The Intelligent Designer

[theist 1]

Thanks Mod's =:-)

[Ayodhya 0]

I can't imagine ever supporting Intelligent Design.

All supporters of Intelligent Design use the Bible and the Creation story to back up their claims. All their evidence goes into proving the Christian story of creation. Whether or not they prove there is an intelligent designer, it won't be a Hindu one.

[suchandra 1]

 

I can't imagine ever supporting Intelligent Design.

All supporters of Intelligent Design use the Bible and the Creation story to back up their claims. All their evidence goes into proving the Christian story of creation. Whether or not they prove there is an intelligent designer, it won't be a Hindu one.

 

This could only happen because the Bhaktivedanta Institut didnt follow Prabhupada's order to do what he said. All the publications dont have the effect to make common people undestand the Intelligent Design from vedic point of view. And as soon the Christians found out they took up Prabhupada's spirit and used it to promote their bible content and get the public attention. When you examine their way of preaching with logic and reason - it's all stolen from Prabhupada.

[Guruvani 0]

If I remember correctly, the gopis made it quite clear that the "intelligent designer" was not so intelligent, because he couldn't figure out how to make eyes that don't blink.

The blinking of the eyes obstructed their vision of Krishna for a moment, so they didn't see this as a very intelligent design.

[theist 1]

 

I can't imagine ever supporting Intelligent Design.

All supporters of Intelligent Design use the Bible and the Creation story to back up their claims. All their evidence goes into proving the Christian story of creation. Whether or not they prove there is an intelligent designer, it won't be a Hindu one.

 

Unadulterated sectarianism.

 

Actually intelligent design proponents use modern science to prove intelligent design and not the Bible or the Gita.

[bhaktidd 0]

This is where it boils down to Lord Krsna's law of attraction.

You see what you want to see. You don't see what you don't want to see.

For you to be able to understand anything, you must want to understand it, otherwise you will always attract to you, all those understandings, circumstances, paradigms, etc., which back up what it is that you don't want to perceive.

 

A digression here as to why this is so.

 

From our Krsna Conscious viewpoint:

Lord Krsna is all attractive - WHY ?

Not just because of His possessing all six opulences in full: all beauty, all knowlege, all strength, all wealth, all renunciation, all fame.

He is not all attractive only because "He's the most beautiful and therefore He appeals to me" etc., BUT

 

He is ALL ATTRACTIVE because He is the source of our creation, our existence. We exist on a vibrational level, because of our creator, because of Him. Because He is what we are made up of.

 

And so, when devotees come in direct contact with God, with the source of our existence, we recognize that quality of energy, from which we are created. It's like coming home - it's familiar.

 

He (to an infinitesimal degree) is who we are, because we are simultaneously one with Him, and yet different from Him, because we have our own unique personality.

 

So Krsna is all-attractive = everyone is attracted to Him, because He is the source of the energy of their existence - their basis, and at every moment he continues to cause all living entities to exist.

 

Krsna is all attractive = He attracts ALL which resonates with His energy, and it ALL does because it was created from Him.

 

and Therefore, because we are tiny, infinitesimal fragments of Him we also have this same quality of all-attraction. We attract everything which resonates with us, with our consciousness.

 

So if you want to prove that God doesn't exist - you will find all the ways and means to do so, because you are attracting that by your very consciousness, by your very being.

 

And if you want to prove that God DOES exist, you can do that also, because you will attract all those arguments, experiences, etc., that resonate with your conviction of the non-existence of God.

 

In other words, it comes down to this.

For ANYONE to accept that GOD or anything else for that matter exists, they must WANT it within their very consciousness, within their very BEING.

 

Otherwise it is not possible to change anyone's mind, if that mind wants to keep a firm viewpoint of the opposite of what you are trying to convince them of.

 

And this is exactly what Lord Krsna means when He says: Bh.g.10.9

mac-citta mad-gata-prana

mat-gata-pranah--their lives devoted to Me

It is interesting that Krsna here uses the word "prana", meaning that his devotees are devoted to Him, HOW ? with their prana - with their very life air, their very BEING. With their consciousness which pervades their entire existence.

