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Gauracandra

Demonic Possession

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Perhaps demonic possession is voluntary. But so too is drug usage. Still, once a person voluntarily takes drugs, overtime their will weakens, and they become dependent on the drugs. It seems to me that a person may become possessed, and become dependent on the ghostly being and work in a self-destructive manner. In such situations an "intervention" say by an exorcist might be necessary, to help an individual escape a path they might have originally accepted, but which is causing them harm.

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Originally posted by Shashi:

Shashi Stone the crows! GEE its beena LONG time since someone asked me that! I live near Waverley Cemetry in Sydney.

 

Humm well OK Posted Image - - as you wish - at least you are not in the cemetery with the rest of the bhuutagaNaan.h

 

Although, you do possess land close to that site - it may be the bhuutagaNaan.h want to extend their living parameters - thus they possess other grounds i.e. people (just like Colonists’ have done - Now we are getting into conspiracy theory). Or it may be they may just want to have a bit of fun

 

Better watch out

 

Does not Prabhupada say ghosts are mischievous?

 

Oh guess what I heard recently that people who live within 2 klm of that cemetery are not permitted to be buried there.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 02-07-2002).]

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Originally posted by Tarun:

Gauraji: certain Amsterdam bhaktas say:

Asa u smoke or drink, spirits from that plant enter your system.

Shashiji: R there any ancient tombstones in that Waverly Graveyard?

How old is ancient?

 

 

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Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Perhaps demonic possession is voluntary. But so too is drug usage. Still, once a person voluntarily takes drugs, overtime their will weakens, and they become dependent on the drugs. It seems to me that a person may become possessed, and become dependent on the ghostly being and work in a self-destructive manner. In such situations an "intervention" say by an exorcist might be necessary, to help an individual escape a path they might have originally accepted, but which is causing them harm.

I see your point, and acknowledge this. Possession can be partial, but through the obligation of debt (or addiction), can become all-pervasive and requiring intervention. However, with demonic possession, it is doubtful that the demoniac has the ability to distinguish and make the willful deecision to have the demon cast the demon out. This is why the Catholic Church has such a hard time with the subject; it is ultimately up to the victim to change. Even the drug addict undergoing therapy has voiced a desire to be free of his addiction. People enacting an intervention without the consent of the addict or demoniac are in a position to be charged for criminal offenses.

 

This has been amply demonstrated in cases of cult deprogramming in which people have been abducted against their will. Cult deprogramming of this sort is the same as unconsenting cult brainwashing, and therefore criminal. The Church of Scientology sued a cult deprogramming group for kidnapping one it's members in Seattle WA, and they won.

 

People who invoke demons do so with the full knowledge of potential consequences. Who are we to take that right away from them if they have not asked for assistance? I think that's the biggest question of this whole scenario. When does intervention become tyranny and authoritarianism?

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Originally posted by Tarun:

Pre-1900, pre-1800. Any pirates? Mad scientists? Yogis?

I never go into the graveyard but it looks so much dramatic near the seeside cliffs.Why do ask about priates. Are you descended from them? Tarum seems like one pirate name like Amenpeter, is it not?

 

 

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Word-sanga: Pittsburgh Pirates. Does anyone recall Radiant Hall?

In early 1971, we/ISKCON rented Radiant Hall in Pittsburgh.

Really great bldg. Baladev SubhadrA JagaNNAthA on stage.

Spiritual Sky incense dipped, packaged & shipped there.

Few blocks away there was cemetery. Coal + Iron odor area.

I used to walk there & back to chant japa. Spooky-sanga.

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On Greta Van Susteren's new program on Fox News they are discussing exorcisms. There has been a real resurgence in exorcisms. The Pope, it seems, has asked that every diocese appoint an official exorcist. In addition, the Pope reportedly even performed an exorcism recently himself. Another term they brought up is "deliverances" which is not the same as a full blown possession, but rather being influenced by evil spirits. The difficulty is to find a person with adequate experience to perform the necessary rituals. A former Catholic priest (who was being interviewed) said that the best way to learn is by apprenticeship, by studying under other priests who perform the activity.

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Here is a report from NBC about the Pope reportedly performing exorcisms. One interesting point from last nights program was it seems the Catholic Church wants to bring to the fore the notion (again) of a personal evil. Evil is not just something that happens. There is personified evil and that person wants to deviate people away from God.

 

Vatican mum on report of exorcisms

VATICAN CITY, Feb. 19 — The Vatican said Tuesday it would neither confirm nor deny a report that Pope John Paul II has now carried out three exorcisms during his papacy, the latest in September.

THE REV. GABRIELE Amorth, an exorcist for the Rome diocese, told La Stampa newspaper, that the most recent exorcism involved a young woman who appeared to be possessed during the pope’s general audience.

