got milk?

[Guest guest]

A compassionate god would never smile on cruelty in the guise of "devotion".

 

And would he ever frown upon a follower acting on his own initiative motivated by true compassion?

[theist 1]

I will just quote from Priyavrata's letter. No one has remarked on either of them although his points are right from ISKCON and relevant to devotees specificaly. Also I want to avoid any sense of bad feelings which disagreements often turn into.

 

 

Many people view veganism as simply a restrictive diet, a list of products and ingredients to avoid. Actually, it is part of an affirmative, compassionate philosophy of life. Veganism is the embodiment of ahimsa—non-violence towards and respect for all sentient beings.

 

The most powerful tool there is for making a better world is a positive example. If you do not think vegans are making a difference, just compare the world currently to that of only 20 years ago. Vegans used to be extremely rare, but today almost everyone knows at least one vegan person. Society is becoming more vegan-friendly all the time and slowly but surely ISKCON devotees are taking a careful look at the logic of veganism.

 

So where does veganism fit in with the Vedic culture that prides itself on cow protection and the glory of milk?

 

It is perfectly consistent, so long as the central purpose behind the choice is to increase one's devotion to Krishna.

 

"But," someone may ask, "isn't milk necessary for spiritual advancement?" Scripturally, this is not accurate. Devotion is not dependent on any material cause or circumstance. Nothing is needed to be Krishna conscious except love for Krishna.

 

Milk is said to contain subtle mental nutrients. However, there is a gulf of difference between modern milk and ideal milk. Modern milk comes from cows that live in fear, are pumped with antibiotics and hormones, and fed ground-up cows, road-kills, chicken manure, and a host of other ghastly products to increase milk production. This so-called "milk" is then homogenized, pasteurized, refrigerated and polluted with Vitamin D3 (which in some cases can be fish oil). The cows that produce this so-called "milk" live a continuous cycle of impregnation, birth and milking in order to produce milk for human consumption. They are milked for 10 months of the year, and for seven of those months, they are also pregnant. After giving birth, the cow's offspring is taken from her (males are killed as “veal” and females are raised as milkers). The cow is then put back into intensive milk production. After 3-4 years of dedicated service (exploitation) they are slaughtered.....

 

 

 

[krsna 3]

 

If this 'milk' is so polluted, why offer it to Krsna?

 

If you can't live the philosophy of cow protection, why should you preach the philosophy of cow protection minus ?

 

We can become soft-Vegans or conditional Vegans after all, but then arn't the grains,vegetables and fruits also full of unmentionable nasty chemicals,pesticides,etc... Tis Kali-yuga after-all. But the case for Vegan devotees is strong,especially if there are no devotee cow protection farms where the cow is treated like our mother.

 

 

[krsna 3]

k

 

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!

[theist 1]

Mooooooooooooooooooooooo Mata Moooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

I love all those Sharma paintings. What a gift.

[krsna 3]

 

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[vijay 0]

I had this conversation with a few devotees one who is a conditional vegan.

 

A vaishnava is naturally compassionate to the sufferings of others.

 

However the whole world is suffering, if we can become KC ourselves and engage everything in krishnas service that is our only real solution, everthing else temporary relief from karma.

 

Cow protection is a mode of goodness activity and not spirtual (unless done for krishnas pleasure) above that activity is that of serving humans, protection of women, children and bramhanas as this human form of live is even rarer. The highest welfare work is to spread krishna conciousness, everything else is plugging the holes.

 

There are millions of humans starving on this planet, we by investing our money in banks, working in corporations, buying shoes, jakets made in thrid world countries by humans working in atrocious conditions, companies causing pollution destroying peoples habitats in africa and asia through the building of damns etc these are all major problems and we are contributing to it.

 

However as devotees we still use all these facilities, and try and engage it in the highest welfare acvtivities, to the degree our surrender is pure that degree we are relieved in the karma.

