Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

[raga 0]

Jagat: You can find the Sanskrit text and references there. (I think.)

Not the full sanskrit.

 

Here are the references:

 

[For the first passage of Jiva: Bhakti Sandarbha, Anuccheda 284/1-2]

 

<blockquote>nanu bhagavan-nAmAtmakA eva mantrAH | tatra vizeSeNa namaH-zabdAdy-alaMkRtAH zrIbhagavatA zrImad-RSibhiz cAhita-zakti-vizeSAH zrIbhagavatA samam Atma-sambandha-vizeSa-pratipAdakAz ca | tatra kevalAni zrIbhagavan-nAmAny api nirapekSANy eva parama-puruSArtha-phala-paryanta-dAna-samarthAni | tato mantreSu nAmato 'py adhika-sAmarthye labdhe kathaM dIkSAdy-apekSA | ucyate | yadyapi svarUpato nAsti tathApi prAyaH svabhAvato dehAdi-sambandhena kadartha-zIlAnAM vikSipta-cittAnAM janAnAM tat-tat-saMkocIkaraNAya zrImad-RSi-prabhRtibhir atrArcana-mArge kvacit kvacit kAcit kAcin maryAdA sthApitAsti | tatas tad-ullaGghane zAstraM prAyazcittam udbhAvayati | </blockquote>

 

[For the second passage of Jiva: Bhakti Sandarbha, Anuccheda 283/17-20]

<blockquote>yadyapi zrI-bhAgavata-mate paJcarAtrAdivad arcana-mArgasyAvazyakatvaM nAsti tad vinApi zaraNApatty-AdInAm ekatareNApi puruSArtha-siddher abhihitatvAt, tathApi zrI-nAradAdi-vartmAnusaradbhiH zrI-bhagavatA saha sambandha-vizeSaM dIkSA-vidhAnena zrI-guru-caraNa-sampAditaM cikIrSadbhiH kRtAyAM dIkSAyAm arcanam avazyaM kriyetaiva |

 

divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam |

tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH ||

ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca |

gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH || [HBV 2.9-10] ity AgamAt |

 

divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca | </blockquote>

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-09-2002).]

[theist 1]

Is mantra-diksa to be prescribed for everyone, or should it be restricted to those who demonstrate the ability to maintain themselves solidly in the mode of goodness?

 

Whereas everyone can benefit from the Name no matter what level they start from,I'm not sure if the same can be true for mantra-diksa.Is their any detrimental effects that can come by irregular or improper practice of mantra diksa?Or by taking a vow and then stopping altogether?

[raga 0]

Originally posted by theist:

Is mantra-diksa to be prescribed for everyone, or should it be restricted to those who demonstrate the ability to maintain themselves solidly in the mode of goodness?

 

Whereas everyone can benefit from the Name no matter what level they start from,I'm not sure if the same can be true for mantra-diksa.Is their any detrimental effects that can come by irregular or improper practice of mantra diksa?Or by taking a vow and then stopping altogether?

It depends on your definition of being "solidly in the mode of goodness". If you mean an ability to meditate on the diksa-mantras on a regular, daily basis, then the answer is yes, it is meant for them, and not for those who do not take it seriously.

 

As far as the detrimental effects of neglecting the practice of once-given diksa-mantras, I think we can justly equate it with the neglect of worshiping an installed Arca Vigraha (Deity Form).

 

When the guru gives the initiate the diksa-mantras, he "installs" the mantras (you can't pick them up from books) and gives them for you as a means of worshiping the Mantra Devata (Deity of the Mantra), aiming at the darsana of the Mantra Devata's svarupa and the realization of our specific realization with Him & Her.

 

Harinama anyone may chant as he likes, but if the guru instructs us to chant a particular fixed daily quantity, it is also harmful to neglect this, since it constitutes the neglect of the guru's advice (guror avajna), which is one of the offences in worshiping the Holy Name.<font color=#fefefe>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-09-2002).]

[theist 1]

"..he installs the mantras.."

 

Thank you raga, that illustration really brought it home for me.

 

I seem to remember a letter were Srila A.C.Prabhupad was considering stopping giving that diksa mantra out, at least so profusly.I haven't read it recently so I may not have that correct.

[raga 0]

Originally posted by theist:

"..he installs the mantras.."

 

Thank you raga, that illustration really brought it home for me.