 

Any thoughts?

[theist 1]

Yes that is very true bhaktidd. Rae is the soul that is a true scientist and follows the facts wherever they lead without any foregone conclusions.

 

One such person is that famous atheist (forgot his name, help) who lead the charge against the belief in God until within the last two years and himself at and advanced age became convinced of the existence of God by the ID argument that material existence is too complex to have evolved and could have only come about by a Supreme Intelligence. He did not become a member of any religion but became a theist by honest reflection on the arguments put forward by ID warriors like Behe and others.

 

What his name again? Fife or something like that?

[theist 1]

 

 

I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins. It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose. -Antony Flew

 

Flew rightly rejects the idea of God as propounded by Islam and Christianity. The mean anger God who burns people in eternal hell. Good on him. Now he needs to consider Krsna the All-Attractive Well Wisher of everyone.

 

Seek and ye shall find.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

[suchandra 1]

 

If I remember correctly, the gopis made it quite clear that the "intelligent designer" was not so intelligent, because he couldn't figure out how to make eyes that don't blink.

The blinking of the eyes obstructed their vision of Krishna for a moment, so they didn't see this as a very intelligent design.

 

Yes correct, this is exactly what the Bhaktivedanta Institut presented in their books for the modern atheistic world population - the design is not intelligent.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Yes correct, this is exactly what the Bhaktivedanta Institut presented in their books for the modern atheistic world population - the design is not intelligent.

 

Why does every topic have to turn political with somebody who has an ax to grind?

[theist 1]

Yes, just say no to politics on this thread please and let's stay on topic. The topic is Intelligent Design...the objective is to counter the unintelligent speculations of the atheistic scientists which are misleading the mass of humanity and spoiling the purpose of the human form which is to advance in God consciousness.

[Guruvani 0]

Well, you have to look at the material universe as a correctional institution, a prison-like fort for confining and rectifying rebelious and criminal behaviour, not as the perfect Shangri-la where everything is a pleasure giving energy.

 

If we examine the material universe from the proper perspective, then maybe we can see that actually it was perfectly intelligently designed for the purpose intended.

 

If we think that the material universe is the only expression of the creatve skills of God, then we might think that maybe the creator is not really so intelligent.

 

But, prisons weren't meant to be perfect places.

They are built to be miserable, torturous abodes of punishment and reformatory measures - as is this material universe.

 

For the purpose the material universe was actually intended to serve, it's design is in fact supremely intelligent.

[Guest guest]

je-dina grhe, bhajana dekhi,

grhete goloka bhaya

carana-sindu, dekhiya ganga,

sukha na sima paya

 

Dust from the lotus feet of pure devotees is conductive to devotional service, whilee service to the Vaisnavas is itself the supreme perfection and the root o the tender creeper of divine love.

 

I observe with great care the holy days like Ekadasi and Janmastami, for they are the mother of devotion. As my dwelling place I choose with the greatest of reverence and love the transcendental abode of Sri Krsna.

 

All those places where my Lord Gaurasundara traveled for pastimes I will visit in the company of loving devotees.

 

My mind always begs for the opportunity to hear the music of the mrdanga. Upon hearing the kind of kirtana ordained by Lord Gaurasundara, my heart dances in ecstasy.

 

Beholding the Deity forms of the Divine Couple, Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, I feel the greatest joy. By honoring the Lord’s prasada, I conquer over all worldly illusions.

 

<b>Goloka Vrndavana appears in my home whenever I see the worship and servicee of Lord Hari taking place there. When I see the Ganges, that river of nectar emanating from the lotus feet of the Lord, my happiness knows no bounds.</b>

 

The sight of the holy tulasi tree soothes my soul, for I know she gives pleasure to Lord Krsna. By honoring sak, a great favorite of Lord Caitanya’s, I consider life worthwhile.

 

Whatever Bhaktivinoda obrains that is conducive for the service of Sri Krsna he accepts every day with greatest joy.

