got milk?

[gopalapriyadas 0]

What is your position on milk?

The fact is that in this age, commercial dairy cows are kept pregnant to produce milk and their babies are auctioned to veal slaughter houses. So in essence, when you drink milk you are killing baby cows. I don't think this is good and certainly not karma-free.

Any thoughts?

 

Hare Krsna.

-Gopalapriya das

[theist 1]

The dairy industry is just another manifestation of the slaughter industry. We like to envision them as being distinct but they are not.

 

At birth the calves are ripped away from the mother, males used for veal while the females become future dairy producers (machines).

 

When they get too old to produce enough milk they are slaughtered for meat.

 

This isn't Gopala and the cowherd boys playing in the forest with cows and calves, this is slavery, torture and butchery on a massive scale.

 

Devotees like to preach cow protection but until commercial milk products are given up there won't be enough substance to the words to effect change.

 

Go vegan. http://www.milksucks.com/

[Guest guest]

There are dairies that are honorable. I live near many of them. The babies are bred to be milk cows, not veal cutletts. Even large dairies (many in OREGON) have a policy, but ya gotta pay. Instead of $1.99 a 1/2 gallon, I pay $3.75.

 

However, everything in kali yuga is polluted horribly. Even the broccoli has had the seeds tampered with, even aborted fetuses are used by the food industry. If one wants to be free from karma mechanically, one must not eat, or even breathe, for that matter, because universes, even those with human beings living in them, are inhaled with every breath. Naradas Muni confirms that to live means to kill others.

 

If one offers Krsna a glass of milk from a cow who had her baby ripped away and slaughtered, the baby cow is blessed far greater than a cow who is lewft alone in the above described dairies who never had a cup of milk offered to krsna.

 

Be careful, of course, but be poractical as well. Otherwise, die immediaTELY AND MECHANICALLY STOP ALL KARMA.

 

hARE kRSNA, YS, MAHAKSADASA

[theist 1]

 

If one offers Krsna a glass of milk from a cow who had her baby ripped away and slaughtered, the baby cow is blessed far greater than a cow who is lewft alone in the above described dairies who never had a cup of milk offered to krsna.

 

 

Do you have a reference for that mahak?

 

The dairies you described above; what happens to the cows after they stop producing milk? Are they allowed to die a natural death in pasteur or are they sold to be slaughtered?

 

And what do they do with the male calves?

 

[theist 1]

 

The fact is that in this age, commercial dairy cows are kept pregnant to produce milk and their babies are auctioned to veal slaughter houses. So in essence, when you drink milk you are killing baby cows. I don't think this is good and certainly not karma-free.

Any thoughts?

 

 

TRANSLATION

Glorification of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is performed in the paramparä system; that is, it is conveyed from spiritual master to disciple. Such glorification is relished by those no longer interested in the false, temporary glorification of this cosmic manifestation. Descriptions of the Lord are the right medicine for the conditioned soul undergoing repeated birth and death. Therefore, who will cease hearing such glorification of the Lord except a butcher or one who is killing his own self?

 

[Guest guest]

I keep going back to this true story. A friend was given an assignment by Srila Prabhupada to build fibreglas mrdangas. He was overwhelmed by a dilemma, how to have leather heads affixed. He took his concern directly to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupadas response was surprising, but not out of his sence of practicality. He told the devotee "Is there suddenly a shortage of slaughterhouses in your country?"

 

The cows have been butchered, and the skins were headed for the dump. It was gross service, three hides baking in the sun at the ISKCON farm in Ookala, HI. And it didnt work either, the hides rotted because of the humid atmosphere and our lack of leather making equipment.

 

No, as a matter of practicality, addressing the age we live in, we do not fail to have many mrdangas due to shoprtage of leather. We do not unnecessarily kill, nor do we support the slaughterhouse industry, but we do what we do without question what Guru decides. The sound of mrdangas outweighs the dirty job of collecting hides en route to the dump. I had worse duty, getting manure for the farm, from chicken farms, even had the horror of shovelling from a veal farm. Our guidance is everywhere, from guru shastra and sadhu. King Yudhisthira lied in order to allow for the death of Dronacarya. Lord Krsna cheated on the battlefield by killing King Bhisma. Lying and cheating are anti-vaisnava activities, however, when performed for the satisfaction for guru and gauranga, there is NO SINFUL REACTION.