 

I seem to remember a letter were Srila A.C.Prabhupad was considering stopping giving that diksa mantra out, at least so profusly.I haven't read it recently so I may not have that correct.

Here you go:

 

<blockquote>"Initiation should be given as a future hope, but we should be careful about the second initiation. As recommended by the president or GBC they should only do so when they are quite confident of a man. Otherwise, he should not be recommended. If you follow this principle it will be successful. Every day I am getting request for second initiation, but I do not know. The responsibility goes to the presidents who pick them. Unless they are thoroughly convinced second initiation should not be given. In the beginning we may be a little lenient. But if someone falls down after being initiated he should not be credited with second initiation."

 

============ REF. Letter to: Rupanuga -- Tirupati 28 April, 1974

 

"You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad."

 

============ REF. Letter to: Sudama -- Rome 26 May, 1974</blockquote>

 

I found the second quote very much to the point from Swami Maharaja in regards to the brahmana issue. If a class of brahmanas is created from among those who are not born brahmanas, then they really have to be more than up to standard; otherwise, as he says, "If we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad." A provoker for all Western brahmanas out there -- be up to standard with sadachar. I know from my experience that there are many "brahmanas" who don't even know the meaning of the word "sadachara" what to say of observing proper rules of cleanliness etc.

[Jagat 1]

I would just like to compliment Raga on the high quality of his posts. This is not to minimize the value of other posters, but Dear Theistji, anyone like you who reads this thread will learn quite a bit about Gaudiya Vaishnava theories of initiation. The discussion has in general been of a very high quality with few digressions into the nether regions. Congratulations to all!

 

Someone posted a part of our exchange (about exclusion and inclusion) on Istagosthi, to which I added the following brief comment:

 

Initiation means sect. It means separating yourself. It means defining yourself. You cannot be all things to everyone. You have to be something. When you take initiation, you are taking a stand. You are committing to a sambandha.

 

[theist 1]

Yeah, those be the one's.

 

Sadachara? Pure regulative actions(duties)?

 

Needed.A comprehensive glossary of common sanskrit and Bengali terms as they are used in GV.In one book.I can guaruntee sales of at least one copy.

[raga 0]

Originally posted by theist:

Yeah, those be the one's.

 

Sadachara? Pure regulative actions(duties)?

 

Needed.A comprehensive glossary of common sanskrit and Bengali terms as they are used in GV.In one book.I can guaruntee sales of at least one copy.

Sat Achara -- True Behavior.

 

Proper cleanliness. Proper behavior among different classes of Vaishnavas and people in general.

 

Understanding that which is to be offered (amaniya), that which is offered (prasadi), and that which is contaminated (cyuti). Relating with everything accordingly.

 

If you touch something with something that was offered (prasadi), you have to clean the other thing before it can touch anything to be offered to the Lord (amaniya).

 

A long story with all of its details which may seem overly ritualistic to someone. But that is the behavior of a brahmana. samo damah tapah saucam. In fact, it is meant for all Vaishnavas, whether brahmanas, in other varnas, or outcastes like myself.

 

[Rati 0]

Getting back to my above post, all of those bureacratic layers in the large institution interfere with any productive relationship between spiritual master and disciple. From the above quote, we can see that Srila Prabhupada had to rely on the temple presidents to bring him qualified candidates. Under that situation, the guru is not examining the candidate for dIkSA, but the elder godbrothers are doing that job. That is one very tricky house of cards, when you think about it. Perhaps that whole scenario could be a root cause of many problems over the years. Don't really know, just theorizing.

 

[theist 1]

Originally posted by Jagat:

I would just like to compliment Raga on the high quality of his posts. This is not to minimize the value of other posters, but Dear Theistji, anyone like you who reads this thread will learn quite a bit about Gaudiya Vaishnava theories of initiation. The discussion has in general been of a very high quality with few digressions into the nether regions. Congratulations to all!

 

Yes I feel I am learning alot here.It is a special talent to take high concepts that are from a different time and culture and make them understandable to people in general.It is about being able to properly critique the one you are speaking to and this is especially difficult on a public forum.

 

My appreciation to raga and others whose patience I must surely try.

Initiation means sect. It means separating yourself. It means defining yourself. You cannot be all things to everyone. You have to be something. When you take initiation, you are taking a stand. You are committing to a sambandha.

