uninitiated siksha gurus?

[theist 1]

Were you quoting from someone or offering your own English commentary?

[raga 0]

From Narayan Maharaj, obviously.

 

Are you "anadi"?

[yasodanandana 0]

i am sorry if i do not explain my ideas very well, but you are "speculating" too much on my thoughts and ideas

 

quote: "yes... initiation has a meaning if one follows, nor if he has done a simple "bureaucratic" affiliation"

 

it means that if i take initiation without follow, this initiation is simply signing a name on a list (iskcon, bvpurimaharaja, narayana maharaja, ritvik, paramadvaiti maharaja etc.)... and this was also in theme with the topic

 

admitting my "not perfect" english i have also to say that your fantasy is very active, maybe too much.. please prabhu do not use me to make exercises of fanaticism and sectarism.. you do not need to defend your "very personal" idea of IskCon by me

 

(but i can see that you are not too kind with others also, so i am in good company!!)

[Guest guest]

The simple vedic formula for seniority is given in the equation from the Rogue Veda:

 

<blockquote>S = (P + L - I*I - A*A*A) ** M</blockquote>

 

That is, seniority is calculated by taking the moments spent in devotional service in previous lifetimes (adjusted by this same formula), then adding the moments from this lifetime, subtracting the moments squared spent in institution politics consciousness, minus the moments cubed spent offending Vaishnavas, and then all of this is raised to the power of Sri Krsna's causeless mercy.

 

Clearly there must be something other than dates or we would regard Bhavananda as senior to Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

This post and the subsequent replies shows that there is so much politics exists within ISKON and do honestly you people think can show someone the path of spirituality.

[Bhaktavasya 0]

"Anyway, why would a senior vaisnava be demanding or even expecting respect from anyone in the first place? Other than his own students perhaps and that for their own good."

 

Theist makes a good point with the above quote. There have been so many instances during the history of ISKCON where long-time initiates and leaders have become extremely puffed up and reckless towards other devotees based on their 'seniority' in years spent within the institution.

 

On the other hand, many times an uninitiated person will be seen to be trying harder to make spiritual advancement and is very respectful to the devotees who have been practising Krishna Consciousness for many years.

 

Chintamani the prostitute wasn't initated but she is the spiritual master of Bilvamanga Thakhur because she encouraged him with her words to take full shelter of Krishna.

 

As for anyone (initiated or not) chastizing us, isn't that usually a test from Krishna? Maybe that person can see some flaw in our character that we can't see, or maybe that person is just 'blowing off steam' and it's still a test to see if we can be patient and detached or if we fall into the trap of becoming angry and lash back.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruptor 0]

<font color="blue">

I thought I'd stick in my two cents...

 

<font color="red">> Should persons who are uninitiated come foreward to give siksha in forums or other places?</font color>

 

If they were interested in knowing what they should and shouldn't be doing, imho they would be asking questions, not coming forward with taking a position of a guru to teach others.

 

<font color="red">> Sometimes we find uninitiated devotees chastising initiated devotees and speaking as though they are more learned or experienced in Krishna consciousness even though they have never seen the need for taking diksha.</font color>

 

Actually in my experience I'd ever only see uninitiated or just initiated neophytes chastising more humble vaisnavas. Real vaisnavas are known to possess all the brahminical qualities, therefore they are always glad to learn something new, even from a dog [i didn't wanna mention women to do not sound sexist, although it is a fact that women possess stronger minds than men but that their intelligence is naturally weaker, nevertheless intelligent people are always open to learn something from anyone be they more or less intelligent than them].

 

<font color="red">> Can one be guru if he himself has not been accepted by a guru of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya?</font color>

 

A guru means heavy, heavy with knowledge. Knowledge alone does not let one approach Krishna. Anyone can teach whatever they are expert in. What they teach is what matters.

 

<font color="red">> Should not such devotees attempt to get initiated before they come foreward to act as siksha gurus and chastise initiated devotees who actually performed service to a spiritual master in a tangible way?</font color>

 

Of course they should get initiated. Everyone should. Learning bhakti sastra under the guidance of a bona-fide spiritual master works, chanting the holy name works, performing one or a few of the forms of devotional service works... Chastising others doesn't work, especially chastising vaisnavas. Why are they wrong? They are trying to serving Krishna unlike the other 999... They have their gurus to chastise them if whatever they are doing is wrong.

 

Those were my two cents. Thanks for reading! :-) Have a hug. Hare Krishna!

