The "Bhakti" business

[theist 1]

Seminars for sale: bhakti or business?

by Anantadeva das

 

Posted October 26, 2004

 

Since the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada, it has become a widening practice within ISKCON to charge fixed fees for courses on the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, etc., and even mundane psychology, something unheard of in the manifest presence of Srila Prabhupada. One recent advertised course costs 10,000 rupees, exclusive of room and prasadam; another course, of four months' duration, is advertised as costing 1200 euros.

 

Is this new entry into Vaisnava society bona fide? Is the demand for money in return for instruction in Krsna consciousness in line with the principles of unmotivated bhakti and the traditions of our sampradaya?

 

Srila Prabhupada has declared that, according to the rules of Manu, Yajnavalkya, Parasara and other sages, the sages and brahmins who advised kings such as Pariksit would never have accepted a salary. Prabhupada frequently cited the example of Canakya, who continued to live simply without accepting any salary, even after being appointed prime minister for Candragupta Maurya, declaring that a brahmin who accepts a salary descends to the level of a sudra, or even a dog.

 

Many examples can be found in the Vedabase in which Srila Prabhupada castigates people who receive money for offering instruction, even calling them "professional Bhagavatam reciters."

 

"A brahmin is eager to see that people are educated," he declared. He was openly scornful of those who made a living from "selling Vedic mantras and reciting Srimad-Bhagavatam to maintain their families."

 

For example, in Honolulu, in 1969, he said, "Krsna says, 'You speak,' so we are speaking. That's all. Why should we charge? If somebody, out of sympathy, gives us something, we don't refuse. . . [but] there is no official cost."

 

"Teaching is the business of the brahmin. No salary." Formerly, he said, a brahmin would have a tola or catuspathi where he or she would sit down and teach. The students would bring some rice or dhal, or some other present, and the brahmins would be satisfied: "Whatever Krsna sends, that's all right."

 

Again, we hear,

 

"Only one who is completely surrendered at the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, depending fully on Him for personal maintenance or even for maintenance of his family, can attain perfection by recitation of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is full of narrations of the pastimes of the Lord and His devotees.

 

"The process can be summarized as follows: the audience must be faithfully receptive to the Bhagavata message, and the reciter should completely depend on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Bhagavata recitation must not be a business.

 

"If done in the right way, not only does the reciter achieve perfect satisfaction, but the Lord also is very satisfied with the reciter and the audience, and thus both are liberated from material bondage simply by the process of hearing."

 

ISKCON, in the matter of attempting to educate its members in Vaisnavism, has now adopted the college paradigm of the mleccha/yavana society rather than that of the Vedic culture. One pays a fee and receives a certificate, as in a mundane college.

 

Such financially based procedures are unheard of in the Vaisnava literatures Srila Prabhupada worked so hard to present. In fact, they are actively condemned. Certainly, Srila Prabhupada, even in his most penniless moments, never charged fees for instruction.

 

The practices of colleges that Srila Prabhupada referred to as 'slaughterhouses' have become the methods of ISKCON,. as the society studies but strays far from the practice of Vedic knowledge.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Everyone has an opinion about something.

[VNV 0]

That's why webcams exist, heh. They should not charge a dime though.

[theist 1]

So what is yours on the topic of selling knowledge considering the original article?

[Guest guest]

Everything can be commented upon from the outside, but who knows the reasoning on the inside except for those directly involved? It's easy to find quotes. Prabhupada also said not to give books out for free because people will not value them. See what I mean? Perhaps there are costs in hosting seminars that still make them nonprofit even if they charge. I don't know because I'm not there. So why sit on the outside and comment on everyone else's service? What if someone sat all day at the computer and commented on my service, or your service, or the writer of the original article's service? What's the sense? If we have a complaint or question, isn't it better to inquire directly from those who are hosting such events? The internet is already cluttered. Time is short. No desire to argue. Just something to think about.

[theist 1]

 

Everything can be commented upon from the outside, but who knows the reasoning on the inside except for those directly involved? It's easy to find quotes.

 

 

Apparently it is just as easy to ignore them.

