is there eternal hell fire for the unsaved?

[matadevi 0]

is there eternal hell fire for the unsaved? i know that at one end of asia is the belief in transmigration known as reincarnation, to the buddhist merging into the void , for the mayavati merging into bramajoti, temporarily according to the vaishnava, and to the vaishnava reincarnating until the jivatma learns his/her lesson and goes back to vishnu or krishna loka.

okay fine, but on the western end of asia is the belief in ressurection and judgement culminating on the last day. when the human family is judged by the Alpha-Omega, the I AM, Adonai Elohim or Yahaveh Jehovah Jira who will judge the quick and the dead living and non living, all brought back to life to be judged, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim believe in the last day and standing before an Holy God. i know some say non-sense interpretation, but it was widely believed even by faithful prophets and pilgrims, not shysters and liars who is telling the truth ?

[jagatpurush 0]

quotes from the bible or koran about this?

 

i do know from my catholic background that there is a simultaneous contradictory belief that a) when you die you go to heaven and b) you remain 'in the ground'? until the judgment day. then what, you go to heaven as a rotted corpse? God comes and judges all the rotted corpses? to me, it seems like a materialistic idea. therefore i am interested to see what are the actual scriptural references for this belief.

 

if we do have to wait until judgement day to go to heaven, then what do we do until then? just chill? go to limbo?

[muralidhar_das 0]

 

In his commentary to Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Srila Prabhupada mentions that there are three scriptures of the meat eaters. The Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Koran. These books are not eternal scriptures, like the Vedas.

 

In the Vedas, there is no mention of any such thing as an eternal hell. A person may live in a hellish circumstance for a time, in order to make up for his exceedingly bad karma (people who eat meat, etc). But nobody will go to hell forever.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur states in his Bhagavata lecture:

<blockquote>

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and

tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a

local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and

the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many

more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are

84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton

has described in his 'Paradise Lost' . These are certainly poetical and were

originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of

the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of

philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in

some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and

accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not

to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to

improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata , certainly tells us a state of

reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation.

All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as

statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old

traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of

their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the

Bh.gavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata

preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the

atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a

religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.

</blockquote>

 

 

[Gauracandra 1]

It is my belief that Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) established certain belief systems as a way of shutting the door forever to certain pathways of the mind. It is unfortunate, but our freedom of thought gives us the ability to freely choose to destroy ourselves. Christians don't believe in complete free thought by labeling certain thoughts as blasphemous. The maze of the mind is so complex that many people fall into endless speculation and simply go around and around in circles and never get out.

 

Thus in order to assist people in "getting out" rather than just spinning their wheels, certain systems were set up. Let me give a few examples:

 

1) Suicide - In Catholicism suicide is said to forever damn the soul to hell. Does it really? I don't know. Personally I believe the development of this doctrine was as follows. Man naturally can fall into despair (the thoughts go down a certain pathway in the maze of the mind) and he can never get out. He spirals downwards in despair and commits suicide. His life becomes purposeless. The thinkers in the Catholic church saw that this was a natural tendency among mankind to get into this part of the maze, to despair, to see no way out, and so they wanted to forever shut the mind off from that path of thoughts. You are not allowed to think of suicide. That path is forever shut down. Why? The stated reason is you are damned to hellfire for eternity. Thats a pretty good block. The actual reason I think is to keep the mental health of society, to keep hope alive even in the most desperate times.

 

2) Conversion - another view is if you don't convert you go to hell. Partly this was a smart marketting move in that it gave an impetus to convert from those faiths that didn't have this doctrine. I mean if Christians say I'm going to hell if I'm not Christian, and Buddhists say I'm not going to hell if I'm Christian, then to be on the safe side I'll convert to Christianity.

 

But there is a deeper reason I believe. I think again the thinkers in the Catholic church realized that when we view life as simply one day merging into the next, we lose traction. We start to spin our wheels again. We need an impetus to actually change our character. We need something to tell us "No more lazying about. Make a decision and act on it." I'll give you an example. I see myself all the time thinking "If I become Krishna Conscious in this life or not its alright. I'll make it up in my next life." There is a tendency to think that since I'm eternal, whats another life, or another life again after that. We don't have a "mechanism" in place that forces people to come to a singular point of action. Its more fluid and open ended. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Again, this has dire consequences on the minds of those that approach life in this manner.

