we have also come down from Vaikuntha

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

I heard in a lecture by Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada:

|BG 2. 6__How To Utilize Fighting Spirit__06aug73_LO|

 

His Divine Grace says "we have also come down from Vaikuntha",

 

so does this mean that we have never actually been in Goloka Vrindavana? /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Hey, there's scientific theory, right?

 

Yeah, "Vaikiuntha" includes the whole spiritual world.

 

Maybe some of us will spiritually advance while we're here.

 

Amazing concept. Uh?

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I mean, were we actually ever with Krishna, not Lord Vishnu with 4 handed form in Vaithuntha?

 

It interests me because we must have been pretty 'duh', to leave Krishna's company.

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Govindaram, your guess is probably better than mine.

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I am making the inquiry, basically because, i want to think i am Not so dumb, that i would have left the company of Krishna, so..you can tell i have a high regard for myself /images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

Ps. You need to be a little quick on the Edit' posts. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

 

 

 

[sinimat 0]

Hare Krishna!

 

I've actually thought about this too. I remember hearing that once we reach Krishna's abode, we will never want to leave. From this, I conclude then that we have never been with Krishna before, because why would we be here? Does that make sense? I would like some clarification on this if anyone knows the answer.

 

Hare Krishna!

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Yeah, I've wondered the same myself. Can't logically assertain why, except that I was envious - a very general acceptance.

 

You have to be able to 'choose' to give freely. You have to be able to 'choose something else' besides your 'natural obligation' I guess. WE MADE THE WRONG CHOICE!

 

In any case, even if we can't asserted the details… we still have hope for something better.

 

We have so much AWESOME information which deals with REALITY so much better than anything else. HARE KRSNA!

 

As far as the editing… the board does not always reflect what I EDIT AND POST … I swear it! …Stick a needle in my eye… !

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna

 

if there is a quote somewhere which says we fell-down from Goloka vrindavana, that would help, vaithuntha and goloka are 2 different places.

 

Yes, all we can do now is try and get back, still i want to know the above question, and sinnimat prabhu would also like to know /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

I've actually thought about this too. I remember hearing that once we reach Krishna's abode, we will never want to leave. From this, I conclude then that we have never been with Krishna before, because why would we be here? Does that make sense? I would like some clarification on this if anyone knows the answer.

 

 

In the Gita Krishna says, "attaining my abode" and "going to my abode" one never returns again to the material world. He does not say one cannot fall from one's original spiritual nature. After having experienced the material world and returning to Lord Krishna, one will never again fall to the material world. A child who burns his hand by touching fire will never again try to touch fire.

[ancient_paztriot 0]

JNdas, Hare Krsna. I appreciate many of your scholarly comments. I've certainly learned alot from you. Many thanks!

 

Uh, you brought up a point about circumstance.

 

Do you mean the living entity will NEVER CHOOSE TO RETURN to the material world? Or do you mean KRSNA SOMEHOW RESOLVES THE CHOICE of living entitites free will so that there is no longer an option?

 

(I was under the impression that love or any relationship is dynamic. And you can always change your position accordiing to your choices.)

[Govindaram 1]

 

"He does not say one cannot fall from one's original spiritual nature"

 

Grr, this free will is an obstacle in bhakti or what.

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Thanks Govindarma. That thought had escaped me cosidering this…

 

… "one never returns again to the material world."

 

I need some help.

 

There is duality here. But there is a higher answer. What is it?

[theist 1]

My mind can't wrap around this question. Prabhupada did wright that the jiva originates in the Brahman effulgence of the Lord. That's in the Sri Isopanisad.

 

As I see it the fall means we have fallen into a dreaming state. That doesn't necessarily mean that I, the soul, have even moved any more than someone sleeping on a bed"falls"asleep by leaving the bed and moving into a dream world. It is a particular energy that covers the self.

 

All too subtle for me.