 

Prabhupada also said not to give books out for free because people will not value them. See what I mean?

 

 

No. Apples and oranges. Are you suggesting that if they didn't charge for giving out knowledge that people would not value what was said? Then why not charge for Bhagavad-gita class etc. See what I mean?

 

 

 

Perhaps there are costs in hosting seminars that still make them nonprofit even if they charge.

 

 

Those costs are covered by Krsna. In this case through the congregation that support the temples in the first place. Now they are suppose to pay again to attend these seminars? As long as they are not held on temple property then whatever. Let those putting them on rent a space, advertise and collect as they wish.

 

Oh the government may call them non-profit for tax purposes but that is not the standard that Prabhupada is speaking to.

 

I don't know because I'm not there. So why sit on the outside and comment on everyone else's service? What if someone sat all day at the computer and commented on my service, or your service, or the writer of the original article's service?

 

 

 

Actually I made no comment other than to repost the article and ask you? for your comments.

 

 

What's the sense? If we have a complaint or question, isn't it better to inquire directly from those who are hosting such events?

 

 

Actually I did that about five years ago on VNN when someone wanted to host one at Berkeley temple and charge admission to the temple grounds. I protested and the sponser and i discussed it. I then predicted it would soon spread and become a new agey physcho/spiritual slant on sadhana-bhakti packaged for a particular crowd. It has.

 

The congregation already has paid for that space and its maintence and now someone wants to sell tickets to their presentation held on that very space. Don't you see something wrong with that?

 

The internet is already cluttered. Time is short. No desire to argue. Just something to think about.

 

 

Aren't you then adding to the clutter? I don't feel that way and view it as a serious point to for discussion as does one Anantadeva. I have thought about it and agree with Anantadeva 100%.

 

But if Prabhupada's own words don't convince you then what will. it's a fact this would not happen if he were embodied and among us in that way. Well he is still very much aware of what is happening. Ask yourself honestly do you think he would approve or initiate such a program himself? Be honest.

 

Just keep it off temple grounds and in the common market where it belongs.

 

[Guest guest]

eom

[Guest guest]

I agree with Anantadeva das as well.

 

Did Srila Prabhupada charge people to listen to him speak? Did he charge people to hear about Krishna? Did he charge people to hear the maha-mantra? Did he charge people for the prasadam?

 

Srila Prabhupada gave freely and people responded to his generousity by helping him with his movement.

 

Mikey

 

 

[theist 1]

Hridayänanda: Prabhupäda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?

 

Prabhupäda: No, we don’t charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brähmanas, they’ll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven’t got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.

----------------------------

 

So the temples don't produce grain but they do get it from the congregation in the form of donations. So how can they then turn around and charge the congregation for expenses?

[Guest guest]

I did not agree or disagree with Ananatadeva. Neither did I pick an argument. That was not the point. Please re-read the post. My question is what's the point of sitting around commenting here. Write to the folks involved and see what they say if it bothers you so much. Why argue with me? Argue with them. Maybe you can make a change for the better. I don't disagree with you or Srila Prabhupada. That's not my point. I was just giving you a little food for thought. All the points you make are good and can be forwarded to the respective parties. Go for it.

[Guest guest]

Traditionally, brahmanas only way to sustain thier families is by preaching. To accept donations for such work, even if the money is used for support of the family, is proper. A brahmana, by definition, is not greedy, does not cheat, and is only interested in the welfare of others, To compel one who can afford it to give a little benefits the giver and the receiver.

 

Upon initiation, a disciple is expected to go beg for funds to give to the spiritual master.

 

Krsna consciousness is given for free, but this does not mean that a vaisnava rejects anything that can be used in Krsnas service. Even the support of a vaisnava family is devotional service. Srila Prabhupada did not5 want us to be sentimentalists. He rejected the idea of giving away his books and pamphlets, stating that the recipient, if given swomething, will take it cheaply and think what he has received is without value.

