Janus 0 Report post Posted January 25, 2002 Jesus of Nazareth, having been persecuted by his primitive society for the crime of being ‘different’ and for the crime of questioning ‘authority’, became very sensitive to injustice. This is reflected in his world view and, because of his thoughtful responses to his experiences, we have a great deal to learn from him. This should not blind us to the reality that he was living in a much simpler and less knowledgeable society. Thus as he was limited to express himself in accordance with time, place and the capacity of his listeners to understand him, he could not express himself with the clarity of which we are now capable of, and neither could Srila Prabhupada, as he also was limited in his presentation aparently by the levels of intelligence and purity of his listeners, which you viewed appropriately in one of your comments as being so immature that we are still suffering today from their premature commitment to oaths that they would have to keep for their entire lifetimes if they were to be truthful to their commitmant. I liked also the point that you made that one must actually realize, or come to the position of an actual knowledge of the absolute truths that one is iterating rather than just contenting oneself with the occupation of a parrot and repeating the words that one has heard. The comparison is meant to illustrate that a human beings conceptual understanding of the Krsna conscious philosophy has in fact no more actual understanding of the points that the words are making than a bird has of the words that it is parroting or repeating. Bhaktivinode Thakur, who I notice that you are so found of went so far as to say that the words being repeated by a conditioned soul are never true, even if they are the exact same words being pronounced by a liberated living entity. Thus the words are not the things which they are referring to, or they are the things. This statement follows the Thakurs comment that the words uttered by a liberated Vaisnava are always true, meaning that they are transcendental, meaning that they are not the symbols for the things but that they are the things and thus that they are the absolute truth. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus speaks of this and of their transformative nature when he says that " Those who drink from my mouth shall become as I, and that I shall become them." This supports another point that you were making, that one must become transformed oneself, that one must become guru, although I liked the way that you said it much better and was wondering if you would re-post it. I originally intended this to be only a letter but it would be hiding your light under a bushel to keep such lofty spiritual insights as your posts give the example of your possessing just to myself and since the forum manager has invited you to start a new topic with the suggestion being that if a new topic is begun that he will not delete it's posts regarding spiritual matters, even if they happen to be the exact same ones that were posted on the dharma mela thread were deleted, perhaps he will make good his promise and then your light will shine out for all to see. We must learn to build upon what they understood and taught, not just cling to their expressions as to a dogma, for to do so would deaden them. Hari bol [This message has been edited by Janus (edited 01-25-2002).] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
valaya 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2002 jndas Administrator posted 01-25-2002 01:14 PM If you want to post a message which you feel has spiritual content, please post it in a fresh thread. Sorry for any inconvenience. Thank you for the expression of regret, if that's the proper term. I'll try to dig up the post that was singled out for deletion from the Dharma-mela thread last night, without explanation or comment. Also thanks to Janus for such understanding support. As usual, you've fearlessly grasped the bull by the horns. Hopefully I'll come up with a worthy reply to your direct and challenging post. valaya [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 01-26-2002).] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
valaya 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2002 Here is the post from last night as promised. Any implied criticism should be seen in the context of what I firmly believe are most important philosophical points involving the very root of our spiritual focus as Gaudiya vaisnavas. Those who see no relevance to themselves need not participate in this or any other discussion. We are all free to choose for ourselves where we wish to join in these forum threads. jndas may have been receiving complaints from certain people. jndas: Just for the record, 95% of the time I delete anything it is because some user has complained. Most of the time I'm just skimming and miss something that may be offensive. Regarding this particular thread, I had not read it at all until I received several complaints from users. Some usually anonymous users (see above quote) seem to feel, however, that they have the right or duty to demand that the moderator delete posts/threads or even permanently ban supposed gross offenders. Surely that defeats the very freedom of debate that `Spiritual Discussion` requires if it is to be productive in our common search for a deeper understanding of what realization of the absolute truth actually entails. Certainly, it is not a cheap or painless process by any means. We must challenge ourselves as well as each other if there is to be real sincerity in our interactions. It's not for the faint of heart! ******************************************************** Originally posted by Pita das: Well Janus All we can say is you had a bad experence with Rocana Prabhu which we havent It is better that you forget and forgive Let it go and let it pass. we dont have to assiocate with everyone but we look for those devottees which inspirit us to continue on. avoid those that do not. Originally posted by valaya: Sadly, Pita das, while I must agree with `forgive and forget`, association according to our own heartfelt inspiration is exactly what Rocana is advising against! Brahma das and Audarya Lila das harbour no ill will or bad feelings towards Rocana das. They are personally and philosophically disputing, quite expertly I might add, what is being broadcast publicly through an internet forum, on a harekrsna website no less, in an effort to influence older devotees or entice newcomers backwards up a narrowing one-way street with no exit. Without confirming our evolving realizations and personal viewpoints at least with those of previous acaryas through their books, but preferably under the personal guidance of a living guru (absolutely perfect or not), at the very least our advancement becomes stifled. That's one thing, but to stifle others is surely far