Is caste system birth based?

[karthik_v 0]

Hari Bol,

 

I know that this topic has been discussed before. Yet, I came across a few nice posts from a couple of sources and I thought the readers may be interested. Those who have followed the teachings of Srila Prabhupad know that varna is not birth based and based only on guna. Lord Krishna says so:

 

catur-varnyam maya srstam

guna-karma-vibhagasah [bhagavad Gita 4:13]

 

What does the Sanskrit word varna mean? The root word var means choice. You might have heard the word swayamvar. Swayam = Self and var = choice. In other words, swayamvar = [the bride] choosing [the groom] [her] self. So, varna = by choice [of guna]. So, a Brahmana is not by birth, but only by guna.

 

What does Vajrasucika Upanisad say to this regard? VU is part of Sama veda. What does it mean? Vajra = weapon and suci = to clear. So, Vajrasucika = clearing [ignorance] [with] the weapon [of knowledge of the Supreme]. Now what does VU say about varna system?

 

brahma kshatriya vaisya shudra iti catvaro varnas tesam varnanam brahmana eva pradhana iti veda vacananu rupam smrtibhir apy uktam [Translation: There are four varnas - the brahmana, the kshatriya, the vaisya, and the sudra. Of these, the brahmanas alone are foremost.]

 

Then VU goes on to define as to who a Brahmana is:

 

tatra codyam asti ko va brahmano nama kim jivah kim dehah kim jatih kim jnanam kim karma kim dharmika iti [Translation: Among life (jiva), body (deha), society (jati), knowledge (jnana), work (karma) and duty (dharma), what is it that makes a brahmana?]

 

tatra prathamo jivo brahmana iti cet tanna atitanagatan eka dehanam jivasyaika rupatvat ekasyapi karma vasadan eka deha sambhavat sarva sariranam jivasyaika rupatvacca tasmat na jivo brahmana iti [Translation: Since the jiva is part of Brahman, and alive, does that make him a brahmana? No. The jiva is not a brahmana. There are innumerable jivas that have accpeted countless material bodies according to their karma, therefore the jiva cannot be called a brahmana]

 

tarhi deho brahmana iti cet tanna acandaladi paryantanam manusyanam panca bhautikatvena dehasyaika rupatvaj jara marana dharmadharmadi samya darsanat brahmanah sveta varnah ksatriyo rakta varno vaisyah pita varnah sudrah krsna varnah iti niyamabhavat pitradi sarira dahane putradinam brahma hatyadi dosa sambhavacca tasmat na deho brahmana iti [Translation: Is the body a brahmana ? No. The body (comprising of the five material elements) of a candala, as well as that of all other men are subject to old-age and death. A brahmana is called white, a kshatriya red, a vaisya yellow and a sudra black only in respect to their different levels of consciousness (through their gunas). By burning one’s body one does not become free from the sin of killing a realized soul, nor is the reaction of such a sin transferred to one’s son. Similarly, one’s brahminical status is not based on the bodily condition, nor can brahminical status be transferred simply by seminal discharge and the procreation of chidren. Therefore the body does not make one a brahmana.]

 

tarhi jnanam brahmana iti cet tanna ksatriyadayo’pi paramartha darsino abhijna bahavah santi tasmat na jnanam brahmana iti [Translation: Does knowledge make one a brahmana ? No. Since there were many kshatriyas and others who are well versed in the understanding divine wisdom, knowledge does not make one a brahmana.]

 

So, after ruling out all the above, VU answers as to who a Brahmana is:

 

anyatha hi brahmanatva siddhir nasty eva [Translation: A brahmana is he who is absorbed in the Supreme Self.]

 

Again Krishna confirms whatever is stated in VU:

 

samo damas tapah saucam

kshantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma karma svabhava jam [bhagavad gita 18:42] [Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness — these are the natural qualities by which a brahmana is distinguished.]

 

Is the Sankirtana movement started by Lord Caitanya and taken worldwide by Srila Prabhupada, any different from what this Upanisad says?

 

[Gauracandra 1]

Interesting reading. I do think one of our stumbling blocks as devotees in establishing varnashram is that we still have carried over certain caste based notions. I read something that Harikesha Prabhu once wrote, in which he said that we would find it very difficult to institute varnashram because no one would want to be a shudra. But if a shudra is just an occupation, then there is nothing wrong with it. But still we carry notions that this is good, that is less good etc.... His suggestion, which I agree with, is that we should talk in english.

 

Basically set up a system of training for teachers, businessmen, administrators, and laborers (technical skillsmen). Words are powerful because they carry with them hundreds if not thousands of years of history. So the words we use are important if we want to truly institute such a system.

 

And I think a varnashram system definitely would benefit society. If we are each situated properly we can work to our best capabilities. It can give us focus and direction.

[Avinash 0]

As has been my personal experience, many times people think about caste because they are under impression that others also think like that. Let me give an example of my just next door neighbour. He is a brahmin. He was living in that locality before I shifted there. Many poor people live near by. Whenever any child of any of those poor people used to come inside his house for playing, then he used to scold them. To me he used to say, "I don't want these low castes people to come inside my house." But, one thing I used to find very surprising. Often why I came to house from outside, then I used to find children playing inside his house. As soon as he saw me, he started scolding them. After a few days, those children started coming inside my house also. I never scolded them. In fact, often I give them something to play with and something to eat also (chocolates or if some dish is there). Then my neigbour also stopped scolding them. Then, I came to know why he used to behave that way. In his heart, he did not consider it bad to mix with people of different castes. But, he was under impression that I hated people of "so called" low castes. Therefore, he used to pretend in front of me that he also hated them. When he came to know that I did not hate them, he stopped pretending.

