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Just read a few books about Goddess worship. I thought about our path of serving Radha and Krishna together. We are so lucky. Often we remind each other that "Lakshmi cannot be worshiped alone", but we must also remember that Vishnu is not worshiped alone. God and Goddess are always together.

 

These books I mentioned offer a re-invented religion. The original is at least partially lost.(Even as such they are in my opinion far superior to Middle Eastern desert religions) But we are so fortunate to be part of a line that has been alive and kicking since time immemorial. Thank Goddess and thank God for that!

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ZrI Nrsimha BhagavAn ki jaya! I can attest to this.

We just finished performing HarinAm-sankIrtan at Timessquare.

Subhadra-devI has so kindly arranged both free & low-cost internet access 100 meters from where we chant, chant, chant...

So just in case u can't can't can't...

trick your foolish mind something like this:

Dear Mental Mindo,

Don'tcha Fret! don'tcha Worry!

We can go out to Timessquare, see the Lullaby Lights of Broadway, chant for a few minutes, make some show of devotion, then go over to that Easy Internet Cafe & choose from 800 screens with which to connect to vaiSNavas worldwide within seconds.

Think your mind might fall for it?

Keep your antaranga intention's secret.

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Yes I agree.Vaisnavism is so far beyond the hodge podge of Hinduism.Leave the little gods behind.So much confusion comes in its name.

 

And what Vaisnava understanding can exceed Mahaprabhu's?

 

Very fortunate indeed.

 

----------

PURPORT to Adi-lila 10.11

 

Srila Narottama däsa Thäkura has said, anya-deväçraya näi, tomäre kahinu bhäi, ei bhakti parama-käraëa: if one wants to become a pure, staunch devotee, one should not take shelter of any of the demigods or -goddesses. Foolish Mäyävädis say that worshiping demigods is as good as worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but that is not a fact. This philosophy misleads people to atheism. One who has no idea what God actually is thinks that any form he imagines or any rascal he accepts can be God. This acceptance of cheap gods or incarnations of God is actually atheism. It is to be concluded, therefore, that those who worship demigods or self-proclaimed incarnations of God are all atheists. They have lost their knowledge, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gétä (7.20): kämais tais tair håta-jïänäù prapadyante ’nya-devatäù. “Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods.” Unfortunately, those who do not cultivate Krsna consciousness and do not properly understand the Vedic knowledge accept any rascal to be an incarnation of God, and they are of the opinion that one can become an incarnation simply by worshiping a demigod. This philosophical hodge-podge exists under the name of the Hindu religion, but the Krsna consciousness movement does not approve of it. Indeed, we strongly condemn it. Such worship of demigods and so-called incarnations of God should never be confused with the pure Krsna consciousness movement.

 

 

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Actually, the books I read are not Hindu, but Wiccan/ Gaianism. Some Wiccans are like modern Hindus: quite hodegepodge. Some are like Mayavadis: "Goddess manifests Herself in many forms, but is actually a Power". And many Wiccans are more like Vaishnavas: they know there is Supreme Lord and Supreme Lady who may appear in many forms, and there are also Devas (yes, they actually use that term!), faeries, etc. who are divine yet not Divine.

 

What I am grateful about is that we have an access to the tradition that has never been lost. We still have disciplic succession. We have our books. we have ancient temples where worship is still conducted. It is very wonderful.

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The Wiccans believe in a Supreme Lord and a Supreme Lady?That is interesting.I have never read anything on them yet I have been carrying this image of them as some new age witch movement or something.

 

Good to get free of a prejudice.One down, a million to go.It does seem nature abhors a vacuum.If the truth does not reside there for sure a misconception will fill the void.

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Who are Wiccans ? How did they get this conception ?

 

I guess Vedanta was meant for modern times as much as for the past. With a lot of feminism going around, what is better than a Supreme Goddess ?

 

There is one poem by alwar where he describes the Lord as

 

Not a Masculine. Not Feminine. Nor Neuter.