 

Part of the reason I believe Western Civilization grew so strongly is because their ideas are about coming to a point. From personal experience I've seen this. A simple example I've given before. I'm a westerner and I'm very punctual. To me time is linear. If I'm coming to your house for dinner and you say its at 8 pm, I'm expecting the food to be on the table at 8 pm. Not 9:30 or 10 pm. But I've seen Indians who view time as this sort of approximation. When I have arrived at their home at 7:30 and the dinner isn't served till 9 I usually feel a bit annoyed. They simply view 8 o'clock as being like 9:30 or 10. Its all one, its all fluid. If you don't eat this lifetime you can eat next lifetime. A bit of a joke, but its a clear cultural difference between East and West. This is not a stereotype. I've experienced it too many times.

 

3) Confession - Not so much on your topic, but still dealing with mental health and being able to move on. I believe again the thinkers in the Catholic church saw that people want to unload their thoughts. If you have something eating you up inside, it rots you out, and stagnates. So they developed something called 'confession' which is a way of letting light and fresh air into your heart. I once had a psychology professor tell our class "You should sit down one day and just write down everything in your heart. All your pains and sorrows. Then once it is all out just burn the paper and move on. You will feel much better over the long run."

 

I tend to believe Catholic priests were a sort of mental health professionals, people who studied the human mind and saw that certain thoughts made the mind diseased. To cure that disease required certain measures. Sometimes it meant cutting off certain avenues of thought in order to help guide the mind back to some level of health and balance. With a healthy society the culture could move forward and progress.

 

Anyways, those are my thoughts. A bit rambling. To me, eternal hellfire is simply one method to try to get people to come to a decision making point and rectify their lives. It cuts off certain avenues and gives impetus to move forward in the right direction.

[gHari 0]

I call it the material world, and its 8,400,000 life forms that seem to take an eternity to transmigrate through. I ain't goin' back there nowhow.

 

[theist 1]

Hell is eternal but the soul need not always dwell here. We are the unsaved, the bound up jivas, chained by our carnal desires. It is we who have been cast into outer darkness.

 

It's not that hell is some future fate for others. The thing the Christians and others don't get is that the judgement has been rendered, and we are now serving our sentence.

[Guest guest]

Seven things that make hell.

 

Four stages of material existance, birth, death, with old age and disease in the middle.

 

Add to that trouble from social and natural forces, plus the self inflicted disease of mental illness, all equals hell.

 

No we dont go there. Lord Jesus goes there to retrieve us who live there. God descends to hell thru his representative to see if we have had enough.

 

haribol, mahak

 

Hey gHari, hope you be well, I was thinkin of you watching the Victoria day parade.

[matadevi 0]

hell isn't the gehenna where they burned rubbish and dead bodies on the outskirts of jerusalem, no , not at all!

 

Hell is the everlasting wrath of an everlasting Father(YAHAVEH''I AM'' , JEHOVAH JIRA '' I PROVIDE THE CHRLDRENS BREAD'', ADONAI , ''I AM ONE'', ELOHIM, '' I AM ANOINTED, ''FATHER , SON, HOLY SPIRIT'', who created Lucifer the bright and shining star, who was beloved by God until iniguity was found in him!'' endless grievous sin''that is what iniquity is.

 

When Job who never blasphemed the name of God'' to insult or offend'' he still started to question God's judgmenet on him, since he was an innocent man. But God said ''Now , stand like a man, and I will answer thee,''Where were you when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare to me if you have understanding?! '' or, ''who hath laid the measurements thereof, if you know , tell me! or who has stretched the line upon it?''

where then are it's foundations fashioned , or who laid it's corner stone thereof?!!! ...When all the Stars(Angelic Sons of the very God) shouted for joy!''

 

I know i am wording up God here, no what else? i am hipping you all to the angelic realm according to the Holy Bible. Notice when God said he stretced the earths foundations to their limit, he says, '' All the Sons of God'' shouted for joy. NOw there is no mistaking the angelic realm are likened unto the stars in the skys. yes, yes, not retort and say i am saying the material stars in the skies are actually the same angels that are spiritual beings, they are likened to the light giving material stars that many times are called Stars of Heaven. Anyway there is no mention here of a lucifer the light bringer rebelling against an Holy God. this excerpt was from the 38th book of job in the old testament.

