" I CAN'T give you Krishna ; but I CAN give you Prabhupada !"

[krsna 3]

But isn't it the guru's business to give you Krishna.

 

Why has it become a guru's business to give you Prabhupada instead ?

 

Is this a special kali yuga dispensation for most fallen types ? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Guest guest]

Hari bol Prabhu.

 

If a guru can give you S.Prabhupada, is it not good enough for you? You have not given enough information on who said this, "I can give you S.P but not Krsna".

 

By the way do you have anything against S.Prabhupada? If no, than why make an issue about it? If a Guru can give S. Prabhupada to me "Guranteed" I will be more than happy, cause I know S. Prabhupada is always with Krsna.

 

Haribol.

[Guest guest]

if one is not pure he cannot give krsna and he cannot give prabhupada.. prabhupada cannot be given separately and it is not required less purity than giving krsna

 

so, in my opinion, "i can give you prabhupada but not krsna" is a cheat

[krsna 3]

if one is not pure he cannot give krsna and he cannot give prabhupada.. prabhupada cannot be given separately and it is not required less purity than giving krsna

 

so, in my opinion, "i can give you prabhupada but not krsna" is a cheat

 

*********************************

Yes,exactly-you are speaking the truth.

[vijay 0]

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but

there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple

as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary

common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish." (Letter to Janardana, 26

April, 1968, New York).

 

They may give prabhupada (diciplic succession) by following his example and teachings although not liberated. I wouldnt call that cheating niether does prabhupada.

 

[vijay 0]

The point of my post is that please be careful in calling gurus who are following their spirtual master "cheaters".

There are different levels of gurus, and yes we should always try to find a liberated guru, but please be careful as i wouldnt want any of you guys spending many lives in this material world stunnted by vaishnav apharad.

 

[Guest guest]

They may give prabhupada (diciplic succession) by following his example and teachings although not liberated. I wouldnt call that cheating niether does prabhupada.

...if one acts as liberated he's actually liberated, and to thinking at the guru as one who is not intrinsecally liberated makes all the relationship useless.. the injunction is to make us avoid to judge and speculate on the origin of the devotion of the spiritual master, not that we have to be happy of not competent gurus. Prabhupada is an uttama adhikari, and he's an uttama adhikari because he follows perfectly bhaktisiddhanta... these two positions cannot be dinscriminated. So an uttama adhikari cannot give prabhupada separated by krsna

 

or

 

if you see your guru as one who is not perfect himself, but only because he follows a perfect master this is a great offence

[Guest guest]

The point of my post is that please be careful in calling gurus who are following their spirtual master "cheaters".

--who is acting as guru without having the direct krsna realization and without having the possibility to give it to others is not following his spiritual master

 

There are different levels of gurus, and yes we should always try to find a liberated guru, but please be careful as i wouldnt want any of you guys spending many lives in this material world stunnted by vaishnav apharad.

---vaishnava aparadha is also to make the guru's position a cheap thing.. and cheap gurus make vaishnava aparadha cheating the vaishnavas who have taken shelter in them

 

if you repeatedly go in favor of some sort of impefect guruship you give to others the suspect that this is the philosophy and the standard of iskcon... i do not think so, prabhupada's iskcon has not to be cheap.. if we make it cheap, it is not longer the real iskcon

 

 

[krsna 3]

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but

there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple

as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary

common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

(Letter to Janardana, 26

April, 1968, New York).

 

They may give prabhupada (diciplic succession) by following his example and teachings although not liberated. I wouldnt call that cheating niether does prabhupada.

 

******************************************

 

Yes,

 

"there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession."

 

What kind of 'guru' and what kind of 'acharya' can act if he or she is not able to even follow the 4 basic regulative principles of human life ???

[krsna 3]

"please be careful as i wouldnt want any of you guys spending many lives in this material world stunnted by vaishnav apharad"

 

Will do.

[vijay 0]

"...if one acts as liberated he's actually liberated, and to thinking at the guru as one who is not intrinsecally liberated makes all the relationship useless.. "

 

Read the quote again prabhupada says a non liberated devotee following strictly is still considered guru.

 

You guys are saying if a guru isnt liberated he is a "cheater", prabhupada is saying no he can still be guru although less qualified.

 

Very simple.

 

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

Haribol

 

"What kind of 'guru' and what kind of 'acharya' can act if he or she is not able to even follow the 4 basic regulative principles of human life ??? "

 

I dont know where this is coming from when did i say someone who isnt following diciplic succession can be guru?

 

Its a very simple point i think you have many other thoughts running around in your mind.

 

[Guest guest]

Read the quote again prabhupada says a non liberated devotee following strictly is still considered guru.

You guys are saying if a guru isnt liberated he is a "cheater", prabhupada is saying no he can still be guru although less qualified.

....following strictly is possible only for liberated persons, if you are not liberated by material desires but you follow krsna only for a percentage you are not strict

 

again this advice by prabhupada is to avoid to speculate on the caste, the birth or other external aspects of the guru and to avoid speculations on the position of the guru in the spiritual world and so on... to state that devotion is essentially revealed by sadhana and not by some mystic aspects, not to avail the guruship of people with problems with regulative principles, concentration on japa chanting and scripture understanding. When the guru is easily recognizable as a conditioned person, even if a good pratictioneer in comparison to the majority of devotees in some organization, he cannot be saved by this injunction and he's not a guru

 

 

[vijay 0]

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

THE POINT: A DEVOTEE NOT LIBERATED CAN ACT AS GURU.

THEREFORE AVOID CALLING NON LIBERATED GURUS "cheaters" *IF* they are following disciplic succession.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

THEREFORE AVOID CALLING NON LIBERATED GURUS "cheaters" *IF* they are following disciplic succession.

 

 

...a liberated soul can follow disciplic succession, a non liberated cannot follow... if he follows he's liberated

 

so who is not following and act as guru is a cheater

 

tell me... how can i follow in full disciplic succession if i am not liberated?

[Guest guest]

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

THE POINT: A DEVOTEE NOT LIBERATED CAN ACT AS GURU.

THEREFORE AVOID CALLING NON LIBERATED GURUS "cheaters" *IF* they are following disciplic succession.

 

Okay let me explain again you are saying you have to be liberated to follow strictly.

 

@tell me... how can i follow in full disciplic succession if i am not liberated? @

 

Look at what prabhupada says its very clear if you look and understand please try once more if you dont accept prabhupada and have your own version then thats fair enough.

 

"..but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION."

 

see... "NOT LIBERATED.. but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION."

 

See my friend NOT LIBERATED but still STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.

 

Not your definition that to be follwing strictly you have to be liberated thus guru has to be liberated. Maybe you just dont want to see thats fair enough.

 

Can it be any clearer?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

who si liberated.. follows

who follows... is liberated

 

simple

 

so there's no question of non liberated gurus

 

following parampara and being not liberated are two things that do not go together, it is like to say "false guru", because a guru cannot be false.

We cannot see the symptoms of liberation being us not liberated, but accepting a guru knowing or believing that he's not perfect is useless. If he's perfect because he's born perfect, or if he's perfect because he's following strictly it is not our business

 

he's perfect and it is enough

 

for me this is the sense of prabhupada's teaching.. and his example..

 

he was perfect, why we now have to accept something less?

why we believe that krsna is no more sending pure devotees in our planet?

 

hare krishna... i quit