The Origin of Jiva (jiva-tattva)

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A realized person cannot be called a 'soul' to begin with and is not bound to the body either. The Prarabdha-karma is for that body.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

So then you are basically saying all of Shankaracharya's writings were just caused by the non-existent prarabda karmas, created by the illusion of maya through his non-existent body.

 

So his teachings are the same material illusion we are supposed to become free from.

 

I am glad that was cleared up.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

What I meant was 'shankara' was liberated, and therefore whatever was seen to be acting within the avidya of material existence was nothing but an illusion created by prarabda karmas.

 

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So then you are basically saying all of Shankaracharya's writings were just caused by the non-existent prarabda karmas, created by the illusion of maya through his non-existent body. So his teachings are the same material illusion we are supposed to become free from. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

It is all non-existent to the Jnani, not for everyone as I have repaetd quite a few times above. But as you said, perhaps 'sane' people have trouble understanding such things. Sane people would be happier with a bedtime story of we will all goto Goloka and live happily everafter.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So let me know when you're going to lift Govardan Hill, shvu, I could use a little shelter from the storm. Also, there are a few demons around here that could use a good whacking, just drop on over anytime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

With due respect, your 'sane' humor is difficult to follow by 'insane' people [like me]. But I am sure other sane people here, appreciate your sense of humor.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

>> A realized person cannot be called a 'soul' to begin with and is not bound to the body either.

 

Mayavada thesis states that after moksa the individual existence disappears and one finally merges into the non-differentiated Brahman, vanishing forever.

 

Following this reasoning, Sankaracarya should not be considered as a jivan-mukta (liberated while living), and such condition would be impossible, since once one attains mukti immediately he should merge into Brahman forever. If he still have some parabdha-karma to be fulfilled, he cannot be considered as jivan-muktis, because parabdha-karma explicit a material body that is the result of past karma. If mukti means the cessation of all karma, how one may have a material body and at the same time be considered a mukta?

 

If we consider that mukti is only the cessation of individual ego and that after the stage of mukti the jiva retain his individual existence and identity, mukti cannot be considered the final attainment. So, jivas can take mukti only up to the limit of nirvana, annihilation of the individual existence.

 

We had posted in that thread many of sastric evidences stating that jiva or soul is eternal and is never annihilated in the liberated stage. Therefore nirvana, or annihilation of the self is impossible for something that is eternal. Therefore, the thesis of mukti as described by Sankara is merely extraneous goal. Something must be missing here.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mayavada thesis states that after moksa the individual existence disappears and one finally merges into the non-differentiated Brahman, vanishing forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Everything is right, except for the vanishing part. So cut down the last 2 words and it is perfect.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Following this reasoning, Sankaracarya should not be considered as a jivan-mukta (liberated while living), and such condition would be impossible, since once one attains mukti immediately he should

merge into Brahman forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

It does not mean that his body should suddenly vanish, does it?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If he still have some parabdha-karma to be fulfilled, he cannot be considered as jivan-muktis,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Not him, the body has to complete the work that it came for. Imagine that he has been delinked from his body, if that will help you. The rest of your post, has nothing significant worth commenting.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

>> It is all non-existent to the Jnani, not for everyone as I have repaetd quite a few times above

 

Sukadeva is considered as a jñani, and also the four Kumaras, and countless rsis and munis. None of them had described the transcendental realm as non-existence in all Vedic lore. In their samadhi, mystical trance, they describe a realm full of activities and sac-cid-ananda, eternal, full of knowledge and bliss.

 

Please, quote some sruti mantras were transcendence is described as an absolute non-existence.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

 

>> quote:

Mayavada thesis states that after moksa the individual existencedisappears and one finally merges into the non-differentiated Brahman, vanishing forever.

 

Everything is right, except for the vanishing part. So cut down the last 2 words and it is perfect.

 

Now we could not follow your intricate reasoning. If one does not 'vanish forever' in Brahman, you mean that there may be some ananda, one may have such feeling in that condition?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[amanpeter 0]

As a concept attempting communication with another concept, it's no wonder the whole concept is beyond conception.

