Bhakti for the sake of mukti

[Guest guest]

Is it wrong for a Vaishnava to worship Krishna for liberation? I mean, people say it is selfish to love krishna with some end in view, even if it happens to be a noble one. Will such people only go to vaikuntha and they have no chance of reaching vrindavan? Please clear my doubts, I am a neophyte devotee, thanks.

[Guest guest]

the "mukti" in bhukti-mukti does not mean the same thing as attaining golok since prema cannot be perfected without leaving behind this world and this material body. The same goes for residence in sri vaikuntha if the reason for wanting that is to serve the lord. Service reaches its fullest perfection in that world, so there is nothing wrong in desiring to serve the deity personally there.

[bhakta_john 0]

please cite scripture to support you conclusion "there is nothing wrong in desiring to serve The Deity personally

there".

[Guest guest]

Try song twelve prarthana of narottama das thakura...

 

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ari hari ara ki emana dasa

kabe brsabhanu-pure ahiri gopera ghare

tanaya haiya janamiba

 

When will I take birth as a gopi in the town of Maharaja Vrsabhanu, where many gopas and gopis live? O Lord Hari, Lord Hari will I someday attain this condition of life?

 

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>>>"there is nothing wrong in desiring to serve The Deity personally there".

 

--- Yes, there is nothing wrong. Doesn't mean we don't want to serve here also. But what is wrong with wanting to go there? What is wrong in it? He is there, His servant also want to go there. What is wrong? Please explain me. This is not merely salokya mukti, this is the topmost aspiration of soul in bhakti yoga. These two are not the same. Achieving prema in goloka to serve the lord is greatest aspiration we have to approach with utmost humility. What is wrong with aspiring for same?

[Guest guest]

the other kind of mukti merging in brahman and losing identity is denounced.

 

bhava bandhacchide tasyai spRhayAmi na muktaye,

bhavAn prabhur aham dAsa iti yatra vilupyate

 

O Lord Who is capable of giving Liberation

by destroying all the material bondage!

Under no circumstance I'd ever desire to be liberated,

in which state that I am your Loving Servant and

You are My Beloved Master is permanently lost !

 

- Padyavali.111

[Guest guest]

 

You have to be more specific. A blanket use of the term Vaishnava is not right for such questions.

 

For example, Ramanuja and Madhva followers are Vaishnavas and they worship Vishnu/Krishna for Mukti as mentioned in the Veda-s and the Gita as the ultimate goal for mankind.

 

Gaudiya vaishnavas have a confused notion of mukti and do not quite understand the concept of liberation as understood by others.

 

 

[Guest guest]

and I am even more confused now. I assumed that all Vaishnavas admitted Bhakti to be greater than mukti, so I felt guilty about wanting mukti (from this material existence) more than anything else. So you're saying it is alright to seek mukti, provided we desire it to serve Krishna in Vrindavan? Is this what Madhva and Ramanuja taught?

[Guest guest]

bhakti is the goal. when you achieve bhakti your bhakti is going to include a desire to serve, and you will want to be near your Beloved Deity with a strong desire, when the heart begins to melt. I do say you will demand it, I am saying the desire to be near the object of Bhakti (Krishna) will be there

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>> For example, Ramanuja and Madhva followers are Vaishnavas and they worship Vishnu/Krishna for Mukti as mentioned in the Veda-s and the Gita as the ultimate goal for mankind.

 

--- But here mukti is DEFINITELY not impersonal liberation or merging w/ brahman, etc.

 

Yes, the word "mukti" itself create problem in that there are so many meanings. i have to come back later to discuss this but very nice questions.

[Guest guest]

 

 

and I am even more confused now. I assumed that all Vaishnavas admitted Bhakti to be greater than mukti, so I felt guilty about wanting mukti (from this material existence) more than anything else. So you're saying it is alright to seek mukti, provided we desire it to serve Krishna in Vrindavan? Is this what Madhva and Ramanuja taught?

 

 

You are speaking from a Gaudiya Vaishnava perspective. It is not true that all Vaishnavas share the same philosophy. The only common factor is they are worshippers of Vishnu.