 

Its like people who try and feed the poor and give medicines, or those that think long term and try and stop pollution which will cause misery to everyone. Each one thinks that there cause is higher.

 

We also offer polluted vegtables to krishna gentically modified, drenched in pesticides which kill animals and pollute the rivers.

 

We can not fight all of these as srila prabhupada says these are all ism's the root cause of all of this is mans conciousness and his greed to exploit material nature, there fore we should not overly try and takle the individual symptoms, but if we really care then try and takle the root which is krishna conciousness.

 

Prabhupada was not very much concerned for all these wrokers unions, animal rights campaigners, womens right campaigners, earthquakes in different countries, floods he knew what the root cause of ALL these problems are and therefore concerntrated on that, he was not short sighted fixed on a particular problem.

 

A devotee might say to me i should be concerned about womens rights(womens protection is highly regarded by arjuna in bg krsna smashes it (A society is judged also by how children women aged and brahmins are treated), or concerned with recycling and buy only biodegradable goods, reycycle my papers because he feels caring for mother bhumi is a high priority (so many village people are dying as a result of river pollution), he may feel that the future of all humans and animals rely on this fact.

 

Anyway not to go on, but all of these things are good to do as a vaishnava is compassionate but lets not lose sight of the real root of the problems, real compassion means krishna conciousness. Changing the hearts of greedy governemnts, co-orpartaions, and society in general will get rid of the ills of society, everything else is either karma reduction or sentimental short sighted compassion (if done with out the root cause in mind).

 

we use donated money form gambiling or other sinful activies all the time and purify it by using it in krishnas service, all things allowed to be used in krishnas service we use, most sources are directly or inderictly from illicit activties.

 

However if we are not offering to krishna sincerly then we will get the karma for it then better to do damage limitation and stop as many things which are considered morally bad.

 

My 2 bits worth

[theist 1]

I have heard it all before and I consider it just a smoke screen to hide your conscience from yourelf. Just being honest with my thoughts. Please don't be offended.

 

So why do devotees not wear leather except in some extreme cases?

 

But its an individual decision. But considering your arguments above please don't bother preaching about cow protection at all if you aren't going to protect the cows. That makes sense right?

 

Also consider that Krsna worked as an example to others although as God it certainly wasn't necesary. Why? because whatever action a great man performs is followed by the people in general.

[vijay 0]

In sb 8.6.12 srila prabhupada recomends we drink milk in kaliyuga, i dont know of one quote where he says that we should stop doing that, he continued and so did his dicsiples, he considered preaching the answer, hoping farm communities would develop.

At the same time he preached cow protection.

 

My emphasis was that a real change can only come about through preaching.

 

Also you will only be reducing your karma by not having milk, it doesnt make the slightest bit of difference to the slaughter industry by us not consuming milk, surplus is produced every year at least in europe, there are quotas given to each country which limits production and tax breaks are given to farmers as too much milk is produced and thus not enough profits.

 

Milk is used to create more profits from the prime activity of slaughter.

 

We dont wear leather as its not recommened by prabhupada or scripture.

 

I agree krishna acted as an example, not just in cow protection but many other things (he gave gita as the ultimate compassion for living entities), by us drinking or not drinking the milk wont protect the cow any more or less aslong as there are meat eaters.

Krishna conciousness being spread through society will result in cow protection.

 

 

Just like using money in krishnas service that the giver of the money is purified so is the cow when offering the milk.

 

I also understand that some devotees feeling compassion on mother cow will not drink the milk of that cow knowing what it has been through.

 

But because a devotee drinks milk and speaks of cow protection he is a hypocrite i do not agree, thus prabhupada was a hypocrite and his diciples whom he trained, and even if you think that (i dont think you do) it is hypocracy unless you give evidence that by stopping drinking of milk it will significantly cut cow slaughter then you have no right to say it is hypocracy.