 

The key to this discussion is cheating. Cheating is the downfall of many in Srila Prabhupadas foundation. Just as a famous teaching by Lord Jesus is misrepresented, the correct version is still in effect. Jesus didnt say "money is the root of all evil", he said "love of money is the root of all evil". We can learn from this important teaching. If the seminar of other venue is for making money, perhaps it is useless, but if the idea is to spread Krsna Consciousness, then by all means, compel those in attendance to give what they can afford. You aint stealing if you are giving something of thousandfold value in return.

 

So, this lesson will cost you all sixteen dollars. Send the money to this po leftist ASAP.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

And also, Srila Prabhupada instituted the ISKCON Life membership drive, charging $1,000.00.

[Guest guest]

I did not agree or disagree with Ananatadeva. Neither did I pick an argument. That was not the point. Please re-read the post. My question is what's the point of sitting around commenting here

 

this is a forum.. a place of discussions. What can we do if not comment and discuss?

[Guest guest]

>this is a forum.. a place of discussions. What can we do if not comment and discuss?

 

Yes, and I'm just throwing in a few words to this discussion that was opened by Theist. Am I supposed to agree with everything? I never condemned him or anyone. I repeat: "Just food for thought."

[Guest guest]

when grievences of attention are forwarded to (list is long for those contacted within Iskcon seniors, only real response from Praghosa Prabhu GBC chair, oh and oddly enough HH.Narayana Maharaja & Brajanatha Prabhu),from others no response, easier to ignore, no fun being ignored especially issues of paramount importance ie. grazing beefers and baby veals on Krsna's land (Saranagati b.C.farm)before shipped by "bona fide rancher"on contractual agreement signed with Saranagati board of directors) to slaughter, ----killing bears out of fear factor after irresponsible garbage detail disposal, giving bear person carcasses to local gun club reps. --- bear steaks ----yuk what karmic involvement anyone care to venture through sastic eyes or personal realization, ie. ex-hunters pre- Krsna consciousness. this topic is not hearsay --this is fact.

 

 

[Guest guest]

maha-bharat(santi-parva-,moksa-dharma ch188)

'when brahmanas commit violence,speak lies, become greedy, earn their livelihood by any and all activities,lose their purity by sinful activities, they then become degraded to sudras.

 

The paucity of our consciousness is surpassed by greed it is reprehensible as conditioned souls struggling to become Krsna conscious, therefore we are fortunate to have authority of guru and sastra to imbibe learning process to enable following in the footsteps great persons (Vaisnavas) that we may endeavor to be 'anjanjana' free from material contamination with allowances to fall at ' vara-anghrau 'the precious feet respective Vaisnava masters.

[Guest guest]

' all those who are connected to animal killing are liable'

"killing animals or any other living beings puts an impediment in the way of completing term of imprisonment in a certain body. One should therefore not kill bodies for sense gratification, for it will implicate one in sinfull activity, such merciless and unjustified action is undoubtedly crimminal---'AC Bhaktivedant swami--higer taste cookbook.

[theist 1]

Everything is present in Anantadeva's article. Please just reread it.

 

 

For example, in Honolulu, in 1969, he said, "Krsna says, 'You speak,' so we are speaking. That's all. Why should we charge? If somebody, out of sympathy, gives us something, we don't refuse. . . [but] there is no official cost."

 

 

In spiritual culture the brahmana's are the teachers and live under poverty vows. At the same time everybody in society knows that their duty is to take care of the brahmana's needs.

 

This is a system that is based on love and respect.

 

Charging at the door is cheap, faithless and degrades the effort. I guess no wandering penniless sadhus can come to these events. Hey, it's your choice, attend if you like. I'll stay outside and hang out with the penniless sadhus.

 

[Guest guest]

"The practices of colleges that Srila Prabhupada referred to as 'slaughterhouses' have become the methods of ISKCON,. as the society studies but strays far from the practice of Vedic knowledge. "

 

 

 

Lets not use prabhupada to justify our judgements, please try and understand prabhupadas mood using all statements he said on the matter, so here i post a few quotes giving the other side.

 

"Bahulasva: Jaya! (break)

Prabhupada: ...of God means first of all we must know who is God. This is the first. Then, what is this material world and what is my relationship with this material world and God. This is science of God. (break)

Bahulasva: ...you wanted the colleges named the Vedic Theological College?

