The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[leyh 0]

A recent article by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja entitled The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka , which can found read online at http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0204/WD09-7259.html states:

 

"It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti."

 

Didn't Srila Prabhupada teach that the jivas originally were in the spiritual world and later fell to the material world?

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (From Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54 purport by Srila Prabhupada)

 

It seems to me that Srila Narayana Maharaja's statement that the jiva did not fall from the spiritual world is contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's explanation of how the jiva came to the material world.They can't both be right here.Comments,anyone?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Avinash 0]

From the same site: -

 

Someone wrote Prabhupada a letter and asked, "Did we ever see Krsna?" Prabhupada replied, "Yes, we saw Krsna, just as the child was with the father before coming out of the mother's womb."

 

["Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." (Letter to Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970)]

 

In other words, he was saying that we never saw Krsna. We were with Krsna because we came from Krsna – from His tatastha-sakti. That person who came out of his mother's womb never actually associated with the father previously. Later on he meets his father.

 

[Avinash 0]

Again from the same site (regarding Jaya and Vijaya) :-

 

Actually, they never came here and became demons. Only a part of them manifested in this world in order to give the Lord pleasure. Bhagavan came in the form of Lord Nrsimhadeva and Lord Varaha to fight with their manifestations, and the complete and original Jaya and Vijaya remained in Vaikuntha as gatekeepers.

 

This made me wondering if there is any Avinash in Vaikuntha whose part manifestation I am?

[Audarya lila 0]

Here is a nice link that discusses this issue in great detail. Leyh, if you read this article the apparent contradictions will be resolved for you.

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva.html

 

This article is very thorough. But beyond the siddhanta presented therein, I think the overall message for all of us is that how and when we became conditioned and what was our former state are all somewhat irrelevant. More important is understanding our goal and acting accordingly.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Rati 0]

What I would worry about, if I were to advocate this idea of nitya siddha persons somehow falling down, is the Vaishanva aparadha towards such perfected souls that I could be unwittingly commiting. The only safe position is to say that the nitya baddha jivas could not possible have been former nitya siddha persons. Another interesting thing about the nitya part of it is that when a nitya baddha jiva attains mukti, then what real meaning does nitya have? On the other hand, what meaning would nitya have for a nitya siddha if that person fell down? From a purely logical standpoint, it does not seem very reasonable to think that a nitya siddha could ever come under the influence of maya - under the influence of the internal potency, Hladini-sakti yes, but not the external potency.

[theist 1]

Originally posted by Rati:

On the other hand, what meaning would nitya have for a nitya siddha if that person fell down? From a purely logical standpoint, it does not seem very reasonable to think that a nitya siddha could ever come under the influence of maya - under the influence of the internal potency, Hladini-sakti yes, but not the external potency.

Rati, I am not advocating any position either way, but consider this.Someone from the other side of the debate could suggest that when the fallen nitya-siddha returns to his position he would find himself in the exact same position due to the absence of the time factor having any influence of past or future in eternity.So once returned,from the eternal side, it could be said he never left.

 

Again, I have no realization that I am advocating.

 

This just appears to be a situation in which our conditioned by space/time logic may fail us.

 

What do you think?

 

------

edited for clarity

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Tarun 6]

Topic Title's question's answer: Correct.

[gHari 0]

We danced around on this one for eons on the now defunct VNN Forums. Unfortunately BVNM has only described the quotes from Srila Prabhupada that are easily explained both ways. There are more difficult quotes, including some very direct answers he wrote specifically to this very question when a similar hubbub rose during his presence on the planet.

 

For me, both are true. Simultaneously, acintya, touching on the point by Rati that nitya really means 'an aweful long time seemingly forever'. Prabhupada said that they fall as Jaya and Vijaya fall. When those two offended the Goddess of Fortune they were scared white that they would have to sink into a very degraded species in the material world and forget Krsna. Forgetting Krsna is truly hell. We accept it as commonplace, but it is truly hell; our hell. I don't know why they were afraid if the all wise Vaikuntha jivas know that no one falls from Vaikuntha. For Krsna's pleasure, of course they may have been purposely illusioned just to manifest these desperate emotions out of fear of separation.

 

Bottom line: it doesn't matter at all. It is just intellectual ego stuff. Chant and be happy. Our position is tiny; His position is great beyond words or concepts. Get over it. Deal with it. The just chant and be happy.

[Rati 0]

If we are going to believe the writings of the Goswamis and later acaryas (despite what SP has to say on the matter), the jivas never were in Goloka and originated from the marginal potency instead. I will provide a few references shortly to back this up. Please be patient.

