To drink milk or not to drink milk?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

To drink milk or not to drink milk?

by Syamasundara dasa

 

Recently our morning temple discussions moved to the Vegan arguments of not using the milk from the cow. The usual answers came back as we have seen in this discussion about Karma free milk drinking because it is offered to Krishna and thus no reaction for drinking it. Accepting that milk offered with devotion is karma free what is the position of milk that is not quite so offered. Is it enough that one has heard that Krishna accepts and likes milk products without actually offering them with love and devotion. Are we doing all that we can to indeed sanctify the milk we are using.

 

There is another point against drinking milk which we would not support and that is that somehow drinking milk is wrong because it comes from an animal. There is a notion that cows were somehow domesticated some thousands of years ago and that man is now unjustifiably exploiting them unnaturally. That there were only wild cows roaming around and that they were captured and trained with the consequence that their calves milk was stolen by man. This notion is clearly of a Darwinian slant and has atheism at its heart. There is no God in control and man and cows were surprisingly thrown together haphazardly. As followers of the Vedic tradition and as vaisnavas we do not hold such ideas. We have been informed that the world was created perfect and complete and thus from this cows and man have been given a symbiotic God given relationship. Using cows milk is not a consequence of stealing the calves milk but is an arrangement of Krishna whereby the cow gives more milk than the cow needs.

 

A third point of consideration before we set ourselves on any path of non milk drinking to avoid implication in the slaughter. Over the years a visitor to India, could gradually watch a sinister development. Decades ago the fields were primarily cultivated by oxen and it was extremely common to find ox wagons, ploughs and other animal draft apparatus outside a villagers home. Food was produced and then transported by ox. The home was dependant on the ox. The food production was supporting the ox and thus the cows were being protected.

 

At some point someone thought that a tractor and a truck powered by petrol would be of benefit to the food production, and so the ox dependence diminished. Gradually over the decades one started seeing that the ox carts and ploughs were changed for tractors, trailers and tractor implements. Homes were decorated with petrol dependant machinery. Along with this development one could also note that the oxen disappeared, they weren't just idle alongside the tractors but one could hardly find them. A visitor now to India doesn't see that many ox carts and ox ploughs in relation with a few years back.

 

Food is now produced and transported by tractors fed by petrol. In this environment the oxen has been slaughtered, and with the slaughter of oxen goes any semblance of economic possibility of milk production. In other words the real cause for the slaughter of cows and oxen is the tractor and the truck. If one truly wants to halt animal slaughter then one should boycott food produced by tractors and transported by trucks. To say let us not drink milk produced from slaughter is not complete, if one wants to be actually helpful in having an ethos were milk is available slaughter free then one should only eat food produced by oxen. Srila Prabhupada warned that if you do not work the oxen you will think about killing them.

 

Just some thougts for deliberation

 

Syamasundara Dasa

Farm Manager

Bhaktivedanta Manor

syamasundara@pamho.net

[theist 1]

Nice to know bhaktas are discussing this. He did seem to go right over the slaughter and suffering issue though.

 

For more information on how much the calves and cows have to suffer to supply you with that warm cup of banana milk before bed visit: http://www.milksucks.com/index2.html

 

Afterall Krsna's cup is really quite small. Maybe He should get it and we can wait until it can be procured non-violently. Just a thought.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

I find the following quite relevant:

 

 

Accepting that milk offered with devotion is karma free what is the position of milk that is not quite so offered. Is it enough that one has heard that Krishna accepts and likes milk products without actually offering them with love and devotion.

 

 

How much of the milk is actually being offered with love and devotion to the Lord? And how much is just conveniently drunk or eaten.

[theist 1]

point. Are we using this offering as a formality to soothe our conscience while still having our milk?

 

I can honestly say I have never genuinely offered anything to Krsna with love and I expect I am still eating karmicly infected veggies and such.

 

That's just me. But with all the negativity and suffering of the cows how can we continue to support the animal slaughter trade in this way?

 

Male calves torn from their mothers at birth, put in crates two feet wide until they are slaughtered for veal. that's clearly demonic.

 

People are still free to make these decisions on a personal basis. Perhaps some temples will consider accomodating vegans more for the time being.

[gHari 0]

<table border=0 cellpadding="3" cellspacing="3" width="100%"><td width="35%" align="center" valign ="center"><img src=http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/ganesh.jpg>

</td><td valign ="center" width="65%">A few years ago I stopped offering milk to Krsna after testing a little high for cholesterol (too much milk, cream cheese and yogurt). This fast had lasted six months, when I learned that Krsna had become very upset. A few months back He had begun stealing milk from Indian temples in His Ganesha form. It was so embarrassing.</td></table>

 

We should remember who is at the center of all that prasadam.