 

“This girl was rolling around on the ground. People in the Vatican had never seen anything like it. For us exorcists it is run of the mill,” Amorth said.

 

A former papal aide, the late Cardinal Jacques Martin, wrote in his memoirs that John Paul performed an exorcism on an Italian woman in 1982.

 

A second case occurred during John Paul’s general audience two years ago, Amorth said at that time. A papal spokesman said then that the pope comforted the woman, but he did not believe John Paul performed an exorcism.

 

In 1999, the Vatican issued guidelines for driving out devils, stressing the power of evil. John Paul has repeatedly sought to convince the skeptical that the devil is very much in the world.

 

Amorth told La Stampa said the pope had carried out the exorcisms “because he wanted to give an example” to his priests.

SPITTING NAILS

For Roman Catholics, exorcism is the casting out of what is believed to be an evil spirit through prayer and the laying on of hands. Amorth said possession by demons took many shapes.

 

“I have seen many strange things...objects such as nails spat out. The devil told a woman that he would make her spit out a transistor radio and lo and behold she started spitting out bits and pieces of a radio transistor,” he said.

 

“I have seen levitations, and a force that needed six or eight men to hold the person still. Such things are rare, but they happen,” he said.

 

Amorth said the woman whom the Pope exorcised in September was still undergoing treatment.

 

“It’s a very serious case. A series of curses,” he said.

 

The interview was published a day after the Pope warned of the daily temptations of the devil during his Sunday address.

“The devil, the ’prince of this world’, even today continues his insidious actions. Each and every man...is tempted by the devil when he least expects it,” the Pope said.

 

The official Roman Catholic exorcism starts with prayers, the blessing and sprinkling of holy water, the laying of hands on the possessed, and the making of the sign of the cross.

 

It ends with the priest commanding the devil to leave the possessed person.

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 02-19-2002).]

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Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Here is a report from NBC about the Pope reportedly performing exorcisms. One interesting point from last nights program was it seems the Catholic Church wants to bring to the fore the notion (again) of a personal evil. Evil is not just something that happens. There is personified evil and that person wants to deviate people away from God.

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 02-19-2002).]

Dear Gauracandra, Does exorcism seem to be more accepted in the older European countries, where Catholicism has more of a history, or does it seem to be a more modern concept from the west?

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I’m sure exorcism is more accepted in those countries that have deeper Catholic roots. I have my own speculation about this renewed emphasis on exorcism.

 

Essentially the Catholic church is seeking to position itself for the next thousand years. And yet modern times are so dramatically different from the last 2000 years. They can’t simply ‘change with the times’. They are the protectors of the faith, the original church from which all other churches have sprung. They need to connect the past with the future.

 

They have declared their theme (so to speak) for the next thousand years as to be “the light of the world.” This is quite interesting as it moves away from the old, stodgy gothic feel of Catholicism. We are even starting to see this “light of the world” theme run through new church architecture (see the Calatrava design under the modern church architecture thread, which incidently is named “The Cathedral of Christ the Light”). But if there is to be greater emphasis of being the light, then there must likewise be greater emphasis on the dark.

 

So a greater focus on the personhood of evil helps to clearly draw that line. It is an entirely philosophically consistent point to emphasize (given Catholic theology). There is a personal evil, named Satan, who seeks to turn people away from this light (God’s church). And it works well within our modern context. Today evil is more and more seen as something that just happens. And yet people today I think more and more want a definite reason for evil. We are exposed today to more evil in the world than ever before due to modern advances. You turn on the news, turn on the radio, get on the internet, go to the movies, check out magazines. Everywhere we turn we see grief, pain, war, starvation…. And we see it happening everywhere. Why is this happening? People want an answer – and so the modern advances that inundate us with evil and the 2000 year old tradition of evil personified I think go well together.

 

And at the same time, the church then positions itself as the light against that evil. It is not a stagnant 2000 year old church. It is a church of light looking forward for the next 1000 years. It is actively fighting this personal evil. Its not stagnant, its active. It is working actively to fight back this darkness with their light. That’s how I see it.

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Seeing the comment about deeply Catholic countries, I fondly remembered my Christmas in Bogota, Colombia a few years back. That experience and my contract in Mexico opened my eyes to just how demonic North America has become.

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Really? How so? I know there are Catholic countries that have a sort of "night of the dead" festival. I'm not sure of its exact significance. Basically, from what I've seen, everyone dresses up in black as skeletons and such, and march with the cross. I really don't know what this tradition is for though.

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EkadAsI Saturday

I agree with gHari. Then again NArada Muni does state:

ahastAni sahastAni apadAnAm catus-padam.. jIvo jIvasya jIvAnAm

So long we remain in bodily desig-NATION, ignorant of karmik law:

THE STRONG shall devour the weak. What can be done?