 

Gaudiyas are seeking liberation from this material existence too and in that respect, they are no different from others. Be very clear about that. They redefine Mukti in their own way and then say it is not good, but all the while they are seeking liberation from material life. No GV you talk to will deny that he or she is seeking to get out of the cycle of rebirth.

 

Bhakti is greater than Mukti is a statement that makes as much sense as saying I-75 (freeway) is better than Detroit (city). For more details, please refer to the Gita. It is strongly recommended that you read multiple translations ( at least 3) to get a resonably accurate picture as no translator has done a perfect job.

 

In conclusion, it is perfectly alright for a person to seek liberation(mukti) from the pains and sorrows and the ephemeral nature of material life. Don't get confused, my friend.

 

For information on other streams of Vaishnavas, you can search and Google for Vishwa Madhva sangha, Dvaita, vishishtadvaita, Sri Vaishnava, Ramanuja, etc. You will find plenty of information online.

 

The more information you have, the wiser your choice will be.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

A quick note on "serving Krishna in Vrindavan".

 

Alert: No sarcasm is implied. This is just the way I see it.

 

Krishna does not need anyone's service.

 

He does not need someone to cook up Aloo parathas for his breakfast or to launder his silk dhoti or to roll paan bedas (Krishna being a north indian, he would naturally have a north indian personality/life style). If such a system of service to Krishna exists, then it has to be purely for the benefit of the server.

 

If you think about it for a moment, the above is the exact opposite of a real life scenario where a service is prinmarily for the benefit of the served and not the server.

 

Why would things be reversed in Vrindavan? One naturally wonders...

 

Cheers

 

[theist 1]

 

Gaudiyas are seeking liberation from this material existence too and in that respect, they are no different from others. Be very clear about that. They redefine Mukti in their own way and then say it is not good, but all the while they are seeking liberation from material life. No GV you talk to will deny that he or she is seeking to get out of the cycle of rebirth.

 

 

This I agree with. Every suffering living being wants to be free of that suffering. We should not pretend otherwise. Most of us also desire greater material accomodations like heaven or at least a beachfront in Malibu or somewhere. This stage is called mixed devotional service.

 

We are mixed up as to our true goal. But that is OK as long as we recognize it and keep advancing. It will pass.

 

Pure Bhakti is the activity of the liberated souls. One engaged in Pure Bhakti there is no thought of seeking liberation from it.

 

So-called bhakti-yoga done with eye to merge into the absolute is not Pure Bhakti. It is just some shadow not worth spending time with.

 

You are on the right track. Trying to read many different philosphy's will only confuse you more.

 

Keep chanting with patience and determination and an eye on the true goal. Krsna will do the rest.

[theist 1]

>>>Is it wrong for a Vaishnava to worship Krishna for liberation?<<<

 

No, not wrong, just not the highest option. We all have a desire for libertaion from suffering and Krsna knows that.

 

 

>>>I mean, people say it is selfish to love krishna with some end in view, even if it happens to be a noble one.<<<

 

Yes that is so. But you cannot artifically think yourself into a state beyond selfishness. But by Krsna's grace he can take us to such a position.

 

It will help to concentrate more on attaining Krsna's grace. Have a little faith that His grace will include an end to your suffering. We should have at least that much faith.

 

 

 

>>>Will such people only go to vaikuntha and they have no chance of reaching vrindavan? Please clear my doubts, I am a neophyte devotee, thanks. <<<

 

We are all neophytes. Such people as you describe, which I see as everyone at a certain stage, will have their desire for liberation quieted as they become liberated from gross and subtle desires.

 

The at some point they will lose all gross and subtle desires and have left only the desire to serve Krsna in whatever mood they find appropriate whether Vrndaban or Vaikuntha.

 

It is not helpful to try and satisfy such desires. If you feed them they will grow.

 

It is also not helpful to pretend those desires do not exist. I think you are in a very good position, an honest position. Just be aware of them while they last and don't become sidetracked in fighting too much with them or trying to satisfy them.

 

Just remember the liberation you seek is included in the grace Krsna gives to His devotees but it is the more insignificant portion. Let us engage our selfish nature to it's fullest and seek the whole package of Krsna's grace.