theist 1 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 What does it mean to *have* a guru? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 No thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 No thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 ... does your opinion matter? Are you interested enough to sign on the dotted line? I've got one for you. What's your alma mater? Who do I have to complain to in order to shut you up? Well I do, so listen up rookie ..... gHari CAITYA - 1975 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 1, 2003 have a guru? Prabhupada says we don't need a guru, because he says that sastra is as good as guru. I mean this is a good interpretation! Bravo Mariner! What about this old one? The paramapara is the disciplic succession of Sabdha brahma Madya lila 17.48-49 keha yadi tanra mukhe sune krsna-nama tanra mukhe ana sune tanra mukhe ana sabe 'krsna' 'hari' bali' nace, kande, hase paramparaya 'vaisnava' ha-ila sarva dese When someone heard the chanting of the holy name from the mouth of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and someone else heard this chanting from that second person, and someone again heard this chanting from the third person, everyone in all countries became a Vaisnava through such disciplic succession. Thus everyone chanted the holy name of Krsna and Hari, and they danced, cried and smiled . Purport (by SACB Svami Prabhupada) The transcendental power or potency of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is herein explained. First, the holy name is vibrated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When someone hears from Him directly, he is purified. When another person hears from that person, he also is purified. In this way the purification process is advanced among pure devotees. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and no one can claim His potency. Nonetheless, if one is a pure devotee , hundreds and thousands of men can be purified by his vibration. This is not for us. We have to follow: adau sraddha tatah sadhu- sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah ("In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Krsna consciousness."(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.4.15-16)] your useless neophyte Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 gHari /images/graemlins/grin.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 neophyte Poorly worded question I think. I was wondering more what people mean as individuals when they say "I have a guru", as opposed to a time when they didn't "have" a guru. In your words, what does it mean to you? Some people feel it means a guaruntee of some kind, like the Christians who think they are "saved". When I ask them what does that mean to them to be saved I get many different answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 1, 2003 I am only a neophyte, what is my opinion worth? The matter of fact i don't have a guru, because i am not a true devotee. I think guru has me. I didn't even want to get one, I thought, when i retire, i go to India, maybe Vrindavan or Navadvip, and look for an old one, maybe one babaji, that is very attached to his bhajana. Despite this thinking, I always "preached" that Rupa Gosvami says "go to guru and take dikSa" aknowledging my crippeled situation (the matter of fact my almost zero faith). That I was accepted, I must be grateful, because many changes took place in my life, and the most important are the way I chant, the number of rounds that automatically increase, the morning programm with many prayers, and the songs. And than siddhanta. He took me by the hand and said walk! Is not so easy. Like a small child, i have to walk myself, guru cannot walk for me. He is a trainer for champions, and I've just started to learn walking. I take a glipse to the advanced ones. The training is hard, but if you wanna make it, you must be serious. The trainer knows many tricks, how to make a champ out of you. Welcome in the camp! the useless neophyte Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 You are looking to a certain devotee as example and are molding your life around his instructions with an eye to internal transformation. I have alot of respect for people that can do that. I like hearing these things as they are inspiring, more so to me than just a bunch of quotes. Of couse the question is more valuable as an excercise in introspection lest we fall into the trap of claiming guru as a way to fit in to a certain group, kind of a social convention. The matter of fact i don't have a guru, because i am not a true devotee. I think guru has me. This is a very deep statement. Hare Krsna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AncientMariner 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 Man I must a struck a chord somewhere up in the office. No in all seriousness I am very glad that you have found a human representative of Krishna to guide you on your path to self realization. For me I don't trust humans, I like the book better. Admittedly that is probably my own failing so please ignore my faulty interpretations of the relationship between guru and disciple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AncientMariner 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 What we got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. Well its the way he wants it, well he gets it and I don't like it anymore than you fellows. LOL JUST KIDDING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AncientMariner 0 Report post Posted August 1, 2003 I got my mind right boss. LOL just kidding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 1, 2003 "neophite" means that you belong to a school (even if you are a newcomer).. and school means teacher /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 3, 2003 I am just trying to memorize the fifth verse from Sri UpadeSamRta, where Srila Rupa Gosvami speaks also about the one that is in the process of dikSa, which means, which complies with his statements pertaining the begining of the process of bhakti: guru padASraya and Sri guru dikSa Sikyadi. Verse Five Service Rendered by an Intermediate Devotee to the Three Kinds of VaiSNavas krsneti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta dikSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam SUSRuAayA bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya- NindAdi Sunya-hRdam Ipsita-saNga-labdhyA Anvaya Adriyeta one should respect; manas. within the mind; Tam that person (a neophyte devotee); yasya giri in whose speech; iti thus (appears); kRSNa one name of KRSNa; (one should offer respect) praNatibhiH by offering praNAma; ca also; bhajantam an intermediate devotee who, being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions; Isam Sri BhagavAn; cet if; asti he has; dikSA accepted initiation from a qualified guru; (and) labdhy. having obtained; Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself); SuSRuSayA with all types of service (such as offering daNDavat-praNAma, making relevant inquiry and rendering service); (one should respect) bhajana vijNam a self-realised, expert mah.