Then next life they switch places.

No progress for either side.

Bushel coaxing China to accept US Ideals must be some kind of comedy routine B's been working on as of late.

Practice for keeping a straight face. A daily struggle.

Genuine demons do follow certain Vedik rules for material gain.

In West, Demon generally fits into tamogun category = ghostly.

In East, demon is more rajasik.

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How so? Well, the whole thing, but as an example, Christ became part of Christmas again in Bogota. Everywhere.

 

My Australian and American associates looked like absolute demons in the presence of the continuous carols and celebrations. My 'buddies' looked down on the pious 'peasants', as they raced to the bar after work. I tried hard not to show my absolute contempt for them, but eventually it had to be apparent, even to such dull creatures.

 

I guess, overall in a word, it would be renunciation.

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H.H. Bhaktimarga Swami does not just do certain duties for pleasure , He does what needs to be done according to time place and circumstance. He does them with all his heart to serve Srila Prabhpada and Sri Krishna.

Hare Krishna

your servant Manoharini dasi

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All glories to H.H. Bhaktimarga Swami Maharaja!

 

My discontent with North America did surely not include the Maharaja, nor any vaishnavas for that matter.

 

I've seen Maharaja mopping floors and when I asked him he said "I need some purification."

 

Hint, hint, gHari.

 

 

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From the Student of All Religions:

 

I have read a book destined to priest on how to conduct exorcisms, published by the Catholic Church.

 

I was amazed to find out to which extent the procedure ressembles psychoanalysis. There are some differences, of course. Psychoanalysis is secular, exorcism is based on the belief of the existence of G-d and demons.

 

Psychoanalisis requires that the patient confront his inner fears, namely, by remembering traumatizing experiences in his life. When the patient is capable to remember, verbalize and re-live these experiences, he is often capable to heal this traumas. The patient must go back to the time of the trauma and solve the problem retrospectively.

 

During an exorcism, the priest must help the possessed to to back to the moment when the demon entered the body (trauma). When the possessed attains that moment, then he recognises the demon and is capable to chase him away.

 

In other words: It seems that these two procedures have a similar effect on the human spirit. They deal with the reality of the human spirit, but are based on two very different sets of belief that describe one sole reality in two very different ways.

 

We have one reality, the human spirit, and two sets of belief that work in a similar way to treat the same type of suffering. How interesting!

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When I was just a young boy an angel appeared right in front of me. It was here in London. I was getting ready to go out for supper with my mum, sitting on a couch, when suddenly I looked up and there he was. I blinked for a second and he was gone. He didn't say anything at all he just starred at me. This happened when I was 7 or 8 at the oldest, maybe even 4 or 5.

Then when I was 22 or 23, I was praying alone one night when I could see a shadow and lights moving around in my apartment. I could really see these things. I blinked and rubbed my eyes but it was still there. As I continued praying the light started to "answer" my questions by doing one thing when I said yes and another whenever I would say no. I said "If you are the angel who appeared to me all those years ago I have found out by your actions that you are the devil himself, and if you are appearing in all these wastefull forms now you had better get the Hell out of my house, your not God!

He got angry and started crawling around my body and I could feel something moving around on my head, it sort of itched or tickled, but this was no time for jokes. I put my hands on my head to see if I could stop whatever was happening. I was completely terrified thinking "what if this really is the devil and he attacks me? I haven't found God yet and I may be to weak to fend him off by myself. No sooner had I thought this then he seemed to go right into my head.

I read a quote once from Babylonian literature which reads "this kind of demon is known to enter through the head and cause an insanity and death of a most extraordinary nature." This is appearantly what this spirit keeps threatening me with and my head is swollen and I can feel him moving around every day now. All this spirit does is hurt people and terrorize them! Demons are real.Now it is that every time I tell this spirit to go away he stings me or pseudoties me up...it seems half to prove that I am his hostage.Satan is real and evil. There's a whole lot more I could say about this, but I am actually asking for help.

When I was young I saw an angel, put faith in him, decided to follow him even if it meant no job therefore no money, no wife or children, I knew people wouldn't understand what I was saying or doing so I was prepared to never have any friends but this angel and his friends. After I gave this all up and had went many nights without food or sleep when I was completely exausted and NEEDED sleep thats when he grabbed on to my and my life turned to complete Hell! I've had the police phoned on me over 20 times in the past 3 years for screaming "God Help Me! Don't let this demon hurt me or kill me!" So I've been evicted and have no place to lay my head. I have no home no friends no health no job my family doesn't believe in angels or truth or anything! I am alone all the time with Satan harrassing me.

I am 26 now and am only hoping to see 27. Please help me if you can get a hold of anyone who has done successfull exorcisms in the past.

Please get back to me if you can.

Yours Keith Waddell

 

 

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