Faith vs. Literalism

[gHari 0]

darwin,

 

Actually, (is that really your name), I think after you strengthen your toehold in your eternal self through devotion and heighten your absolute faith in Krsna and His pure devotees, you can make the 'God of Science' website into a very meaningful pilgrimage of mercy for all the rational people who have lost religion due to seeming conflicts with science.

 

I have no doubt you will find a quiet contented assimilation soon enough. Hopefully, with Krsna's help, you will then demonstrate to the world that the Vedas make absolute sense, and Lord Nityananda will be pleased with your heart's progress and your service to Lord Caitanya's mission.

 

It does not take long to become strong, for as He promises to those who worship Him constantly with love and devotion, Krsna gives the knowledge by which they can come to Him. Never lose perspective. Always remember His inconceivable greatness. Never doubt or fear, because He can resolve paradoxes like the sun evaporates murky water. Let Him. He is quite fond of that.

 

I wish you all success with Krsna. It seems your heart is ready now.

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[Janus 0]

"The spirit soul when it falls into the material entanglement takes on each of 8,000,000 different forms before arriving at the human form. It begins at the most simple level of life and progressively inhabits one by one through increasing complexities until finally reaching the human form."

 

Hmmm, that's a little bit like I heard Srila Prabhupada explain it, only I heard him say that the first birth that we take in the material universe is not that of the lowliest living entity, but that of Lord Bhrama, the creator of the Universe. I guess that it would be easier to foster self delusion that way, after all there are many peoples who believe that the creator of the material universe is in fact God.

 

 

[gHari 0]

Bhakta George,

 

Since Lord Brahma lives for 311 trillion earth years before the whole creation is again retracted, it would likely not be practical to have such a tight pipe on the entry into the cosmos in order to get the innumerable unmanifested jivas eventually situated (but of course with the mathematics of infinity just about anything is possible).

 

Maybe you heard Prabhupada say that "a spirit soul first enters each universe as Lord Brahma" which actually meant in our ambiguous English language that "one spirit soul first enters each universe as Lord Brahma". We do know that that is true; and that he then creates according to Lord Krsna's desires for the onslaught of the masses.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

One should be aware that in sanatana-dharma dissension is allowed, and that there are many schools of thought like Sankhya, Yoga, Vedanta, Sakta, Pasupata, Vaisnava, Saiva, and so on. Therefore one may find as many cosmogonies as schools of thought and we cannot say that Bhagavata’s version represents the “Vedic” viewpoint, as simply there is not a “Vedic” viewpoint or a sruti’s cosmology given in details.

 

Sarga and visarga (primary and secondary creations) are primary ideas (sruti) mentioned in sruti texts such as Veda, Upanisads and Vedanta.

 

Details on sarga and visarga (primary and secondary creations) are given by smrti such as Puranas, and those smrtis are but inferences and never should be considered as absolute evidences, and they are allowed to amply diverge among themselves.

 

Western science may find its own cosmology, that is another inference, or another smrti on the fundamental sruti (idea) of creation. Like any other cosmology, however, it is far below the possibility of to fully describe the hole lila of creation as displayed by Hari.

 

[Guest guest]

gHari: "a spirit soul first enters each universe as Lord Brahma" which actually meant in our ambiguous English language that "one spirit soul first enters each universe as Lord Brahma".

 

Satyaraj: Actually according to the Bhagavata’s cosmology, the Garbodakasaiy Visnu is called Hiranyagarbha and He is the sum of all living entities who should live in a specific brahmanda. That Visnu manifest the Hiranyagarbha that is the cosmic egg full of jivas. The first jiva who springs from that cosmic egg of jivas is called Brahma, and as he is placed over this egg he is also called Hiranyagarbha Brahma (Bhagavata Purana 5.1.9).

 

Sometimes the term Hiranyagarbha is employed to designate Garbodakasaiy Visnu, sometimes the cosmic egg, and sometimes Brahmaji.

 

[Janus 0]

>>Since Lord Brahma lives for 311 trillion earth years before the whole creation is again retracted, it would likely not be practical to have such a tight pipe on the entry into the cosmos in order to get the innumerable unmanifested jivas eventually situated (but of course with the mathematics of infinity just about anything is possible).<<

 

Obviously GHari. Universe is the sum total of all possibilities.