 

Jesus,"Hell was created for the devil and his angels'' the book of matthew

but the unsaved go with him,the devil.

 

Revelation 20:10 '' And the devil that did deceive the whole world was cast in the fire of brimstone along with the beast and the false prophet were they wiil be tormented day and night forever and ever.'' the beast and the false prophet haven't appeared yet, but don't worry , they will.

 

Revelation 20:15'' And whosoever's name was not found written in the Lamb's book of life who was crucified before the foundation of the world, was cast in the lake of eternal fire.''

 

non sense interpretation aye? what if it is true???

[matadevi 0]

This isn't the real hell! you wanna know why? because this hell however long it lasts will terminate.

 

Hell fire never dies, life is eternal yes! in one of two places!!!!

 

you aint seen nothin yet!

[matadevi 0]

you cannot reincarnate or use any human power to leave hell.

 

read the story of the poor beggar lazurus.

 

the rich man ate a sumptuous feast every day he was alive except ofcourse when he had indigestion, and being rich he could afford to buy anything to make him well again so he could go back to his favorite pastime eating!, i am not putting down the overweight because i am , but i digress,

lazurus was so poor and starving from mal nourishment the contact with the outside elements that he was constantly out in , except those few times some one took the poor ole fella in for a roof and probably some soup and bread, other than that he was wasting away to death, even dogs came and licked his sores!!

 

so when they both died Lazurus was in Heaven with Father Abraham being comforted by him. and across a chasam was the rich man who ate and dined and lived like the fat cat ruler he was ..now in hell fire. he calls to Father Abraham,''Send Lazurus with a cool wet cloth to wet my tongue for i am tormented and i thirst in this flame. and Father Abraham replied, '' NO, that wouldn't be fair because in your life you had all good things and never once aided or comforted this poor man, and now he is being comforted and it your turn to suffer.''

 

by the way the rich ruler is not in the actual hell fire he is in hades or gehenna, a temporary place of torment . The last day is yet to happen, he , the ruler, is in a waiting place called hades, the temporary hell the Bhaktivinode Thakur discuss'es. Yes, Vaishnava's are very intelligent and have deep knowledge about many things but the God , the rebellion of the devil, and the last day is sanatandharma 101. even a muslim , who is ignorant about who Christ really is , has this basic knowledge.!!!

[theist 1]

You say no one reincarnates out of hell. So you are describing God as a monster. Someone sins for 70 years and God punishes them for eternity.

 

That is not a description of God activities. I personally would not want to be in the same room with such a being let alone worship eternally.

 

What does your Bible tell you about the attractive nature of God? This is what is needed, attraction for the presence of the Lord not fear and aversion.

[Guest guest]

Problem with the Koran and the Bible for all their holy and good instruction, is that they have been manipulated to play on the jivas fears. If they just stuck with the essence of Jesus 'sermon on the mount' there would be much less seperate interest with others.

You follow this and no other scripture or into the flames with ya. Holya than thou politics.

There is something about Srila Bhaktivinode that is so fatherly and reassuring, he is a harbinger of hope and confidence, and his realizations are very comforting.

Once these religionists get their hooks into you with fear and threats of eternal hellfire it's difficult to throw that shadow from your consciouness. But in a sense we are also being cautioned against impersonalism in a similar way.

All glories to those merciful Lords Sri Sri Nitai and Gauranga.

[theist 1]

Hell doesn't exist for the Krsna conscious soul. Only Krsna does, both personally and as His various energies. So what does such a soul have to fear?

 

In the psalms David expresses the same realization.

 

Psalm 139

1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.

2You know my sitting down and my rising up;

You understand my thought afar off.

3You comprehend my path and my lying down,

And are acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word on my tongue,

But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.

5You have hedged me behind and before,

And laid Your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;

It is high, I cannot attain it.

7Where can I go from Your Spirit?

Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8If I ascend into heaven, You are there;

If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

9If I take the wings of the morning,

And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,

10Even there Your hand shall lead me,

And Your right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me,"

Even the night shall be light about me;

12Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,

But the night shines as the day;

The darkness and the light are both alike to You....

[muralidhar_das 0]

you said to me:

"non sense interpretation aye? what if it is true??? "

 

I don't believe in the Bible or Christianity. I believe in none of it.