[Openmind 0]

It would not be logical that someone being a gopi for example suddenly decides to come down for a little enjoyment of meat, sex, cigarettes, dope etc. That makes no sense. That would mean that there is something missing in the spiritual world, that the inhabitants there are in lack of bliss. I cannot believe that an associate of Lord Krishna would decide to make a journey in the world of suffering. The inhabitants of the spiritual abode, Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavan are pure souls who never fall down. Even the two gatekeepers, Jay and Vijaya fell down only because the Lord send them to assist Him in His pastimes. There is no mention in the whole Vedic literature of any jiva leaving the spiritual kingdom and falling down. There is no example for this apart from the story of Jay and Vijaya. The jiva originates in the Brahman effulgence, so it has a choice to decide between the two worlds, material and spiritual. The inhabitants of the spiritual world only come down with the purpose of preaching, never by the power of karma as we can see our Acharyas, who were not fallen conditioned souls but pure inhabitants of the spiritual world who decided to appear here for the sake of helping others.

 

Jndas mentioned the example of a child who, after burning his hand once never touches fire again. Just let us look around: people burn their hands day by day in the fire of sense gratification, but they never learn, next day they do the same, carvita carvananam, chewing the chewed. We can see people dying in hospitals going out for a cigarette even though they perfectly know it destroys them. So fallen souls never learn unless they surrender and receive diyva-jnana by the grace of a bona fide guru.

[theist 1]

then there is the thought of the non-existence of material time in the spirit world.

 

A person could be doing something and then experence the mood of wanting to be the enjoyer, dream themself into the material world for so many eons, and return to the spiritual world and be doing the same exact thing with no break. Like the material trip never took place. In which case it could be said the person never fell. It could also be said the person fell and came back.

 

Depends on the position of the person speaking.

 

 

[gHari 0]

Srila Prabhupada responds HERE.

[gHari 0]

It will seem like we've been there forever, like we'll be there forever. It will feel like home, ETERNAL HOME. So as Theist postulated, is that a fall or not? We blink and cannot see Krsna, then our consciousness falls into space-time for eons upon eons, but upon opening our eyes the eons seem merely like a teardrop in the ocean of eternity to the eternal jiva soul who lives in the omnipresent present.

 

It is time to reopen those eyes; time to come OM.

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

I remember Prabhupada saying some souls never fall; some are eternally perfect. Supposedly, they never make the mistake(s) we made.

 

I also heard that once the entity has returned to the spiritual world, uh we can remember our material sojourn to help us decide next time we consider misusing our free will.

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna

 

Ghari Prabhu, where did you get that Lecture notes from, whereabouts is it in the folio, nectar!

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

The article suggest we can never leave Krsna's-lila simply because that's all there is. It's not necessarily saying we have physical spiritual bodies elsewhere we are not aware of.

 

But I'm not discounting the possibility. It's certainly possible. I tend to think somewhat along those lines myself. Our experience of dreams certainly confirms this notion.

 

"… but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead."

 

So it remains a mystery. I guess that pretty much sums things up.

 

Maybe Prabhupada didn't want us to know so much about this. That would be consistent with the scriptures silence on these points too.

[gHari 0]

Search for "tal-fruit".

[Govindaram 1]

 

Thankyou..hare krishna!

 

Jaya Prabhupada!

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

No doubt, there is a very good reason not to deal with it.

 

Knowledge of other lives is a problem I guess. Maybe we're not to know our original fall for similar reasons.

 

(My editing is not working. I can make a spelling change twice and it still not reflect.)

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I devotee said to me about this thread, that what about Karma?..we don't know anything about our past karma, and most of us, don't even give-it it a secound thought (unless)..but anyways, this is like the same thing, we will just never know, and i know what you're all thinking, that i would probably ask Krishna when i meet Him, well i wouldn't what would be the point? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Same problem with empiricial science… this tracing cause and effect back endlessly.

 

You can do that if you want, but it's not really gonna bring us to truth. At some point, Socrates says, "You have to stop and make a stand" and say I accept this as self-evident truth.

 

It is the universal principles and laws we need to understand and co-operate with. Those are the same for everybody. Those we can assertain through the eyes of scripture or the pure devotee. That is the platform for common understanding and standards.

 

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

 

- Founding Fathers of America… Declaration of Independence