 

If you can demonstarte that actually cows will be saved if we all gave up drinking milk, then i will give it up and stop offering it to the lord as i then agree with you we are adding to cow slaughter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I live in dairy world. There are beefer ranches here too, but Ive never seen a holstein grazing with the beefers.

 

But milk usage has dropped, and some dairies are selling out, and the former milk cows, who I see playing with their calves, are now being loaded into the same trucks as the beefers.

 

I propose to those concerned with mistraetment of dairy cows to educate the dairies. The consciousness of the ol-timers here (meat eaters, and even have their own beefers as well) is that they truely love the holsteins gurneseys and jerseys, and the well protected calves always provide a wonderful day for my daughter who loves to watch them play in the fields. They are truely saddened that they may have to sell these cows just to pay their rent.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist 1]

 

In sb 8.6.12 srila prabhupada recomends we drink milk in kaliyuga, i dont know of one quote where he says that we should stop doing that, he continued and so did his dicsiples, he considered preaching the answer, hoping farm communities would develop.

At the same time he preached cow protection.

 

 

 

Those cow protection communities haven't developed with a few exceptions. It is hard to be simple in kali-yuga.

 

Yes he preached cow protection. So why don't we do it? It is not that we memorize his statements and then turn around and repeat them to society without first following them. He is preaching TO US.

 

I should make my position clear as on a public forum that can be confusing. I am not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or any particular person. So I am not trying to speak for him. I do consider myself as some kind of friend to this movement and one who wants to see it thrive and become healthy and solidly established in the world and western world in particular. So it is up to each individual to personal judge how their lives line up to his teachings.I only ask that devotees consider this point for themselves and seriously and I appreciate your doing so.

 

 

 

My emphasis was that a real change can only come about through preaching.

 

 

 

Follow first then preach. Example is better than precept.

 

 

Also you will only be reducing your karma by not having milk, it doesnt make the slightest bit of difference to the slaughter industry by us not consuming milk...

 

 

 

Or not consuming meat. They are killing billions of cows and other animals every year. But I must take personal responsibility for my little corner. We can't hide in the crowd from Supersoul.

 

 

 

We dont wear leather as its not recommened by prabhupada or scripture.

 

 

 

There may be some verses that recommend brahmacaries to wear animal skins but that is not my place. Why did Prabhupada not recommend leather. because it is a product of violence? So is commercial milk.

 

 

I agree krishna acted as an example, not just in cow protection but many other things (he gave gita as the ultimate compassion for living entities), by us drinking or not drinking the milk wont protect the cow any more or less aslong as there are meat eaters.

 

 

 

Again you want to hide in the crowd but Supersoul follows you. By not eating meating meat wearing leather and drinking milk you are protecting some cows that would have been killed. 1 out of a billion is still 1. Reread Priyavrata's articles.

 

 

Krishna conciousness being spread through society will result in cow protection.

 

 

 

But it spreads by people following it not just repeating the instructions. Cow protection spreads by protecting cows.

 

 

 

Just like using money in krishnas service that the giver of the money is purified so is the cow when offering the milk.

 

 

 

Yes and I have really seen this misused. Prostitution rings for Krsna. Organized stealing for Krsna. What about hamburger stands for Krsna?

 

 

I also understand that some devotees feeling compassion on mother cow will not drink the milk of that cow knowing what it has been through.

 

 

 

Why not all the devotees?

 

 

But because a devotee drinks milk and speaks of cow protection he is a hypocrite i do not agree, thus prabhupada was a hypocrite and his diciples whom he trained, and even if you think that (i dont think you do)...

 

 

 

Prabhupada also instructed cow protection communities that the milk was to come from. he was initiated a whole new lifestyle with his disciples expected to carry out the instructions. personally I don't believe he even knew the full story of what the cows were going through just like the children in the gurukulas. But that is not for me to say one way or the other. I have read tyhat he wanted his disciples to be independent and thoughful.

 

 

 

it is hypocracy unless you give evidence that by stopping drinking of milk it will significantly cut cow slaughter then you have no right to say it is hypocracy.