 

Sean [That's right, i'm not initiated. I don't qualify yet, so feel free to discard my opinion]

 

PS: I think those who are into chastising need hugs. Next time you see them chastising someone, please give them a hug from me and say Hare Krishna. Maybe that will melt their hearts...</font color>

[Guest guest]

Let take this good counsel to heart.We need not commit or re-commit the same mistakes over and over again.Thank you. Haribol

[gHari 0]

<blockquote>[...] we have no qualifications to know who is advanced or not [...]</blockquote>

 

If a newbee cannot "know who is advanced or not", then how can they select and dedicate to a guru completely?

 

This seems an impossible paradox.

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Its true, because people today are not completely honest and we don't have some powerful aura that keeps away the bad guys and lets in the good guys. That just can't happen.

 

So, getting a true guru would be like getting a diamond for free.

 

 

[Guest guest]

From that book

Introduction by

 

His Divine Grace

Bhakti Raksaka

Srila Sridhara

Deva Goswami

 

Founder-Acarya of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math

 

 

To err is human. To err is inevitable for all, being not perfect. Still, no one wants to remain imperfect. There is an element within all that is animate that tends towards perfection. If it were not so, we would feel no want at all. Our tendency towards perfection is certainly very weak and limited; otherwise we could attain the goal at once. Our limited capacity and tendency for perfection makes room for the guide or guru.

 

The imperfect is not so if it is not in need of help, and that also from beyond itself. The perfect is not perfect if He cannot assert Himself or help others, and that too, of His own accord. So the guidance to perfection or Absolute Truth is necessarily a function of the absolute Himself, and the divine agent through whom this function manifests is Sri Guru or the divine guide.

 

For a seeker of the Absolute Truth, submission to the guru is unavoidable. A class of thinker believes, however, that when scientific research is possible, why cannot higher spiritual knowledge also be evolved from within? Such people are ignorant of the most essential nature of absolute Knowledge, that He alone is the Absolute Subject and all else including ourselves constitutionally stand only as an object to His omniscient vision. It is impossible for the eye to see the mind; it can have some connection with the mind only when the latter cares to mind it. In a similar way, our connection with absolute knowledge depends mainly on His sweet will. We must solely depend on His agent, or the spiritual master, through whom He likes to distribute Himself.

 

Popocatepetl

the fool of Her Majesty

[yasodanandana 0]

i remember many times gaura govinda maharaja saying that the only sistem to find a real guru is "cry before krsna"... of course we have to study scriptures the features of uttama, madyam, kanishta devotees, but culture and erudition (in an "intellectual/academic" sense) will not help us completely

 

 

[Guest guest]

religious and spiritual discussion is certainly essential but people who are in the stage of discussing these things on internet are certainly not someone who must be great guru or a sage who is renounced. So when you guys are living in this materialistic world, Dont you guys have no other job and how do you all find time in fighting among each other. Certainly krishna must be laughing at all of you or even angry for you are all wasting your precious time. Well.. thank god I learnt this in 2 days while visiting this forum and let me not waste anymore of my time before i start advising others.

[Guruvani 0]

I find the time after I come home from working a 1 to 9 shift at my job. Today is my day off, so I am loitering in the forums till I go out to take my kids swimming at the springs.

It does appear that some posters here (maybe one in particular) is loitering around this forum at all hours of the day and that does bring into question as to how he makes a living if he has the ability to loiter on the internet all day long 7 days a week.

 

I am a working class citizen. I do my 40 hours a week. I don't know how some of these people manage to linger in these forums all day long.

[Guruvani 0]

It seems to me that if a person is on the level of crying before Krishna he is already past initiation,so why would he be searching for a guru?

 

Most devotees in the movement didn't "find" a guru, rather the guru found them through his missionary activities. Prabhupada said that when you are sincere to find God that Krishna will send the guru to you. If Krishna does not send the guru to save you, then you will never find a guru by "shopping around" the different gurus on the guru market.

[yasodanandana 0]

i am an owner of a recording studio, i am in some "backup" days..... a computer is doing backups and copies, and i am, sometimes in internet with another.... so my working time is not wasted

 

stay if you get satisfaction by the association

[yasodanandana 0]

Guru Darsana

 

Gaura Govinda Swami: One thing is important: We don't' know who is a real, bona fide guru. Can you know? Can you measure? Can you see with your material vision? You can't see. You can't measure him. Krsna is adhoksaja. He cannot be measured by the defective material senses. Similarly, His true representative the bona fide guru, the dear devotee who is very intimate and very confidential, cannot be measured by your defective senses. You cannot see him with your material vision. You can only see the outward body of flesh, bones, marrow, blood, and urine. In the 11th Canto Krsna says that the guru acarya is as good as He Himself.

 

acarya-mam vijaniyan

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruh

 

One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way.