 

I agree with this but also see it this way:

 

Separating and defining yourself, both exernally in conduct and internally in thinking feeling and willing,according to the prescriptions laid down by a bona fide acarya is the quintessence of initiation.

 

 

 

[raga 0]

Originally posted by Jagat:

What an astute reading of my post, Shivaji. Here is my latest instruction: "Don't go jumping off any cliffs, now."

 

See, Jagat is a genuine vartma-pradarsaka-guru. The guru who illuminates the path. "Don't go jumping off any cliffs, now." What an universal depth of instruction.

 

Shiva, even I am seeing the cosmic principle of guruness in Jagat although I am quite foolish and an outcaste even. I think you should also accept him in your heart as a bona fide comma-pradarsaka-guru.

[theist 1]

Originally posted by Rati:

Getting back to my above post, all of those bureacratic layers in the large institution interfere with any productive relationship between spiritual master and disciple. From the above quote, we can see that Srila Prabhupada had to rely on the temple presidents to bring him qualified candidates. Under that situation, the guru is not examining the candidate for dIkSA, but the elder godbrothers are doing that job. That is one very tricky house of cards, when you think about it. Perhaps that whole scenario could be a root cause of many problems over the years. Don't really know, just theorizing.

Yes Rati,just imagine Prabhupada's situation.Unprecedented really.Krsna was using him in such a magnanimous way.Actually initiating the world through him.

 

Problems arose but I think in the course of history they will be shown to be small when compared to the successes.But then i guess that is up to how well his disciples, students and other vaisnava's build on that foundation.

 

 

[Jagat 1]

Jai Radhe!!

 

I just reread this thread from top to bottom. I already made a comment complimenting Raga, and I want to repeat it. He has done a good job of summarizing the siddhanta and his posts are clean and nice to read.

 

Shivaji, you are no dummy and I would like to apologize if I treated you disparagingly at times. You make many good points, and as is usual in these cases, our differences are not absolute.

 

However, I think that you would do well to read more carefully what other people say, especially the texts quoted, and become familiar with them. You cited Sridhar Maharaj in one place, but that was the only citation you made.

 

As Raga pointed out, in discussions of this sort, Srila Prabhupada taught us to make reference to Shastra.

 

I also liked Audarya-lila's post. The conciliatory, upbeat tone of Tripurari Maharaj and his followers is a very positive sign for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the West. Bhaktavasya's post was short, but incisive. Theist played a great role as a submissive inquirer. Such a rare creature in these forums! It certainly helps to mellow the tone.

 

To all others, Shashi, Sha, JNDas, my dandavats to you. Please forgive any offenses.

 

Ys, Jagat

[Jagat 1]

When the Harinama-chintamani I am currently working on comes out at Mandala Media, it will have a lengthy glossary at the end, something like the excerpt I posted on the Siddha Pranali thread.

 

Raga is also working on typesetting the Manjari Svarupa Nirupana, which his param gurudeva Kunja Bihari Dasji compiled. This book also will have a fairly comprehensive glossary at the end. Of course, neither of these will contain absolutely everything, but I hope that you will keep an eye out for them when they are published.

 

Yours, Jagat

[Bhaktavasya 0]

Originally posted by sha:

Dear Bhaktavasyadd,

 

Have all 'initiated' desciples truly felt that way 30 yrs ago? Or is it a recent discovery from the teachings of saints?

 

Which 'gopi' is 'officially' married to Krishna in a "public ceremony"?

Marriage is an institution designed for the mundane society.

In my humble opinion, no such 'ritual formality' is necessary for the seeking spirit soul. Our bond with Him is eternal and do not require formalities.<font color="fefefe">

 

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-09-2002).]

I can't say what other initiated disciples felt like 30 years ago because I'm not Paramatma. I never thought of myself as a gopi or a queen of Dwarka; if anything I pined to be a cowherd boy when I 'got back to Godhead'. Marriage of the soul to God meant to me spiritual union, bhakti yoga. Very simple way of thinking, not complex at all.

 

 

[theist 1]

Rati said;

To say the mantra initiation is not essential is totally ludicrous, for without the mahA-mantra, where is the movement?

I admit experiencing a bit of confusion over the use of the words mantra, initiation, diksa etc. while trying to follow this topic.

 

Does mantra diksa refer to gaytri/ brahmana initiation?