 

 

 

Again you want to hide, now behind the word "significantly".

It is significant to me and my serch for god and truth that I not participate in cow and animal slaughter. It is significant to those cows and animals that are not tortured and slaughtered for me.

 

 

If you can demonstarte that actually cows will be saved if we all gave up drinking milk, then i will give it up and stop offering it to the lord as i then agree with you we are adding to cow slaughter.

 

 

 

That is nice but you are still hiding. "Cows" Maybe just one cow that will be saved by you.

 

"if we all gave up drinking milk". I am not speaking to all I am speaking to you. No hiding in the herd. It is easily demonstrated how you are contributing to cow slaughter with every glass of milk you buy.

 

It's an individual responsibility and decision. Don't wait for the institution as a whole to decide. The GBC won't die in your place. We must become pilots of our own planes.

 

Thank you for considering this subject.

 

www.milksucks.com

 

 

 

[harekrishnadas 0]

Hare Krishna Theist Prabhu,

 

I think your stand on the milk issue is really appreciable, I agree with you that more people should become serious about cow protection rather than just paying lip service

.

I personally have not been able to adopt a diet without milk and I don’t think it would be possible for me in the near future. I would be glad to pay extra money if it would have been possible to get milk near where I live from a goshala. When I looked at soymilk – most of them contained ingredients I avoid. I am curious about your life style and diet though. How do you get the required minerals, vitamins and other essentials ?

 

1) Do you drink any other milk – like soy or nut .. etc – -- which brand and what are its ingredients ?

2) Do you avoid all leather goods ?

3) Do you avoid gelcaps or capsules ? – what if you were sick and the pills the doctor prescribed come only in those forms ?

4) Do you avoid using any films for photos etc ?

5) Do you avoid white sugar ?

6) Do you avoid glycerin, glycerides in soaps, shampoos, shaving creams, eatables?

7) Do you look for any animal based ingredients in your toothpaste, body lotions ?

8) Do you avoid using a mrdanga or listening to a mrdanga ?

9) Do avoid using or hearing a shankha/ conch shell ?

10) Do you write to companies selling/using animals products – the reason you have stopped using a certain product?

 

Please do not take this as criticism of your stand, I would really like to know what alternatives you use so that I or others who are interested in avoiding animal products can atleast consider the alternatives. I am sure given a choice most devotees would be more than willing to take the extra time/money to consider the alternatives if not today maybe some time in the future.

 

One last question – would you drink cow’s milk – if it came from a cow belonging to a cow protection program (goshala) ?

 

 

Haribol !!!

 

 

[theist 1]

Hare Krishna Theist Prabhu,

 

 

When I looked at soymilk – most of them contained ingredients I avoid. I am curious about your life style and diet though. How do you get the required minerals, vitamins and other essentials ?

 

 

I don't know why you think you neeed this substance they call milk with all its hormones and pus etc. Anyway. Yes the alternatives you named are all sufficant. I grind nuts and use them in fruit based smoothies. I drink raw veggie juice. I eat huge salads. I steam veggies. That sort of thing. Animal products are not required by the human form.

 

>>1) Do you drink any other milk – like soy or nut .. etc – -- which brand and what are its ingredients ? <<

yes- I make my own and if commercial soy milk I read the labels-sorry but I am not going to spend time listing all the ingredients.

 

>>2) Do you avoid all leather goods ?<<

 

yes as well as wool and silk.

 

 

>>3) Do you avoid gelcaps or capsules ?<<

 

yes I buy veggie caps.

 

>>– what if you were sick and the pills the doctor prescribed come only in those forms ?<<

 

I would(and do) empty the contents into water and throw out the capsule. But those ingredients may contain some derivitive of an animal product or have been tested on an animal in which case I take the medicine anyway. I call it a forced compromise.

 

>>4) Do you avoid using any films for photos etc ?<<

 

I use no film at all.