[Rati 0]

Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10):

 

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh

sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah

na yatra maya kim utapare harer

anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah

 

"In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64:

 

 

"Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time," and again (11.2.37): bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo 'smrtih, "the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva, is anadi, beginningless, and that also accounts for fear bhaya. Asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but one's own spiritual nature. Viparyaya means taking something for what it isn't, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not.

 

More evidence is provided by Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4)

 

 

ekasyaiva mamamsasya jivasyaiva mahamate

bandho 'syavidyayanadir vidyaya ca tathetarah

Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: 'Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time and it is in relation to the jiva alone that the other state (liberation) is brought about through spiritual knowledge."

 

In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free," and in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless." In the Mandukya Upanisad (1.9) is the statement: bhogartham srstir ity anye kridartham iti capare, devasyaisa svabhavo 'yam aptakamasya ka sprha. "Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?" and (1.16): anadimayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate, ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada - "When the living entity, who is sleeping the beginningless slumber of illusion, awakens, he realises the unborn, unsleeping, undreaming non-dual truth." [Neither of these citations are in the Mandukya Upanisad. Their source is currently unknown. - Ed.]

 

Sri Jiva Gosvami writes in his Paramatma-sandarbha (46):

 

"There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge."

 

Sri Jiva says in the Priti-sandarbha (1):

 

"Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations. From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya, consisting of sattva, rajas, and tamas. This was explained in the Paramatma-sandarbha (47): tatparanmukhatva-dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah, where labdha, the attainment, must be considered without time sequence, anadi as stated above.

 

In the Bhakti-sandarbha (120) Jiva quotes from the Vasanabhasya:

 

 

mukta api prapadyante punah samsaravasanam

yady acintyamahasaktau bhagavaty aparadhinah

 

"Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls."

 

Here the word punah means 'again', which proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The aparadhis (offenders) mentioned here are the mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata (10.2.32): aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrtayusmadanghrayah. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse (10.2.33): tatha na te madhava tavakah kvacid, bhrasyanti margat tvayi baddha-sauhrdah. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments (Bhakti-sandarbha, 120): yatha purve arudhaparamapadatvavasthato 'pi bhrasyanti, tatha tavaka margat sadhanavasthato 'pi na bhrasyanti, kimuta mrgyat tvatta ityarthah. Mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?"

 

According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."

 

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (10.87.32) also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world:

 

 

"There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha - those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta - those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha - those who have attained a siddha-deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha-muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya-parsadas - those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They never become conditioned, and are also called nitya-siddhas or nitya-muktas."

 

In his comment on Bhagavad-gita (13.20) Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless: mayajivayor api macchaktitvena anaditvat tayoh samsleso 'py anadir iti bhavah. "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well." The word dvesa in Bhagavad-gita (7.27) does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know.

 

In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, nutna (2.6.359): dure 'stu tavad varteyam tatra nityanivasinam, na tisthed anusandhanam nutnanam madrsam api, and later (2.6.366): tallokasya svabhavo 'yam krsnasangam vinapi yat, bhavet tatraiva tisthasa na cikirsa ca kasyacit. "Nobody desires to leave Goloka."

 

Assuming that previously fallen jivas who return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is not just a speculation, but also an offence to the nitya-muktas. This presupposes that it is better to fall down than to stay and that the 'returners' can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha-bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana-siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti.

 

Regarding the fall of Jaya and Vijaya: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras' curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Bhag. 3.15.48: natyantikam viganayanty ...) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally choose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami further says that their inimical feelings were not real but feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within.

 

As far as Citraketu is concerned, although he offended mother Parvati, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon's body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-10-2002).]

[gHari 0]

It has been postulated that the fall paradym was used by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as a preaching vehicle. I think he knows more about preaching than I do. I think Srila Prabhupada also would have followed his master's lead whatever the actual truth is.

 

I can assure everyone that we will not ask Krsna when we are face to face, "So tell me, have I been here before?"

 

I remember in Jaiva Dharma reading how the fish swims sometimes to one bank of the river and at times to the other. Sometimes to the external energy, sometimes to the internal energy. This sure could have meant that over eternity it's all possible. But at that point I was of the no point school, and it was time for those who needed to know to know and get on with it. There are no points awarded for this stuff; just those who have to be clever get to be clever - whether they are or not. They somehow see it all as so trivial that even they can understand Sri Krsna. Take all the points you need and get on with it.