Prabhupada: Yes. Hm. Don't come very near. (break) ...that the college teachers and students must be brahmana, not sudras. Sudras will not be able to understand the science of God. What was the... Now, Dr... What is his name?

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada "

 

"Prabhupada: Okay.

Gopala Krsna: "This society was formed strictly for the purpose of spreading God consciousness. We briefly submit below the misleading information as reported by Blitz and humbly inform you of the fact." What I've done is I've shown each point that Blitz has incorrectly said and then responded to it. Should I read? Okay. "Point one. Blitz Ungodly Face of Krsna Consciousness. ISKCON: The International Society for Krsna Consciousness is a worldwide community of devotees practicing the Vedic teachings, the eternal science of rendering devotional service to Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Society was founded by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, a pure devotee of God, who is coming down in parampara started by Lord Sri Krsna five thousand years ago. In other words, the roots of this movement trace back to at least five thousand years. It is not a modern concoction. In India our Society is registered under the Society Registration Act #21 of 1860. As we are a registered nonprofit organization, we are required to maintain complete account of all donations received, both within India and from abroad. Thus keep a complete account of all our expenses. Our accounts are audited every year and submitted to the income tax authorities and the charity commissioner. Very briefly, the main object of the Society, as registered with the government is..." I've given them the three main points from your memorandum of the association. "To advance, transmit, and spread the ethical and philosophical principles of Krsna consciousness, as revealed in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. And the doctrines and the observances which serve to promote and manifest the said ethical and philosophical principles in the furtherance of the subject. To build or to assist in building temples, schools, colleges, hospitals, and other buildings in connection with or for the advancement of the objects of the Society and to maintain, alter, and improve the same, including existing buildings, and to furnish and equip the same. To print, publish, sell, or cause to be printed, published or sold, or to distribute books, booklets, leaflets, daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly newspapers, magazines, or other periodicals for the purpose of giving information for the work of the Society. We refrain from four categories of sinful activities, such as meat-eating, intoxication, gambling, and illicit sex life. Furthermore, our entire life is dedicated to reading, chanting, and preaching about Krsna. We rise at 4 a.m. all over the world. So how can Blitz say that we are ungodly when we are following Lord Sri Krsna's teachings?" This is my reply to point one. It's okay?

Prabhupada: Yes, this is nice. Very good.

 

----------------------

Letter to hayagriva

 

... A few days back we have purchased a large 20,000 sq. yd. plot of land in the wealthy and most beautiful neighborhood of Bombay, and I have called Brahmananda here from Africa to work with the others to raise up our first Hare Krishna City, with very nice temple and skyscraper apartments. In March, upon returning from Mayapur, I shall lay the cornerstone and the work will begin. We have collected sufficient funds to begin the work, and the rest will not be difficult to get. Part of the space will be used for a school and college of this Krishna Consciousness, especially to attract the bright young Indian boys and girls, so I think that you shall have to come here in future to take charge of such institution of learning, either in Bombay or in Mayapur.

I Hope this will meet you in good health and happy mood.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

e important political leaders in your Washington, D.C., so I am requesting you especially should take up this task very seriously of convincing your nation's leaders to give us all cooperation, and we shall in turn volunteer our all services to help them. By our mutual combination I am certain that we can improve the entire humanity to the point of spiritual understanding and thus automatically eliminate the basis for wars, poverty, disease, inequality, insufficient supplies of foodstuffs, and so many other problems that plague our so-called civilized societies. Another thing is, wherever I shall be from now on I want the Bhagavata Seminar to go on. In San Diego, I spoke at one such seminar on "Hinduism" which attracted many scholarly persons from all over the United States. So I am thinking that if we arrange similar seminar programs in the future, wherever I am speaking at the time, that will be a great success. So I am coming to New Vrindaban for the Janmastami celebration by end of August from Europe, so if you can arrange and advertise widely for such Bhagavata Dharma seminar or festival, I shall speak for minimum 7 days on the subject matter of Bhagavata Dharma. You may invite all the intelligent class of men, like students, professors, philosophers, scientists, educationists, like that, and they can pay some fee and we shall give them all facilities for living, and they shall attend our classes daily for some set period and take away immense benefit. I am enclosing the copy of one sample advertisement for the seminar in San Diego. Similarly, we can arrange such seminar at New Vrindaban. What do you think?