Hare Krsna

 

P.S. But I also read it, perhaps my imagination only read it that way, hard to say as I was only newly born.

Hari bol

 

 

[Janus 0]

GHari, all

Please forgive me for the abruptness of the last reply to your post but insurmoutable eternal time and existential pressure compelled it's brevity. I gained through little study to the top 5% in the National Average on my college entrance score so I do appreciate your reasoning, which is quite advanced. I compliment you.

To the point of this discussion though Following John Lockes social theory no quarter can be given to any religion that defies "us".

Many religions have capitulated, thus providing very little alternative to the acceptance of Darwins theory, not as if it were just a theory, or an unproven, but as it is taught to our innocent children, as if it were factual, not simply a model which Darwin himself admitted was probably wrong, and which he himself recognized as not befitting all the facts.

The capitulation of mainstream religion to the Machine Age Materialist World or… View is a neccessity for their survival as powerful institutions, otherwise they would suffer the fate of the millions of nuns and priests that were butchered by the Soviets and by the Red Chinese.

For example, the New Catholic Encyclopedia stated in 85 that “General evolution, even of the body of man, seems the most probable scientific account of origins.” This statement seemingly backs up your claim that man was made in the image of a protazoa, an indragopa, rather than it does support the word of Srila Prabhupadas, his claim that man was made not only in Gods image, but as himself a veritable God, a Lord of Creation, as Lord Bhrama, the Creator of the Material Universe.

What sense it would make otherwise, to have to evolve from a state in which karma, a material concern cannot be created, through all the species beneath mans dignity, dieing, being born again and again into dumb animal suffering, countlessly, until the bloody moment when we are raised up to any position capable of responsibility beats the heck out of me, but if it is your pleasure to accept it then indeed feel free to do so. How many times can our lust for material enjoyment survive the loss of a spouse or a child, even as an animal?

It makes no sense to me, to my perhaps defective way of thinking and it presumes an awful and terrible vision of Krsna, a Krsna as a vengeful and wrathful God, and vengeful towards His devotees, punishing them so terribly.

Since Srila Prabhupada claimed otherwise that Krsna gave us this material nature for the purpose of fullfiling as best as could be this desire of ours to be the controller and enjoyer then I must presume that my addled brain has been seized by a more major wit, one without my gift for delinquency from the realms of pure reason and Goloka, and thus assume my theorizing to be correct.

To me then such a misconception of Krsna as to make of Him a terrible and vengeful God seems a carry over from our exile to a faith without the Grace of Sri Radha, to a faith without a Goddess, to a terrible mindset that is a product of our conditioning.

A religion without a Goddess is halfway to atheism someone has said. No doubt, but an overbalance of masculine values occasioned by the heavy usage of the left hemisphere of the brain makes the conditions worse. It also makes the acceptance at a Vatican meeting of 12 scholars representing the highest scientific body of the Catholic Church of evolution, with the statement “We are convinced that masses of evidence render the application of the concept of evolution to man and OTHER primates beyond serious dispute,” a forgone conclusion. As predictable as a problem of Newtonian mechanics.

As one domesticated primate to another then then GHari, What did you think that “In Hoc Signo Vinces” referred to? To the start of a loving relationship?

Constantine remained Pagan till his death bed some thirty years beyond his acceptance of Paulian Christianity as the state religion of Rome.

What in the heck do you think religion is, religion in the West anyway?

"In this sign I conquer."

Where does it imply..."and after that I surrender what I have conquered, or reliquish control?"

 

Well, religions certainly no danger, in the perception of those who teach Darwins theory of evolution (and his is only one theory of evolution, but it is the most useful one to those who view the essence of human value in purely materialist terms.)

 

If it had been percieved as a threat Srila Prabhupada would have been thrown into jail by the powers that be or murdered by them, poisoned perhaps (conditioning = sentient programs (in part).

 

Find the cost of freedom, Krsna consciousness is the worst threat to demoniac society that has ever been, and the worst threat to pseudo-religion. Krsna is within you, find Him, find Krsna, your going to need him. Become Krsna conscious and enlighten the world.