 

Milk is the same way. How can one prepare food to offer to krsna, say in NYC, where the only available milk is the fish-oil laden stuff from the dairies described. Krsna worship requires milk, so we do it without fear of karmic reprocussions. The dairy issue, to my knowledge, was given to Srila Prabhupada, and his desire was that we become self-sufficient, eventually. This was a prime desire, and he spared no expense in acquiring farms globally for this purpose. But practical application of this science never meant that Krsna dont get milk, yoghurt, curds, ghee.

 

I would be very wary to use such milk products without the process of sadhana bhakti which turns ordinary food into prasadam. But in such a case, there is karmic reprocussion in slicing the throat of a head of lettuce as well.

 

Hope this article does not convey non-appreciation of such horrible stuff in the age of kali, this is not the intent. Nor would I make a rock-n-roll drum to play gangsta rap usingcowhide.

 

Krsna rectifies all apparent contradictions.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion is that there's no need for humans to consume any animal products, and to do so is to promote the suffering of animals. It's nothing to do with "this age" or Krsna. It's about compassion.

 

I am an atheistic, materialistic, mechanistic, vegan.

 

- Nihilist

[theist 1]

I have heard it all so many times before. I just don't buy it.

 

I disagree that you can't worship Krsna without milk. "Fruit flower water and leaf..." Also abstaining out of compassion strikes me as a form of worship. Now if you had said you can't worship Krsna by offering milk from the mother cow while her baby calve is being butchered....

 

And it is getting to be about 40 years now and where is that milk from the protected cows?

 

Also you never answered my questions about those idylic farms you were talking about. What do they do with the male calves? Do they sell the cows for slaughter when they retire them?

 

No body can force anyone to stop this practice of taking dairy from slaughtered cows but then please don't turn around and lecture the world on cow protection, you give up that right when you drink milk from a murdered cow.

[Guest guest]

We've heard your point so many times. Mahak makes excellent points. We respect your opinion. Go vegan if you like.

 

You haven't responded to Mahak's point about devotees in New York City, where there are no farms. Srila Prabhupada drank the supermarket milk there and made, offered, and was offered, numerous preparations made from milk. Lord Krsna tells us what He likes. If He wanted meat, he would say so. But he does say He likes milk, and milk products. There are probably many reasons for this, not the least of which is to give benefit to the poor cows in Kali Yuga who are bound to be butchered, and give them some benefit. Milk is a by-product of the cow, as is leather, and Mahak gave an excellent example of how Srila Prabhupada okayed using leather if it is used in Krsna's service, as is the case with mrdangas.

 

This is a perfect example of why it is good to have a spiritual master who is physically present. Then you could clear the issue by asking him personally. But since you can't, we can only go by his example, and his example was, he offered store-bought milk to Krsna, and at the same time, encouraged cow protection. When ordinary devotees do this, you call us hypocrites. Yet Srila Prabhupada did this. I see no hypocrisy in it. Absolutely, we would all love to see the cows protected, as they are our mothers. And of course the bulls as well. In the meantime, we can still benefit the cows, and ourselves, by offering Krsna what He likes. Yes, leaf, flower, fruit, water...this is nice. This example is given largely in part to show that even a poor man can offer anything to Krsna, being that everyone can obtain water and a leaf, and possibly even a little fruit. But if you have the means, why not offer Him something more substantial? Srila Prabhupada did.

[theist 1]

But the protection isn't there after 35 or 40 years. You say the calves and cows from the factory farms are all being benefited. So why even bother with protecting them at all? Just offer the milk before a picture or Deity of krsna and all is alright. I asked for a referrence where that is stated. I have many times before and none has ever come. Now I ask you for one.

 

It is easy to describe how they are tortured and slaughtered.

 

And yes I have heard the Mrdunga story many times. But Srila Prabhupada never told him to go slaughter a cow for the leather. Not quite ananlogous to the continued buying of milk which is simultaneously an order to continue the process further.

 

But like I said do what you like. But can you seriously say it is free from hypocrisy to participate on a daily basis in the slaughter of cows and also preach cow protection?

[theist 1]

I am not suggesting that you not offer Krsna milk But why the kind that comes from slaughter? Why not in the mind? We are living in extreme circumstances.

 

Maybe some are not thinking of cow protection in a broad way but more of in their own lifestyle like small or community farms where the cows are treated like pets and given names like Balarama for the bull Sita for the cow or something. What a wonderful life. But the fact is Billions of cows and other animals are being slaughtered in these vast factory farming operations.

 

I don't see how one can support them and simultaneously hold oneself up as an example for the world to follow in terms of cow protection.

 

Sorry we just have different opinions.