Hoping this will meet you in good health.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

The varnasrama college means to train people in varnasrama life. In human society a section of people must act as strict brahmanas. Similarly, another section must act as strict ksatriyas, still another as strict vaisyas, and the rest will be considered as sudras and less than sudras or the candalas. This is a materialistic division, but spiritually anyone can be elevated to the transcendental position simply by devotional service. This is the sum and substance of the Vedic education. If you and Siddha Svarupa Maharaja can organize such an institution following yourself the rules and regulations then it will be very glorious thing and I shall be very happy. But in any case both of you do not forget to come to Mayapur during Caitanya Mahaprabhu's birth ceremony. Let us act co-operatively, maybe sometimes separately, but the central point and aim should be one--Krsna.

Your idea for the scholastic institution as discussed with you and Siddha Svarupa Maharaja is a very good idea.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

First thing is that temples are also colleges, which ive read somewhere on the veda base, thay can also teach various things, to attract people. I know that the bhativedanta manor where initially set up as a vedic college but was run as a temple, now they have courses and seminars on various topics, such as learning sanskrit, astrology, stress management from the gita, instrument classes etc, and the crowd they attract in most of the courses are not congregation they are those who would never of come to the temple for a bhagvatam class.

 

There is never any charge with issues dealing with bhakti unless material such as books and worksheets etc are provded. (Or actally i know of other temples where a very small fee is taken when the course is run for a few weeks as this makes sure only interested people come else it will spoil the planned group work programs etc with devotees dropping out (they also say that if the small fee is a problem it can be waived as long as person is serious)).

 

Most of the courseS are run on weekdays when the temple is practiaclally empty.

 

No, bhagavatam classes are not charged for, niether are any of the 4 to 5 lectures that run on sundays charged for which deal with straight bhakti.

 

Im sure there can be excesses and some temples may not manage so well but this has to be dealt on a case by case basis not branding all with the same brush.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[krsna 3]

Yes,you can buy Krsna at the marketplace cheap,yes???

 

Why not ? It makes good business sense, that you can purchase Krsna from the fancy-free and foot-loose sadhus.

 

Money is the honey that is in the jar. No use lickin the outside of the jar. Leave that for the poor folks who can't afford the price of admission for those 'bhakti' seminars.

[Guest guest]

>>Everything is present in Anantadeva's article. Please just reread it.

.........................................................

I'm sorry that you missed my point, which I tried to emphasize at least three times. There is nothing to defend because we're talking about two different things.

.........................................................

In reply to:

--------------------------

>>For example, in Honolulu, in 1969, he said, "Krsna says, 'You speak,' so we are speaking. That's all. Why should we charge? If somebody, out of sympathy, gives us something, we don't refuse. . . [but] there is no official cost."

--------------------------

>>In spiritual culture the brahmana's are the teachers and live under poverty vows. At the same time everybody in society knows that their duty is to take care of the brahmana's needs.

 

>>This is a system that is based on love and respect.

..........................................................

 

Agreed. Again, that's not the point. Why not extend enough love and respect to the devotees to at least consider approaching them first to see their side of the story before condemning their decisions behind their backs?

 

..........................................................

>>Charging at the door is cheap, faithless and degrades the effort. I guess no wandering penniless sadhus can come to these events. Hey, it's your choice, attend if you like. I'll stay outside and hang out with the penniless sadhus.

..........................................................

 

I'm pennliness and I don't charge for my service. But I do understand that temples, which are situated in buildings, cost money to operate. Even flowers for the deities cost money. I never said that I agreed with those methods. I simply asked why not write THEM and find out instead of jumping to conclusions about other devotees' service.