more serious., which I believe is the motivation behind the confrontation on Dharma-mela. Although we were all trained to preach and it is the desire of Lord Caitanya that everyone become guru, there's a world of difference between parroting scripture and realizing it. To truly distribute His Divine Grace, one must actually become His Divine Grace and thereby manifest His Divine Grace. If we limit His Divine Grace to any one personality or group, living or not, and cannot see Srimati Radharani and Lord Caitanya as it's sole source, then we are not followers of the parampara we profess to be. It is our personal responsibility to realize for ourselves what the term `Rupanuga` means and if it cannot be seen as synonymous with `Prabhupadanuga`, then something within our realization requires correction. That is the `great enemy` Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur warned us against, known as sectareanism. In fact, sectareanism goes much farther to include the exclusion of all religions, indeed everyone! The solution is, as Bhaktivinode advised, to become an essence follower and attach ourselves there, learning to extract that same essence everywhere and developing a taste for it. It is perfectly clear to me that the spiritual essence is personalized as none other than Srimati Radharani Herself, and Mahaprabhu due to Her mood. She is pure devotional service as well as the controller and bestower of it, whether through Lord Caitanya, Sri Gurudev or even Her own Sweet Self. That is how and why She controls Sri Krsna, which is what makes Bhakti effective as a means of self-realization. That self the bhakta comes to realize, in this particular sampradaya anyway, is part and parcel of Sri Radhika and one with Her in mood. The difference is, we serve Her mood through Sri Gauranga as Her variegated infinitesmal portions, while She remains the gushing source of that Divine Love which is our very life and soul. Through devotional service under the guidance of a pure devotee the doors are all opened to an emotional attachment directly with Her, our dearmost Swamini-Kisori. This is the real dovetailing recommended by Srila Prabhupada as the fastest process. Once that is achieved to some extent, anything and anyone can help to cement it more firmly. One who genuinely knows himself/herself as the least is able to benefit from the association of their beloved Sri Gurudev in all! ------------------ Radhe Radhe always Radhe! amanpeter@hotmail.com [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 01-26-2002).] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
valaya 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2002 For your info: My above post has been substantially re-edited for clarification. I do hope it will be at least acceptable enough to remain on this forum for further discussion. Thank you. valaya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kailasa 0 Report post Posted January 26, 2002 Sri Caitanya it Krisna. The statement about Tulasi. "The tulasé leaf is very useful even from the medicinal or antiseptic point of view. It is considered sacred and is offered to the lotus feet of the Lord. The tulasé leaf has numerous good qualities, but if it were not offered to the lotus feet of the Lord, tulasé could not be of much value or importance. Similarly, one may speak very nicely from the rhetorical or grammatical point of view, which may be very much appreciated by a materialistic audience, but if one’s words are not offered to the service of the Lord, they are useless." "Tulasi leaf is very, very dear to Visnu. All Visnu-tattva Deities require profusely Tulasi leaves. Lord Visnu likes garland of Tulasi leaves. Tulsi leaves mixed with sandalwood pulp and placed on the lotus feet of the Lord is the topmost worship. But we must be very careful that Tulasi leaves cannot be placed on the feet of anyone else except Lord Visnu and His different forms. Tulasi leaves cannot be placed even on the lotus feet of Radharani or on the lotus feet of the Spiritual Master. It is entirely reserved for being placed on the lotus feet of Krsna. " Just as Tulasi loses value not being offered to the God, whether is exact as there is a sense to speak about energy putting her above than her source? Rupa Gosvami it is devotee Sri Caitanya. Among Gosvami devotee Lord Caitanya it Rupa and Raghunatha Gosvami, therefore if the philosophy is deformed to speak Prabhupadanugi very correctly as a matter of fact. SP also represents philosophy Gosvami. Sambhoga it not philosophy Gosvami. The promise in time initiation means that devotee early or late will reach success. If not to take the promise, it will be simple a society(community) of the mature villains without conscience. Completely to all to correspond it is not possible, but the promise wakens conscience, the promise does(makes) devotee restrained and protects, the promise strengthens feelings devoted to the God, the promise cuts the site of material life. Prabhupada cuts this site, He knows that does. ******** 'It is understood that some of the gopés are personified Vedic literatures, while others are reborn sages, daughters of cowherds, or demigod maidens. But by no means, my dear King, are any of them ordinary humans.’ “In their previous lives most of the gopés were already fully endowed with transcendental knowledge. It is because of this knowledge, not their lust, that they were able to attain the Supreme Brahman.” “The daughters of cowherds, referred to here as gopa-kanyäs, must be eternally perfect, since we never hear of them having executed any sädhana. Their apparent sädhana of worshiping goddess Kätyäyané in the role of gopés merely manifests their manner of playing like human beings, and the Bhägavatam narrates the account of this worship only to show how they had fully taken on the role of cowherd girls. The deva-kanyäs, daughters of the demigods, who are mentioned in the verse beginning sambhavas tv amara-striyaù, are explained in Çré Ujjvala-nélamaëi as partial expansions of the gopés who are eternally perfect. That the çruti-cäré gopés, the personified Vedas, are sädhana-siddha is understood from the following words of theirs quoted in the Båhad-vämana Puräëa: “The åñi-cäré gopés are also sädhana-siddha, as stated in Ujjvala-nélamaëi: gopälopäsakäù pürvam apräptäbhéñöa-siddhayaù. Previously they were all mahärñis living in the Daëòaka forest. “The Vedas declare that without spiritual knowledge there is no valid path to liberation...” One should not take cheaply the gopés’ achievement of personal association with Lord Kåñëa The gopés do not care for their own pleasures or pains. All their physical and mental activities are directed toward offering enjoyment to Lord Kåñëa. Ädi 4.175 “O Pärtha, the gopés know My greatness, My loving service, respect for Me, and My mentality. Others cannot really know these.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