 

>>5) Do you avoid white sugar ?<<

 

Yes. But if I did eat it I would choose some kind that wasn't filter through charred cow bones. I also avoid honey but that's just a personal thing.

 

 

>>6) Do you avoid glycerin, glycerides in soaps, shampoos, shaving creams, eatables?<<

 

Yes unless it says vegetable glycerine.

 

>>7) Do you look for any animal based ingredients in your toothpaste, body lotions ?<<

 

Yes

 

>>8) Do you avoid using a mrdanga or listening to a mrdanga ?

9) Do avoid using or hearing a shankha/ conch shell ?<<

 

Now you are getting too stupid to get a reply.

 

>>10) Do you write to companies selling/using animals products – the reason you have stopped using a certain product?<<

 

Yes. I use the PeTA alert page and the ASPCA alerts so that complaints are concentrated. In California we got the Gov. to recently sign a bill outlawing foie gras in the state and we concentrate on companies that sell fur and leather etc. Currently we are protesting Agriprocessors, a so-called kosher slaughterhouse (read Kulapavana's article in world review)I do this several times a week. For me its karma yoga. I also take the oppurtunity when politely voicing my complaints to mention the need to respect the lifeforce within all of God's creation.

 

>>Please do not take this as criticism of your stand, I would really like to know what alternatives you use so that I or others who are interested in avoiding animal products can atleast consider the alternatives.<<

 

LOL Horsesh_t! You are looking for little areas of contradiction so you can call me a hypocrite. The phony humility game is so irratating. Just talk straight please.

 

>>I am sure given a choice most devotees would be more than willing to take the extra time/money to consider the alternatives if not today maybe some time in the future.<<

 

Start with commercial milk.

 

>>One last question – would you drink cow’s milk – if it came from a cow belonging to a cow protection program (goshala) ?<<

 

Not personally as cows milk makes me sick. My body doesn't handle it. But I would have no objection to the practice. The point is how the cows are treated. Reread Priyavrata's articles and his position on being a "conditional vegan". I should mention that I have often accepted milk sweets from the Deities plate just in case it was real maha prasadam. I don't raise a ruckus at any temple over this issue. It's all an individual choice.

 

 

Jaya Govinda!!

 

[vijay 0]

"Those cow protection communities haven't developed with a few exceptions. It is hard to be simple in kali-yuga.

 

"Yes he preached cow protection. So why don't we do it? It is not that we memorize his statements and then turn around and repeat them to society without first following them. He is preaching TO US."

 

Yes prabhu, he is, but to develop a farm community we have to have dedicated members and that requires preaching, especially in the west. A little patience and help would be nice (-:, yes its been 35 years, it may take 350 years.

 

 

"Yes and I have really seen this misused. Prostitution rings for Krsna. Organized stealing for Krsna. What about hamburger stands for Krsna?"

 

this is slightly different to that, srila prabhupada also consumed milk and it is encouraged in sastra, it is offerable the question is should we or should we not. And its not so clear cut, if prabhupada allowed the use of slaughtered cow skin for the lords pleasure then y not milk.

 

""if we all gave up drinking milk". I am not speaking to all I am speaking to you."

 

If your speaking to me personally, i do drink milk, i also give 10 percent of my wealth to krishna, including the cow shelter in london as well as encourage my family to do so.

 

The temple here are currently trying to get planning permission for europes biggest cow proection shelter, with laxmi already raised but the concil coming in the way again.

 

I appreciate your position on the issue, and maybe you are right, maybe i should stop, and maybe if my heart was softer i wouldnt see things not through just logic, but we should also be wary that some may actually relise the potency of offering milk to the lord and thus them and the cow becoming purified, i certainly dont and am not sure how benificial my offerings of milk are to the cow.

 

Something to ponder, and ask devotees on.

 

"Don't wait for the institution as a whole to decide. The GBC won't die in your place. We must become pilots of our own planes."