 

There are just too many stories in the Bible that I will never accept. And the type of God we read about in the Bible is not the sort of person I want to worship. Specifically, the answers Jehovah gave to Job are harsh and unkind. But the true God is not unkind. He appears as Sri Krishna Chaitanya just to save the fallen souls.

 

Satan, Adam and Eve = and Noah's boat full of elephants and dinosaurs and turkeys = they are only stories made up by some meat-eating people living in the desert.

[matadevi 0]

Here right from the bible theist,give a listen:''It is not the Heavenly Fathers will that any should perish, (spiritually ofcourse), but that all should come to the knowledge of salvation.''

Vaishnava's always read spiritually, but if they find something condratictory to their own beliefs, they'll dismiss it as false, or as in the case of the old testament and new testament gospels it has been tampered with.

Everything will seem condratictory in the bible until you see it spiritually, got some nerve don't i? who am i to say to a strictly following disciple such as yourself .. i don't blame for feeling that way atall. okay i digress, here is the spiritual teaching from beginning to end.

 

okay i have to start with blood sacrifices. yuk ..typical akarmi christian talkin about blood how typical. right?

wrong!

in every instance where Abba Hashem, (Father God), says that the smell of blood is an detestible thing and is a stench in my nostrils and ofcourse to kill an ox is to kill a man; there is an equal verse in the bible where Abba Hashem says,"A sacrifice of a sweet savor and a pungent frangant smell in my nostrils'' talkin about roasted meat, oh yes!...a shizophrenic God? can't make up his mind? no, as the vaishnava devotee is so famous for saying , ''you have to read it in context'' when the people are disobedient God says regarding their meat sacrifice'' a detesible smell'' and ofcourse the reply on your part would be''sure God was ticked about mans ugly killing for food'' then how come when he decribes roasted meat in a sacrifice as a sweet savor, but then turns around and yays''I detest you as a people, hey, but that rack of ribs there smell pretty good though!!!''

it's laughable isn't it?

Jesus said lucifer was a liar and a murderer from the very start. his disobedience toward God brought sin into the world. The material world and the spiritual world are more intertwined then you may believe. In the book of Job, the prophet, peace be unto him! God asks the devil where do you come from now? and the devils reply, to and fro and up and down all over the earth. our original dna parents Adam and Eve gave up lordship of the earth to the devil who brought murder to the animal and to the man. In the beginning all human beings ate vegetables, grains and fruits, and nut and all manner of plant and seed giving foods. It actually says God was distressed to let man to eat animals, but he isn't going to condemn meat eater or plant eater to hell, so already he is more fair , that is both to mellechas and meat eaters that vaishnavism dismisses and a God who meat eaters and vegetarians alike follow. Lucifer's rebellion against God caused an eternal rift, called INIQUITY. Iniquity is unforgiven, unrepentant, non stop , no end , grows more powerful when not stopped and in short is eternal. i am sorry , God will prevail in the end, but inquitity will be taken to it's source, and it's source is non other than satan the devil. the devil and his angels (fallen angels) will be cast into an eternal flame that will burn as long as God lives, forever. but humnas will go there to ...which brings me back to sacrifice... animal sacrifices are not relishhed by God...so why did he tolerate them in the olden days? because they served am important purpose..to deflect Gods wrath.. they are (the animals ) a substitute for our lifes blood to be shed.''

have you not read '' Fear of the Lord God is the beginning of wisdom!!''

Jesus was your and my blood sacrifice for our sins, this is why we (karmi christians as you call us , believers as we call each other) but i digress, this is why we say That Gods wrath was poured out on Jesus for our iniquities and he turn away when he saw total sin on Jesus. This is why we say Jesus said ''Eli...Eli..la' ma' sa' bach thani''or Father ...Father why has though forsaken me?''

 

i know non sense interpretation.. wrong! we are showing the pure agony the Christ went through for us, when The Eternal Word that was with the Father in the beginning, and became flesh as the Christ, even Y'shua or Jesus was for a split second serarated by a loving heavenly Father, it was like eternal torment for him! get it? and sin is so terrible and a abominalable thing to an Holy God, that he even had to turn away from his own Son, even if for a millisecond. i don't know if it was a millisecond or not in actual meaterial measuring but it was like eternity to Jesus! It couldn't have been too long in seconds because God was overseer and heart broken over his Son beign crushed on the cross for us..it didn't stop God to use his power house spiritual power to raise the Christ to life...He (God) defeated death by bringing Jesus to life.