 

gHari

[theist 1]

Veganism does protect the Cow

by Harry Bowler

Posted February 18, 2003

After living across the road from a non-devotee dairy for a couple of years, I saw first hand how non-devotees treat cows, it was hellish and very disturbing to anyone who has conscience given to them by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The babies, male and female, were rounded up and sent to the meatworks when they were only a few weeks old. The cows continued to produce milk for their babies, and be exploited for this milk before becoming pregnant and going through the same process again. The cows would cry out in distress for their babies for many days after they were taken.

 

In a country like Australia, it is not possible to turn these cows out on to the streets to look after themselves. In India they have a totally different approach to cows, and it may be acceptable to use the milk, but in the West the average household doesn't have a cow in the back yard, and if they did, within a few years there would be a dozen cows in the backyard, ie: the cow, her calf, the calfs calf, and so on. Because cows have to keep having a calf to produce milk.

 

I would liken it to eating meat. The cow has to suffer and its baby has to die. That's the harsh reality of drinking milk in the western world. We have to live in the present moment and make decisions based on the circumstances that are presented before us.The truth is drinking milk obtained from these cows is blood milk. There was one argument that veganism does not protect the cow, we could take that a little further and say neither does vegetarianism. It is an ethical and spiritual choice, if Krishna says love the cows, then we can't be involved in the perpetuation of the calf killing system. Anyway, doesn't Krishna say a leaf, fruit, flower, or water? Veganism may not stop the killing of the calves, but you are opting out of the cycle and that surely has to be the most spiritual choice.

 

One thing I have noticed is that non-devotees are becoming increasingly more intelligent at knowing what Hare Krishnas believe in. The above arguments are constantly raised by vegan non-devotees and the meat eaters. Remember how hard it was to move out of the comfort zone and give up meat? Thats why there are all those meat substitutes. Let's try to go the extra step and give up blood milk.

 

without predjudice

Harry Bowler

 

 

 

 

[theist 1]

Devotees will often counter the onjections to drinking milk in the context of today's factory farming culture by quoting something like this:

 

From Prabhupada's purport to SB8.6.12:

 

"In this verse, the cultivation of bhakti-yoga is compared to many material activities. By friction one can get fire from wood, by digging the earth one can get food grains and water, and by agitating the milk bag of the cow one can get nectarean milk. Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one immortal, but it can increase the duration of one&#8217;s life. In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live very long. Although in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk. This is a sign of Kali-yuga. In Kali-yuga, instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His instructions of Bhagavad-gétä, advises go-rakñya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one&#8217;s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential to give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their milk bags."

 

I am curious to know what substances are in milk that add to life span and those that add to brain development. If there are specific compounds can they be acquired elsewhere until we can receive milk from truly protected cows.

 

As it is now I don't see where devotees can claim cow protection as part of their lifestyle. The simple undeneiable fact is if you drink milk,from non-devotee farms, then you slaughter cows.

 

How do we get out of this perplexing situation?

[Guest guest]

 

 

It is impossible to do anything perfectly in the Kali-yuga so just continue to execute devotional service to the best of your ability and if enough people continue to do this slowly the demonic face of the world will transform. Right now there are so many demons in the world that even the devotees are essentially under the control of demons so we have to be subtle and try to trick them into becoming devotees.

[stonehearted 0]

theist: I am curious to know what substances are in milk that add to life span and those that add to brain development. If there are specific compounds can they be acquired elsewhere until we can receive milk from truly protected cows.

 

As it is now I don't see where devotees can claim cow protection as part of their lifestyle. The simple undeneiable fact is if you drink milk,from non-devotee farms, then you slaughter cows.

 

How do we get out of this perplexing situation?

 

Babhru: I devotee freind in California whodoes protect cows toldme that research shows that the benefits Ayurveda attributes to milk can be obtained best (perhaps only) from the milk of zebus, not the European cows. So that kind of complicates things.

 

There should be no argument among devotees on this, or from devotees against nondevotee vegans. I think that, in light of our spectacular failure to protect cows (not to mention children, older folks, and women--but that's another story), we should encourage all to follow their conscience. If someone cannot accommodate participation in the blood-milk industry, we should leave them alone, unless we are willing to take the responsibility for protecting cows ourselves.