 

What price the soul Ghari? My soul, your soul, everybody’s soul? Incalcuable, so then what’s to be done about it?

 

Remove it.

 

What then the value of a human life, of any life without a soul? Dollars and cents, consumption and productivity.

 

Welcome to the New World View.

 

Oh, it's not so new, just go back a few centuries and read Adam Smith and Machiavelli, they sound so contemporary, and so damn familiar (and I used to think that I was autonomous below the paramarthic platform). Go back further, to the isle of Mona, further still. Three thousand years, four thousand years, all so contemporary

So Srila Prabhupada said of Christianity, (or of it’s heads rather)what WE have known since before the Burning Times, that it is our worst enemy. We fight spiritual wickedness in high places. Nothing new to us eh prabhu, not to you and I, for we were around during the last two decades, and we were around even before then, so we have some experience, we won't be fooled again eh.

Devotion isn’t compelled by what the head knows but what the heart prompts. Bhaktivinode Thakur has stated that when one worships his highest ideal one is worshiping Krsna. Srila Prabhupada was and will remain forever my highest ideal. Srila Prabhupada "as good as God" is God to me, and it is he that my heart compels me to serve, not Krsna. I am not Krsnas devotee.

 

Please forgive my touching upon so many subjects without full exposition of them, much lies behind them that is so, but they are not essential.

Foundational to my view of reality is an apparancy, which howsoever dim after so many many years since my fall down still provides other lumanation than this lurid glow affords me. Chant Hare Krsna, serve the devottees and that apparency will encompass you and you will be raised above the tallest mountain tops and you will see beyond the farthest star, all the way up to the point of a new beginning, when the soul awakens, and hopefully beyond. May Krsna hug you.

Hari bol

May Krsna protect you. Hari bol

 

 

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 11-07-2001).]

[Bhaktavasya 0]

 

Logic, smalljic

 

The word love

 

is conspicuous

 

by it's absence

 

 

[talasiga 0]

FAITH depends on FEELING

LITERALISM on the WORD

 

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

The word love

is conspicuous

by it's absence

 

 

The feeling love

is invisible

in its presence

 

 

[gHari 0]

Well actually, I am not convinced.

 

Lord Brahma has his form. It sure as hell did not evolve from no ape. The Vedas evidence the presence of human forms a million years back. I reserve judgement. It's not that pressing for me.

 

The scientists say they have put a chemical on some creatures and their offspring end up a 'different species' which can tolerate the chemical. This is the only physical evidence which I consider.

 

Our tiny sampling of past fossil history from a tiny portion of this one little corner of one little universe shows exactly what I would expect given the nature of the transmigration of the soul.

 

Leaping to conclusions may provide temporary elation of egos, but it is hardly satisfying.

 

I reserve judgement. But bottom line: it don't matter a whole helluvalot anyway. If scientists will be attracted to LOrd Caitanya because the Vedas present a more plausible cosmology and creation story, then whatever it takes is fine by me.

 

gHari

[darwin 0]

There is no need to get upset about the fact that our bodies evolved from ape bodies. We are not this body.

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by darwin:

There is no need to get upset about the fact that our bodies evolved from ape bodies. We are not this body.

Nirguna Brahman = Satchidananda = no attributes

Saguna Brahman = Satchidananda Vigraha = with attributes

 

IE:

Impersonal Supreme = Being Knowing Bliss = One

Personal Supreme = Being Knowing Bliss with Form (Body)= differentiation

 

Thus:

Personal Supreme MINUS Vigraha = Impersonal Supreme

(Satchidananda Vigraha MINUS Vigraha = Satchidananda)

 

Therefore:

We are not this body + <u>we are not without this body</u> = simultaneously

one + different

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-08-2001).]

[gHari 0]

Darwin,

 

Whence came the four-headed form of Lord Brahma?

 

gHari

[darwin 0]

talasiga,

What do you mean by "we are not without this body".

 

gHari,

I don't know. Maybe from 4 headed ape gods?

 

Everyone,

Thank you wonderful devotees for making this such a successful, active topic.

 

If you haven't done so already, please read the 2 articles I asked you to read in my first post.

 

The first article, Literalism vs Essence by Ramacandra das, is from the Chakra website. Ramacandra das seems to argue that he needs to blindly accept all of the Iskcon world view as true or he will begin a process of questioning everything and lose all faith.