[theist 1]

In this connection there is a story about a brähmaëa who was offering sweet rice to the Lord within his mind. The brähmaëa had no money nor any means of worshiping the Deity, but within his mind he arranged everything nicely. He had gold pots to bring water from the sacred rivers to wash the Deity, and he offered the Deity very sumptuous food, including sweet rice. Once, before he offered the sweet rice, he thought that it was too hot, and he thought, “Oh, let me test it. My, it is very hot.” When he put his finger in the sweet rice to test it, his finger was burned and his meditation broken. Although he was offering food to the Lord within his mind, the Lord accepted it nonetheless. Consequently, the Lord in Vaikuëöha immediately sent a chariot to bring the brähmaëa back home, back to Godhead.

[Guest guest]

"But the protection isn't there after 35 or 40 years"

 

And it may not be for another 35 or 40 years or more. This is Kali Yuga. As Mahak tried to point out, cow-killing is the nature of the age.

 

"So why even bother with protecting them at all?"

 

Because they are sentient beings and devotees are compassionate and Krsna loves the cows and we wish to minimize their suffering. Pretty simple. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Why not both?

 

"Just offer the milk before a picture or Deity of krsna and all is alright. I asked for a referrence where that is stated."

 

Do you really need a reference to know that Krsna likes milk? And that the cows will be benefitted by having their milk offered to Krsna?

 

"And yes I have heard the Mrdunga story many times. But Srila Prabhupada never told him to go slaughter a cow for the leather. Not quite ananlogous to the continued buying of milk which is simultaneously an order to continue the process further."

 

Yes, it is analogous. Milk is a by-product of the cow, and is given whether the cow is slaughtered or not. We don't have to slaughter cows for leather. It's a by-product of the cow, just as milk is. Perhaps in previous ages, mrdanga makers would just wait until the cow died naturally. Still, Srila Prabhupada said...well, you already know what he said. Take his advice or not, call it sentimentalism as you wish.

 

"But can you seriously say it is free from hypocrisy to participate on a daily basis in the slaughter of cows and also preach cow protection?"

 

As I said, Srila Prabhupada used milk and preached cow protection. Can you give me a quote where he says that "after 35 to 40 years, if cow protection is not in place, then become vegans" ?

 

I agree with Mahak that unless one is situated in sadhana bhakti, one should probably not use milk. But I think you underestimate the incredible value of offering Krsna certain foodstuffs which He enjoys.

[Guest guest]

I didn't see your 2 new posts regarding mental offerings until after I posted. Yes, mental offerings are definitely beneficial.

 

And yes, I guess for now, we do disagree, and I know that I respect your opinion, I just hope that you will respect others' opinions on the issue.

[theist 1]

http://www.ffl.org/html/vegan_issue.html

International Vegetarian Union Member

Should ISKCON and Food for Life be Vegan?

 

A 1994 Roper Poll estimated the number of vegans in the U.S. to be 500,000 and growing. More and more people are choosing to follow a vegan life-style (ie. striving to consume no products which contribute to animal suffering.)

 

Many people view veganism as simply a restrictive diet, a list of products and ingredients to avoid. Actually, it is part of an affirmative, compassionate philosophy of life. Veganism is the embodiment of ahimsa—non-violence towards and respect for all sentient beings.

 

The most powerful tool there is for making a better world is a positive example. If you do not think vegans are making a difference, just compare the world currently to that of only 20 years ago. Vegans used to be extremely rare, but today almost everyone knows at least one vegan person. Society is becoming more vegan-friendly all the time and slowly but surely ISKCON devotees are taking a careful look at the logic of veganism.

 

So where does veganism fit in with the Vedic culture that prides itself on cow protection and the glory of milk?

 

It is perfectly consistent, so long as the central purpose behind the choice is to increase one's devotion to Krishna.

 

"But," someone may ask, "isn't milk necessary for spiritual advancement?" Scripturally, this is not accurate. Devotion is not dependent on any material cause or circumstance. Nothing is needed to be Krishna conscious except love for Krishna.

 

Milk is said to contain subtle mental nutrients. However, there is a gulf of difference between modern milk and ideal milk. Modern milk comes from cows that live in fear, are pumped with antibiotics and hormones, and fed ground-up cows, road-kills, chicken manure, and a host of other ghastly products to increase milk production. This so-called "milk" is then homogenized, pasteurized, refrigerated and polluted with Vitamin D3 (which in some cases can be fish oil). The cows that produce this so-called "milk" live a continuous cycle of impregnation, birth and milking in order to produce milk for human consumption. They are milked for 10 months of the year, and for seven of those months, they are also pregnant. After giving birth, the cow's offspring is taken from her (males are killed as “veal” and females are raised as milkers). The cow is then put back into intensive milk production. After 3-4 years of dedicated service (exploitation) they are slaughtered.

