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Heterosexual & Homosexual Vaisnavas;Who Is Sinful? Who are we?

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I clearly stand against gal_a. I also stand against the practice of homosex. But from the post of guest I, like Babhru, did not get the sense that he was looking for an acceptance of homosex into Mahaprabhu's movement. Just the opposite actually.

 

Guest I really applaud your honesty in recognizing a block on your path and your willingness to overcome it. Honesty not just on this forum but within your own self. that stands as a good example for all of us no matter what our block might be.

 

Very instructive about your encounter with the "spiritual master." I am of a heterosexual mind but still had a similar experience once with an Iskcon "sannyasi" and "initiator".I had always thought he may have had a homosex background but had always found him knowledgable and somewhat inspiring and liked his gentle nature. That is until he wanted to start hugging me. Whoa!!! ...now I am out of there. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I don't dislike him even now but I certainly don't want to hear from him and avoid him when possible.

 

I like your idea of avoiding your past friend and think it wise. I once had a severe problem with ganja and other pyschoactive drugs like mushrooms and LSD. Way too much. I to this day cannot allow myself to be in the same room with ganja. I cannot resist it for long and once I smoke a little i feel i must smoke a lot and will not stop until it is all gone. I mean first thing in the morning till I fall asleep at night.

 

It was very hard to quit. But I had too as it was ruining my life and made real Krsna conscious practice impossible for me. I found the only way I could quit was to TOTALLY avoid anyone who themselves smoked it. Zero contact with that energy.

 

I feel that you would gain from a similar approach with this other person. Of course its not exactly the same because in your case there is another person involved and not just a drug. But you are fighting now for your life. Association is the key. Tolerate the urge and stick to straight Vaisnava association would be my advice.

 

Its best for your brothersoul as well as you don't want to implicate him in going down the wrong path either. You can help him by being a good example.

 

The tendancy is a temporary one and will pass in time.

 

Nice to hear you are chanting on your beads. Myself I get inspiration from playing a cassete or cd of Prabhupada chanting japa while I try to chant some on my beads. It really helps.

 

Good luck

Hare Krsna

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OK, look at his NAME---KRISHNA69!

 

We all know that 69 is a symbol for mutual-simultaneous oral sex between two people. My impression was that this name was meant to offend devotees and the Lord, though I am sure this derelict will try to make some other excuse for this extremely offensive and disgusting aparadha. I can't think of anyone besides some flaming homo that would be so rude, offensive and obnoxious as to call himself KRISHNA69!

 

Most homos are very hateful, sick and debased. I drove cab in California for a few years and met my share of them. It would take someone of that kind of mentality to combine the Lords name with 69. That is the work of a beast, a fiend, some hobgoblin in the guise of a human.

 

Read his post again more carefully. He says to go back to the temple where you were approached by a homo and "give him back nicely". Treat the homo that came on to you nicely. In other words show your approval and acceptance of homosexual devotees.

 

I think you peeps are a little naive and simplistic. Maybe I have been around the block too many times. I can smell a homo a mile away.

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At least I hope many people come here for spiritual uplifting and I'd say some of the things post here would be rigorously kicked out in other forums. I can't help asking myself whether certain postings are really made for discussion or whether the poster only seeks pleasure in upsetting other people. As for my humble self, I do not agree with ISKCON's rigid views on sexual morality either, but I think if one comes to a (more or less) ISKCON-related forum it doesn't take a lot of common sense to see that most of it's users are rather conservative and are likely to react negatively.

 

I do not appreciate censorship. I welcome if the moderators of this forum have the courage to allow the discussion of a topic as sensitive as this. I think that discussion is necessary and that censorship always should be the very last means.

 

If one really needs to discuss homosexual issues in every detail I think there are plenty of forums more suitable to that. Or even better, special newsgroups. In a newsgroup, info only gets to those who want to read it and the others are left alone. IMHO this would be the best solution for all.

