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Do they have Varna in Goloka?

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"Do they have Varna System in Goloka?"

 

obviously yes!!! how something that is not in spiritual world can be here?

 

read krsna book and you'll see many people belonging to different social classes, with different mentalities, jobs and behaviours

 

and krsna book speaks of lilas performed in vrindavan that's not different from goloka vrindavan.. or better... vrindavan is another name for goloka

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pedophilie is a perverted form of love.. and abortion is a perverted form of birth

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so why in krsna book we read about kings, cowherds, soldiers, priests, commerce, musicians, wrestlers, dancers etc..?

 

aren't they social classes?... varnas?

 

of course the varnas of the spiritual world have'nt the same nature and motivation of the ones of the material world... but they are undoubtely varnas

 

in spiritual world there's not only krsna and an infinite number of gopis, but there's variety of "colors(=varna)", much more than in the material world... infinitely more

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varna is, by definition - a characteristic of a material body. rasa is, also by definition - a characteristic of a spiritual body. We should stick to the established definitions of the terms we use. That is the Vedic way. Otherwise we are just creating confusion in the listener's (reader's) mind.

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varna means "colour", and generally is a definition for the variety of social classes

 

so.. if we have different social "colours" in the spiritual world, we have also different varnas

 

then.. if you want to say that the variety in the material world depends from conditionament and karma, and that variety in goloka depends from the infinite possible sat/cit/ananda relationships (rasas) between jivas and krsna.. i have no problem

 

but variety is here and there.. so varnas too

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Bhagavad-gita 4.13

 

catur-varnyam maya srishtam

guna-karma-vibhagasah

tasya kartaram api mam

viddhy akartaram avyayam

 

SYNONYMS

 

catuh-varnyam -- the four divisions of human society; maya -- by Me; srishtam -- created; guna -- of quality; karma -- and work; vibhagasah -- in terms of division; tasya -- of that; kartaram -- the father; api -- although; mam -- Me; viddhi -- you may know; akartaram -- as the nondoer; avyayam -- unchangeable.

 

TRANSLATION

 

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

 

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in this verse krsna and srila prabhupad are speaking of the varnas in the human material society, in krsna book or srimad bhagavatam they often speak of the variety of social relationships in the spiritual world..

 

how can i interprete the fact that radharani is vaisya, krsna is something between a ksatrya and a vaisya (this is a contestation of sisupala before being killed by the sudarsan chackra), that kamsa is ksatrya, that sandipani muni is brahmana and so on?

 

if varnas aren't in the spiritual world i can only understand that such variety of relationships that i find in prabhupada's books is maya and the only truth is inpersonal brahman

 

but i do not believe it

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Just as variagatedness exists so do varnas. It has to do with rasa and order. No variety no rasa just brahman. Krsna has created many wonderful systems for the various jivas to relate to according to their inherit propensity to serve in a particular capacity.

Although most may know they transcend such bodily designations, The spiritual body still has various identifications other than Aham Brahmasmi, or even Krsna nitya das and Radha dasyam. Some like Sudama braman for instance are Krsna bandhu--intimate friends, yet in the ksatriya courts of dwaraka the mood and rasa are different, yet it illuminates Krsnas friendship against the background of kasatriya oppulence.

Still in that world all happily work, play and serve within the system that Krsna has very skillfully created for His own pleasure and the fullfillment of His myriad servitors desires, even the gopis, unlike in this world where the heads are in conflict with the arms, legs etc. because they iare not God-centric with common interest, rather they are ego-centric.

It's actually facinating if we observe these infinite exchanges, for not only is Krsna-lila nitya and bliss giving, but every part and atom in his world is filled with infinite and eternal wonder. The warriors, the traders, the brahmans and sudras, within them all there are many special relationships. (How would He experience the joy of attracting the wives of the brahmanas (Gopis) to a higher surrender and sacrifice if not for the mentality of the bramanas that this pastime is couched in?) It is all created in a way so that all souls are ultimately all irresistably attracted around the all-attractive Sri Krishna, enhancing higher tastes and harmonies.

The natures of the varnas produce many extraordinary mellows, yet that in itself isn't the cause of all variety, just part thereof. Gaura Hari Gaura Hari

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yes, it is very simple:

 

the variety of positions in the material world is VARNA

 

the variety of positions in the spiritual world is RASA

 

 

you concoct a theory out of twisting the meaning of the words - just to complicate things? or to show your great understanding? just like you have LUST in the material world, and LOVE in the spiritual world - both terms are precise and clear in their vedic definition.

 

 

your reasoning reminds me of an "abstract joke" like this one: How are Lenin and Napoleon alike? Because they both had beards, except for Napoleon.

 

and as to Krishna's and Radharani's varna: try to realize you are not this body first. Varnas were created by Krishna to FACILITATE THE WORKING OF A PROPER HUMAN CIVILIZATION - nothing more. there is absolutely no need for varnas in the spiritual world, and the interpersonal dealings arise out of each individual's rasa with Krishna.

