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theist

Coming clean-"it ain't that easy"

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Originally posted by jijaji on another thread:

Many seek affiliation with ancient traditions and lines that give complex esotetic practices and teachings because it is a replacement for realization.

To have spiritual awakening is no easy or common thing, so seekers gravitate to a tradition that clams to possess the 'Highest' or most intimate or most secret teachings etc etc etc.

This is simply a SUBSTITUTE for realizing the 'TRUTH' itself.

It's like 'Fundy Christians' who say all ya gotta do is 'BEIEVE'...

 

 

This is a subject in and of itself.It is not limited to just those who align themselves with the "most esoteric".I have been very aware of myself doing this in many ways.I like to think of myself as an ardent seeker of the truth.

 

The fact is on a couple of occasions when I got a slight glimpse of some aspect of the truth it also involved my recognizing my own utter hatred,( yes hatred) of that reality.

 

I envy Krishna to the core.

 

Somehow I have become cornered by this philosophy.Birth and death sucks.Absorbtion into the impersonal Brahman is clearly not the best option.

 

So I am left hearing and chanting in a half-hearted way at best hoping to lessen my suffering in some way, while I come to grips with the reality that I am the eternal subordinate energy of Krishna and am meant to be enjoyed by Him.

 

It those words 'subordinate' and 'enjoyed'that are causing me grief.

 

So at this level it is like I am hiding from Krishna(and myself)by pretending to myself that I am a true seeker of God.I have also noticed a tendancy to increase my external sadhana at times to actual block this realization.

 

What a game.It is also a pyschological defense mechanism.If we focus too much on our own inner darkness too soon, we would just suffer a nervous breakdown.

 

I feel like a cornered rat.

 

Ys,Ratso Rizo

 

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A true confessions thread. What fun!

 

I have to admit that I found trying to live in India virtually impossible, even though I felt the power of the holy places and had a strong desire to remain there. That is no doubt my being cast out from those places on account of not being fit to reside there. Due to being bewildered by maya, I just rationalized it as the austere conditions and the health problems that resulted (mostly allergies in my case - although I saw a bunch of Americans contract malaria).

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What I am saying here is that people attach themselves to belief systems because they do not know nor have they had direct realization of divine reality themselves, with their own eyes.

 

So they 'BELIEVE' and practice esoteric 'mental gymnastics' which will hopefully bridge the gap between 'belief' and 'knowing' one day. Some even adopt the practice of dressing Indian or shaving the head etc.

 

 

They are encouraged that if they follow correctly they will attain to the same realization and experience of 'Truth' that others before them had who followed.

 

One thing to be remembered...

 

Truth NEVER EVER happens to Organizations or groups or sects.

 

Moksha or Kaivalya or 'Prem' happens 'ONLY' to INDIVIDUALS. Because 'Truth' is an individual affair that can only happen to 'YOU'.

Your experience and expression of 'Truth' or 'God' Or 'Atman' or 'Nirvana' is 'Yours' and 'Yours' 'ALONE'...

 

To impose your truth upon others, to develop dogmatic elaborate systems with hard-line rules and regulations (ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEM) and a system for official belief is to dis-allow the freedom of discovery of 'Truth' in and of itself as an individual experience.

 

Posted Image

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Funniest thing happened just after I started this thread.I sat down and started flicking through some channels on the TV.I stopped when I hit and old Star Wars movie, The Empire Strikes Back.

 

Luke is in Jedi training,running through the woods with Yoda on his back who is imparting ageless wisdom as they go.Yoda says "No more will I teach you today" and they stop.Then Luke senses an unusual and cold spot in the woods.He feel it forboding.Yoda tells him to enter.He asks'What is in there"? Yoda replies"Only what you take in with you".Luke enters and comes face to face and does battle with the figure of Darth Vader.He takes his head off with his light sabre.The mask covering the figures face suddenly explodes off and he see his own face under the dark mask,lying there dead.

 

A classic 'I've seen the enemy and the enemy is me' scene.

 

 

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jijaji said:To impose your truth upon others, to develop dogmatic elaborate systems with hard-line rules and regulations (ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEM) and a system for official belief is to dis-allow the freedom of discovery of 'Truth' in and of itself as an individual experience.

 

jijaji,

I don't find an inherent problem with the rules and reg's.There are most often very good reasons to accept them.I must question my motive for practicing them though.