 

Is the Holy Name dependent on formal initiation?

 

Is gayatri initiation necessary for the development of full blown of love of Godhead or is the Name alone sufficent?

 

When reading the words of Sri Caitanya in Cc Madhya 15.107-111 it all seems so clear.But when reading the quotes from the gosvamis offered in the purports I seem to see contradictions to those very clear simple instructions of Mahaprabhu.

 

Please show me what I am missing here.

 

theist

 

 

[raga 0]

Originally posted by theist:

I admit experiencing a bit of confusion over the use of the words mantra, initiation, diksa etc. while trying to follow this topic.

 

Does mantra diksa refer to gaytri/ brahmana initiation?

 

Is the Holy Name dependent on formal initiation?

 

Is gayatri initiation necessary for the development of full blown of love of Godhead or is the Name alone sufficent?

 

When reading the words of Sri Caitanya in Cc Madhya 15.107-111 it all seems so clear.But when reading the quotes from the gosvamis offered in the purports I seem to see contradictions to those very clear simple instructions of Mahaprabhu.

 

Please show me what I am missing here.

 

theist

 

 

Particularly verse 108. Here is the verse:

 

dIkSA-purazcaryA-vidhi apekSA nA kare

jihvA-sparze A-caNDAla sabAre uddhAre

 

"Not depending on purificatory regulations preceding diksa, by touching the tongue, it [Holy Name] delivers everyone, even the lowest of men."

 

Indeed, it is related by Haridas Thakur in the Caitanya Caritamrta how even the reflection of the Holy Name (namAbhAsa) delivers a person. The difference between the chanting of namabhasa and suddha-nama is a feeling of special relationship, visesa sambandha, with Bhagavan.

 

This is where the relevance of receiving diksa and the diksa-mantras comes in. To eventually come to the platform of suddha-nama, the diksa-mantras are given to facilitate the development of a specific relationship with the mantra-devata.

 

The Holy Name does not depend on anything. Sometimes we do. Many items on the path of devotional service, such as receiving diksa, are very helpful for us, and it is a rare person who can do without diksa. I would not recommend taking a path different from that of the acaryas.

 

<font color=#CCCCCC>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-09-2002).]

[abhi_the_great 0]

It was nice reading these posts...whew.

 

My conclusion: both the mental diksha as well as the ceremonial/formal diksha are equally important. If not, why SP shd establish such a procedure in ISKCON, why BSSP shd establish the ritual, why Gauranga mahaprabhu shd set the example. Slightly more important than the ritual is certainly the mood of the disciple/devotee. If my mood is sincere, then why shd I not accept diksha? Why shd I not accept the help of a sincere soul? Why shd I be so egoistic to think, that I don't need a guru, Krishna will reveal himself to me. I personally do not think that the attitude is really Vaishnavic. Its also tending to ritwik.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Why shd I not accept the help of a sincere soul? Why shd I be so egoistic to think, that I don't need a guru, Krishna will reveal himself to me.

Certainly a guru is necessary, but the question is whether one needs to undergo a ritual, and if that ritual makes one superior to those who have not undergone the ritual.

 

No one is suggesting one does not need a guru, and that Krishna will personally come to guide us; but rather what is more important (and hence the actual substance of initiation), the surrender to the spiritual master and the planting the seed of transcendental knoweldge in the heart of the shishya, or the external ritual of whispering a mantra in the ear of the disciple (giving him a new name, a deity to worship, etc.).

 

The pancha-samskaras of diksha are for purification and regulation. But they are not the only way to attain purification. Divinity can flow directly to anyone through anyone by any method. That flow of divinity from one devotee to another is the guru-shishya relationship. It does not depend on any external ritual, though some external rituals are purifying and regulating, and therefore beneficial to most.

 

This thread more or less began with the conception that someone is not initiated, therefore he is inferior to me and unqualified to speak, because I am initiated (five, six, maybe a dozen times). It is a wrong conception and just a product of false ego.

 

Then some were advised that it is better to go out and take initiation from anyone, just so you can prove that you are serious (otherwise you aren't serious). What a ridiculous conclusion. When the sat-guru comes, the disciple will know, and he will take initiation. Maybe this life, maybe the next; maybe through a ritualistic process, maybe not. The idea that everyone should be pushed to take initiation, so that they can prove their status is a terrible thing.