 

Remember John 16?: ''For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son , that whomsoever believeth in him(Jesus)will not perish but have eternal life''

 

See a loving God who wants to save us.

 

you see theist , it isn't going to be a half evil God half good God that never really existed, or atleast our, (christian and jewish interpretion of Jehovah) is false to you.

 

but from a believers perspective(believer in Christ), sin is an eternal rift of inquity separating us from a God who hates inquity, resulting in Gods wrath towrd sin manifested as an eternal lake of sulphur and brimstone, and this rift of inquitiy was caused by satan the devil also known as lucifer for whom the lake of fire was created for originally. God din't want theist to perish , he did all he could even having his son die in his place , because the wages of sin is death and all have sinned and deserve death or will receive death if you must hear it that wsy God did all he could do to save us and the devil sin will drag you into hell except for the sacrifice that Christ made for you. This is the favorable attribute of the God of the Bible: A loving , caring, patient, and providing Father. If wrath is a part of his personality, then understand his greatness, he created the pretty flower and he also created the roaring lion and majestic siberian tiger. He is an swesome God ..praise him!

 

[theist 1]

Did you read Psalm 139? Did you understand it? Did you sense the beauty in David's words?

 

BTW I experienced rebirth through Christ in 1969. Changed my life big time. But my path is not in the Bible. I have no interest in Jewish history even though my grandmother was Jewish on my mothers side so according to them I have a Jewish soul. What a non-sense term that is. I accept the concept of equal souls as taught in Upanishads and Gita.

 

The questions I have are not answered in the Bible. Jesus told His disciples that he had many others truths to tell them but that could not handle them at that time, but that he would send the Holy Spirit to them to teach them and lead them into all truth.

 

The Bible contains some nice things. I appreciate the few teaching we have from Christ and proverbs of Solomen which are similar to those of Chanakya but superior in my opinion and the Song of Songs also. Many of David's psalms are wonderful.

 

But the book as a whole, which is a collection of writings of various prophets and influencial men of that culture I in no way way accept as the infalliable word of God.

 

As a Christian I have a question for you. last week I met two very nice Jehovah's Witnesses on the street and we spoke for two hours. One thing is that their Bible has the name of jehovah still in it whereas all the other English translations have taken out the name of God an replaced it with God or the Lord etc.

 

I believe this is a big mistake. What do you think?

[matadevi 0]

Yes, David realized that God sees even into the depths of the deepest seas. no what else? He sees and has seen every sinful and horrible act all the way back to the beginning and it is a stench in his nostrils! don't believe it?

 

When we stand before the Ancient of Days, we will either be vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy.

 

and by the way with vaishnava logic, it would be tempting to say that Yahaveh and Yamaraja are one and the same. only problem with this is ...Yahaveh doesn't reside in the underworld with his yamadutas, no , he is an Holy God of all light who lives above and beyond in the Heavenly Kingdom with millions upon millions of angelic beings serving him night and day. again with vaishnava logic well, then Jehovah must be brahmaji. no, wrong again, the Heaven above and beyond is eternal , and will not be destroyed when Shiva starts banging his din din drum. sorry folks, The God of the bible is the true and living God.

 

don't forget theist '' Fear of the Lord is the beginning of understanding''

[matadevi 0]

that suicide sends you to hell fire, as believed by catholics and protestants alike is false. why? it's not in the bible! God knows who is and isn't saved , alone. now, i know that we christians have dropped the ball many times, and some of us have peculiar speculative beliefs, but that is human nature. But as far as an eternal hell fire that has been ignited by a heavenly war, and it is a heavenly war read the book of ephesians chapter 6 : 12 on, between the Holy God and the god of this world, the devil.

and if you don't believe in the devil , that's okay with him because that means he already has you decieved.

 

like i said before it is the other faiths and teachings that miss the mark. An Holy God and and a rebellious satan that is what the heavenly battle is about, and we, the human race, are the ransom

 

''I came to give my life as a ransom for many'' Jesus Christ

 

We aren't trying to shut minds but trying to teach wisdom 101, but if the pharisees of the present day, yup you vaishnavas, strict muslims, buddhists , zoroastrians etc... are blind then what can be said.