 

The second article, On Leaving ISKCON, by Steven J. Gelberg (Subhananda das), 1991, has been on the internet for at least a couple of years. In it Steve Gelberg seems to describe how he has totally lost his faith and religion. Steve Gelberg was an ISKCON devotee for seventeen years, and most of that time he was a staff writer for the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

 

This is from Steve Gelberg's article. I strongly agree with some of what he says. I strongly disagree with maybe most of what he says. Here is some very good stuff from Steve Gelberg's article. I put his most excellent point in bold.:

 

"More important than difficulties with particular passages of scripture, however, was my growing sense that there was something unnatural, something artificial and forced, about the very idea of my having to completely supplant my own thoughts, reflections, insights, and intuitions about myself, the world, and my own experience, with a pre-packaged, pre-approved system of ideas and doctrines which, whatever its origins, has evolved through countless hands and been refracted through many minds and sensibilities through the centuries. I began to feel (though it took a long time to admit it to myself) that this is an unrealistic and unfair demand to be made upon any of us, however "imperfect" we may be, because it dishonors the integrity and particularity of who we are.

 

I came to feel that there is something ultimately impersonal about the notion that we are something utterly different from what we presently feel ourselves to be, and that the differences between us all (qualities of mind, behavioral style, etc.) are simply products of an unnatural, illusioned state -- that when we become who we are meant to be, we'll all conform to a particular, precise check-list of personality traits. And, further, that to evolve into this perfected state we must submit to the authority of certain authorized persons for radical re-education -- cutting ourselves off, more or less, from any ideas, influences or persons that might possibly remind us of the selves we mistakenly felt we were."

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by darwin (edited 11-08-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Bhaktivinode Thakur has stated that when one worships his highest ideal one is worshiping Krsna. (Janus)

 

If so, why one should criticize Osama Bin Laden and other fanatics like him? Isn’t he worshiping his highest ideal? Does this kind of worship is the cause of vidya?

 

In fact there is an ocean of difference between the instructions on God-knowledge given by sruti texts and those given by religious cultists.

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by darwin:

What do you mean by "we are not without this body".

 

As I formulated:

 

"We are not this body + <u>we are not without this body</u> = simultaneously

one + different"

 

where,

 

Undifferentiated Brahman (Nirguna) = Satchidananda, and

Differentiated Brahman (Saguna)= Satchidananda + Vigraha

 

then, conclusive formulation above reads as:

 

Undifferentiated Brahman + Vigraha = simultaneously one and different.

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

 

“The differences between us all (qualities of mind, behavioral style, etc.) are simply products of an unnatural, illusioned state -- that when we become who we are meant to be, we'll all conform to a particular, precise check-list of personality traits. And, further, that to evolve into this perfected state we must submit to the authority of certain authorized persons for radical re-education -- cutting ourselves off, more or less, from any ideas, influences or persons that might possibly remind us of the selves we mistakenly felt we were." (Steve Gelberg)

 

Actually Gelberg is describing the old Zoroastrian doctrine and its tentacles within Hinduism due a long contact with Islam and other Semitic philosophies. According to that doctrine the evil’s forces are always deluding and tempting souls trying to convey these souls to evil’s realm. If a soul under the spell of Satan wishes his liberation he needs a radical re-education under the rule of good’s forces. That is the only way to attain the Good’s realm. Nowadays Satan has been re-named as Maya. Heavenly forces are considered as some religious sect.

 

This doctrine has nothing to do with Vedas (srutis), that explain that no matter what kind of activities one may perform in this material world. When one attains vidya by Hari’s mercy and free will, he may attain liberation and another realm. This vidya cannot be attained by any religious activity and cannot be affected by any sin. It is Hari Himself who gives vidya and avidya as He likes. Hari is one without a second, therefore no other forces may transgress His absolute free will.

 

No matha-acarya has ever stressed that liberation is attained when the forces of good finally win over evil’s forces.

 

[Guest guest]

Talasigaji

 

We are not this body + we are not without this body = simultaneously one + different"

 

Satyaraj:

 

We are not this body + we are not without this body = sayujiya, or absolute union with Hari in the three phases of time, and even beyond the influence of time.

