondage one associates with those
attached to sense gratification and women. There are two types of
mahātmās — the impersonalist and the devotee. Although their ultimate
goal is different, the process of emancipation is almost the same. Both want
eternal happiness. One seeks happiness in impersonal Brahman, and the other
seeks happiness in the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As
described in the first verse: brahma-saukhyam. Brahman means spiritual or
eternal; both the impersonalist and the devotee seek eternal blissful life. In
any case, it is advised that one become perfect. In the words of
Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.87):
asat-sańga-tyāga, — ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra
'strī-sańgī' — eka asādhu, 'kṛṣṇābhakta' āra
To remain unattached to the modes of material nature, one should avoid
associating with those who are asat, materialistic. There are two kinds of
materialists. One is attached to women and sense gratification, and the other
is simply a nondevotee. On the positive side is association with
mahātmās, and on the negative side is the avoidance of nondevotees
and women-hunters.
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Dear Aravind
Hare Krishna.

> I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to see
Prabhupada call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this
favorable comment for the first time ).

> Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?
> My understanding is this - these are the original followers of
Sankara or the pure advatins (even before Sankara, I guess), who are
great transcendentalists although having a different angle of vision
(as SP puts it in his lectures) of the absolute truth.
> I'm sure these are NOT the modern-day neo-vedantins such as
Vivekananda, Chinmayananda, Ramana Maharishi, Dr. Radhakrishnan,
Gandhi, Aurobindo etc., who although claiming to be advaitins do not
exactly follow Sankara's words (atleast that is my understanding) and
blaspheme the Personality of Godhead to the core.

sriram: From the verse translation and purport, i understand that the
impersonalists being alluded to are those who also engage in
devotional service. Chanting of the holy names is recommended by
Sripada Adi Sankaracharya till one reaches the stage of Ultimate
reality. The transcendentalist referred to in the quoted verse has 2
qualities:
1) He/She understands the transitory/illusory nature of the material
world.
2) He/She accepts the path of devotional service as a path(may not be
a complete path) to self-realization.

So, any philospher who fulfils above 2 criteria (not necessarily
follower of Sankara's advaita) can be considered a transcendentalist.
Of the philosphers you quoted:
1) Sri Chinmyananda's mission encourages people in bhakti marga(their
bal vihar program is famous for training children in shlokas).
2) Ramakrishna Math, founded by Swami Vivekananda considers Bhakthi
as a path to liberation (for ordinary mortals).
3) Ramana Maharishi, believes in not requiring to do anything. We
have to be just ourselves. He negates the material existence and
hence fulfils the first criterion , but not the second.

The notion of Mayavadis as mahajanas is in consonance with GV
philosophy that Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are succesively
higher stages of realization. It is hoped that an aspiring
transcendentalist will raise himself to the level of a devotee after
starting on the path of impersonal brahman realization and so
association with Mayavadis is useful to develop detachment.
Thereafter, we have to graduate to the stage of positive attachment
to Krishna.

In your service
k.n.sriram

Aravind,

You are correct in understanding that the impersonalists referred to
here are NOT the modern-day neo-Advaitins (Ramakrishna et. al.) but
rather to the more austere j~naana-yogis spoken of in shaastra who
are endeavoring to merge with the brahmajyoti.

The word "mahatsevaaM" is what is being translated by Srila
Prabhupada as "service to the spiritually advanced persons called
mahaatmaas." The verse is saying that, regardless of whether or not
one wants the impersonal liberation or the more desireable goal of
Lord's association, one should render service to the mahaatmaas. This
is true for impersonalists as it is of devotees, for service to a
mahaatma is a better use of one's time than selfish sense-
gratification.

It is not clear to me whether or not the impersonalists referred to
are also Vishnu devotees with an impersonalist bent. However, I think
it is important to realize that any genuine yogi who is hankering
after liberation is worthy of respect. This is probably why Srila
Prabhupada includes them in the general category of "mahaajanas."

Yet it is also true that, despite great knowledge and great
austerity, maayaavaadi mahaajanas are still offenders at the lotus
feet of the Lord, due to their considering his personal from to be
subordinate to the impersonal conception.

Hare Krishna

My dandvat pranams to everyone here and a very happy new year.

sorry for past month i have been very busy because of family
commitments and vacation season. Aravind i shall shortly make a post
on Vedicsociety in continuation to my last one.