 

*********************************

 

But as the topic of homosexuality has been brought up, there's two question's I'd like to bring up. First, is there any scriptural reference banning homosexual attitude? If one seeked to justify homophobia by the Bible, one might use this:

 

 

1 Corinthians 5

 

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[2]

 

1 Corinthians 6

 

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

12"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[4] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

 

Is there anything comparable in Hindu scriptures?

 

***********************

 

Second issue, I'd like to bring up again the topic I once had been flamed for so much. The relation between homophobia and patriarchic attitude. I think nobody would disagree that ISKCON doctrine is rasther patriarchic or "protective towards women", call it as you like. However, I can't get rid of the feeling that ISKCON unconsciously or unintendedly or whatoever plays with the topic. Left aside the topic "spiritual view", which I do not want to enter in here, many of the male figures look feminized to a great extent. I cannot evaluate whether this is the Indian concept of beauty because I just don't know. Therefore I'd only like to assess it without any further comment. As for most images, this is a matter of subjective perception, but there's one in which the border of ambiguity has clearly been transgressed. Would you please look at this:

 

 

 

 

 

How can you even get a hold of a person LIKE THIS? The gesture is totally ineffective to stop somebody from running but that's not the real problem. In a grip like this chances are fairly high that you stripe somebody the way it shouldn't be.

 

Posted Image

http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/art/wheel.jpg

 

Compare this:

Posted Image

http://ikar.secna.ru/russian/grafx/OLD/Bud&Krsn/illustra/

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Ok, first of all what is GALVA.

 

Second of all, what did he say that was so offensive. By his name, its clear that he likes krishna.

 

He is an Indian, I could tell by his name, well, he usually writes it as "shyam".

 

Shyam is a well known Indian name, which means Krishna. May be he just liked the name Krishna.

 

Most people, and even my self put my birth year after their names. I could have I_love_krishna_86 or something like that. Whats wrong with that?

 

May be he was born in 69, who knows?. May be you are terribly accusing some individual who has no relation what so ever to what you are accusing him off.

 

Please stop saying such things with out any sort of real knowledge about the subject. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

And also, in the picture, Arjuna is not trying to get a hold of krishna, but he is trying to beg him to stop attacking Bhisma with that big wheel. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

I do agree with the fact that most of the pictures that we see are feminized, but I thought that it is a way of showing beauty in the North Indian Art. Because, we see the same thing all over India. Where Gods and Goddesses are all looking like girls.

Most Gods are shown with long curly hair, with bindis, and with earings and all the fashionable things that are considered feminine. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I cant beleive that you people who talk so much about GITA and Krishna are not able to stop thinking anything nonsense about sex and the usual nonsense thought prevailing in the society. I was born in the year 1969 and my name is shyam. I am a pure devotee of Shree Krishna which I dont have to explain to all you kind of people who talk about Krishna but with no values in mind. My krishna knows me better than anyone else. I was born and brought up in India in an orthodox shastry family, a pure brahmachari in heart and soul and I am the last person to disgrace anyone. By commenting so dirty on my id name without knowing anything, shows that you people just read GITA and talk about Krishna for the sake of it but not with any real understandings.

Hare Krishna why do you put me amidst such kind of foolish people

Regards

Shyam

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By the way, by mentioning that "go to the ISKON temple and give that person nicely" i meant sarcastically as i did not want to write any harsh words in this forum unlike most of the people. Didn't you read the following sentences " give him nicely with strong words" This does not mean, be nice and gentle to that person, but make that person realise that what he is talking in the name of spirituality and misbehaving should be brought to light, so that he does not misbehave with others. Also why somone has to stop going to temple for an idiot's misbehaviour. THats why i mentioned dont stop going to that temple.

From your posting its very clear, that you are a person with no understandings of anything and just blindly come to conclusion without knowing anything about anyone and just pass some comments baselessly. You dont even know who I am and there is no personal interaction between you and me and how can you just pass on such comments towards someone without knowing that person.

Shree Krishna will teach you a lesson for your arrogance certainly.

Regards

Shyam

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'I am a pure devotee of Shree Krishna'

 

Hare Krishna

 

Krishna69 prabhuji, I have read in Srila Prabhupada books that a pure devotee would never praise himself, to say he is a pure devotee, i.e six Goswami's of Vrindavan didn't ever consider themselves great devotee's.