 

The ideal milk, glorified in the ancient scriptures, flows from cows who are loved like "mothers," protected and allowed to graze on grass in open fields.

 

In any case, Krishna clearly states in Bhagavad-gita that He gives the intelligence to understand Him to those who serve Him with devotion bhajatam priti-purvakam dadami buddhi yogam tvam. Thus, the point remains that we don't need anything to become Krishna conscious (God Conscious), except Krishna.

 

My personal opinion is that ISKCON devotees should be "conditional vegan," in that they will abstain from all commercial dairy products, but gladly accept those dairy products produced from milk flowing from protected cows. This is certainly much more consistent with the founder’s (Srila Prabhupada) vision of ISKCON developing self-sufficient, independent farming communities. As opposed to "dependent" temples that exist by the "mercy" of industrialization.

 

Considering this, maybe becoming a "conditional vegan" is a step in the right direction?

 

Comments welcome

 

- Paul Turner of Food for Life Global

[theist 1]

International Vegetarian Union Member

 

 

Why does ISKCON use milk?

 

For the most part (80%), Food for Life is vegan, but yes, it is unfortunate that some programs continue to use commercial milk products. Food for Life Global is doing its best to encourage them not to, however, you really have to understand the "tradition" that the Hare Krishna movement represents to better understand why they appear so determined to use milk, despite all the arguments and medical evidence that supports a vegan diet.

 

Ancient Tradition

 

It is a long story, but I will be as brief as I can. First of all, the Hindu tradition of India is centered on worship of Krishna the "cowherd boy" and the cow is respected as "Mother." This very ancient culture has existed on cow's milk for tens of thousands of years. The cow is therefore worshiped. Milk, whether we like it or not, is an integral part of that very ancient culture and it always will be.

 

History has proven that cultures can survive for thousands of years and enable their people to live healthy, long lives when there is a symbiotic relationship between man and animal. If we ignore this fact, we ourselves will appear ignorant. The fact that hundreds of millions of Hindus have used dairy for so many thousands of years does give some credibility that dairy products can be safe to take.

 

Milk is not "one"

 

Secondly, one important consideration that is always overlooked, is that "milk," whether it comes from a cow or human is not one and the same. All milk is uniquely different. For example, the milk that a brown cow produces is different from that of a spotted cow and within each herd, every individual cow has the ability to produce a unique blend of milk for its calf.

 

Similarly, even among breast-feeding women, the milk that each women produces is not exactly the same. By nature's arrangement the milk that a mother produces for its child is perfectly suited to that child. Amazingly, even while breast-feeding, a mother's milk can change according to the needs of the child! Obviously, a more subtle influence is present here — the influence of love. In the same way, if a cow is loved and protected, the milk it offers to humans will most certainly be uniquely beneficial. On the other hand, the "commercial milk" that comes from mistreated and diseased cows is certainly very harmful. And it should be noted that it is this "commercial" milk that all the dairy research is conducted on!

 

[The Vegan Issue]

[Commercial Milk]

[Milk Facts]

 

So although vegans certainly have strong scientific evidence, albeit — limited to the effects of "commercial" dairy on humans, we should also recognize the overwhelming evidence of one of the world's oldest cultures — Hinduism. And at the same time not generalize that "all milk is the same." It isn't.

 

So having said that, some may be wondering why I (a practicing Hindu) decided to go vegan. Well, it is partly the same reason as most vegans: I am vehemently against the viscous and cruel commercial dairy industry that exploits cows. It is certainly hypocritical for any Hindu to support it. On the other hand, I do not have a problem with people who love and care for a cow at home or on a farm and who accept the excess milk the cow offers with love. (By the way, it is not completely true that a cow must be in calf to produce milk. This is another generalization bandied about in the vegan movement. There are many examples to the contrary, including one cow at the Hare Krishna Bhaktivedanta Manor in England that has been giving milk 9 years after calf!!! How is that possible? The cow feels loved and she offers her milk with love).

 

So in that sense I am a "conditional vegan." A new kind of Hindu, that will only accept milk from loved and protected cows and from those that are not slaughtered, as are the cows at the organic dairies (another hypocrisy of the modern day).