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Wiccans call themselves Pagans, ie. they follow the pre-Christian Europian religion which to me appears to be very close to Hinduism/ Vedic religion, except that their pantheon has different names (Diana, Brigit, Pan, etc.) And yes, they pray to Supreme Lord and Lady. They call themselves witches, and cast spells and all that... I've seen: it doesn't look too different from our fire yajnas. Yajnas are also kind of "magical". Wiccans also offer foodstuff to their Deities. Some of them are vegetarians, too. Not all, though :-(

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The Wiccan religion is a bit of a made up religion as far as I can tell. Nothing particularly wrong with it. But many are trying to tap into the old European pre-Christian earth religions. They tend to be more form than substance, as I don't believe any real scripture exists from those times. I could be wrong on this though. So they sort of make up druid-like rituals, of coming out at full-moon, belief in faeries etc...

 

Having said that it does appear to be relatively popular among the younger generation. TV programs like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Xena Warrior Princess, Sabrina the Teenage Witch etc.... have made it a bit of a pop-culture fad. Go to the book store and you will see lots of Wiccan books targeted to 13-16 year old (mostly) girls.

 

I think we as Vaisnavas have missed a number of cultural movements that could have worked in our favor. This whole environmentalism, nature worship, Goddess worship has a lot of appeal.

 

We see many religions now jumping on the environmental bandwagon. Its funny because in my view Vaisnavism is one of the few that can legitimately claim to be an environmental religion. Devotees worship the Tulasi plant, the rivers (Ganga, Yamuna), we believe in a Mother Goddess earth (Bhumi), we worship mountains or stones (Himalayas, silas) etc.... But I don't think we have ever had a focused message to present Vaisnavism as an environmental religion. This is just connected to my other thread where I was speaking of the need to have a clearly defined, focused message, that is consistently presented. Without that, no matter how beautiful our religion may be, no one will hear it because our message will be drowned out by all sorts of side messages.

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Yes! This is exactly my point! I have got tremendously good response from these Wiccan teenagers, High Priestesses, Pagans and what-not by presenting Krishna Consciousness to them in the language that they understand.

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Wiccans are basically modern day Celts.

The pre christain religions in europe; The Norse/Germanic,Celtic,and other minor tribal faiths were descended from the Aryan traders.

Both the Germanic/norse and Celtic languages are belonging to the Sanskrit family of languages.

Also their religions, along with the Greek and Roman,are somewhat similar to the Vedic

religion.

For instance the Greek gods live on Mt.Olympus and eat ambrosia to be immortal.

The vedic Gods live on Mt.Meru and eat Amrita to be immortal.

 

The ancient Indus valley civilization was a vasttrading empire,with no doubt merchants living in europe,bringing their religion and language to the pre-celtic,pre-norse tribal people.

Crete,an island near Greece,and believed by anthropologists to be the source of Greek culture,is a fascinating possibility for a Vedic crossroads.

The Cretian language is undeciphered,but their art is similar to Indian art.

And their plumbing system is similar to the advanced plumbing of the Indus people.

The Goddess worship is most likely descended from the Aryan people of the Indus,whose art points at Goddess worship being prominent.

 

 

 

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I was speaking to some wiccans a while back and asking them about their Supreme God and Goddess. From what I could make out they are talking about Siva and Parvati. When I mentioned unalloyed devotion in complete surrender unto that divine couple they baulked at the idea saying that the Supreme God and Goddess don't want us to serve them. They summized that we are just like they are and that they want us to be happy in a similar way that they are happy themselves. I think again that impersonalism is the great contaminator of all religion. No other tradition reveals the Personalities of the divine couple as Vaisnavism does.

 

 

------------------

shab.

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Mithra was part of the pre zoroastar persian religion.

The persian religion at that time was almost identical to the vedic religion,the language was almost identical to sanskrit also.

This was due to the Hindu Kush mountains.

The vedic religion and language were practiced in persia with very minor differences to the Indian version.

When zoroastar came(when is debated,there is no viable source for accurate info on him), he changed the persian vedic religion,making changes in a variety of ways.

He changed the story of the struggle between the devas and asuras in the vedic version,which can be interpreted allegorically to conotate a struggle between right and wrong in our selves.

He changed that story to a battle between the personified force of evil against a personified force of goodness,battling each other for the control of earth and mens souls.

As time went on this religion spread as the persian empire spread.

Later still after the Roman empire came to dominate, the soldiers who were from many lands, took to the worship of Mithra ,who was originally the solar diety,akin to surya.

 

Mithraism became the most popular cult for the Roman soldiers and they spread it wherever they went,which was almost everywhere in the western world.