 

I'm sure a number of the participants in this discussion had been pushed into taking 3, 4 or maybe even more initiations from different "gurus" all supported by the same arguments (if your serious, you must take a ritual initiation). Maybe having done it themselves they feel the need to perpetuate the same myth. Many sects seem to have this pattern.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-10-2002).]

[Audarya lila 0]

I think much is lost in semantic arguments. The jist of what was said, in my opinion, is that one who is serious will certainly beg for Krsna to come to him/her in the form of Sri Guru and that person should, at the time this pray is answered, take formal and substantial inititation. I don't think anyone was suggesting that one go out and pick a devotee for status sake and take initiation in order to belong to a club. The sastra is clear on the matter and that has been presented conclusively in this thread.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was asked why everyone doesn't get a spiritual master. He answered very simply and directly that for one who is sincere it is sure that he will get.

 

Disciple means dicipline and service. We approach Krsna through serving his servants. That is the very heart of Gaudiya theology. Another very instructive thing that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said in this regard is that one should pray with all his/her heart for a proper guide and that if one continues to find that there is none they should go on praying for mercy. At some point one will have to conclude that the problem is with oneself and not with any lack of bona fide vaishnavas who are worthy of taking shelter of. Krsna is unlimited, so if after a long period we still find that we think no one is qualified, the conclusion is that the deficiency is in ourselves not in Krsna or his devotees.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Siddartha Gautama, "the Buddha", appeared on earth in order to end the excesses of the ritualistic state of sanantana dharma.

Srila Prabhupada used to denounce the "smarta brahmana" class,who were interested only in the rituals proscribed by the sastra.

Rituals serve a purpose,they are not to be served by us,they in fact should serve us.

As far as needing a particular type of initiation,from a particular type of Guru,in order to ascend to the highest level,.. that is a personal choice.

From my experience, trying to ascend to the highest level,disqualifies you from that level.

The highest level is given,not taken.

The various ritualistic initiations and practices that are proscribed for those who are desiring to attain the highest level,are meant for the purification of that desire,aiming to transform the desire for attainment of position,into the desire to give of yourself,out of affection, in whatever way is required.

At that point,when the desire is no longer, "how can I get into heaven",and only "how can I please God,here and now,leaving the future in God's hands",

Then you are qualified for the highest level,and in fact have attained it.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-10-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Just saw this elsewhere and thought it was relevant:

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja (Gaudiya Math) in Sri Guru and His Grace:

 

“We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajan, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The (gayatri) mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conception. The (gayatri) mantra comes to help us only so far.”

 

[Rati 0]

Shiva:

Aspiring for the highest level in our tradition means a goal of achieving kRSNa-prema, not some royal status or the level of an Indra ruling over heaven. So, there is really no blotch on one's character, such as pride (as you have suggested), by harboring such a desire. Yes, our understanding is that attainment of such a goal is an exalted state. It is also our understanding that one is trying to realize genuine humility at the same time. You seem to tend to get overly concerned with certain details, rather than absorbing the essence of the teachings and putting them into practical application. You would do well to take the advice that others here have so kindly offered to you: Finding authority in the recognized sources of sAdhu and zAstra.

 

Please do not take any of this the wrong way - those people were just providing constructive criticism. We all feel you are sincere and on the right track, just that some guidance would be beneficial (we have all been there and saw the need for sat-saGga along the way). We know Jijaji is beyond help and is trying to reach pharmacy-loka (just joking), but there is some hope for you, as long as you can begin and maintain a regimen of daily practice.

 

The one who obtains the most benefit is the one who takes the opportunity to ask questions rather than simply express one's own ideas. Otherwise, they do not gain any knowledge from others.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-10-2002).]

[theist 1]

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

I think much is lost in semantic arguments. The jist of what was said, in my opinion, is that one who is serious will certainly beg for Krsna to come to him/her in the form of Sri Guru and that person should, at the time this pray is answered, take formal and substantial inititation.

 

Audarya lila,

 

Accepting guru has never been questioned.Everyone agrees that Krsna appears in the form of His devotee as well as in the heart.What it means to accept is sometimes in need of clarification.What is the a distinction between formal and substantial?Form and substance, are they necessarily the same?Which carries the heavier weight?

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting that one go out and pick a devotee for status sake and take initiation in order to belong to a club. The sastra is clear on the matter and that has been presented conclusively in this thread.