 

As for the popular Krishna argument that "because the food is blessed by Krishna it is somehow ok." This is a pretty weak argument but does have some validity in the sense that all our food should be blessed (offered to) by God as a humble act of sacrifice. After all, we come into this world with nothing and we leave the same. Ultimately, therefore, we are never the proprietors of anything but are merely borrowing from God. When we offer our food to God first (before we eat it), we acknowledge our dependency and consequently the food is purified of any karma. Hence, the term "karma-free" food.

 

Because there is a small degree of violence even in the gathering and preparation of vegan meals, they can never be totally karma-free or “ahimsa.” If, however, we offer our food to God to eat first, that food becomes pure, antiseptic, and spiritually nourishing! Hindus call this food "prasada," or the mercy of Krishna. Our hope is that the vegan movement will also make the extra effort to "spiritualize" their meals and thus complete their quest for real peace and harmony. Despite our good intentions, if we fail to recognize God as the source of all good things, our efforts will always remain mundane, dry and inadequate.

 

So the above argument posed by certain Krishna devotees does have some validity, but it certainly does not justify their use of "commercial" dairy. A vegan´s confusion in this regard, therefore, is completely justified.

 

I hope this sheds some light on this dilemma. Food for Life Global is trying its best to bring ISKCON members up to the ideal standard outlined by our founder Srila Prabhupada. Right from the beginning of the movement he encouraged the Krishna devotees to develop self-sufficient farms that could supply all their needs, completely independent of modern society, including commercial dairy. Thus far, as a whole, ISKCON has not lived up to this dream. Granted there are exceptions in spots around the world. For example, the beautiful self sufficient ISKCON project in Brazil, called “Paramatma.”

 

The challenges of tradition

 

Finally, it should be understood that it is not easy trying to establish a religion and culture in foreign soils. Nor is it a “piece of cake” maintaining the ancient traditions that come with that culture. Dairy is a big big challenge for the Krishna devotees, but it is only one of many. For most Krishnas it will never be a high priority. In the decadent and crazed societies we now live in, the values and morals that ISKCON brings to the Western countries, including celibacy, vegetarianism, abstinence from all forms of intoxication and gambling, certainly deserve acknowledgment.

 

In any case, through Food for Life Global’s education, as well through the efforts of the vegan movement, Krishna devotees are beginning to take a good look at this commercial milk issue. We are confident it will be resolved in time, and in the not too distant future there will be a major paradigm shift and a "commercial dairy-free" diet will take hold.

 

Food for Life Global appreciates the vegan movement and encourages their members to continue cooperating with us. However, when you do, we hope that you’ll be a little more understanding of the cultural challenges organizations like ISKCON face.

 

By Paul Turner

Food for Life Global

 

Email Priyavrata Das

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>In the meantime, we can still benefit the cows, and ourselves, by offering Krsna what He likes.

 

How does offering milk to Krsna benefit the cow in any way?

 

- Nihilist

[theist 1]

Krsna would surely not like the calves and cows to be tortured and slaughtered for His glass of milk.

[Guest guest]

Putana was a baby killer and a murderer. Krsna could have boycotted Putana's breast milk when He was a baby, but instead, He drank her milk, out of compassion, and after killing her, He mercifully promoted her to Vaikuntha. He could have sent her to Hell, and from our conditioned vantage point, we would have applauded that.

 

What if you were a cow. And you spent your life in a tortured way, and you knew you would be sent to the slaughterhouse at a certain point. You were serving people by giving your milk, and still, no one showed you mercy from any quarter. What a hellish life. But if you had the opportunity to offer a cup of your milk, or even a few drops, to Krsna before you died, would you do it? If you believe in Krsna and know that He is All-Merciful and All-Grateful, wouldn't you want to please Him? To perform at least one tiny bit of service so that life wouldn't be a total waste?

 

When Krsna is pleased, magical things happen. Devotees have all heard the example of how watering the roots of the tree, all the leaves and branches become nourished. In the same way, pleasing Krsna is NOT supporting animal slaughter or animal torture, it is a step in the right direction towards putting an end to certain hellish conditions that are intrinsic in Kali Yuga. Devotees don't support cow slaughter when they offer milk to Krsna, they are supporting Arca-Vigraha and Krsna Bhakti, which ultimately purifies everything, despite the fact that our limited sense perception may cause us to doubt Krsna's mercy and how He moves in mysterious ways.

 

[gopalapriyadas 0]

>>>...anti-vaisnava activities, however, when performed for the satisfaction for guru and gauranga, there is NO SINFUL REACTION.<<<

 

 

Kirtananda is that you?

