"DAINYA" (HUMILITY)

[leyh 0]

"DAINYA" (HUMILITY)

 

From His Divine Grace

Bhaktivinoda Thakura's

"SaraNaagati"

 

"I am an impious sinner and have caused others great anxiety and trouble.

 

I have never hesitated to perform sinful acts for my own enjoyment. Devoid of all compassion, concerned only with my own selfish interests, I am remorseful seeing others happy. I am a perpetual liar, and the misery of others is a source of great pleasure for me.

 

The material desires in my heart are unlimited. I am wrathful, devoted to false pride and arrogance, intoxicated by vanity and bewildered by worldly affairs. Envy and egotism are the ornaments I wear.

 

Ruined by laziness and sleep, I resist all pious deeds; yet I am very active and enthusiastic to perform wicked acts. For the worldly fame and reputation I engage in the practice of deceitfulness. Thus I am destroyed by my own greed and am always lustful.

 

A vile, wicked man such as this, rejected by godly people, is a constant offender. I am such a person, devoid of all good works, forever inclined toward evil, worn out and wasted by various miseries.

 

Now in old age, deprived of all means of success, humbled and poor, Bhaktivinoda submits his tale of grief at the feet of the Supreme Lord."

 

Copyright, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 11-23-2001).]

[Janus 0]

When I first entered Krsna Consciousness movement, the first male devotte that I met tried to get me to accept some similiar guilt trip, commanding me in an authoritarian tones to say that "I am a fool and a rascal." Of course I wouldn't. He was persistant however and wore down my patience thus after several days I finally relented and when he came to me agian and hepeated his command I said "OK YOU are a fool and a rascal." Bewilderingly this however did not appease him and he became angry and offensive towards me.

There was a lot of abuse in the movement back then, a lot of people going around telling other people that they were worms in the stool and other things and in general torturing them and making them feel like crap about themselves. It became physcically abusive too and whatever sick and depraved attitude that it represented was in fact the origin of how we could tolerate such abuse of woment and children as we did (I didn't, i left rather than put up with this bs)thinking that since we were such crap that the abuse was good for us.

Anyway I never said that I was a fool and a rascal. The guy kept it up and finally went to far in my estimate. getting physical. Since I was big and strong, trained in the same style of Karate as 007 James Bond (Sean Connery) and was also a student of Blind Master Po's from the TV series Kung Fu third seaon stunt double Kam Yuen this was not the best idea. Under judicious application of similiar pressure as he meant to apply to me he finally relented and said "I am a fool and a rascal). It must have worked for him personally for he seemed to advance spiritually immediately, no longer needing to perform deity worship in the temple he left immediately after that to become a wondering mendicant preaching Krsna Consciousness I suppose.

I never accepted that my parent or that the karmis were demons either, all that I accepted was that this type of bs applied to us was just a bunch of crap. Finally a couple of years ago I had my satisfaction when I read on one of the BB's that Srila Prabhupada had stunned a meeting of the assembled devotees by telling them that all of their mothers were pious, even though they were meat eaters. How much more pious were all the devotees who were tortured amd made to suffer, exploited and victimized due to the attitudes that they were all nothing but piles of crap? It's a shame.

 

[Guest guest]

Janus: When I first entered Krsna Consciousness movement, the first male devotte that I met tried to get me to accept some similiar guilt trip, commanding me in an authoritarian tones to say that "I am a fool and a rascal."

 

Satyaraj: Dear Janus, for certain you know that this work by Bhaktivinoda is called Saranagati, meaning Surrender.

 

A similar situation is found in Gita. Arjuna had committed so many activities that could be considered sinful. He was linking these sinful activities to his present situation in the battle field where he was to be killed, or he would have to kill his gurus, relatives, friends, and everyone who he loved.

 

Before such a situation he was completely perplexed and simply could not know what to do. We pondered so many religious possibilities as prescribed by karma-sastras as atonement, but none of them could resolve that situation.

 

Regret is the feeling that one may have in such a condition of despair. Also he will have a feeling of incapacity and a need to take shelter in something greater than the previous codes and rules of life that had caused that situation. These feelings are called ‘dainya’ or humility. That sort of humility is different than false modesty.

 

This situation is very difficult to be faced indeed. Mahabharata is not an ordinary novel. In that crucial point of Mahabharatha, its author sees the opportunity to show that all religious activities may lead one until that point; “saranagati.” So, in Gita, the solution for Arjuna’s quiz is given by the verse 18.66. “Abandon all sort of religion and simply do saranagati to Me. I will protect you from all kind of sins. Fear not!”

