Gopi Bhava books...can we read them?

[gopidust 0]

Why did the six goswamis write down exalted books of loving pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna? It was only five hundred years ago. Was it under direction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Was it because all of them could not HELP but write these things down, as they were feeling the mellows of SEPERATION from Sri Sri Radha and Krishna and were DEVASTATED? If so, I can understand that.

 

But what have the acaryas said about reading these books? Did Bhaktivinode Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta say we could read some or all of them? Did Srila Prabhupada? I heard we CANNOT READ THEM AT ALL! If we cannot read them can any Gaudiya Vaishnavas read them? If they were to be allowed to read them would they also have to be completely pure? Can only pure devotees read these books???

[vanamali 1]

Everyone can read them, but not when you're first starting out, because you might think what happens between Radha and Krishna is like mundane interactions between man and woman in the material world! They might not understand it is so very sacred!

[gopidust 0]

are there any statements from guru,sadhu and sastra backing up your position? I have been hearing so many different thoughts on the matter. I need something authoritative.

[theist 1]

I can't direct you or anyone but since I have a vedabase i'll try to find something. Here is something.

 

 

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous äcäryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhägavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Viçvanätha Cakravarté Thäkura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir açru-pulakayoù sator api yad dhådayaà na vikriyeta tad açma-säram iti kaniñöhädhikäriëäm eva açru-pulakädi-mattve ’pi açma-sära-hådayatayä nindaiñä. “Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned.” The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in the reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous äcäryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jéva Gosvämi, following the previous äcäryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.

 

 

I know a few years ago I bought a copy of Govinda-lilarta. After just a few pages I knew I shouldn't read anymore and still have it here with me hoping for a more favorable future.

 

I wasn't prepared. That is not a relection on the work itself just on my lacking the proper maturity. But also I can sense a certain seed came through. I perceive a certain attraction to that lila that I can't understand or describe tucked away somewhere within. Like a seed that has been placed below the soil, out of sight but still present.

 

What is needed in much more concentration on Krsna's position in relationship to mine and some realization of his energies. This initial watering coupled with keeping the surrounding soil free of weeds may bring fruit some day.

 

But others may have long since past this point so why should they wait? i think it takes some revelation from the Lord as to our honest position and I don't trust blanket statements given out that are supposed to cover everyone.

 

I'll look some more.

[theist 1]

Paramahaàsa: Çréla Prabhupäda, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous äcäryas.

Prabhupäda: Hmm?

Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda’s books or earlier books of other, all äcäryas. So I was just wondering...

Prabhupäda: I never said that.

Amogha: You didn’t say that? Oh.

Prabhupäda: How is that?

Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous äcäryas’ books.

Prabhupäda: No, you should read.

Amogha: We should.

Prabhupäda: It is misunderstanding.

[gopidust 0]

Jaya! Jaya! Jaya! Jaya! Jaya!

I so wanted to read some books! Maybe it was just certain translations Srila Prabhupada didn't want his disciples to read. I can't say how happy I am. Thank you prabhuji all glories to your service. I am done.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Just by that you WANT to read. Thiest ji said you need to look within yourself. Did you do that? Hum

 

Prabhupada said many times that devotees always try to see Rasa-lila etc, {which is in Krishna I knows:)}, but ignore other pastimes. Now I would ask your mind are you ignoring these? Even Gopis praise killing of Denakasura. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

"To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary."

 

This is the caveat that is all important. Conclusive discussion about Krsna and His potencies, or Saktis, is what is first, "absolutely necessary".

 

O.K

 

Why ?

 

Simple really. The descriptions of Krsna and his rasa lila with His Hladini Sakti is easily misunderstood. Without knowledge of the tattva concerning Krsna and His Hladini Sakti, you will misunderstand rasa lila, completely.

 

What is Hladini Sakti ?

 

This is from Raghava Goswami's Sri Krsna-bhakti-ratna-prakasa:

 

"Sri Radha is manifested from half of Lord Krsna’s body. This is described in the following verse of Padma Purana:

 

"Sri Radha is the original potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is beautiful, graceful, saintly and full of all transcendental qualities. She enjoys pastimes in the forest of Vrndavana. She is manifested from half of Lord Mukunda’s transcendental body."

 

This is also confirmed in the Sammohana-tantra, Patala 1:

 

"His form is eternally full of bliss. It is never any other way. Radha is full of bliss. Lord Hari is full of bliss.