[Guest guest]

should receive best post award

[Guest guest]

from p. 1

 

A well known scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture a little old lady got up and said, "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really supported on the back of a giant tortoise". The scientist gave a superior smile and said, "But what is the tortoise standing on?" The little old lady replied, "You're very very clever young man, very clever. But it's turtles, turtles, turtles all the way down!"

 

A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes

Stephen Hawkings with intro by Carl Sagan

[Sridas 0]

 

If I remember correctly, the gopis made it quite clear that the "intelligent designer" was not so intelligent, because he couldn't figure out how to make eyes that don't blink.

The blinking of the eyes obstructed their vision of Krishna for a moment, so they didn't see this as a very intelligent design.

 

 

Perhaps we could call him the 'sentiment designer'!

[theist 1]

 

Perhaps we could call him the 'sentiment designer'!

 

Yes Sridas luv is greater than intelligence.

 

But from our position in the material world we need to employ spiritualized intelligence to reach the plane of luv. If we just artifically renounce intelligence before reaching the plane of luv we will be left with mere mundane sentimentalism.

[Sridas 0]

 

Yes Sridas luv is greater than intelligence.

 

But from our position in the material world we need to employ spiritualized intelligence to reach the plane of luv. If we just artifically renounce intelligence before reaching the plane of luv we will be left with mere mundane sentimentalism.

 

Agreed Theist,

I was just perhaps trying to do that, to understand not just the various creations in this section of existence which in itself is a cause for great wonder, but to actually consider the extra ordinary beauty of our very selves, that is the makeup of personality, the fruit of thinking, willing and feeling.

How we are told that the leader of our highest aspiration Srimati Thakurani is the personification of pure sentiment, and the leader of Her opposition party Srimati Candravalli has more intelligence, also I've heard Srila Sridhar Maharaj comicly explain how Sri Balaram personifies this sumedhasar... spiritual intelligence, maybe that is why the Gopis get a little intimidated by those sakya bullies that think the girls are just a bunch of tree huggers. But at the end of the day we all know the design Krsna loves most, which does bring me back to the miracle of love and it's various developments.

 

This is what brought me to make my comment, as i was still thinking simultaneously on Guruvani 's witty remark about eyelashes and their drawbacks, but lets face it Father knows best, even if His creation and expansions differ with Him at moments, when their union is temporarily thwarted, be it for a second or a whole adolescence, absense makes the heart grow fonder as we can understand even from our level, vipralamba is higher, what to speak of those natures who endlessly live and die in every moment, with and without Him.

The real wonder I find is the way He has created us with these feelings that can erupt, swell or contract according to a whole range of tangibles, and there He is in the engine room of every jiva fine tuning those programs to look for Him. Talk about playing a flute and chewin' gum at the same time.

 

No doubt he is always intelligently designing ever-new lilas of exchange with his intimate parasadas, and i was thinking how this is the Supreme alchemy that all clever thinking conniseurs of existence like Srila Rupa Goswami with his Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, should cast their meditation and engage their energy towards, it's an art, it is a science, and I suppose in the final annalysis it's the greatest gift He could bestow..

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj has talked about Swami Maharaj Prabhupad as having an inclination towards both sakya and and madhura rasa, and we understand his instruction of finding a balance in this world of sentiment and knowledge, heart and mind, other wise we may just be taken as a bunch of fundermental luna tics or dry philosophical control freaks maniplulating the material energy. But ultimately Mahaprabhu exemplefied the Luna tic dynasty as he kissed goodbye to his childhood panditry to share His inconceivable sentiments with His closest servitors in Sri Gambhira.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj has talked about Swami Maharaj Prabhupad as having an inclination towards both sakya and and madhura rasa,

that is because the associates of Lord Nityananda have madhurya-rasa with Balarama and sakhya-rasa with Krishna.

 

It's my little secret how I figured that out!

 

Balaram has gopis too!!!!!

 

I am VERY partial to the camp of Srila Prabhupada!!!!!

 

You heard it first, right here on Audarya forums....

 

Kshamabuddhi

[theist 1]

It's all very good to see see so deeply. You all are going beyond the intellectual plane for sure but this thread is a little more down to earth. While we swoon over the prospect of Goloka billions of humans here on this planet are still conceiving of themselves as matter an existence to result of a random bumping together of molecules.