 

yup you are just like the blind pharisees of Jesus's day, intelligent, wise in many ways , strict in your faith, and blind to the truth!!!!

 

the pharisees and scribes of Jesus day weren't sense gratifying meaterialists! try going without food twice a week to understand what a pharisee was. i remember i used to hate ecotisy, i am spelling it wrong i know , when we couldn't eat any grain, how about not eating at all twice a week. i am sure the pharisees ate some meat, but not much i am sure and didn't live to eat meat, their diet was no doubt 90 % vegetarian, still if there wasn't anything kosher to eat ..these guys would starve first!

 

not their following of religions is what thier fault was ,no not all! it was who is this Jesus

 

''Before Abraham was born, I AM'' said Jesus and the pharisees and scribes took up stones to kill him for claiming equality to God. oh yes, infact they knew what they were doing. this is called blasphemy and deserves death by stoning. if he was teaching reincarnation they would have laughed him to scorn. they believed in resurrection , all the eternal energy that makes up this flesh body reunited with the essential human the Spirit, to stand before the Ancient of Days to be judged. it is then that we will be transformed into totally spiritual beings

non sense interpretation!?

wrong again !

 

Remember what God said to King David? ''I am the God of all flesh and for me nothing is impossible''

 

remember fear of the Lord God is the beginning of knowledge!

[theist 1]

 

 

 

Yes, David realized that God sees even into the depths of the deepest seas. no what else? He sees and has seen every sinful and horrible act all the way back to the beginning and it is a stench in his nostrils! don't believe it?

 

 

Why not stick to the essence of David's Psalm? His faith and understanding in the protection and guidance of the omnipresent Lord? Why immediately run from that and try to take shelter in this foul smell hell fire stuff.

 

Which do you prefer matadevi, the sweet scent of David's realization or the stench of some hell fire and damnation preacher?

 

I prefer David's theme and I will hear from those that express it over the other. It's all a question of acquired taste and we tend to acquire the tastes of those we associate with.

 

 

When we stand before the Ancient of Days, we will either be vessels of wrath or vessels of mercy.

 

 

Well when Vaisnavas are before the Lord and away from his "immediate presence" that are the same. Always chanting His glories and Holy Names and in this way are His vessels of mercy in the form of Krsna prema.

 

Are you familar with the way Prahlada was when before Narasimha? Narasimha was very angry at Hiranyakasipu but Prahlada was not afraid, indeed he pacified the Lord's angry mood with his love and sweet prayers.

 

We worship the devotee Prahlad and beg his mercy upon us.

 

 

and by the way with vaishnava logic, it would be tempting to say that Yahaveh and Yamaraja are one and the same.only problem with this is ...Yahaveh doesn't reside in the underworld with his yamadutas, no , he is an Holy God of all light who lives above and beyond in the Heavenly Kingdom with millions upon millions of angelic beings serving him night and day. again with vaishnava logic well, then Jehovah must be brahmaji. no, wrong again, the Heaven above and beyond is eternal , and will not be destroyed when Shiva starts banging his din din drum. sorry folks, The God of the bible is the true and living God.

 

 

Yes as an Indian Christian you are very self assured that you know all about this Vaisnava stuff and all these gods that you have heard about from childhood, right? Sorry to inform you that you are misguided.

 

Yamaraja is a demigod who works for the Supreme Lord, he is not the Cause of All Causes who you refer to as Yahaveh. He can be seen like the warden of a state prision. The warden lives on or near the prision grounds but is not a prisoner himself. No is he independent, he answers to the Govenor who lives in the mansion in the capital.

 

Here again we can learn more from David who recognized God as being even in hell, and how even darkness was the same as light to the Lord.

 

I especially love the verses that I marked in bold above. Please reread them.

 

Is Brahma the Supreme Lord? No. Again he is just an employee. Once Brahma was called to Vishnu's court. When he arrived he was asked which Brahma are you? he was astonished as he thought he was the only one. then he was shown all the other Brahma's that had been called there and he understood that he was just a tiny Brahma of a tiny universe in the midst of unlimited number of others.

 

No of course God is not subject to the destructive forces of this or any other universe. In Vaisnava circles that would not even be a question. Shiva also worships the Supreme Lord as servant.