 

"Their forms are not composed of material elements. Their forms are full of bliss. They are the single Supreme Spirit, manifested as two for the knowledge of the devotees.

 

"The wise know that as a spark is one with the fire, so the potency and the master of potencies are one.

 

That Sri Radha is manifested from half of Lord Krsna’s body is also described in the Govinda-Vrndavana-sastra, where Sri Krsna says to Balarama:

 

"O Balarama, please listen and I will tell You something. One day, taking My flute, My heart full of bliss and My form bending in three places, I went under a kadamba tree and, seeing My own form reflected in a splendid golden platform studded with jewels, I became enchanted. At that moment My heart became filled with the sweet happiness known as conjugal love, which charms the entire world. My heart now desires to become a woman. I yearn to enjoy Myself as a woman.

 

"As the Lord thought in this way, His heart approached itself. From the sweetness of His heart came bliss and from the bliss came Himself, manifested in a second form, a female form of transcendental bliss that could experience the direct perception of Himself.

 

"At that time a goddess, whose form was nectar, whose fair complexion was like a host of lightning flashes, and who was decorated with glittering ornaments, appeared from the Lord’s left side. She is known as Radha, who is half of Krsna’s body, and who is the mistress of all potencies."

 

This is also described in Sri Krsna-yamala, Patala 114, where Tripura says to Lord Vasudeva"

 

"In the word aum, the letter a stands for Sri Krsna. The letter u stands for Sri Radhika, the original potency, who manifested from the Lord’s desire. The letter m stands for the lotus feet of this divine couple."

 

This is also described in the Govinda-Vrndavana-sastra, where Lord Krsna says to Balarama:

 

"My beloved Radhika is the form of My three transcendental potencies. As I am beyond the touch of matter, so is She, whose form is My potency.

 

"Manifest in three forms, I am spiritual, My form is beyond the touch of the three modes of matter. I am the master of everything, and She is the mistress of this master of everything. She is said to be the kriya-sakti. She has the same sweetness as the other two saktis."

 

That Radha is manifested from half of Lord Krsna’s form, and that She is the personification of all transcendental potencies is described in the Sammohana-tantra, where Narada Muni prays:

 

"O wonderfully opulent one, O one even Brahma, Siva, and all the demigods can approach, who are You? You never touch the path of the great yogis meditation.

 

"The potencies iccha-sakti, jnana-sakti and kriya-sakti, are tiny parts of parts of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

"Whatever inconceivable potencies are the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, the handsome master of all potencies, they are all the expansions of your expansions."

 

In this way it may be concluded that all potencies of the Lord are manifested from Sri Radha."

 

 

 

So here we are informed that the Hladini Sakti, Radha, is the female aspect of Sri Krsna.

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 8.150-152

 

krsnera ananta-sakti, ta'te tina pradhana

cic-chakti, mayasakti, jiva-sakti-nama

antaranga,bahiranga, tatastha kahi yare

antaranga svarupa-sakti sabara upare

 

Krsna has unlimited potencies, which can be divided into three main parts. These are the spiritual energy, the material energy and the marginal energy, which is known as the living entities. In other words, these are all potencies of God - internal, external, and marginal. However, the internal energy is the Lord's personal energy and stands over the other two.

 

 

Here we are told that the Cit Sakti, the internal energy, is different from the other two potencies.

 

How so ?

 

In Krsna Sandarbha, Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of Krsna.

 

"This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

 

The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them."

 

 

So here we see that there are two types of living beings, Svamsa expansions or Visnu tattva, who are all identical to Krsna, and then there are Vibhinnamsa expansions, the jivas.

 

So, what about Radha, Laksmi, etc ? What and who are they ?

 

Are they Svamsa or Vibhinnamsa ?

 

First thing to understand is the Internal potency, Cit Sakti.

 

Cit Sakti is Krsna's personal internal potency, this means that Cit Sakti represents Krsna. Maya Sakti represents the material world, Jiva Sakti represents ourselves.

 

Cit Sakti is Krsna's personal energy, it is best described here by Bhaktivinoda in Jaiva Dharma:

 

"Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun.

 

Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is the cit-sakti, it is present in fullness.

 

In addition to the centre there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire.

 

The same way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight.

 

The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency. Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls.

 

The Cit Sakti (internal potency) manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself.

 

The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti."