 

Is there something different than Hari?

 

How can one dissociate the Absolute? Is the impersonal (formless) aspect of Hari alien to His Personal aspect?

 

According to Baladeva, a very learned Gaudiya-acarya from the past, the realm of Goloka is Hari Himself and should be worshiped equally with the Lord (Vedanta-sutra 3.3.38).

 

There is no reason to consider the material realm as inferior than Hari, as Hari is its operative cause and He is always Absolute. According to Vedanta no one should disdain Hari’s lilas of creation.

 

[valaya 0]

Originally posted by talasiga:

FAITH depends on FEELING

LITERALISM on the WORD

 

The feeling love

is invisible

in its presence

 

 

manifesting in actions

rather than mere words

 

 

Inaction speaks louder than words! valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 11-08-2001).]

[gHari 0]

Well I read that excerpt from the guy looking for an excuse to bail. Lemme tell ya: we are who Prabhupada says we are. That fellow just enjoys the illusion a little too much.

[valaya 0]

This doctrine has nothing to do with Vedas (srutis), that explain that no matter what kind of activities one may perform in this material world. When one attains vidya by Hari’s mercy and free will, he may attain liberation and another realm. This vidya cannot be attained by any religious activity and cannot be affected by any sin. It is Hari Himself who gives vidya and avidya as He likes. Hari is one without a second, therefore no other forces may transgress His absolute free will.

No matha-acarya has ever stressed that liberation is attained when the forces of good finally win over evil’s forces.

 

I agree with all of the above, Satyaraja prabhu, however I'm thinking that individual free will must remain and that entails abandoning old attachments, in order to fully embrace the transformation enabled by the mercy of Hari. Thus for any change to fully become a new reality (realized), time is required for most of us.

 

While this is happening, faith in some form of His Divine Grace and a philosophical/religious concept of the higher reality can be extremely helpful, if not essential. Shouldn't we therefore be encouraging each other with our words and inspiring by our actions, rather than challenging individual conceptions by examining minute details? Surely these have little relevance to the overall process, since our ultimate success has already been assured by Sri Hari. Are we to become faith-builders or faith-destroyers?

 

In my view, the difficulty lies in doing this without demeaning others or denying their `religious` faith and attempting to interfere with individual free will. Whatever our belief system may be, all of us can become beacons of light through our relationships with each other. Although there are relatively few regular posters on these forums, they are viewed by many...

 

valaya RR

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Valayaji: In my view, the difficulty lies in doing this without demeaning others or denying their `religious` faith and attempting to interfere with individual free will.

 

Satyaraj: I fully agree with you.

 

Krsna Himself did not attempt to interfere Arjuna’s decision. Krsna has said: “Just abandon all sort of religion and fully surrender yourself to Me. I will protect you. Fear not!” (Gita 18.66). “This is a very confidential instruction indeed. You should not proselytize, be careful. (Gita 18.67)” “Now My dear Partha, have you heard My instructions with undivided attention? (Gita 18.72) “Reflect on that instruction properly, and then act as you wish.” (Gita 18.63)

 

Is Krsna to be considered as a faith-builder or as a faith-destroyer?

 

 

[gHari 0]

Darwin,

 

I guess your passion has you flying too fast to appreciate the significance of my previous question to you about Lord Brahma.

 

If Krsna is able to provide Lord Brahma, the first entity in the universe with a form, with no other prior forms or a progression of atomic chance mutations, then it seems quite plausible that He could also arrange any type of body that is required whenever it is required - even if that form is not to be currently found on that particular planet. Is this not logical? If it is, then we have yet another very plausible explanation of the fossil record. But then, my nickname isn't 'darwin'. It's .....

 

gHari

He's my Hero.

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by valaya:

Inaction speaks louder than words!

 

"Sometimes it is better to do nothing than to waste time " - ancient Oriental proverb

 

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

There is no reason to consider the material realm as inferior than Hari, as Hari is its operative cause and He is always Absolute. According to Vedanta no one should disdain Hari’s lilas of creation.

Bilkul ! Satyaraja Babaji !

Bilkul !

 

By Lord's Grace, one need not even go near any

Vedaantic text to know this.....

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 11-08-2001).]