 

I agree under sadhu guru and sastra, and yes paramatma (-:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[harekrishnadas 0]

Hare Krishna Theist Prabhu ,

 

 

Thanks for providing the answers to most of my questions. I am very impressed by your dedication to this cause.

 

>>LOL Horsesh_t! You are looking for little areas of contradiction so you can call me a hypocrite. The phony humility game is so irratating. Just talk straight please.

 

No phony humility game here !! Just respecting the senior Vaishanvas and hoping to learn from them. I want to learn to live this lifestyle so wanted to make sure how much you practise of what you preach and I am glad you do take this as seriously as you talk about it.

 

Anways,

>>>>8) Do you avoid using a mrdanga or listening to a mrdanga ?

9) Do avoid using or hearing a shankha/ conch shell ?<<

>>Now you are getting too stupid to get a reply.

 

Mrdanga/Conchshell/Yak tail fans are/use animal products, thats why I thought you would avoid any usage of these products.

 

 

As for Soy milk - I have given it a try - the taste wasn't to my liking. Later I found that most of the Soy milk have number of additives to make their taste acceptable. And apart from that most of them contain Vitamin D - which cud be animal based. That was the reason I was asking you about your soy milk brand/ingredients. I have also read not so good reports of daily consumption of Soy milk. The only option remains is to make milk at home using Soy /other nuts. but that may not be possible for me at this juncture. but will surely give it a try.

 

Again thanks for your kind response.

 

Haribol !!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theist 1]

I am not a senior devotee. But it is nice that you respect everyone. I can't even maintain the bare minimum standard for sadhana bhakti. I've just been hanging around a long time. Senior? yes as in very time worn and getting close to death. Devotee? Not a chance but in this lifetime I have received a start and for that I am thankful.

 

The vitamin d is from fish oil and I have never heard of it in soy milk although it is in commercial cow's milk.

 

I am not advocating becoming obsessive about this. Animal products are everywhere. Even a fruitarian steps on bugs while gathering his fruit. The Jains try to sweep bugs out of their path but does anyone think they are 100% successful? The material atmosphere is constructed with death in mind.

 

It's best to minimize killing wherever we can and certainly preaching cow protection while partaking in cow slaughter is not harmonious.

 

Oh yeah, there is nothing like the sound of a mrdunga and kartals coming from some distant street when you are out in the city.

[Guest guest]

"LOL Horsesh_t! You are looking for little areas of contradiction so you can call me a hypocrite. The phony humility game is so irratating. Just talk straight please."

 

You are calling Srila Prabhupada a hypocrite, yet you don't even realize it. No "lol", this is serious beeswax here, pal.

 

"I should make my position clear as on a public forum that can be confusing. I am not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or any particular person. So I am not trying to speak for him."

 

At last. We have a starting point from which we can build upon. You are not practising sadhana bhakti, since you admittedly do not have a spiritual master.

 

So, you have taken the position of PETA, and are ignoring the position of Vaishnavas, yet claiming you have "heard it all before", which is not true. It's going in one ear and out the other. No hearing involved.

 

Since you are so sympathetic with PETA, which is not part of the religious right, you may wish to ask them, since you seem to think they have captured the truth, how they feel about abortion. Take a poll, ask PETA members if they are pro-life or pro-choice on the abortion issue. I would venture to say that most would be pro-choice. After all, many are atheists, and don't even believe in God or karma.

 

Sometimes you claim you are here to learn, and then people praise you for your humility. But most of the time, I see you instructing others, as if you have a unique hold on the absolute truth.

 

You're not here to learn, you're here to instruct, yet you haven't even bothered to accept a spiritual master after 30+ years.

 

Friend of the Movement? Okay, fine. That's your position. But Guru? No, I don't accept you as the final authority.