 

 

So the Cit Sakti or Internal Potency, is that aspect of Krsna, which is fully Krsna, and nothing else.

 

Again Bhaktivinoda explains in Jaiva Dharma:

 

"The chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities.

 

The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished (not jivas); their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti.

 

The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna.

 

Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti.

 

From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit.

 

Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies.

 

When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha."

 

In other words, Cit Sakti is God, without anything to do with the Jiva, or the material world.

 

If you take the totality of God, we split that into 3 parts. The part that is purely spiritual, completely powerfull, like the sun, is the Internal Cit Sakti. Then the rest of the totality of God is Jivas, particles within the sunshine, emanating from the sun. Then there is the material energy, which is really the same thing as Cit Sakti, although categorized as different. Thats another topic though.

 

So the forms of Radha and Krsna, are manifest from the Cit Sakti.

 

From Srila Prabhupada purport in Cc

 

"Radha and Sri Krsna are identical. The sandhini portion of Sri Krsna's internal potency has manifested the all-attractive form of Sri Krsna, and the same internal potency, in the hladini feature, has presented Srimati Radharani, who is the attraction for the all-attractive. No one can match Srimati Radharani in the transcendental pastimes of Sri Krsna."

 

 

The Cit Sakti is manifesting Radha and Krsna, they are identical, and they are identical with Cit Sakti.

 

 

 

"Although some authoritative Vaisnava disciplic successions count the goddess of fortune among the ever-liberated living entities (jivas) in Vaikuntha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in accordance with the statement in the Visnu Purana, has described Laksmi as being identical with the visnu-tattva. The correct conclusion is that the descriptions of Laksmi as being different from Visnu are stated when an eternally liberated living entity is imbued with the quality of Laksmi; they do not pertain to mother Laksmi, the eternal consort of Lord Visnu."

(A.C. Bhaktivedanta Srimad Bhagavatam purport 6.19.13)

 

 

So we have Radha and Krsna, Both are manifested from the Internal Potency, and are identical to it.

 

 

As Jiva Goswami has said in his Bhakti Sandarbha already:

 

"The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them."

 

 

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya lila 8.154-155

 

sac-citanandamaya krsnera svarupa

ata eva svarupa-sakti haya tina-rupa

anandamse hladini sadamse sandhini

cid-amse samvit ya're jnana kari' mani

 

Lord Krsna is sac-cidnananda-vigraha the transcendental form of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. Therefore His personal energy (svarupa-sakti, the internal energy of the Lord) has three different forms. Hladini is His energy of ecstasy, beauty, sweetness, charm, harmony; sandhini, His energy of eternal existence, or reality; and samvit, of cognizance, knowledge, awareness.

 

 

And then from Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Govinda Bhasya:

 

 

"The Sruti-sästras and other scriptures explain that through the svarüpa-sakti(internal potency) the Supreme Lord manifests as the best of males, and through the parä sakti(internal potency) the Lord manifests His various transcendental qualities.

 

Manifesting as the Lord's pleasure potency (hladini sakti), the parä Sakti appears as Sri Rädhä, the jewel of teenage girls."

 

 

So here we are being told that Krsna is a manifestation of the Sandhini Sakti, the aspect of the internal energy of eternal existence, or reality.

 

Radha is a manifestation of the Hladini Sakti, the aspect of the internal energy of energy of ecstasy, beauty, sweetness, charm, harmony. Radha is the manifestation of the Lords various transcedental personal qualities.

 

They are identical, But Radha is specifically pointed out as manifesting the personal qualities of God.

 

 

From Jaiva Dharma

"Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words:

 

"The Absolute Truth is one. Still, by His inconceivable potency He is manifested in four ways: 1. svarupa (His original form), 2. tad-rupa-vaibhava (His incarnations), 3. jiva (the individual spirit souls), and 4. pradhana (the material energy). These four features are like: 1. the interior of the sun planet, 2. the sun's surface, 3. the sunlight, and 4. the reflection of the sun."

 

This example of course, explains only a small part of the Lord's nature. His svarupa (original form) is His form of eternity, knowledge and bliss. His svarupa-vaibhava (manifestations of His form) are His spiritual abode, name, associates and paraphernalia. The jiva-sakti is the abode of the numberless eternally liberated and conditioned individual souls, who are tiny particles of spirit."