[atma 0]

 

Just a little anecdote about caste. In my daughter's birth certificate in the part about caste the clerk put 'indian vaishnav'. Still amuses me to read that. For the second daughter they didn't have anymore the caste part and mother's name, so I don't have legal proof that she is my daughter. That is not amusing.

 

Interesting point about establishing varnashram in the devotee's world. So true, being a shudra is considered less. Too many thinking that they are brahmanas when they don't have the qualifications. Before anybody say anything here, I consider myself nothing, just trying to be a decent human in this lifetime. How is that? Follow the 4 regs to be in the human platform.

[karthik_v 0]

Originally posted by atma:

I don't have legal proof that she is my daughter. That is not amusing.

Yudhistra's curse?! :-))

 

May be because the Indian clerk included Indian Vaishnav as a varna, many devotees perhaps think that they should chuck out shudra to keep the catur varna concept intact!

[atma 0]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Yudhistra's curse?! :-))

 

May be because the Indian clerk included Indian Vaishnav as a varna, many devotees perhaps think that they should chuck out shudra to keep the catur varna concept intact!

Karthik,

 

It is not a secret that my name isn't in her birth certificate, nothing to do with Yudhistir's curse, and I was clever enough to put her in my passport. Some intelligence is there. I don't want to brag about it but I got the 6 F's from Gauracandra's little test and I'm not kidding. For me the 'of' sound like 'of' not 'ove' that he was trying to use like excuse . I showed to two guys last night and they didn't even get 3 they got only 2 even after one of them heard me telling the other that there were 6 F's. How dumb can you be?

[karthik_v 0]

Very interesting points Avinash prabhu and Gauracandra prabhu. I am reminded of a line from Koenraad Elst where he says: in no other culture, has the priesthood denied itself the material comforts, as did the Brahmins of vedic India. That is very succint. In varnasrama, hierarchy had nothing to do with material power. Instead, it were the Sudras and Vaisyas who owned land and wealth. Unfortunately, in recent centuries this got corrupted.

[Gauracandra 1]

In establishing a Varnashram system it would first be important to understand what jobs fit into various functions. For instance, a doctor belongs to which varna? Here is a list of occupations off the top of my head, I'd be curious as to what varna they all fit into:

 

Doctor

Lawyer

Construction Worker

Computer Technician

Farmer

Secretary

High School Teacher

Engineer

Architect

Dancer

Musician

Painter

Historian

Chemist

etc....

 

I think one way to institute such a system would be to create organizations that would help focus the energy of these individuals. For businessmen you could have the Vaisnava Business Association etc.... But where does a dancer fit into this? or Architect? In my opinion these are more technical skills, as opposed to intellectual, business, or administrative, so what varna do they belong to?

 

Gauracandra

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Oddly enough, nearly all of those you listed are Shudras, with the exception of these three:

 

Lawyer

Historian

Teacher

 

Farmer for general use can fall into vaishya, but in practical terms (from what I've seen), most are shudras. They are just manual laborers who are hired to till the land, etc. At least that is what happens in India.

 

As far as a secretary goes, I'm not sure what it would refer to, as there are a lot of possible concepts for that. If its just a clerk, then its a shudra as well.

 

[Gauracandra 1]

Good to know. I thought I was not thinking correctly. I think most people want to say that Shudra positions mean that it is a poor paying job, that doesn't require high training. To me it is a position requiring a person to work and create.

 

A Brahmin uses his mind to teach, engage in philosophy (high school teacher, historian, professor).

 

A Vaisya deals in money transactions (banker, businessman, import/export etc...).

 

A Ksyatriya is an administrator. So I can see lawyers, politicians etc... in this category.

 

A Shudra is someone who builds and creates I think. Most work will be shudra work. Perhaps more technical skills, but this position can still be highly educated. A construction worker builds a house. But an architect is needed to design that house for someone. An architect is a very prestigious position, but they are not teachers, not businessmen, not administrators.

 

The problem is the current words we use are so tainted with the prejudices of the caste system that everyone wants to put Shudra as a bad position. So I think it would probably be best just to not use those words if we are serious about truly instituting a varnashram system. An organization like The Artisan's Guild could be set up for shudras to help organize their skills (like the Vaisnava Business Association for Vaisyas).

[Gauracandra 1]

In terms of percentages, here is a guess of how society might break down.

 

Brahmins (teachers, priests, philosophers) 5%

 

Ksyatriyas (politicians, military, police) 10%

 

Vaisyas (corporate business, small business) 15%

 

Shudra (laborers, service industry, contractors, designers) 70%

 

This is a bit of a guess, but I think most people would fall into the shudra category in terms of the actual work they perform. And a lot of these jobs are high quality, prestigious positions. Shudras are really the legs of society because they support everything else. Most people would fall into this category.

 

Gauracandra

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

I recall a verse that mentions a 1 to 10 ratio for each caste compared to the next. This may not be literal, but a general idea that true brahmanas are a tiny percentage of society and vary rare.

 

It had a ratio of 1 brahmana to 10 Kshatriyas to 100 Vaishyas to 1000 shudras.

 

Maybe it was literal, maybe not. But the idea is clear.

 

[karthik_v 0]

Hari Bol Atma,

 

I meant it as a joke. Not to hurt you or make fun of you.

[atma 0]

Haribol Karthik,

 

I didn't take offense I was clarifying things.

Thank you for the unnecessary apology. That was nice from you.

I don't mind jokes at all.