 

You claim you've heard all the arguments before, and that no one is listening to your arguments. That's not true. I think most of the practicing Vaishnavas here have investigated the milk issue and have consulted with senior Vaishnavas, and have given the issue considerable thought. You ask us to be thoughtful, as if you have realized the truth. But I ask you to be thoughtful, and try to see these issues from the Vaishnava perspective.

 

Guest 1234

[theist 1]

gee...does that mean you won't consider giving up commercial milk?

[Guest guest]

Jeepers there, swamiji, uhhhh..... no, what it means is, I will consider assisting the poor cows to aquire some ajnata sukriti, since you are obviously doing nothing for them except boycotting them. Prasad means mercy. Prasad benefits the cows.

 

But then, only bhaktas can understand bhakti. If you're not practicing it, I don't expect you to understand. Also, I don't expect the most vocal voice on this forum to be continuously criticizing and "correcting" devotees when he is admittedly not even practicing bhakti himself, under the guidance of a bona fide Spiritual Master.

[stonehearted 0]

"Guest 1234":

You're not here to learn, you're here to instruct, yet you haven't even bothered to accept a spiritual master after 30+ years.

 

Friend of the Movement? Okay, fine. That's your position. But Guru? No, I don't accept you as the final authority.

 

 

theist shares his understanding and tries to make his position as clear as he can. He has been consistent in this for as long as I have corresponded with him. With regard to your putting him down for not having accepted a spiritual master, etc., this isn't new either. When I've made similar comments in the past, without the intention of denigrating his position, devotees jumped all over me, and I felt compelled to apologize for any inadvertent affront. He has always been honest about his spiritual position: he aspires to devotional service, but, apparently due to previous samskaras, he has been unable to make the commitment he sees as necessary for initiation. It's easy to see this as weakness, but I think we may also be able to credit him for not committing to someone in whom he doesn't have the confidence we should have in a spiritual master, and in his honesty about being unable to meet the requirements. I think that if he finds someone he trusts as a guide, without overblown expectations, he may find that person able to help him along. But he has a clear view of where he's at. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, in a verse that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura quoted frequently, Krishna tells Arjuna,

 

sve sve 'dhikare ya nistha

sa gunah parikirtitah

viparyayas tu dosah syad

ubhayor esa niscayah

 

A person's steadfast attachment to practice according to his level of advancement is his real qualification; deviation from practice suitable to his level of advancement becomes a disqualification. These are the symptoms of good behaviour and faulty behaviour, piety and impiety.

 

1234:

I think most of the practicing Vaishnavas here have investigated the milk issue and have consulted with senior Vaishnavas, and have given the issue considerable thought.

 

 

I've been a practicing Vaishnava for 35 years who has investigated the milk issue. I have developed a deep sympathy for vegans whose decision is based on compassion for cows. Most of the devotees I know who are in this position will not behave offensively toward prasadam, and will happily hnor prasadam made with milk from protected cows. My older daughter is among these. I have thought about taking up a vegan diet, but I like milk and milk products too well (I grew up in a family of dairy farmers), and I have admitted as much to theist. I also worship a Shalagram-shila and two Govardhan-shilas, all of whom really like milk. So I use the best-quality, purest milk products I can get, and, when I can, buy milk from dairymen (or women) who take care of cows properly.

 

I have often seen devotees rip into conscientous vegans--and in public--and have been very disturbed by the self-righteous attitude behind such behavior. I fear it often masks a facile dismissal of the evils of the factory-fram dairy industry, including most organic dairies, who give up bull calves for veal and sell old cows, whose "output" has become less than economically viable, for slaughter. Before we get all het up about jumping down vegans' throats, we need to ensure that we have done everything we can to honor Srila Prabhupada's desire in this matter. When he talked about varnashram-dharma, it was most often connected with self-sufficient farms whose main activities were cow protection, growing food, and worshipping Krishna. When he visited the farm we had here on the Big Island in May of 1975, Srila Prabhpada spoke at length about the importance of transcendental village life. He said that wherever there are cows, crops, and Krishna, that is Vrindavan. We continue to drag our feet in the matter of cow protection--or worse, slide back. We will accomplish more with example than with our "preaching."