 

But I think maybe you said what you did out of anger, due to other people's ignorance,

 

Ps If you are a pure devotee, then please ask Lord Krishna to bestow His mercy upon me and guide me to a bona-fide spiritual master /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I know the Indian customs, because my parents are 100% Indians.

 

Funny thing is , Indian women don't hug and Indian men hug.

 

They hug themselves calling brothers, it is a little wierd to see grown men hugging.

 

Anyway, The fact is , Indians don't have the "Homosexuals " in their country. Don't know why... they just don't. Or may be they do, but if they act Homosexually they are just put in Mental hospitals or something... no idea.

 

Anyway, so I guess hugging among men in Indian culture is not something of a sexual nature, it is a way of showing brotherly love.

 

Women never hug. No body hugs except when some "American" friends come to our house. No one hugs!.

 

And Indian men never hug Indian women. Indian boys also never talk to Indian girls, its wierd. Like my cousin who came from India, never talks!. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Actually, even though the krishna conscious philosophy took its birth in India, The Modern Indians are very body conscious than any one else. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

its actually funny in a way.

 

So this may serve as a brief guide to Indian Culture for Theist and Guruvani. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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Shyam, you needn't feel that you need to qualify yourself to anyone. You don't require anyone's approval to approach Prabhupada or Krsna.

 

Concerning your feeling so alone. In one sense this is good realization for alone we are. Most of what passes for friendship is really just a form of distraction that maya offers to us to keep us thinking that life in the material sphere is comfortable and that everything is OK. Being alone can help you shed that misconception. That may not be comfortable though, I admit, for its the soul's nature to relate to others. Better no association than bad association. But that is not enough, only positive association with Krsna conscious friends can properly fill that void. So we try to make friends with devotees. I am saying devotees not just those that kind of believe or whatever. Some will be on our own level while others should be more advanced. Then when we become stronger we will be able to associate with others a little behind us on the path without falling back ourselves. But we must be careful not to spend too much time there prematurely. Eventually we will naturally draw people up to our level and not fall to theirs but we can't fake that. We must be very cautius.

 

I understand there may be so many stumbling blocks to this. Living with parents, or far from bhaktas etc. then its best to associate in anyway we can while avoiding bad association.

 

When Krsna sees our humble attempt He will arrange our future circumstances in a way favorable to reaching Him. No doubt.

 

By allowing ourselves to drift so far from Krsna in the first place we have created a most awkward situation for ourselves. We are now more or less retracing our steps. This will be clumsy for awhile but if we follow Prabhupada's shining siksa we will find the true path back illuminated fully, guarunteeing success.

 

Hare Krsna

 

theist52

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Mr. Govindaramji

I stressed to say that I am a pure devotee of Shree Krishna to imply that I dont disgrace anyone since that person who accused me has also mentioned that I am disgracing hara-krishna people. I dont disgrace anyone implies that I respect everyone irrespective of whether they beleive in Krishna HIMSELF or not and this is what my Lord says.

For your question on finding a spiritual master, read GITA concentrating your heart and soul into it and live as how it is mentioned. When I can live such a life, being in this materialistic world anyone can live. When i say, I am living as Krishna says in GITA, I am not a sanyasi or a person who has given up materialistic life, but I dont hurt anyone with my words and action, I do my best by extending anything sincerely, as a good friend to my friends or even to any stranger which certainly one will realise it in course of time when they move with me and as a son to my parents and as a good employee to my boss. I am also keeping myself pure physically and mentally, to be a good husband If I get married. This is what I have understood by reading GITA and hence practicing it as far as possible in day today life. I fell HIS presence with me all the time after I started living HIS words. Certainly Krishna HIMSELF will come into you dream when you put your heart and soul in your prayers and HE is the only spiritual master I have ever known. But you have to work hard to see HIM through your mind.