 

 

 

This description of the Sun and the surface of the Sun is very apropo. You cannot see beyond the surface of the Sun when you look at it. The Sun is contained within the surface. So the various incarnations of Krsna's Cit Sakti, are what you can see of the Krsna Sun, but within all of those incarnations, is Krsna. They are all Him in various forms.

 

Baladeva Vidyabhusana explains in Govinda Bhasya:

 

"Isvara is supremely independent. He is the master of all potencies. He enters the universe and controls it. He awards both material enjoyment and ultimate liberation to the individual spirit souls residing in material bodies. Although He is one, He manifests in many forms. They who understand the transcendental science maintain that He is not different from His own transcendental form and qualities. Although He cannot be perceived by the material senses, He can be perceived by bhakti. He is changeless. He reveals His own spiritual, blissful form to His devotees.

 

"Of all the eternals, one is the supreme eternal. Of all conscious entities, one is the supreme conscious entity."

 

- - Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.13

 

As a vaidürya jewel manifests many different colors, so the Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee may meditate on all the Lords qualities, as described in the scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord that is chosen for worship.

 

Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sütra explains: "sarväbhedäd" because of complete non-difference. This means that because there is no difference in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopäla-täpané Upanisad in these words:

 

eko pi san bahudha yo vabhati

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

Also, in the Smriti-sastra it is said:

 

ekaneka-svarupaya

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms. The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.

 

In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in essence. Although this truth was also described in sütra 3.2.14, the merciful teacher of Vedänta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood.

 

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

 

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.

 

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

 

Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.

 

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

 

O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.

 

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

 

When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.

 

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

 

In the land of Gokula in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.

 

There it is also said:

 

Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha."

 

 

 

 

From Prabhupada's Cc purport

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical.

 

Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas.

 

Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.

 

Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions.

 

All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms.

 

These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

 

So, without fully understanding all of the intracacies of Krsna's potencies, you cannot possible understand rasa lila.

 

Lets hear some more from Sri Jiva Goswami on the true nature of Laksmi. He has just named the principal 16 wives in Dwaraka, whom he says are all expansions of Rukmini, whom he calls the original Laksmi. Now remember, Jiva has already told us that no one but Krishna, can expand into many forms.

 

Krishna Sandarbha:

 

 

Anuccheda 183

 

"These sixteen queens of Lord Krsna are His transcendental potencies. Lord Krsna appears like the splendid moon, and these queens appear like the sixteen phases of this Krsna-moon.

 

O beautiful Gauri, these queens appear like the sixteen phases of the moon, which begin with the new moon day and proceed for sixteen days culminating in the full moon.

 

Among these sixteen queens, Kala-devi, who is supremely auspicious, and nicely decorated with garlands and ornaments, is very prominent. These sixteen principal queens of Lord Krsna expand into many thousands of queens. In this way the potencies of Lord Krsna are manifest.

 

They who understand this confidential instruction about the Lord’s potencies, whose forms are all composed of transcendental knowledge, are known as Vaisnavas, pure devotees of Lord Vishnu (sa jneyo vaisnavo budhaih)."

 

 

 

 

So here Jiva is comparing Krishna to the moon, and the various Laksmis to phases of the moon, and then he tells us that "they who understand this confidential instruction about the Lord's potencies, are known as Vaisnavas, pure devotees of Lord Visnu"

 

 

From Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

"Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view.

 

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach."

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

But the way in which you presented the above seems you have tinges of Mayavadi in you.

[theist 1]

I seem to have forgotten what enthusiasm is. Go for it , let no one hold you back. But it may be best to keep it as a hidden treasure. What I mean is if we look to the example of Srila Prabhupada he kept portions of his inner life rather secret. Some may have been allowed in but I don't know who. He spoke and wrote so much. So we can get a good idea of how we are to proceed by taking note of what topics he emphasized and what he kept inside.

 

While certainly living in the highest state of Krsna consciousness he was also very down to earth about it at the same time. Very practical.

 

Maybe we should practice that also. This gopi-bhava seems so very intimate, so private. Sometimes devotees tend to break off into cliques over this issue. Some become somewhat adverse to preaching the very basics of Krishna consciousness but that wasn't Prabhupada's mood.

 

It's probably wiser for us to proceed cautiously and quietly always holding that rasa in sight and above us as best we can.