 

Pretention is my arch enemy.Discovering one's one's real motive is not so easy.

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I was just imagining what the world wd have been like, if there was no religion at all!! Isn't that the predictions of Kaliyuga? Jijaji EXPOSED ------>>> THE AGENT OF KALI. Jijaji, you are trying to mould us as agents of kali, by your new philosophy.... Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

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Ratiji: u r not missing anything. Know it for sure.

Countries like ENRON r rapidly running India into the ground.

Head first. Like tilted daNDavats. Locals comply. Why?

Meanwhile Astor Place & Timessquare HarinAm r much more spiritually intense than anything anyone in any Holy DhAma can ever muster.

Take that to any bank & draw God-Blessed Interest a la fois.

Any public HarinAm-sankIrtan going on near your pad?

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Truth NEVER EVER happens to Organizations or groups or sects.

But truth can be realized by members of an organization, or sangam.

 

Sangam, when performed with spiritually minded individuals, is the best and quickest method to attain spiritual realization. Sadhu-sanga and sat-sanga at two examples or beneficial spiritual orginization.

 

Common sense will tell us that spiritual realization will only occur to a sentient being. Thus Jijaji's argument that organizations don't become realized is just stupid. It's like saying brick buildings, such as church's and mosques, never become realized. Well, they aren't sentient, so its an obvious truth.

 

To take such an argument, and then try to use it as evidence for individuals not joining organizations is kutarka, flawed logic.

 

As for whether we need personal spiritual guides (sat-gurus) to help us advance in spiritual life: The scriptures emphatically state we do, and Lord Krishna reaffirms this throughout the Gita - Himself even taking the role of a personal spiritual guide for Arjuna.

 

Sometimes we think too highly of ourself and our own limited and conditioned abilities. As a result we think we can develop spiritually on our own without any guidance, discipline, or submission. We forget the Upanishads' instructions, "tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet, samit pani shrotriyam brahma nishtham". For the prupose of attaining vijnana, or spiritual realization, one must approach a spiritual master. How should we approach? Samit-pani, "With firewood in hand". The disciple must humbly engage in menial service to the spiritual master, such as collecting sacrificial wood from the forest. Then one may begin hearing from the self-realized soul.

 

In Srila Prabhupada's own words (from a purport to Srimad Bhagavatam):

 

The Vedas (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) give the direction tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: in order to reach the perfection of life or to understand the real constitutional position of the living entity, one must approach the spiritual master. Gurum evabhigacchet--one must; it is not optional. It is imperative that one approach the spiritual master, for by such association one proportionately develops his consciousness toward the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

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The reason is that nobody has been allowed to be just himself, his natural being.

Sri Chaitanya also taught us to be our natural selves - the natural self being an eternal servant of Krishna ("jivera svarupa hoya krishnera nitya das"). Actually, the entire system of pure religion is meant to bring us to the point of just being ourself.

 

Unfortunately some people misidentify their conditioned state for the self, and would prefer to just be their unnatural conditioned identity. But since they don't understand that it is a conditioned state of consciousness (as oppossed to their constitutional state of pure identity), they therefore misidentify it with their natural self.

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The group dynamic in religion is an interesting topic. Consider the rituals that involve group participation. They are by and large ceremonies either for rites of passage or for sacrifices to the gods (or God). Take any person for example and chances are that person follows whatever religion was passed down in her/his family. Yes, there are the rare adventurous souls that investigate other traditions, but they are hardly the norm. The religious institutions and the women and men of the cloth that run them have their own group dynamic, yet they are part of the same community as their congregation (unless they truly are monastics walled up and isolated). The average person may practice to the point of little bit of prayer (big in the West) or brief meditation (big in the East) and attending whatever congregational activities periodically occur, but makes little study of finer points of theology.

 

The type or politicking that tends to occur, wherein doctrine is debated and propagated, occurs in its own arena - that of those movers and shakers that either emerge as religious leaders or fall into step behind the leaders.

 

No doubt ethical standards in any society are very much shaped by religious beliefs. The golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") is found in virtually every religion as the main guiding ethical principle.