 

Regards

Shyam

 

 

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Hare Krishna

 

thank you for your reply, the only advice that's sticks in my head and will for all eternity is this:-

 

4 regulative principles, 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra, vow before Tulasi Devi.. as said by Srila Prabhupada..Ki Jay!

 

i will do the above, i have been trying for sooo long now, now my friend I have the determination to do it.Hare Krishna

 

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Hi..Well..I keep chanting HIS name all through the day consciously while doing any work even while writing this to you and also in sleep, which my people told me that once they observed that I was telling krishna krishna while sleeping. I dont know if this is the reason, I was protected several times from many big dangerous situations. By the way chanting HIS name also implies that one has to live through the life with purity of mind and only then HE stays with us. Its a wrong conception that what ever sin we do, HE will forgive us if we chant HIS name. GITA does not say like that. I have written about this and explained in detail in my other postings. If you are interested you can read.

Regards

Shyam

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I am just curious to know if this forum is mostly written or posted mainly by american brought ups who has not lived through the Indian culture and traditions, who have recently converted to vaishnavism or come into Krishna conscious thoughts. I am not offending anyone but would seriously like to know, because from the way people misinterpret other's words, commenting on someone without even knowing anything, from the way a person has questioned about how arjuna is grabbing the legs of Krishna, femininity in Krishna's face, I guess I am a wrong person to write anything here being brought up in INdia, and lived through the Indian culture and traditions. I have been observing in US ever since I came here as a student that most people's mind think first about sexual approach and hence their interpretations too, which I noticed in this forum too from guruvani's comment and your comment on my id that I am fooling all you guys when you all dont even know me. We Indians are brought up in different cultural and traditional ways and we are brought up along with the thoughts of KRishna/GOD ever since we know ourselves, we were brought up with thoughts of friendship and brotherhood towards others. Just like that we dont misinterpret anything and we never bother to see things from sexual angle like you guys, which I also faced in this forum with some nonsense misinterpretation. Why they are not able to discriminate a normal friendliness from sexual attraction and why such corruption in thoughts. Its very sad to know that people's mind are so much corrupted here on sex whether you all agree with me or not. I really thought this forum is something useful in spiritual discussion but ultimately it proves to be nothing since i guess its being written by people (it not all atleast some of you) who does not know much actually about Krishna, but read few books or texts and simply talking like a parrot whatever the book says without analysing properly what the author tries to bring out in essence and without understanding or living through what GITA says. Anyway I dont blame you guys, since you dont even know India, her culture and traditioins, friendliness among people and brotherhood nature which can be understood only if you live there.

I am sorry to write like this, but I have to stand atleast now to express my views after facing nonsense comments from people.

If this is run and written by american broughts ups probably yes I am a wrong person to be here.

 

Regards

Shyam

 

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By the way, the picture of arjuna grabbing krishna is wonderfully and naturally depicted the way it should be. When you want to stop someone your mind does not think of anything about where and how you grab the person. Arjuna's mind is clearly depicted in the first picture that he is begging Krishna to stop by running behind Krishna and grabbing his foot. Whats wrong with the idea of the picture. Its in our analysis and understanding.

Regarding the femininity of Krishna's face, none can ever predict in a figure how beautiful Krishna could have been from all the descriptions on Krishna. While its true that most artistes portray the beauty in efiminated way, there are many picutres of krisna in temples of India in which HE is really masculine. Probably you would not have seen and I dont have them to post here.

regards

Shyam

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Personally I like to hear from people of other cultures, especially India.

 

Yes in the west we are bombarded with sexual images. 69 does have that meaning in the West. I mentioned I hadn't thought of it that way before.

 

You should also consider that people come on to forums to stir up controversy all the time. Not just here but on all forums.

 

Lastly I offered you two long posts filled with encouragement and my thoughts on your situation neither of which you chose to acknowledge in anyway.

 

Think about it.

 

Hare Krsna

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Hey theist, Shyam is a little worked up, and it appears there may be some justification. Shoot, you and Guess get more pee'ed off with me all the time!