 

Lila talk can be kept too another thread please.

[theist 1]

 

from p. 1

 

A well known scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture a little old lady got up and said, "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really supported on the back of a giant tortoise". The scientist gave a superior smile and said, "But what is the tortoise standing on?" The little old lady replied, "You're very very clever young man, very clever. But it's turtles, turtles, turtles all the way down!"

 

A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes

Stephen Hawkings with intro by Carl Sagan

 

That is funny. But even though Sagan and Hawkings were/are so incredibly intelligent in their fields they still don't know that they are distinct from their bodies. They know so much of so many things but nothing of the essence.

 

Scholar Crossing the River....

[Ayodhya 0]

 

That is funny. But even though Sagan and Hawkings were/are so incredibly intelligent in their fields they still don't know that they are distinct from their bodies. They know so much of so many things but nothing of the essence.

 

Scholar Crossing the River....

 

Sagan and Hawkings are both very open-minded and amazing scientists. Only a few scientists can say with such humor that it is possible for the Universe to exist on the back of a tortoise.

 

Sagan, specifically, has stated in a couple of his books that the Hindu religion is the only one which coincides the best with modern day science.

[theist 1]

 

Sagan and Hawkings are both very open-minded and amazing scientists. Only a few scientists can say with such humor that it is possible for the Universe to exist on the back of a tortoise.

 

Sagan, specifically, has stated in a couple of his books that the Hindu religion is the only one which coincides the best with modern day science.

Perhaps but he is still an atheist. I believe the tortoise remark was a little sarcastic humor.

 

Any truly open minded scientist must realize that there is a Supreme Intelligence behind this phenomenal world.

[Guest guest]

 

Perhaps but he is still an atheist. I believe the tortoise remark was a little sarcastic humor.

 

Any truly open minded scientist must realize that there is a Supreme Intelligence behind this phenomenal world.

 

A sweeping statement.

 

In other words, you are of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with your ideas is close minded. To make such a statement, you must be of the opinion that you know better than all the scientists (people you never met).

 

You are a good example of a very open minded person and you are certainly justified in your cause of getting scientists to open up their minds or to put it differently, to switch to your worldview.

[theist 1]

 

A sweeping statement.

 

In other words, you are of the opinion that anyone who disagrees with your ideas is close minded. To make such a statement, you must be of the opinion that you know better than all the scientists (people you never met).

 

You are a good example of a very open minded person and you are certainly justified in your cause of getting scientists to open up their minds or to put it differently, to switch to your worldview.

It is a simple thing guest. There is either a Supreme Intelligence or there is not. Scientists are of different minds here. So one group will be right and the other group will be wrong. Simple.

 

An example of an open minded scientist would be the agnostic. He honestly admits he does not know but will follow the facts where they lead. That is open minded.

 

Now since there is no proof that a Supreme Intelligence is NOT everywhere at work from the atom to the movements of the planets on what basis does the atheistic scientist make the assertion the is no Intelligent Designer? Do you see the point? He must be speaking from his own prejudiced (thereby closed) mind.

 

Now even atheistic scientists may appear to have open minds, and they do but only in the ways of discussing new theories and learnings on the mechanics of how things work. Once the Supreme Engineer and Mechanic is brought up they close up like a clam.

 

The opponents of Intelligent Design being taught in schools is based on a the same prejudice against God. They say it themselves with statements like "The reason we oppose Intelligent Design is because it is one step of teaching about God in schools. The reason is because once you accept ID then you must ask whose intelligence and that points directly to there being a God." So they are obvious closed to the idea of God.

 

Why do you posture your criticism with comments about this being my idea? I am not the originator of the understanding of ID. So it is not about agreeing or disagreeing with me in the slightest. I have come to appreciate ID by hearing from others.

 

If one "listens" closely you can perceive this Supreme Intelligence all around you. When you appreciate the simple growth of a tree the wonder of the Intelligence that organizes such a thing should come into one's mind as well. But that mind must be open to it.

 

This is one form of God consciousness/awareness and we should all be open to it.