[theist 1]

Babhru,

 

That is interesting about the cow variations. I would'nt know a zebu from a European. I have noticed some have black spots and some brown while others have none at all. I take it European cows are the most prominent in the West?

 

Sounds like they have isolated something for you friend to say that. Like in fish certain oils have been identified that are good for the brain. As well as DMAE and we can get these without eatting some stinking fish.

 

Your statement that this shouldn't become a divisive issue amongst bhaktas is well taken. I can't remember the number of times I have been called a demon because I can't digest cows milk. Then just last year in Vrndavan I was called a "traitor" because I adhere to a vegan diet. I have also seen some really angry and mean spirited vegans go after devotees. One was all over Prthu some years back as he spoke at the SF ratha yatra, a real mean young women calling him fat and a cow killer ect.

 

As I vegan I have found it best policy not to make waves at the temple on these issues. If someone offers me a maha-milksweet from the Lord's plate I accept with gratitude. So we can be very strict but not fanatical to the point of offending the Lord or his devotees.

[stonehearted 0]

theist: I would'nt know a zebu from a European. I have noticed some have black spots and some brown while others have none at all. I take it European cows are the most prominent in the West?

 

Zebus are the Indian cows with the lop ears and the hump, like we see in pictures of Krishna. They are quite beautiful, and their milk is unbelievably delicious and rich. When I lived in San Diego, I bought milk from Sadananda, who raises only zebus and miniature zebus. The European cows are the guernseys, holsteins, jerseys, etc. Thier milk is different. Sadananda gave me an article explaining the differences between zebus' milk and that of other cows, but I've apparently misplaced it in my move.

 

My dughter was hassled just the other day by a devotee friend because she's vegan. She was really miffed! And, yes, there are fanatical vegans who can't appreciate cow protection at all.

 

Ain't Kali fun?

[livingentity 0]

How big do the miniature Zebus get? Is their milk the same as the full size? Also, is there any way to contact your friend in San Diego? I would like to learn more about these cows and their care. I have five acres and have considered cow protection on a small scale - one or two perhaps. But I would need to learn what kind of care they require before I decide if I could do it here.

[paul108 0]

If I were a cow, I would want my milk to go to devotees to offer to Krishna, even if it contributed to my eventual slaughter.

 

I also get milked by (vi)karmi bosses, but I am relieved that the fruits of my labor go to supporting devotees. My employer probably won't slaughter me, but sometimes it seems like that might be better than the work.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist 1]

I have heard that argument Paul. And I'm sure krsna can keep track off which cows contributed to the milk He drank, even though it goes into huge vats during processing.

 

But we are told to protect cows. If you are drinking milk produced from the factory farms in the West you are engaging in cow slaughter. There is no way around that. If you consider that its worth it because the milk is first ceremoniously offered to Krsna I won't argue because that is your choice. Who knows you might be right. Each person will have to decide I guess.

 

I'm not persuaded myself. I don't see how Krsna could be pleased by this arrangement.

 

Hare Krsna

[atma 0]

how difficult is becoming for me to give up milk products. I gave up the milk with cereal in the morning but every where I look I see all the cheese, yoghurt, sweets, etc that I'm so used to eat. To give up meat was so easy, one day to the next, but this no-milk diet is taking my willpower to the maximun. My friends are not helping either, one told me I'm becoming "boring", other offers me every 2 seconds something derived from milk. Today I had in from of me this milk pudding with vermicelli and nuts with a gulabjamun in top and I had to preach to myself a lot not to eat it, everybody else was praising it a lot. Little later another guy came with freshly made cheese sweets and he kept offering them to me. I thought they were torturing me on purpose.

 

I think I'll go back to eat just some kitchrie and fruits, simple and nutritious like I did a few months back. I'll feel better in every sense.

[theist 1]

It is very hard. You don't notice it until you try to stop. As a kid i craved milk and drank tons of it. It was the source of many health problems but i didn't know that then.

 

Even a couple days ago I ewas in the store and got a strong desire for dates and cream cheese. I barely made it.

 

Maybe put a picture of a calve standing in a two foot crate waiting to made into veal onto the door of your frig. That thought always puts it back into perspective for me.

 

Its not worth it really, but dairy is everywhere, in everything it seems.

 

And friends are sometimes the worst. Many years back when I announced I was going to stop smoking pot(again) it was remarkable how many people starting offering me joints. Not to draw too much of a connection other then friends sometimes try to sabotage us for some reason.

 

maybe we need an CMA, cows milk anonymous

 

Good luck atma