 

BTW, I only found one post from you on this thread after Shyam's explanation; although it's addressed to him, the reply link and the substance seem more to be addressed to Govindaram. That may be why Shyam didn't make the connection (I thought the "Shyam" opening that post was an error myself).

 

Let's see if Guruvani is grown-up enough, after 50 rough years and three kids, to acknowledge his error.

 

Babhru47

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No there are two. One came in response to his post as an unregistered unsigned guest.

 

I have been taking it that they are the same person.I have been logged off numerous times without knowing it and some posts came up as guest. I just initially figured it had happened to someone else.

 

Anyway I never accused anyone of anything. I won't spend anymore time trying to figure this out.

 

I apolgize to everyone for offenses both conscious and unconscious. What can I do? I am a scorpion by nature and to sting is my nature. I am also what you find when you take up residence in the material world. If you don't like it leave and go back to Godhead. Ya'll get outta here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

 

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My ears are still ringing. Sorry to freak you out like that. If I missed one of your posts, please forgive me. I didn't say that you accused Shyam of anything; he, however, did seem to think you bought into Guruvani's accusation when you said he may have tricked some of us. That's all I was referring to.

 

Look, if you're trying to get rid of me, it's gonna take more than scare tactics. I've been around a while, apparently, and I seem to have ended up in a realtively nice place--rural Hawaii. Why would I want to leave? /images/graemlins/wink.gif (I remember that, during the '70s, whenever devotees came from the Mainland, they would opine that we could never go back go Godhead becuase you have to suffer to do so, and there's no suffering in Hawaii. I would question them on both points: Where is it written that we need to suffer to go to Goloka? and Who says there's no suffering here? I've lived here many years, and I don't remember a day when I didn't suffer either physically or emotionally. And you'd think that if there had been such a day, I would remember it.)

 

Babhru47

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Guest guest

I am not facing any situation as how you are referring to in your post. I just gave my opinion as a reply to the guest poster who posted his situation and you guys started talking nonsense about my id without even knowing anything.

ANyway I dont care anymore and it seems worthless coming into this forum for any kinds of discussion as i really dont find any spiritually elevated people.

 

May krishna help you all to find out whom He actually is. I am so glad and happy that Shree Krishna made me to be born and brought up in India.

Goodbye to all you guys. Fight among yourselves happily.

 

Regards

Shyam

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This previous post in the name of guest was mine and I did not want to register as I am removing my id and leaving this group. but just writing this because i dont want you guy's dirty mind to think that this guest and the previous guest who posted his strange situation are the same.

Regards

Shyam

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Hare Krishna

 

Please don't leave because of other people' post I remember you from years back, then when I 'renounced /images/graemlins/smile.gif my computer, come on it's not that bad, plus your's views are very much good as you are an aspiring devotee of Lord Sri Krishna, just take some time off or not prabhuji...haribol!

 

ps i think Guruvani owes you an apologie big time...

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If you are truly a spiritually elevated person, which you are ofcourse. Then, why do you need to be upset of something that is of such a base nature as this?

 

As we all know, the true wisdom, as in Bhagavath gita, lies in staying a friend and gentle , even if the person is in a hostile situation.

 

It was truly funny to see guruvani go to such an extent of saying something so improper , but please don't take this so harshly upon yourself.

 

Guruvani's accusations are out of ignorance, ignorance of the worldly knowledge.

For example, In australia, people call each other "mates" if the guy is like your friend. that does not mean mate = sexual mate. If a person does not know such a thing , then he would accuse him of being improper. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

That doesn't mean, the australian should all of a sudden get mad and never say mate again.

________

 

Sorry, but Guruvani has not made you mad (angry) in this situation. It is your ego. Your ego has been hurt, so you have said "No" to this forum. Your ego has veiled over the true perfection in you.

 

Truly, you are a great devottee, so leave this delusion.

 

It was a simple misunderstanding, even krishna had to deal with misunderstandings, so if the maya of this world did not stop for krishna, how can it stop for you or me, or guruvani /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

 

And please administrator, delete the entire thread of posts, the whole notion of Homosexuality is just a temporary delusion, this entire thread of posts is useless. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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