As for your question over here:

1) In Sastra jnana yoga marga aims at realization of self[jivaatman]
in its pristine state free from effects or covering of prakriti. And
on success jnana leads to dhyana yoga[in which highest achievement
is samadhi/kaivalyam]. The pristine state of Jivataman is that its
simply bliss consciousness. This absorption of Self in contemplating
uniterruptedly on its own blissfull nature is what is called
Kaivalyam. A soul in such state is not aware of other jivatamans and
is neither aware of prakriti or all that follows from prakritic
association. Its just "perfectly established" in contemplation on
its own blissfull nature. Vedanta sutra states that this enjoyment
of a mukta of his own Self is brought about by grace of Supreme.
Without His grace Jiva cannot achieve it. Surrendering to Supreme is
what evokes his grace. Krishna is very clear in gita that jiva atman
can cross maya of krishna "only" by surrendering to him. Even in
gita it is stated that without bhakti one cannot achieve this state.
Ramanuja clearly writes in his commenatry on gita 14.26 that Brahman
[Jiva brahman] or Self isn't simply achieved by contemplating or
speculating about difference between Self and inert material nature
but its surrender to Supreme in mood of bhakti that helps a baddha
jiva to overcome gunas of prakriti and attain Self as it is
immutable, blissfull, immortal, beyond the influence of prakriti
through real knowledge of Self. However this bhakti is not Suddha
bhakti since in this case surrender to bhagavan and bhakti bhava
following that surrender is practiced with point of view of gaining
knowledge of atman and finally being established in absorption of
ones consciousness in ones own blissfull nature.

So since surrender to Krishna is practised here, these people can be
called mahajans. One category of people surrendering to Krishna are
jigyasu or seekers after knowledge. [Gita 7 chapter] They are equal
to everyone and well wishers to everyone. Free from material taints
and dualities they are established in true knowledge of Self by
grace of krishna. However these people are at a lower stage when
compared to suddha bhaktas who follow the path of Sarangati and are
only content by pleasing krishna without any ulterior motive be it
liberation in form of kaivalyam or any kind of material benefit.
Such people only aim at endless communion with krishna in prema and
are content with that.

2) Followers of Sankara ain't true jnanis like the one i was talking
about in point 1. One must remember the scriptural conception of
brahman the impersonal absolute is different from what Sankara's
conception of brahman is. Gaudiyas don't say impersonal absolute is
attributeless or nirvisesa vastu etc....... like Sankarites. Hence
these advaitic followers of Sanakara can never be called mahajans.
Reason being:

a) First they don't even understand there object of worship -
Impersonal Brahman as it is explained in scriptures.

b) Second they neither understand true nature of Soul. They think it
to be infinite and absolutely identical with Supreme. All this
which is mentioned in Sankara's mayavada is totally
against "basic vedic principles". So how can they ever be
established in true nature of Soul.

Its just because of their offences to Supreme Person Vasudeva
that they are not able to understand themselves[jivatman] and
neither impersonal brahman[their object of worship]. This is the
fate of a person who doesn't follows vedic principles. Sometimes
they may talk about bhakti etc.... but bhakti is not merely a
sentiment, goswamis are very clear that bhakti which voilates the
principles of Sastra like pancaratra, upanisads, gita, bhagavata
etc..... is simply disturbance in society. That bhakti is neither
assudha bhakti nor suddha bhakti its "purely disturbance". That is
what Sankaras mayavada has created in society - disturbance a
spiritual disturbance. Time stands as a proof of this.

3) So who are these mahajans ? answer comes from bhagavata where it
is said great people like Sukadeva Goswami and Kumars were all
established in Self in its pristine state and then as the atma rama
verse of bhagavata talks about how people established in Self[ atma
rama] are elevated to Krishna consciousness, these people were
elevated to the platform of suddha bhakti by grace of Lord. So those
people who like Sukadeva and Kumars remain situated in knowledge of
Self and are not against basic principles of Vedic Sastra can be
called mahajans and not these mayavadi followers of Sankara
Vedanta or neo vedanta.


Your Servant Always,
Sumeet.

> --- In achintya (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Aravind Mohanram
<psuaravind@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Haribol all,
> >
> > I was reading the Bhagavatam verse below and was surprised to
see
> Prabhupada call even impersonalists as mahajanas (I'm seeing this
> favorable comment for the first time ). But, I have a few
questions
> that I would like learned members to address. First of all,
> >
> > Who are the impersonalists that are being talked about?
> >