One should not envy him, thinking him to be an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods. (Bhag. 11.17.27)

 

In addition, in Guruvastaka (Verse 7) we chant:

saksad-dharitvena samastra-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

Every day you sing saksad-dhari, and Krsna says the same thing: acaryam mam vijnaniyan-"He is as good as Myself." Na martya-buddhyasuyeta-"Don't think of him as an ordinary mortal human being." Sarva-deva mayo guruh- "No, all the demigods are there in him."

 

This is guru tattva.

How can you see such a guru with your material vision? As you cannot see Krsna with material vision, you cannot see the guru with material vision. You will only see the outward thing, which is not guru. Only if the guru showers his mercy on you can you be endowed with the vision to see his true form. By the mercy of guru you can see guru, otherwise you cannot see.

This vision is only obtained by crying and crying and crying before Krsna: "Oh Krsna, I don't know who is your real representative who can deliver You to me cent percent. I want you cent percent, O Krsna." If you cry before Krsna then Krsna will make an arrangement. He is there in the heart as Paramatma. He will understand, "Now he's crying for Me, so I must help him." He will make an arrangement that you meet a bona fide guru, a genuine representative of Krsna. Otherwise it is not possible. This is the only process.

But in our case we try to measure everything. We measure the Lord. We measure the guru. We try to see the Lord with our vision, with our defective senses. Therefore our acaryas and sastras say that the guru is the seer, drasta, and you should put yourself in the position as the object to be seen, drsta. It is very difficult to understand this point because almost everyone thinks just in the reverse. You think you are the seer and the Lord or guru are drsta, the objects to be seen. No! It is the complete opposite. The Lord is the seer and the guru is the seer. You are not the seer. You are the object to be seen by guru or seen by the Lord. Do you understand? This is a very deep philosophy.

 

Cry For Guru

 

What I am saying is from the previous acaryas. Nothing is mine, not a single letter. I follow the path the acaryas have shown. I have done that in my life and therefore I got my guru. That is my experience. Following what our acaryas say, what sastra says, sadhu-sastra-guru-this is the process. But you have never followed it. I think you cannot understand it clearly. Try! It is a simple thing. You cry before Krsna, cry before Mahaprabhu, "Please help me, please help me, please help me!" Krsna is the heart and can understand, "Oh, now he is crying." He will help you. He will make arrangements that you can get a bona fide guru who is Krsna's true representative, a confidential, intimate associate if the Lord-and then your life will be successful. Don't be desperate. There is no question of despondency on this path. There is no pessimism here. It is all optimism. Mahaprabhu is so merciful-maha-vadanyaya avatara. Srila Kaviraja Goswami in Caitanya Caritamrta has used the word adbhuta, wonderful three times; adbhuta-karunya, adbhuta-vadanya, adbhuta-audara, wonderfully munificent, wonderfully merciful, wonderfully magnanimous. This is Sriman Mahaprabhu. Cry before Him. Cry before Krsna to shower His mercy on you. It is the only thing required. Don't try to measure Krsna or His representative the guru with your defective senses. You will only be cheated. You should have complete, unflinching faith in Mahaprabhu, Krsna and sadhu. There is no other way.

[Guruvani 0]

Are there any people that you know that make their money operating pirate studios in Italy that make illegal copies of copyrighted music and videos?

[Guest guest]

Tutte le Glorie a Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja!!!

 

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

The first problem is that this piece of text that you are posting here was written some time between 500 AD- 1700 AD.

 

Thats a problem, because people at that time were honest and nice and very sincere about their devotional service.

 

So , finding a guru was a piece of cake. But now, we don't really know who is who and what is what any more.

 

Every one is mysterious in their own ways. Today, the so-called honest people are the ones who just lie when they need to and don't lie when they don't have to.

 

People are so selfish and they all of them try to cheat for their own good.

 

Finding a self situated guru in this day and age is like going to Mars.

 

[Guest guest]

We can not see who is Guru.Sadhu,Vaisnava by our defective imperfect senses.If we depend on our material eyes we will be cheated.Whereas if we depend on the Lord to make the arrangments...It will be the Guru who will find the sisya.

It is the causeless mercy offully indendent Supreme Personality of Godhead and His Beloved Servitors.

god

[yasodanandana 0]

no.... i think that having internet and fast connections software piracy is no more a very effective way for making money

 

:-)

 

i have an official business and for me could be a too big risk to use pirated things

[yasodanandana 0]

"Finding a self situated guru in this day and age is like going to Mars. "

 

yes... it is so difficult that only krsna can find a guru for us

[yasodanandana 0]

ciao prabhu... harekrsna!!

[gHari 0]

Oh Srila Prabhupada, you have made it so difficult without you.