[Guest guest]

I hope you werent considering me a keith das, ill overlook your remark.

 

What the pandavas did was abominable. King Yudhisthira, prior to his lie about aswattama being dead (He even tried to maintain his position as the personification of DHARMA, TRUTH, by killing an elephant named aswattama) never has his feet touch the earth. When he uttered "Aswattama is dead!", his feet touched the ground.

 

However, while Dronacarya still had fighting spirit, there was no way that the Pandavas could be victorious, which was Krsna's desire. So the lie was told in devotional service, which transcends mundane morality.

 

One must remember that Srila Prabhupada, many times, told his disciples there was no value in ahimsa for the sake of ahimsa. There is no value in becoming vegetarian just to become vegetarian.

 

Charlie Manson would be in agreement with everything written here in regard to cruelty to animals, but what good is it. Srila Prabhupada knew of the abuses of the dairy industry, knew of the cruelty to bulls, the cruelty to cows. However, there is nowhere where he tells that commercially obtained milk be boycotted due to these Kali Yuga events. To come up with a new philosophy based on the teachings of PETA is not wehere I personally wish to go, no matter how much I symphasize with their position statements.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Let's put Kali Yuga and Srila Prabhupada to one side for a minute. If, as an individual, you judge that drinking milk is condoning animal suffering, and you don't like animal suffering, then don't do it.

 

>What if you were a cow. And you spent your life in a tortured way, and you knew you would be sent to the slaughterhouse at a certain point. You were serving people by giving your milk, and still, no one showed you mercy from any quarter. What a hellish life. But if you had the opportunity to offer a cup of your milk, or even a few drops, to Krsna before you died, would you do it? If you believe in Krsna and know that He is All-Merciful and All-Grateful, wouldn't you want to please Him? To perform at least one tiny bit of service so that life wouldn't be a total waste?

 

Sadly, a cow doesn't even have the brain circuits to recognize the name Krsna, let alone know anything about his attributes. What they do have, however, is the capability to suffer.

 

- Nihilist

[Guest guest]

"Sadly, a cow doesn't even have the brain circuits to recognize the name Krsna, let alone know anything about his attributes."

 

Yes. But the cow receives benefit regardless. It's something called "ajnata sukriti." I won't even bother trying to explain that to you, since you are an avowed atheist and wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

"Let's put Kali Yuga and Srila Prabhupada to one side for a minute. If, as an individual, you judge that drinking milk is condoning animal suffering, and you don't like animal suffering, then don't do it."

 

You're missing the point, nihilist, which is understandable, since you do not believe in God. Vaishnavas drink milk only after Krsna has drunk the milk, at which point the milk is then transformed into prasad, spiritual footstuff, cintamani. I have already stated that if one is drinking milk merely for one's own sense gratification, without any intent to please Krsna (sadhana bhakti), then one should refrain from drinking milk. I'm debating the case from a Vaishnava viewpoint (not that I'm necessarily a Vaishnava), so there's no question of putting Srila Prabhupada, Krsna, and Kali Yuga aside.

[theist 1]

 

I have already stated that if one is drinking milk merely for one's own sense gratification, without any intent to please Krsna (sadhana bhakti), then one should refrain from drinking milk.

 

 

Well this is something every individual will have to find out from within themselves.

 

But let me ask a hypothetical. Not that it ever happens /images/graemlins/wink.gif but just suppose someone was just offering the milk as a routine ritual that was the duty to perform everyday while living in the temple. Just carelessly placing the cup before the Deity and removing it after the arati, kind of like a sleep walker. Or was thinking the whole time that he couldn't wait for arati to be offer so he could drink his nightly banana milk.

 

Not really offered right? So does the helpless cow still get her ajnata-sukriti? Does the offerer still drink prasadam or does it still contain the karmic reaction because it wasn't really offered.

 

Remember Krsna says "... offers with love and devotion I will accept it."

 

Just a question to think about.

 

Did you read Priyavrata's articles that I posted? What do you think?

 

[Guest guest]

Most of us begin as neophytes, with sense desires, and I'm sure Krsna understands this, and as long as we sincerely serve under the guidance of a pure devotee, Krsna accepts the offerings. At least, that's been my understanding. I guess it's a matter of having faith in the process, as well as having faith in your guru. Yes, love and devotion are required. But that's why we offer food through the Guru. He has that prema, and if we follow his instructions, then our offerings are accepted, and we progress in bhakti.