 

Yes, but yet it happens all the time.Peer pressure.A pyschological need to feel as though one belongs and is accepted by the larger body that is significant in one's life.To fulfill an ecclesiastically mandated requirement for that acceptance is going on presently.You are correct it is not back by sastra.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was asked why everyone doesn't get a spiritual master. He answered very simply and directly that for one who is sincere it is sure that he will get.

 

No doubt.But the question is often raised as to what form that has to be in.Vani? Vapuh? Both?Even if we say vapuh ultimately it is the instruction or vani coming from that vapuh form that gives it its value.

Disciple means dicipline and service. We approach Krsna through serving his servants. That is the very heart of Gaudiya theology.

 

Yes. And serving means to serve the will of the person being served.

 

If someone learns the will of A.C. Prabhupada, for example,and executes service accordingly, with a desire to please he and Krishna, is he not approaching Krishna?

 

Another very instructive thing that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said in this regard is that one should pray with all his/her heart for a proper guide and that if one continues to find that there is none they should go on praying for mercy.

 

Yes the Lord in the heart directs one to whom He wishes to reveal Himself through to a prospective devotee.Not by outside pressure.We agree here I know.

 

At some point one will have to conclude that the problem is with oneself and not with any lack of bona fide vaishnavas who are worthy of taking shelter of. Krsna is unlimited, so if after a long period we still find that we think no one is qualified, the conclusion is that the deficiency is in ourselves not in Krsna or his devotees.

 

 

Sure.We fool ourselves into thinking we are sincere all the time.Its always helpful to be aware of our deficencies.

 

But with all the wealth of siksa available how could anyone claim to not be able to find a guru?

 

I know some will think I'm part of the ritvik camp.I do accept many of their points.But their insistence,or at least suggestion, that others who accept disciples in a formal manner are envious offenders keeps me from them.

 

theist

[sha 0]

Originally posted by shiva:

Siddartha Gautama, "the Buddha", appeared on earth in order to end the excesses of the ritualistic state of sanantana dharma.

Srila Prabhupada used to denounce the "smarta brahmana" class,who were interested only in the rituals proscribed by the sastra.

Rituals serve a purpose,they are not to be served by us,they in fact should serve us.

As far as needing a particular type of initiation,from a particular type of Guru,in order to ascend to the highest level,.. that is a personal choice.

From my experience, trying to ascend to the highest level,disqualifies you from that level.

The highest level is given,not taken.

The various ritualistic initiations and practices that are proscribed for those who are desiring to attain the highest level,are meant for the purification of that desire,aiming to transform the desire for attainment of position,into the desire to give of yourself,out of affection, in whatever way is required.

At that point,when the desire is no longer, "how can I get into heaven",and only "how can I please God,here and now,leaving the future in God's hands",

Then you are qualified for the highest level,and in fact have attained it.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-10-2002).]

What you have just described is selfless Divine love which is defined in scriptures as:

 

"anyAbhilASitA zUnyaM

jnAna karmAdyanAvRtam,

AnukUlyEna kRSNAnu zIlanaM bhaktir uttamA"

 

(Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu)

 

"guNarahitaM kAmanArahitaM

pratikSaNa vardhamAnam"

 

(Narada Bhakti Sutra- 54)

 

"sarvOpAdhi virirmuktaM

tat paratvena nirmalam,

hRSikeNa hRSikeza sevanaM

bhaktir ucyate"

 

(Narada Panca Ratram)

 

"ahaituky avyavahitA yA

bhaktiH puruSOttame"

 

(Bhagavatam 3.29.12)

 

There are THREE main points to be grasped.

 

Firstly, - anyAbhilASitA zUnyam -

 

one should be devoid of ALL desires.

 

Secondly, - jnAna karmAdi anAvRtam -

'Bhakti' should NOT be diluted by KARMA(ritualistic and obligatory actions), JNANA (doctrines of subtle knowedge and philosophies), tapa (penance, austerity), etc.

 

Thirdly, - AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzIlanam -

 

one should actively love and serve Lord (Krishna) in a pleasing way,

through relationships of Santa (peaceful neutral tranquility), Dasya (humble eternal servitude), Sakhya (eternal friendship), Vatsalya (eternal parent-hood) and Madhurya (passionate amorous-love of eternal sweetheart).