[Guest guest]

If you're open about it you might start thinking too much about your feelings. Even Caitanya once felt that all His crying was fake- just to get worldly fame and glory. (Which of course is not true, but since we really are "lower than straw in the street" it is easy to feel that way. So do try to keep your feelings secret, except to your closest closest friends. Otherwise you will psych yourself out and you won't know what you're feeling...

 

Just keep it between you and Radha and Krishna. Just think of them and let whatever feeling you have for Them be private. You don't have to prove anything to anyone in the world. They may praise or blame you for your feelings, but ignore it... just keep focused on Their Lordships only.

[Guest guest]

Pankaja, you do realize all I did was quote sastra ? Next time before you make such an ignnorant statement, you may want to first try and learn what the words you use mean.

Mayavadi means Advaitavada, where there is no God, just an impersonal force, kind of like your foolish statement. No offense, but you claim that Gaudiya sastra is mayavadi, or am I wrong ? Can you show anywhere where I wrote something that was not sastra ?

 

I'm getting tired of two bit armchair acaryas making foolish holier then thou pronouncements.

[gopidust 0]

It may have been from the "Matha" but it seemed alright but I didn't read it all. I hope all that wasn't for my benefit alone. I will go back to reading Srila Prabhupada's books. I don't reveal anything to anybody who personally knows me about what I feel for Radharani because that would definately be seen as sahajiya and I don't need that! I will stick to Prabhupada's books with a few exceptions and will study more soon. I only have two or three days online before I cancel. Thanks for all the help. dust

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

Well it did to see. You also provided your own quotes. I wasn't talking about others. Maybe its my Mind. Sorry/

[Guest guest]

I provided my own quotes? No, I quoted Prabhupada, Bhaktivinoda, Jiva Goswami, Raghava Goswami and they quoted other Gaudiya sastra. All I did was repeat what the quotes said.

 

Pankaja if you are going to make such an offensive remark (calling a vaisnava a mayavadi is like calling a christian a pagan) you should be able to show exactly where I promoted a mayavadi teaching. Otherwise why did you say that ?

 

Are you all of a sudden so advanced that you can take the poisition of the Grand Inquisitor and make judgements on the Heretic by your whim ?

 

Show where there is a mayavadi statement, or admit your foolishness and offensive remark.

 

 

 

Gopidust-Those quotes are mostly from Prabhupadas books, and also from celebrated Gaudiya acaryas. For your own benefit you should study siddhanta before you go around thinking you are a great devotee. You have been posting all over the web the same questions, getting the same answers. Then you always claim afterwards that any writings but Prabhupadas are "Gaudiya Math", and worthless.

 

Do you have any idea that the Gaudiya Math was started by Bhaktisiddhanta ? All of the quotes I wrote down are from before the Gaudiya Math existed.

 

Are you so advanced that you can treat vaisnavas with such utter contempt?

 

Why do you ask if you can read the books by the Goswamis, and then condemn any books but Prabhupadas ?

 

Clearly you have some twisted agenda. Your "love" for Radha, is like a greedy persons love for money. You "love" the idea of Radha, You would "love" to enjoy everything She can provide for your enjoyment. You "love" enjoyment, and since you are told that the most enjoyment is available in Goloka, you then would "love" to be there and enjoy.

 

That is not real "love", it is the exact same thing as love of wealth and sense enjoyment. If I say I love the Princess of the Spanish Royal family, what does that really mean ?

 

I have never seen her, never met her, yet I am told she is beautiful, super rich, and generous. So I would "love" to enjot what she has to offer me.

 

Your so called "love" is exactly the same. You have never met, nor seen Radha, yet you have heard she rules the universe, is the most beautiful girl in existence, so therefore she can provide you with eternal pleasure, so you "love" her, or so you are fond of telling us over and over.

 

Real love is about relationships, it is about loving the person's personality, not just the idea of what that person can provide for your enjoyment. Real love or Prema, is about loving the person for the person, regardless of wealth, fame or beauty, it is about loving the personality, it is something that develops after meeting someone.

 

Otherwise my love for the princess of Spain, can be celebrated as love, just like your "love" for Radha. Both cases are nothing more then lust to enjoy what the object of "love" can provide. I "love" money, I "love" beautiful girls, I "love" to enjoy endlessly forever.

 

That is not love, that is lust.

 

If you are through playing games with everyone, let us know.

[vanamali 1]

He Govinda! He Gopala Krishna He Murari!