 

 

don't forget theist '' Fear of the Lord is the beginning of understanding''

 

 

Yes but why stay at the begiining level forever? The Bible also says "Perfect love casts out all fear" Jesus told His disciples "be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." So this is the Vaisnava goal to be perfect in perfect love with the Supreme Lord. We choose to follow Christ's example not some maniac wrath filled so-called hell fire and damnation preacher. We think you should make a similar choice matadevi.

 

Be careful who you hear from.

 

[matadevi 0]

Actually as a term of respect and reverence God is referred to most times as the Lord.

 

Jesus referred to God as Abba , my Father. I suppose we could read it as Abba, but my Father sounds more personal.

 

God as our Father and our Lord , it is translated in english this way to make it more personal for us , thats all. It's not an insult to Jehovah jira, ''our provider'' which is what Jehovah means anyway.

 

Jesus could have said,''My Jehovah or Provider in Heaven''

sounds less personal than Abba Father doesn't it.

 

Theist Abba Hashem, ''Father God'' loves you with a deep and personal love, and wants to save you, even allowing his anointed to be crushed on the cross for your sake. and mine.

 

i know you vaishnavas say ,'' oh well , those christians , saying this nonsense about Jesus dieing for everyones sins, hah! and it was after all the jews killing their spiritual master.''

 

let me tell you something friend , as soon a religion utters something nonsensical and anti semitic it is a FALSE RELIGION! yup , and that even goes for some of these anti semitic christian and catholic teachers! they are christians so-called.

 

Jesus didn't have to be crucified ! know how i know? got a bible handy ? open it up at matthew 26: 50 to 53

now, theist, this is where Judas and the scribes pharisees and romans legions came to take Jesus to be executed through crucifixtion, notice what Jesus says '' Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and shall not presently give me 12 legions of Angels to protect me?''

 

here is Yahs pure devotee saying that the Mighty Jehovah , his provider and Father could very easily and mightily rescue him, but doesn't !! get it!!??

 

He (Abba Hashem) is going to allow his beloved Son Jesus , or Y'shua for you jewish folks, be crushed on a tree for our iniquities. get it?? His blood was spilled to pay for our , your and mine, iniquitous sins, and all of upanishads and vedas and gurus in disciplic succession can't save you from your sin nature that is head long on it's way to eternal death!!!

 

The long awaited Messiach of the jewish people is also the Messiah of us goyim''gentiles''. Isaiah prophesied that he would be one that even the gentiles would trust in.

 

Even if the pharisees, sadducees, zoroastrians, Jehovah witnesses, vaishnavas, muslims, buddhists don't know who the Christ is .. doesn't mean he isn't the Christ!''The annointed Messiah''

 

I talked to Jehovah witnesses to, and when the argument got to be useless, i told them, "okay you don't believe in hell at all, (they believe the unsaved become maggot food and thats it)you don't believe there is a hell at all right, well if you are right and i am wrong well when i die they'll chunk me into the miry clay and i'll never exist again, but if you are wrong and i accept your view , there will be eternal hell to pay, and the payment will be my very soul!''

and that is what i finally say to you vaishnavas, if you are right and i am wrong, well, when i die , i'll stand before yamaraja and the yamadutas will beat the daylights out of me and transmigrate up trought the animal kingdom back to the human platform, but if i accept your view , an eternal hell fire awaits me, i'll take my chance with Abba Father and his loving and gracious Son Jesus who according to the Apostle Paul , a jew by the way, who said'' It is Jesus who loved you and gave his life for you'' you know who that message is for?.........you ...and ....me!

[matadevi 0]

theist if you were on a boat and enjoying with your friends say, and a helicoptor appeared to you all on the boat that you had better turn back there is a sunami coming and you are in it's path , but you and your guests dimiss it as nonsensical, would it be the warners fault or yours when that sunami hit? and because you dimissed the sumani as false does that mean it wouldn't reach your boat.

don't like that example ? your house is on fire on the first floor but your enjoying with your friends on the second and don't know it. now the karmi don't the street throws a pepple at your window, your open it up, and the foolish christian says''hey, theist , your whole down stairs is on fire!'' and you start laughing ''ah ha ha, you know that holier than thou christian down the street?...he says the house is on fire!'' and you all start to laugh hahahahahahaha.. will that stop your house from burning down!?