 

The bhakti traditions are comprised of aspects with mass appeal as well as those that appeal only to the highly devoted few. The same group dynamics will still be found, despite the finder points of doctrine that set those traditions apart.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

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jnds:

Thus Jijaji's argument that organizations don't become realized is just stupid.

 

jijaji:

No it's not..just the 'Truth" show me ONE organization where all the members become realized ?? None.

 

Realization HAPPENS to individuals ONLY..and if I AM wrong...

show me proof..

I can show you proof of individuals becoming realized...

Name some groups who have or organizations..?

A sanga is just a group that comes together under the same belief a communities of sorts, doesn't mean everyone who joins becomes enlightened!

 

Posted Image

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Originally posted by jijaji:

I re-read through much of this and wanted to retract my statements ..much of it I question me-self Posted Image

 

Posted Image

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-26-2002).]

It was late at night guys..forgive if I went too far over the edge, could have been that strong ganja I was tokin on while typin!

 

Posted Image

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-26-2002).]

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Posted ImagePosted Image

Jijaji Jazzananda Swami:

 

Its OK, amigo.

 

Hey dude, where's my spaceship?

 

Don't worry. Some of us are with you. Like yourself, we also pay homage to the master race from outer space (the same agents that planted that righteous weed you're tokin' on earth) and await the mass migration off planet when the time is ripe. Its not the earthlings fault that they turned the pure religion, as taught by the space aliens when they built the Sphinx ten millenia ago, into the tower of Babel of religions we see today. Everything will be made right and the faithful will get safe passage off of the planet when it gets over populated, too polluted to breathe and nuclear holocaust lays waste to the land.

Posted Image

 

The void of outer space is the only truth. The void is everything (I mean nothing, actually). Hail the void!

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

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Rati, I would caution you about riding with that particular crew.Avoid the voidists,cool crafts or not.

 

I'm ridin' with the grey's.Sure they don't have what we call angelic features but at least they are solid theists.Don't believe the bad press on them.They're just doing their job.

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Jazzananda Swami said:

To impose your truth upon others, to develop dogmatic elaborate systems with hard-line rules and regulations (ALL RELIGIONS HAVE THEM) and a system for official belief is to dis-allow the freedom of discovery of 'Truth' in and of itself as an individual experience.

 

Shakta Rati's response:

Let's take jazz for example: The soloist has the rules of music theory down pat: He knows his scales and his thirteenth chords second nature, yet he breaks out into this free-form wild frenzy of a lick that seems to break all of the rules, but yet at the same time has an aesthetic quality that defies description.

 

The practitioner advanced on the path of rAga-marga is like that jazz artist. His bhAva has moved him into this new space where none of the rules apply any longer. It seems that rAgAnugA bhakti fits the ideal that you are describing perfectly, whereas vaidhi bhakti seems to fall short. Just as the jazz mentor only brings the apprentice artist to the point of finding his own self expression, so the rAgAnugA guru merely guides the sAdhaka to his own personal bhAva, distinct from anyone else's bhAva.

 

In the end all of your arguments actually support rAga-mArga, despite your efforts to undermine it.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-26-2002).]

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Originally posted by theist:

Rati, I would caution you about riding with that particular crew.Avoid the voidists,cool crafts or not.

 

I'm ridin' with the grey's.Sure they don't have what we call angelic features but at least they are solid theists.Don't believe the bad press on them.They're just doing their job.

Its just my plan to infiltrate them and subtly turn them into zAktas. They will become my disciples in devotion to Durga. Jai Kali Ma!

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Originally posted by jijaji:

Ratiji,

 

I do have devotion to Ma Kali I admit

 

Posted Image

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-26-2002).]

Your faith in the Goddess has never been in question, nor has your strong devotion to our friends the space aliens.

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Originally posted by Rati:

In the words of Seinfeldacarya:

"Who ARE these PEOPLE?"

 

Posted Image

They have become known as the Yada Yada's, due to their always chanting the same wherever they go.

 

The group dynamic.A blessing and a danger.We can draw strength and support in numbers, but we must be cautious to not just become sheeple and allow others to do our thinking for us.

 

Somehow even while excepting the help of the larger community, and adding to it ourselves,we must remember that we die alone.We must become so determined that even if we are the only person on earth to execute this process we will keep going.

 

The danger is that many will want just a social grouping experience.We must remain alert to the imperative nature of of these teachings.

 

theist

 

 

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