[theist 1]

leyh,

 

There seems to be a continuing debate on this point amongst some.It is an interesting question and a natural one.How could a thinking being not wonder about his source?

 

One point is that the Brahman effulgence is also the spiritual world.

 

I'll offer one quote from Sri Isopanisad Mantra 16 purport by SP for your consideration.

 

" The all-pervading feature of the Lord- which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls- is known as Brahman."

 

I find it fun to think about this question, but avoid the emotionalism that often surrounds the issue.

 

All will be revealed to us in due course, as we reenter that eternal atmosphere.

 

theist

[Avinash 0]

Here is a nice link that discusses this issue in great detail. Leyh, if you read this article the apparent contradictions will be resolved for you.

 

I read it and liked it a lot. Thank you for the link. Mostly I liked 'Origin Of The Soul'. I read that more than once.

 

[Tarun 6]

"Whence We Came" + many other jIva-tattva VNN articles.

As for that Poor Soul, I saw him fall from the roof.

He was repairing shingle, it was high-pitched, he slipped.

Talk about 'net' worth increasing!

[Sarasvati 0]

Well Prabhus, I read through this discussion and wished I hadn't. For me, it seems to be more of an emotional issue. I can't bear to think that I never was with my Lord and Lady. Furthermore, it is such a comforting thing to know that there is a place for me in the spiritual world - a place in which I naturally fit - and that our stay in this material world is not just a cruel game to achieve a good position in the end. "If you get to be a Manjari, you'll know you've done it well. If a Sakhi, you're still OK, cowherd boy is like 88% right, but a blade of grass, well buddy, perhaps you didn't chant your rounds with enough spontaneous love." This is all nonsense. I believe we have a pre-destined position in the spiritual world which we'll get when we are ready. Not that Krishna consciousness is like some school where we are trying to achieve a degree. You can call me a sentimentalist, if you wish.

[bhaktajoy 0]

Dear Sarasvati Haribol!Yes we were once with God.He is within our hearts...always smiling.No you are not a sentimentalist you are a gentle soul full of love!

 

Love & blessings,Joy

 

 

 

[Citta Hari 0]

Quote:

"I believe we have a pre-destined position in the spiritual world which we'll get when we are ready."

 

According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the svarupa is inherent in the jiva, so this quote is fairly accurate. But this does not imply that the jiva was at one time in the lila and somehow fell from there. The svarupa is eternal, but exists in an unawakened state, and through sadhu-sanga and sadhana (primarily chanting the Holy Name) it awakens.

[theist 1]

Vrajanatha:Is rasa a principle that is predetermined?

 

Gosvami:I cannot answer that question in a single word"Yes" or "No".I will explain the subject elaborately so that you can understand it clearly.

 

This is from chapter 26 of Jaiva Dharma.Gosvami does indeed go on to explain but after several reading I still don't understand.Oh well, I've got more basic work to do anyway.

[Avinash 0]

You can call me a sentimentalist, if you wish.

 

There is nothing wrong in having sentiments. Those who have no sentiments are robots and not human beings.

[Tarun 6]

Sarasvati: no deficiency in grass blade. Siddha-deha is dynamic.

gHari: Both r correct?

Maybe we're getting our Humpty-Dumpties & JIva-JAgos mixed up.

Best explanation I ever heard was from Gaur-Govinda Gosai.

kaniSTha must think: "I was up there with my Creator."

madhyama can think: "I'm generated from His tatashta-zakti."

uttama thinks: "I'm generated for GaurAnga's pleasure-lIlA.

So Nitai can save me."

[gHari 0]

Both. Yes. Since I do not believe that nitya-baddha means we are eternally conditioned forever and ever, then it would seem possible that nitya-siddha may be a similar exaggeration. Bottom line: it doesn't matter, tal fruit, and if it was good enough for Srila Prabhupada and his master to teach, then who am I to speak differently.

[Tarun 6]

Crooks r always looking for a Fall-Guy. Hot Spring is upon us.

[gHari 0]

Is that what you call him now? And me? Did you read the Tal-fruit direct response that Srila Prabhupada made to this question? How have you deduced that he was wrong? Did he not check with you first? Big mistake.

 

[theist 1]

Jaiva Dharma online: http://mandala.com.au/jaiva_dharma/

 

chapter 16 discusses this and raises some questions as well.

[gHari 0]

Srila Prabhupada advises "never mind what is your origin" in the following letter:

 

Letter to: Madhudvisa

--

Unknown Place

Unknown Date

Letter excerpt

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.