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sumedh:

"In addition to what kulapavanaji says, you confuse two different meanings of varna -- one is complexion or colour, and the other is caste as in catur-varnyam. "

these meanings are strictly connected, first because to define the social classes as social colours is undoubtely a nice thing.. then because, for example, we know that in vedic society the city's zones when different classes lived, were painted in different colours... another reason is that very often different classes had also different skin colours

 

 

kulapavana:

 

"yes, it is very simple:

the variety of positions in the material world is VARNA

the variety of positions in the spiritual world is RASA

you concoct a theory out of twisting the meaning of the words - just to complicate things? or to show your great understanding?"

 

it seems to me that you have nothing to sustain what you are saying if not judgements about me

 

if you do not want to complicate things it is very simple.. read krsna book and you'll discover a complex social class system with complex social customs...

 

i call it varna... in material world varnas are made by guna and karma, in spiritual world varnas are made by rasas

 

 

" just like you have LUST in the material world, and LOVE in the spiritual world - both terms are precise and clear in their vedic definition."

 

that's a good example... read scriptures and you'll find also the term "kama(=lust)" referred to krsna's/gopi's relationships. Obviously this lust is not the material lust we experience in the material world and it is generated not by egoism but by the pure will to serve sri krsna bhagavan

 

" Varnas were created by Krishna to FACILITATE THE WORKING OF A PROPER HUMAN CIVILIZATION "

 

when krsna does something he fulfills infinite tasks.. one thing to say is that the social organization of the material world is nothing but a perverted reflection of the social organization in the spiritual world

 

there's nothing missing in vaikunta

 

 

 

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"nothing is missing in vaikunta"

 

sure there is... Krishna's pastimes in Vrindavan are not entirely "straight out of spiritual world". For one thing, Krishna does not display His "bala" (early childhood) pastimes, nor there are threats and demons in Vaikuntha. there are other differences as well, but these two should be sufficient to prove my point. again: just stick to the established definitions of what is varna and what is rasa.

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Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

these meanings are strictly connected, first because to define the social classes as social colours is undoubtely a nice thing.. then because, for example, we know that in vedic society the city's zones when different classes lived, were painted in different colours...

 

 

 

This is a very strange argument and only appears like your attempt to unnecessarily hold on to your stand come whatever may. On one hand we have the meaning of varna as in "krsna-varna" which means colour like Krsna i.e. dark monsoon cloud, now you interpret it as meaning or related to "caste of Krsna" or what? or like "gaura-varna" which means molten golden colour. The other is varna as in caste; there is no relation between the two meanings other than the ones made by British when they "rewrote" vedic texts and by yourself as above.

 

 

another reason is that very often different classes had also different skin colours

 

 

 

Whatever gives you this idea, and how has this got any relation with varna as in caste. Maybe you can explain to us what the different colours of skin of different castes are; this will indeed make identifying the natural qualities of a person quite easy, no.

 

 

i call it varna... in material world varnas are made by guna and karma, in spiritual world varnas are made by rasas

 

 

 

Your calling it varna is of no significance other than creating deliberate confusion, when it directly contradicts vedic definitions.

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"just stick to the established definitions of what is varna and what is rasa. "

 

i would accept very happily your advice if you had given demonstration that i am speculating new meanings for ancient concepts

 

the fact that in goloka vrindavan, differently from "earthly" vrindavan there's no asuras is not a demonstration that there's no social variety.. so varnas and ashramas

 

i think that in goloka there's ksatryas as nanda maharaja

 

brahmanas as sandipani muni

 

and vaisyas as the gopis

 

and that they have a variety of dependent workers and servants

 

(demons are not something missing, demons are simply pervertion of the pure rasas, like putana who acts as a pervert mother trying to kill krsna feeding with his breast)

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On one hand we have the meaning of varna as in "krsna-varna" which means colour like Krsna i.e. dark monsoon cloud, now you interpret it as meaning or related to "caste of Krsna" or what? or like "gaura-varna" which means molten golden colour.

--no... only acharyas can interprete the language of scriptures and use the ethymology to preach.. simply is not so difficult to relate one meaning of varna who is colour, with the other meaning who is social class. Logically is more difficult to accept that a word could have opposite and unrelated meanings...

 

Maybe you can explain to us what the different colours of skin of different castes are; this will indeed make identifying the natural qualities of a person quite easy, no.

--that's simply an attempt to ridiculize me and to make me appear as racist by having no arguments.. if you read srimad bhagavatam, when maharaja pariksit finds kali he identifies him as a sudra because he has dark complexion. Of course in kali yuga we are all sudras so every discrimination is useless

 

Your calling it varna is of no significance other than creating deliberate confusion, when it directly contradicts vedic definitions.

--i understand that you can read in my mind and you can recognise that i have the precise will to create confusion among devotees... but i understand also that you have no arguments to discuss logically or scripturally..

 

and it is not a lesser important subject, if we cut out portions of variety from the spiritual world, we soon fall in impersonalism and mayavadism

 

hare krishna!

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Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

only acharyas can interprete the language of scriptures and use the ethymology to preach..