 

Sorry, but pulling out a string of quotes doesn't always work. No one - not even Prabhupada's intimate disciples - were ever sure just how Srila Prabhupada would apply the scripture to time, place and circumstance. But one thing we know is that Prabhupada always had common sense. In fact one time Srila Prabhupada even told an arguer not to "bring in any scriptures" into the discussion. He challenged him to use common sense instead. We have to be practical. Therefore it's pretty risky to take Prabhupada's absolute position by using his quotes as backup for every situation. No one can predict with 100% surety what Srila Prabhupada would say or do in any given situation. (They're STILL arguing over what Prabhupada said or meant.)

 

Again, I'm not defending their actions. Perhaps they're pocketing huge amounts of money and maybe not. Do thousands of people attend those seminars? "I don't know." So I just asked you if you're sure that you know all the details. After all: "This is a system that is based on love and respect." Right? Please don't take this personally, then maybe you'll see my simple point. We can all learn. No harm in that.

.......................................................

 

 

 

[theist 1]

Those quotes don't relate in my mind. One may where Srila Prabhupada was thinking about a fee for living expenses, NOT KNOWLEDGE. And do you know what was decided? He just posed the suggestion.

 

I don't see a fee for living expenses as a problem. If the actual classes are figured in to that fee then I do. But who cares what I think anyway.

 

Maybe I am paranoid but I would hate to think that ISKCON would drift towards a Scientology sort of format where people are required to pay again and again for higher and higher knowledge.

 

You know like:

 

$100 for basic Aham Brahmasmi level

$300 more for Supersoul realization

$500 more for Vaikuntha awe and reverance

$1000 more for each of the next more immediate rasas such as sankya and vatsalya

and $10,000 more for the rare prime Madhurya rasa with added manjari flavor.

 

I am not kidding. I really am that much of a cynic.

 

Anyway I read what Anantadeva posted and what you have also posted and to me his argument is the far superior one being right on point.

 

I am not interested in furthering a long discussion on this. I just posted the original post because I see value in it. I will stick to that.

 

It's just disagreement. No hard feelings.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

Man it is a pain responding to guests. I don't know which is which. I know it is very difficult to attach some identifier to your posts for the sake of conversation.

 

Why don't you take your own advice and ask Anantadeva about his point of view.

 

All of ISKCON may head in this direction. It's nothing new. I am just concerned with the direction I will be choosing to go in.

 

I'm a big boy and know it takes funds to put anything on and always manage to donate enough to cover myself and at least one other person who may not have funds or enough understanding yet to do what's right. But if there is a admission charge i will just take that as a cue to skip the whole thing.

 

Others will make their own decisions.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry that I'm a pain, and I'm sorry that my logic is inferior to Anantadeva's. I didn't want to get into an argument or longwinded discussion, therefore I made a short comment. I said right from the beginning that I din't want to argue or clutter the internet. Please read my posts, and not INTO my posts.

 

George Harrison charged money for "My Sweet Lord." And, in fact, "The Hare Krishna Mantra" record by the London devotees cost money to buy. George Harrison lived in Friar Park. How many rooms? 140 or something. He loved race cars. Still, he pleased Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada bought many mansions for Krishna. His movement grew on the strength of book sales. Spiritual Sky incense costs money. EVERYTHING costs money. You computer costs money. This web site costs money.

 

There is a popular misconception nowadays that spiritual life means poverty. But there are many "sadhus" in India who beg on the street, and who dust themselves off at the end of the day and buy bidhis, liquor and illicit sex.

 

So with my inferior logic, I'm just saying that we should know for sure what's going on before we draw conclusions and make public accusations. I think that's fair and square.

 

Oh yeah, I agree. It does look tacky. But then "I don't know" for sure. Do any of us? You can't judge a book by its cover. That's the point.

 

Regards,

Painful Guest

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey gimme two weeks of vatsalya rasa, I got a coupla hundred, Okay. Preferrably in Mauritius where the december waves are the worlds best. Now, vatsalya, a condo, air fare and a rental to get me to the beach, $10,000. Two weeks. (Oh, dont forget the VCR, I gotta watch my farenheit 911, between tears of ecstacy).

 

haribol, ys, mahak

 

PS I could think of a lot worse arguements to get into, lets be happy, okay (ill sell you a little samkirtana Bliss ca 1971 honolulu, $200 COD)