-bhAgavata VaiSNava who performs bhajana of Sri RAdhA-KRSNa;s eightfold daily pastimes by rendering service mentally; ananyam who is an exclusive devotee of Sri KRSNa; anya nindAdi Sunya hRdam and whose heart, due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa, is free from faults such as the tendency to criticise others Translation One who takes kRSNa nAma just once by calling out O KRSNa! is a neophyte devotee ( kaniSTHa-adhikAri). One should consider him to be his family member and silently respect him. One who, fully understanding the principle of dikSA, has accepted initiation from a qualified guru and performs bhajana of BhagavAn in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions is an intermediate devotee ( madhyama-adhikAri). One should respect such a devotee who is endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion by offering praNAma unto him and so forth. One who is conversant with the science of bhajana as described in the Srimad-BhAga-vatam and other VaiSNava scriptures and who performs exclusive bhajana of .Sri KRSNa is a mahA-bhAgavata devotee. Due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa, the pure heart of such a devotee is free from faults such as the tendency to criticise others. He is expert in bhajana, meaning that he mentally renders service ( mAnasa-sevA) to Sri RAdhA-KRSNas pastimes which take place during the eight segments of the day ( aSTa-kAlya-lilA). Knowing him to be a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RadhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself, one should honour him by offering daNDavat-praNAma ( praNipAta), making relevant inquiry ( paripraSna) and rendering service( sevA) with great love. the neophyte Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 3, 2003 <<What does it mean to *have* a guru? >> What does it mean to go to school and college? even krishna went to guru. tad vidddi praNi paatena... jai sri krishna! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AncientMariner 0 Report post Posted August 4, 2003 I guess you should rename me "the neophyte" then as long as you are willing to give up the name. Based on what you just presented I have to admit you are right. Sorry for being such an annoyance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted August 4, 2003 What does it mean to go to school and college? even krishna went to guru. This says two things to me. One can join the institute of higher learning(college) and not even know who the particular instructors are and get a degree without forming a firm bound with any teacher. Just on the strength of realizing what is being taught. It also says, by using the exmple of Krsna and Sandipani Muni, that one should accept a particular person as guru. Which is it? Or could it be both? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 4, 2003 the 2nd is the one if there are pure teachers the school is pure if not, a school is only bricks and cement Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted August 4, 2003 Haribol, theist, your question is very good and clear, and I have a great answer to the query. I had only a couple of audiences with Srila Prabhupada, once with twenty devotees, another, there were only seven of us. In one of those sessions, the subject of "possessions" came up. Devotees were, by and large, committed to vows that meant ideas of "ownership" were transcended. Srila Prabhupada told us that there were only two valid possessions of a brahmacari, japa beads, and GURU. To have a guru means just that, that there is no other possession for a disciple. I "have" a guru, and this comprises all phases of personal relationship, all the way from awe and reverence, grovelling in fear, to intimacy of friendship and real love on upper levels of rasa. The reason for this exchange is also not one sided either. One decides to possess a guru because without such possession, there is no life. Like the stoiry of the vaisnava dunking the head of a rascal in the water, holding him there till he was almost drowned. The rascal gasped for air when his head was oout, and the Vaisnava replied, "when you desire Krsna as much as you desired that breath of air, then I will accept you as disciple". When a guru accepts a disciple, verifying the "possession", his job is not done, for he commits to a much greater degree to the disciple that perhaps the disciple will ever commit to the guru. But this is another topic, titled "the commitment of guru to disciple", which is hardly ever discussed. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted August 4, 2003 Great post Mahaksa das. It is just like our relation with krsna in that we possess guru when we allow ourselves to be possessd by him. That is the solidified connection to the parampara. This is why I feel it is so crucial to have the Lord in heart point you to you guru and not some lame formal system where your guru may just quit on you and hand you back over to the institution. Or to one where a GBC can intervene at any moment and cut the bound. What you are pointing to is a bound that simply cannot be cut by outside forces. One of love and respect. Haribol soul, ps hey why so silent lately? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted August 5, 2003 To The Max! Certainly the Max sisya is one of our greatest possessions. Stolen from us for so long, it now resurrects for the big second coming. Don't let him drown in humility. We need him more than ever. gHari Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stonehearted 0 Report post Posted August 5, 2003 mahak: To have a guru means just that, that there is no other possession for a disciple. I "have" a guru, and this comprises all phases of personal relationship, all the way from awe and reverence, grovelling in fear, to intimacy of friendship and real love on upper levels of rasa. I agree. "Having" a guru can mean something as straightforward as having a relationship with a guru. In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami gives for requirements for a disciple's advancement: guru-padasrayas tasmat krsna-diksadi-siksanam visrambhena guroh seva sadhu-vartmanuvartanam "[1] Accepting the shelter of the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master, [2] becoming initiated by the spiritual master and learning how to discharge devotional service from him, [3] obeying the orders of the spiritual master with faith and devotion, and [4] following in the footsteps of great acaryas [teachers] under the direction of the spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada usually gives that third requirement, visrambhena guroh seva, as serving with faith or reverence, but visrambha is generally defined as intimacy. So we should also serve the guru in intimacy and love, both of which are reciprocal. I have continued to wear my sacred thread not as a sign of any rank (i.e., I'm a brahmana) but as a sign of discipleship--I belong to, am under the control of, am dedicated to serving a bona fide spiritual master. M: When a guru accepts a disciple, verifying the "possession", his job is not done, for he commits to a much greater degree to the disciple that perhaps the disciple will ever commit to the guru. But this is another topic, titled "the commitment of guru to disciple", which is hardly ever discussed. B: Megadittoes from da Big Island on dat one, brah. Srila Prabhupada's example was clearly that the guru serves the disciple. What we see commonly practiced in ISKCON is something different. This needs to be discussed threadbare among devotees. I remember an ad in an old Back to Godhead whose headline was "Krishna consciousness means giving." I think it was a pitch for donations, but the headline was actually correct. Srila Prabhupada showed that being Krishna conscious means always giving. I've been a teacher since 1979, and my experience has consistently been that teaching (like parenting) means giving endlessly, often without tangible reward. The same is certainly true of accepting disciples. I also agree that we don't hear enough from Mahaksa. I know he's busy, but I also know we appreciate the fruit of his experience and introspection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