 

This kind of feelings, however, cannot be imposed as a religious discipline. They should be spontaneous.

 

[Janus 0]

"This kind of feelings, however, cannot be imposed as a religious discipline. They should be spontaneous."

 

But there was such imposition, or attempt of it and it's still going on today. And you know, I'd say that most of it probably didn't fit then and that it doesn't fit today, that it never fit, that it never applied, that most of the people joining the movement were just like their mothers, pious souls. That we they were abused in this manner was the only crime that anyone should feel remoseful of.

I have heard in recent years some persons complain that the women and children to were raped, tortured in our movement had no business complaining because it was simplu their karma and that the perpetrators of the abuse were actually only helping them to expiate that karma and that therefore they were not responsible and that they shouldn't thus be held accountable...that Srila Prabhupada knew what was going on and yet that he did not stop it out of such type of consideration...and these "arguements" have been made by people high up in the various camps, including by one whose disciples fancy him an uttama-adhikari. Talk about a sick and twisted religion.

 

 

 

[jijaji 0]

I remember back in like 71-72 once when I was a brahmachari

after one sunday feast being totally stuffed with prasad to the gills I went down the block to the local store to buy a 7up to relieve my indigestion. I had heard from time to time Prabhupad did the same, but it was not yet safe for most of us to enduldge, a few temple presidents maybe but not most of us... that was too far into maya.

Well anyway...I snuck it back into the temple and headed to the tulsi room to hide and drink it up. Somehow I was followed and before I knew it the lights blarred on in the tulsi room with me in front of the temple president, vice-presodent, temple commander, treasurer and anybody else who had any type of position of authority.

I remember being yelled at that I was in maya and this and that... blah blah blah....

 

Very funny experience, but it shows some of the stupidity that exists.

A year latter pretty much everyone was drinking 7up...

sprite as well

 

 

¸..· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-

¸.·´ .·´¨¨))

((¸¸.·´ ..·´ -:¦:- jijaji

-:¦:- ((¸¸.·´*

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 11-23-2001).]

[Guest guest]

In his Jaiva-dharma Bhaktivinoda has enhanced that regret and feelings like that of dainya, or this sort of humility are only found at the level of jñana, the step before saranagati.

 

According to his theology that follows Ramananda-samvada as presented by Krsnadas, jñana is the stage after religious life; that’s to say, after sakama and niskama-karma.

 

If one gets a missionary activity and he is gathering so many people in different stages of evolution in the name of a church, or a institution, what one should expect so find? For certain those institutional leaders, new converted people, won’t be at the upper stages of the sanatana-dharma evolution. They won’t even know how to discriminate such stages. Rules meant for niskama-karmis such as celibacy would be artificially imposed to sakama-karmis. Niskama-karmis would be placed as jñanis, jñanis as muktas and gurus, and one will have a mess.

 

That is why sanatana-dharma does not recommend proselytism. These artificial institutions forcibly might deteriorate into real concentration camps meant for fanatics.

 

 

 

[Janus 0]

Very funny experience, but it shows some of the stupidity that exists.

A year latter pretty much everyone was drinking 7up...sprite as well

 

I had sex with a bhramacharini once. I guess that alot of other guys were doing it. Of course that was many years after I had left the movement, and it was for magickal purposes, while I was in the movement I never even thought lustfilly about any of the bhramacharine even once. Anyway even this one was a special circumstance, she just got tired of waiting for the temple authorities to arrange a marriage for her. Ramesvara didn't like Rshabhadeva, telling her that Srila Prabhupada had said that he was a snake, and the nazi devottee PadhmaGharba that he tried to fix her up with instead...well she never much liked him anyway so when GadhaGaraj rubbed her feet with sandlewood oil that was pretty much it, he was forced to shave off his sika and both were force to leave the temple.

She'd been pretty much on her own after that, except that she once got married to a karmi but he liked to beat her. When I ran into her it'd had been twenty years since I had introduced her to Krsna consciousness, and just a day or two less than that from the night when I drove her down to the temple and she joined up.

I hadn't heard from her in almost 15 years, and hadn't seen her except for a glance in the almost twenty, but when she tapped me on the shoulder at the Rathyatra amongst the crowd of tens of thousands and I turned around to see Great Jaganatha towering over me and to hear a voice asking "Do you remember me?" (I had forgotten my promise till that moment), well that was pretty much it. And I never sought or asked for Initiation in Krsna Consciousness but am an Initiated Witch and sex magick is something that we do.