This in turn influenced christain theology,when Constantine was trying to create a state religion to end the bickering among the various christain sects of his time,he consolodated various other belief systems into the fold in order to appease everyone,and make christianity accessible to all.This included the concept of satan,the personified evil force,and december 25th which was Mithras birthday celebration and incorporated to be Christmas.

Also the pagan demigods were incorporated as arch angels.

 

Another thing when you said the wiccans described that we are like the gods and should enjoy like them,they are not wrong.

Bhakti is a process of purification and enhancement of knowledge,ultimatelly the inhabitants of the highest realm do not worship Krsna,they live with him and enjoy with him and like him,so the wiccans are right in that respect.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 06-06-2002).]

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Originally posted by shiva:

Another thing when you said the wiccans described that we are like the gods and should enjoy like them,they are not wrong.

Bhakti is a process of purification and enhancement of knowledge,ultimatelly the inhabitants of the highest realm do not worship Krsna,they live with him and enjoy with him and like him,so the wiccans are right in that respect.

I don't know that I agree with that. But my point was that they didn't like the idea of service to God, not as a means for enlightenment nor as the ultimate goal of enlightenment. The wiccans idea of enjoying like God is not what we mean by vraja lila. Their idea is material, with material enjoyment as the object and goal - this is simply ignorance. As far as I know they have no knowledge of the ultimate realm so I can't see how they could be in anyway 'right' about its nature. When you say that the wiccans are right about the fact that vrajavasis enjoy with Krishna and enjoy like Krishna I would say that they really don't know what they are talking about and it is simply a coincidence that what they are saying resembles a very deep esoteric truth about which they have no knowledge. I have heard that spiritual truths have reflections in the mode of passion, would anyone like to comment on that?

 

------------------

shab.

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Dear List,

I grew up in a rather fundamentalist Christian household, but had my own set of beliefs that I clung to from early childhood, and encountered neo-paganism as a teenager. This was in the years before Wicca became a fad movement, complete with effort-free kits for spells and fluffy books on how to ensnare a boyfriend by burning a candle. I have read reasonably extensively on the subject, and even considered myself Wiccan for a period of about two years. However, I combined these beliefs with Christianity. I am now investigating Hinduism after a personal vision, having never believed in Hindu anything before now.

 

In any case, a core belief of most Wicca is that although there are many gods and goddesses, they are all facets of one God and one Goddess. Some say that this duality is itself an aspect of a greater, unknowable Force.

 

I know more about this than probably anyone on this current topic right now, and would be happy to answer any questions you might have. Fire away!

 

Astron

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Hare Krishna Astron! (And Merry Meet, or whatever)

 

To change the subject just slightly: perhaps you know something about sacred cows in Celtic/Pagan society? I mean Goddesses appearing in the form of cows, patronesses of cows, etc. I'm doing some sort of research on the subject. I've dug out some info (as you can see from another post of mine), but any facts are more than welcome. There are a few names that have cow connections: Aine(?), Boann, Bubona, Damona and Dil. Also, I am interested in stories of "Otherwordly Cows"" (white ones with red ears) - ie. Surabhis, as we call them.

 

It is a mistake to think that cows were sacred only in India. Cows and milk were very important in many old cultures, particularly in the cults of Goddess. Often, cow was symbolic of fertility, abundance and Earth - and not just in India, but in Egypt and many other places, too. Nowadays milk comes in the bottle or the carton all year round, and we have no idea of the work and joy that people experienced when milk was finally available after calving time. Prosperity and perhaps the very survival of a family largely depended on the successful production of butter and cream.

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Other then India,the only other place where cows are revered today is Africa.

 

Many tribes value cows and cow protection above all else,and a mans worth is dependent on the number of cows he has.

 

They do not eat the cows,though some tribes drink cow blood letting some blood bleed from the cow,then they mix it with milk and drink it.

 

This practice is dying out though.

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I just saw a few days ago in the news that one African tribe donated a cow in honor of the World Trade Center victims. I’d be curious as to how they revere the cow. The blood drinking part I hope is only some tribes. Any similarities to Vedic culture?

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yes just a few drink the blood,though it seems the cows do not mind to much from the documentry I saw.

Many different tribes venerate the cow in Africa,their lifestyles vary wildly.

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