 

I also want to suggest, as I have on many occasions here, that if you're going to call the folks here names, have enough faith in your convictions to actually stand up for them, with your name. Or at least be bold enough to take a fake name, as many of us have.

 

[Guest guest]

Stonehearted, it appears that my 2 replies to you were deleted. Not sure why, as I was only replying to what I felt were unfair accusations.

 

I don't know if you've been following the thread from the beginning, but I have repeatedly stated that I respect vegans and I respect Theist's position. It appears that he doesn't respect the other position, and he has the used the word hypocrisy on numerous occasion. I kept cool, and had decided I had said all I wanted to say, but when I saw that HareKrsna dasa was being attacked, my natural reaction was to defend the Vaishnava.

 

I certainly respect Theist's position regarding the Guru issue. My point wasn't to give him a hard time about being uninitiated, but that those who are, and are practicing sadhana bhakti under the guidance of a bona fide Guru, are instructed to offer milk and milk products to Guru and Krsna. If he chooses not to respect that and continue calling devotees hypocrites, there's not much I can do. I don't feel that I "ripped" into him, as you say. Nor do I feel that I've been "self-righteous" about the issue. I respect his position, I just wish he would respect the position of those who are practicing sadhana bhakti.

 

I'm not here to have a heated argument. I helped get the thread going by taking the unpopular position of trying to show that offering cow's milk to Krsna is not an act of cruelty towards the cows. I'm ready to step aside and let others (Vijay, HareKrsna dasa, yourself?) debate the issue.

 

I am sorry for any offenses I've committed.

[stonehearted 0]

I don't know which guest is whom. I responded only to the last couple of posts. When people engage in conversation from behind a screen, with their voice altered to protect their identity, it's hard to relate to them. On these forums, when folks don't sign in but participate as "guests," it's hard to keep track of them.

 

I don't have any desire to "debate" this issue. There are no rules or structure here, as there is in debate. And there's nothing to be gained. I'm a mild drinker who is sorry it's so hard to get milk from protected cows, and I have no desire to convert anyone to any position. We should protect cows and others, as the shastra and our gurus instruct. Our entire society suffers because we can't do this. That's all I have to say, and it is, in esence, all I have ever said on this issue.

 

Guess I'll just mind my own damned business.

[theist 1]

Tis' the season for the peacemaker.

 

Guest, I think if you reread my exchange with Hare Krsna dasa you may see that I didn't rip into him. His questions were an obvious set up like with the film etc. It's a common question that I have heard a dozen times by people who challenge animal rights advocates. Which is OK but I wanted to call him on the humility thing.

 

Sorry but it does seem like hypocrisy to me to advocate protecting the cows while supporting the slaughter industry. Can you think of a better word that I should have used?

 

Anyway you felt the need to come to your brothers defense, although none was needed, still it is laudable.

 

This is an issue that each individual must come to for themselves and follow their conscience. I can understand someone wants to help another soul gain some ajnata sukriti. But if someone substituted almond milk for cows milk then wouldn't the almond tree get some ajnata sukriti as well?

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

"I have no desire to convert anyone to any position."

 

Me either. I was only defending those who do use milk in their offerings, as they were under attack.

 

"Guess I'll just mind my own damned business."

 

Same here.

[stonehearted 0]

I don't think theist was attacking them as much as strongly arguing a position. There's a difference (I've been teaching this stuff in college for over 15 years). I'd guess the "vistims" here will survive more easily than the cows at the Meadow Gold dairy, which so many of us happily support.

 

Very often I see devotees trumpet that the cows (and the farmers , too I guess?) are benefited by our offering their milk. However, I have never, ever seen any evidence offered in support of this assertion. Can anyone here do so? I'm talking about real evidence; any inference should be supported by shastric evidence.