 

 

 

Any demonstrations are only useful if you would be in a mental state to accept them. They have already been given before in this thread; this is the definition of varna (as in caste) given by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-Gita and accepted by all our acharyas:

BG 18.41-44

 

Brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.

 

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness -- these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.

 

Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kshatriyas.

 

Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.

 

 

 

There is no mention of colour, yet you want to link the two based solely on two different meanings of the word. As already explained by Kulapavana prabhu and given above as definition that varnas (as in caste) are distinguished by qualities borne of "material modes" which are non-existent in the spiritual world and are not a property of the soul. Therefore any demonstration should come from your side since your opinion is in contradiction with the definitions given by the Lord.

 

You said:

 

simply is not so difficult to relate one meaning of varna who is colour, with the other meaning who is social class. Logically is more difficult to accept that a word could have opposite and unrelated meanings...

 

 

 

Precisely why kulapavana prabhu called it your mental concoction, because you are relying on the power of your logic to understand the scriptures. Just a cursory glance on the sanskrit dictionary i have gives the following words which have unrelated multiple meanings; those who are expert in sanskrit can give you thousands of such words:

amsa -- portion/part, denominator of a fraction, a degree of latitude or longitude.

amsu -- a kind of Soma libation, thread, end of thread, a minute particle, array, sunbeam, of a prince ...

 

The dictionary also gives the following different meanings of varna:

---> a covering, cloak, mantle

---> outward appearence, exterior, form, figure, shape, colour, colour of the face

---> class of men, tribe, order, caste

---> a letter, sound, vowel, syllable

---> a musical sound or note (also applied to the voice of animals)

---> the order or arrangement of a song or poem

---> praise, commendation, renown

---> (in alg.) an unknown magnitude or quantity

---> (in arithm.) the figure, ` one '

---> (according to some) a co-efficient

---> a kind of measure L.

---> gold L.

---> a religious observance L.

---> one who wards off, expeller

 

 

--that's simply an attempt to ridiculize me and to make me appear as racist by having no arguments.. if you read srimad bhagavatam, when maharaja pariksit finds kali he identifies him as a sudra because he has dark complexion. Of course in kali yuga we are all sudras so every discrimination is useless

 

 

 

Please forgive me if that is the impression you gathered. You read my mind as trying to ridiculize you which was completely untrue, but really it was quite strange to see a devotee trying to link colour of skin to caste. In fact by your own admission you mean to say that those with dark colour were mostly shudras in previous yugas -- now what possible meaning can one gather out of this. This is what actually is given in Bhagavatam even though you say that the colour of skin was the factor:

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.4

 

Once, when Maharaja Parikshit was on his way to conquer the world, he saw the master of Kali-yuga, who was lower than a sudra, disguised as a king and hurting the legs of a cow and bull. The King at once caught hold of him to deal sufficient punishment.

 

 

 

SB 1.17.1-5

 

Suta Gosvami said: After reaching that place, Maharaja Parikshit observed that a lower-caste sudra, dressed like a king, was beating a cow and a bull with a club, as if they had no owner.

 

The bull was as white as a white lotus flower. He was terrified of the sudra who was beating him, and he was so afraid that he was standing on one leg, trembling and urinating.

 

Although the cow is beneficial because one can draw religious principles from her, she was now rendered poor and calfless. Her legs were being beaten by a sudra. There were tears in her eyes, and she was distressed and weak. She was hankering after some grass in the field.

 

Maharaja Parikshit, well equipped with arrows and bow and seated on a gold-embossed chariot, spoke to him [the sudra] with a deep voice sounding like thunder.

 

Oh, who are you? You appear to be strong and yet you dare kill, within my protection, those who are helpless! By your dress you pose yourself to be a godly man [king], but by your deeds you are opposing the principles of the twice-born kshatriyas.

 

 

 

So Maharaka Parikshit recognized the person as lower than a shudra because of his action of beating the cow and the bull. There is no mention of his colour of skin as you make out to be, and definitely no question of that being a distinguishing factor for the varna of Kali.

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and it is not a lesser important subject, if we cut out portions of variety from the spiritual world, we soon fall in impersonalism and mayavadism

 

 

No that is not what is being said. The gunas are absent but that does not mean there is no variety. The gunas in combination dictate the the pyscho/physical make up that is classified under 4 main headings.

 

Say one has a dominance of red (rajas) 50%, yellow (satva) 30%, and dark blue (tamas) 20% as his mental makeup. He will then be awarded a corresponding form in the gross physical world and exhibit that particular combination of acquired qualities through his body.

 

Along the way he may radically changed that combination in any way and be awarded a position in a different social order next birth. That does not happen in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

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actually, varna is much better explained in terms of a 3 dimensional object, where each mode of nature is a separate axis:

 

x - passion

y - goodness

z - ignorance

 

because the proportions (amounts) of each mode change (flactuate) with time we get a 3 dimensional object representing our material body, or our "place" in terms of the guna make-up.

 

such 3D modeling helps us understand the nature of the varnas, especially for the typical mixtures encountered in real life. it quickly becomes obvious, that there are no sudra-brahmanas for example.

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