Jaya Sri Krishna!! Govinda Govinda!

 

Kaamam krodham bhayam sneham...

 

[gopidust 0]

I L O V E Radharani!!!

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Maybe becuase I associated with Mayavadi I can see some things. This is what made me think it:

 

Shiva: So we have Radha and Krsna, Both are manifested from the Internal Potency, and are identical to it.

 

Ps I said Tinges of Mayavadi I wasn't expecting such an over reaction.

[vanamali 1]

Mayavadi would be saying "well you can love Krishna, but in the end you and Krishna are one, and then you'll drop the outside image of God, because after all it is only a crutch," etc. etc. etc.

 

Radha IS Krishna's sakti. They ARE the same. But Krishna is the Praana naatha of Radha and not the other way. Radha is Krishna's shakti, not the other way around. So there is an ontological difference.

 

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

Yeah but what I got was Krishna is manifested from Internal Potency. Thats whay Impersonalists say..

 

Crudly that the Impersonl Aspect of God is greater.

 

Now I can't understand this, and I am going to go read 'higher' books mMmmm

[vanamali 1]

Krishna is parabramhan. His form is transcendent, He is supreme... Don't worry about the impersonal form. It is there, but even if it were "better," what interest do we have in it? None.

 

We only want Krishna! No impersonal stuff!

[Guest guest]

"Yeah but what I got was Krishna is manifested from Internal Potency. Thats whay Impersonalists say..

 

Crudly that the Impersonl Aspect of God is greater.

 

Now I can't understand this, and I am going to go read 'higher' books mMmmm"

 

 

 

So Prabhupada is an impersonalist ?

 

From Srila Prabhupada purport in Cc

 

"Radha and Sri Krsna are identical. The sandhini portion of Sri Krsna's internal potency has manifested the all-attractive form of Sri Krsna, and the same internal potency, in the hladini feature, has presented Srimati Radharani, who is the attraction for the all-attractive. No one can match Srimati Radharani in the transcendental pastimes of Sri Krsna."

 

Mayavadis do not accept Internal potency exists, Gaudiyas teach this concept, yet you call it mayavadi.

 

You therefore do not know Gaudiya siddhanta, nor Mayavadi siddhanta.

 

I am waiting for your admission of error.

[theist 1]

Pankraja, it is good you are so careful about avpoiding the mayavad conception. It truly is a deadly poison. But shiva's post was speaking on the highest conception's of theism, personalism.

 

Don't feel like the lone ranger(anybody remember him?). I don't really understand it either.

[Guest guest]

Pankaja is equating the "Internal Potency" i.e Cit Sakti, Swarupa Sakti, Para Sakti, with Brahman.

 

Which it is not.

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 8.150-152

 

krsnera ananta-sakti, ta'te tina pradhana

cic-chakti, mayasakti, jiva-sakti-nama

antaranga,bahiranga, tatastha kahi yare

antaranga svarupa-sakti sabara upare

 

Krsna has unlimited potencies, which can be divided into three main parts. These are the spiritual energy, the material energy and the marginal energy, which is known as the living entities. In other words, these are all potencies of God - internal, external, and marginal. However, the internal energy is the Lord's personal energy and stands over the other two

 

 

Cit Sakti(Internal Potency) is Krsna's personal energy, it is best described here by Bhaktivinoda in Jaiva Dharma:

 

"Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun.

 

Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is the cit-sakti, it is present in fullness.

 

In addition to the centre there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire.

 

The same way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight.

 

The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency. Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls.

 

The Cit Sakti (internal potency) manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself.

 

The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti."

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya lila 8.154-155

 

sac-citanandamaya krsnera svarupa

ata eva svarupa-sakti haya tina-rupa

anandamse hladini sadamse sandhini

cid-amse samvit ya're jnana kari' mani

 

Lord Krsna is sac-cidnananda-vigraha the transcendental form of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. Therefore His personal energy (svarupa-sakti, the internal energy of the Lord) has three different forms. Hladini is His energy of ecstasy, beauty, sweetness, charm, harmony; sandhini, His energy of eternal existence, or reality; and samvit, of cognizance, knowledge, awareness.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

I didn't understand it. Now that I read prabhupada glorious Purport I can see I am nowhere nearer to understanding this complex Theism as Thiest Put it. Sorry again.

 

I think after reading all 10 cantos I will be near. /images/graemlins/grin.gif