Anyway I helped her and now the man that she considered to be her perfect match is with her boyfriends sister (I told her that she had to follow directions) and she's pretty much still miserable. After that I pretty much swore off practicing sex magick with bhramachari's.

Don't know what that has to do with anything, just trying to think of something that I had ever done that might be worthy of the degree of condemnation that you were the benificiary of and couldn't come up with anything for I was very self disciplined. No one ever reprimanded me and no one ever scolded me for I pretty much was a model citizen. There was that one single time that I pisced off Srila Prabhupada and he glared at me, but that wasn't for breaking any of the regulative principles, it was for something much, much worse, it was for ironing my dhotti in the temple room, it was for being vain.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).]

[Janus 0]

If one gets a missionary activity and he is gathering so many people in different stages of evolution in the name of a church, or a institution, what one should expect so find? For certain those institutional leaders, new converted people, won’t be at the upper stages of the sanatana-dharma evolution. They won’t even know how to discriminate such stages. Rules meant for niskama-karmis such as celibacy would be artificially imposed to sakama-karmis. Niskama-karmis would be placed as jñanis, jñanis as muktas and gurus, and one will have a mess.

 

Well we certainly have that, don't we? What your post brings up is a question far more controversial than the one you brought up in your thread as to whether Krsna Consciousness, as it was given to us by Srila Prabhupada was a Hindu sect or not.

Since your post here pretty much describes what ISKCON was/is, the question that comes up is whether Srila Prabhupada even understood what you in your post make clear, and that if he did then what?

 

That is why sanatana-dharma does not recommend proselytism. These artificial institutions forcibly might deteriorate into real concentration camps meant for fanatics.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-23-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Janus: Since your post here pretty much describes what ISKCON was/is, the question that comes up is whether Srila Prabhupada even understood what you in your post make clear, and that if he did then what?

 

Satyaraj: Well, that is a deep question indeed! For certain your Prabhupada was a very qualified and sincere master. He had a deep understand on Ramananda-samvada and has made a nice commentary on that famous dialog that is the backbone of Gaudiya-vaisnava’s theology.

 

He perfectly knew all these stages and he was only following Caitanya’s thesis that harinama-sankirtana may accelerate the whole process by shorting its stages. But every stage should be stepped one by one. One cannot by pass any stage of sanatana-dharma’s evolution. If he is placed at sakama-karma stage, for example, he cannot go straight to the stage of jñana without stepping the previous stages.

 

Most of people who were adopting his teachings were coming from the avaidhi stage, where not even elementary sastric disciplines are followed. To that people one should offer sakama-karma. The deity is worshiped as the prompter and concessor of the good karma. Sins are to be avoided and pious activities are to be exalted. The result will be a prosperous and happy material life. So, he has given to that people the 4 principles, to avoid major sins and living a pious religious life full of vaidhi-bhakti, or sastric injunctions, such as the 64 angas of vaidhi bhakti as prescribed by Pañcaratrata. In that stage material desires are there. They might be there, as they are the propeller of any further spiritual progress!

 

After some lifetimes in such a discipline one may evolve to niskama-karma, avoiding most of his material desires. This is the natural evolution of karma. Then follows celibacy, seclusion, austerities, and so on. Not before this stage. Niskama-karma leads to jñana, and jñana leads to saranagati. Saranagati leads to jñana-misra-bhakti and this mixed bhakti may lead to suddha-bhakti or pure bhakti after mukti. One will spend countless lifetimes to complete the whole process. But it is certain that it will be completed.

 

The fact, however, was that such a proselytist program was never tried before. Prabhupada’s Godbrothers used to criticize him due his immaturity and lack of know-how on preaching, as he was only a layman within Gaudiya-matha. But in fact we should take these criticism with a pith of salt, as none of his Godbrothers had been exposed to Western reality as he was. Actually it was the first tempt of a mass conversion program ever promoted by a Hindu sect. He did not has employed the term ‘mass conversion program’, but ‘Krsna-conscience.’ Perhaps the real term would be ‘the conscience of sanatana-dharma.’

 

So, we can conclude that Prabhupada for certain knew the theory very well, but when a theory is put in practice...

Anyway we must glorify Prabhupada as one of the greatest sanatana-dharma’s preceptors that ever had appeared.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 11-24-2001).]

[Janus 0]

So, we can conclude that Prabhupada for certain knew the theory very well, but when a theory is put in practice...

 

God's tears caught in Krsna's hands, wept from the eyes of Srimati Rahdharani. Other's may make of it as they will. Imagine Krsna's rage that the trust of the spiritual master was betrayed.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Hari bol