 

hey theist at the bottom of the water fall is not water at all it's an eternal fire awaiting you at lifes end ...quick jump out of the boat ...Jesus is throwing you a life preserver...quick grab it ..let the boat of hell go over the edge...but not you...your eternal soul is way too valubalbe to God..

 

signed another nonsense christian!!!!

[Kulapavana 0]

actually, we are not even interested in getting out of this material world. if God wants us to stay here and preach His glories, and help others find Him - we are His servants, fully surrendered to His will.

 

to us - hell is not loving God, not talking about Him, not singing His glories.

[theist 1]

 

and that is what i finally say to you vaishnavas, if you are right and i am wrong, well, when i die , i'll stand before yamaraja and the yamadutas will beat the daylights out of me and transmigrate up trought the animal kingdom back to the human platform, ...

 

 

No that is not correct. If you are a true woshipper and follower of Jesus Christ you will go to Christ-loka and be with him. There he will teach you further about the nature of the Father for that is His only business.

 

But be not deceived. Not all who claim to be saved and do many great works "in" the name of Jesus will be saved by Jesus. he will say to them "depart from you workers of inquity for I know you not." I forgot the verses but you know where they are.

 

 

 

 

but if i accept your view , an eternal hell fire awaits me,

 

 

Why do you think of God as so cruel? You have a desire to know Him and serve Him so He sees that and will strengthen that and take you home to Him.

 

All jivas return home in due course but then someone has no doubt told you that reincarnation is "of the devil" and so has you infected with false fear.

 

 

 

a jew by the way, ...

 

 

The genetics of his body are of no consequence for all are spiritsoul, parts of God, who I like to call Krsna. It's such an attractive name.

 

 

 

[theist 1]

matadevi, Kulapavanna's answer is also my answer. You are trying to motivate us to accept Christ under the fear of hell. While vaisnava's are busy to learn unmotivated loving service to the Lord.

 

Christ was not a salvationist but modern Christians are only that it seems. Vaisnava's love God because they love God. He is all-attractive so their minds are entranced upon Him. Not because He will save them from hell.

 

If you had understand Psalms 139 you would stop taking of hell. You have become hell conscious by immature association.

 

The Eastern Orthodox have the practice of chanting the Jesus prayer on beads. "Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me." Why don't other Christians take up such a positive practice? There is a gem of a book called The Way of the Pilgrim. perhaps you have heard of it.

[Guest guest]

 

The only origin of fear is lack of harmony. Fear is born through disappointment resulting from lack of harmony. If that does not exist then there is no place for fear.

‘Undesirability’ is represented in Sanskrit as ‘apprehension’ or ‘fear’, and is regarded as something secondary to the Absolute. But how does it reach and become transformed into perfection? If we can introduce many interests into one common interest then there is harmony – no fear, and all is perfect.

At present we are suffering from the mania of separate interest. Only because we have deviated from our common master, our common guardian, we have come to suffer the disease of apprehension. If one master is common to all then no apprehension can arise, we will feel true unity amongst ourselves. If we fall on the ground, then with the

help of the same ground we can again stand.

So forgetfulness of our guardian is the cause of all the disastrous situations in which we find ourselves. The only way to get out of that disaster is to be reinstated in the idea of common guardianship, and that is to be effected by the true sadhus (saintly persons) who have not deviated from God consciousness. With their help we have to appeal

to the all-controlling agency. Then we can be reinstated in that echelon where we have our master under whose holy feet we are to take shelter. If we can accept this, harmony will again be installed in our lives. So we are always to be conscious of our guardian, the highest harmoniser – and that is true God consciousness.

 

Of course the God of the Bible is the true and living God for there is only one God regardless of how many with limited vision may package Him, but the God of the Bible with it's fear and threats of eternal hellfire and damnation is unsatisfactory to those who have received the Graceful conception of Gods Divine Love and beauty as revealed by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with His teachings of far more extended mercy and transcendental knowledge of his Name, form and pastimes.

Jesus may well have delivered some progressive development of the ancient Judaic teachings of Moses and Abraham. But we can't seriously compare these limited insights to the life of Mahaprabhu.

Of course there were many things that couldn't be revealed to the audience of the day or this day either, but Sri Chaitanya has revealed some of those things in full fledged theism. The question is; that if our faith is not sufficiently developed and thereby have the capacity to receive them, how will we ever enter those glorious revelations from the plane of fear of God. Only Prema will gain us entrance to that soil.