[jijaji 0]

round n round the mulberry bush

the monkey chased the weasel....!

 

&)>

[jijaji 0]

POP...goes The weasel.

 

Q: Who is the weasel and who is the monkey?

 

 

;^)>

jijaji

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As a concept attempting communication with another concept, it's no wonder the whole concept is beyond conception.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Amen Aman.

 

Cheers

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now we could not follow your intricate reasoning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Oh....only now you are having trouble, are you? That means you had no problem following my logic until now. That is not so bad, SD.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If one does not 'vanish forever' in Brahman, you mean that there may be some ananda, one may have such feeling in that condition? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Here are some selections from the Svetasvatara Upanishad.

 

*****

 

From Chapter 1

 

The Lord, Isa, supports all this which has

been joined together the perishable and the

imperishable, the manifest, the effect and

the unmanifest, the cause. The same Lord,

the Supreme Self, devoid of Lordship,

becomes bound because of assuming the

attitude of the enjoyer. The jiva again

realizes the Supreme Self and is freed from

all fetters.

 

Prakriti is perishable. Hara, the Lord, is

immortal and imperishable. The non-dual

Supreme Self rules both prakriti and the

individual soul. Through constant meditation

on Him, by union with Him, by the knowledge

of identity with Him, one attains, in the

end, cessation of the illusion of phenomena.

 

The enjoyer, the objects of enjoyment, and

the Ruler the triad described by the knowers

of Brahman all this is nothing but Brahman.

This Brahman alone, which abides eternally

within the self, should be known. Beyond It,

truly, there is nothing else to be known.

 

From Chapter 2

 

Serve the eternal Brahman with the blessings

of the Sun, the cause of the universe. Be

absorbed, through samadhi, in the eternal

Brahman. Thus your work will not bind you.

 

As gold covered by earth shines bright after

it has been purified, so also the yogi,

realising the truth of Atman, becomes one

with the non-dual Atman, attains the goal,

and is free from grief.

 

*****

 

This is only the trailer. For the full thing, read/hear the Upanishads [which you have never done]. If you carefully, read these selections that I have posted without being biased, I trust you will find an answer to your question.

 

Cheers

 

[Ananga 0]

Recent evidence indicates that Sankaracarya was actually a Vaisnava. His advaita-vada is an integral component of acintya-bhedabheda doctrine.

[jijaji 0]

quote:

 

Recent evidence indicates that Sankaracarya was actually a Vaisnava. His advaita-vada is an integral component of acintya-bhedabheda doctrine.

 

Yea and Lao Tzu was really a moonie..!

 

 

;^)>

[Gauracandra 1]

I was going through some of my cabinets and found an old, beat up book I had called "The Strength Madhvaism". I figured I'd post some of its passages as relates to Madhva's critique of Advaita philosophy.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

At the beginning of his Anuvyakhyanam Madhva shows that Shakara's unreality doctrine, Mayavada, kills the Vedas also. Mithyatvamapi Bandhasya Tadvakyasya Agrato Bhavet (If all is unreal, that sentence which says so first becomes unreal.) An unreal sentence not related to three times cannot teach anything like the speech of a barren woman's son. The story of the King's evidence before the Magistrate comes to the mind. The Magistrate asked the King to swear as usual before the court and give his evidence in the criminal case. The King was angry. He said 'I am dead; my father has no children; all men are liars'. Such is Advaita. The Vedas are unreal having no time-connection. They were not created or manifested. They do not touch reality or teach the truth.

 

Owing to this conspicuous blunder, the Mayavada fails utterly and runs to the absurd excesses of making all pratyaksha, all reasoning, and all sacred scriptures unreal; and before all making itself unreal and therefore powerless to posit or prove or disprove anything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Gauracandra

[Maitreya 0]

shvu,you describe the continued activity seen in the body[and I suppose mind]of a jivanmukta as being due to the prarabda-karma.That would be found only in one seeking liberation from a bound state.

 

How would Mayavada philosophy then deal with avatars?

 

And what would motivate Their descent?

 

And upon descent does that not exhibit separation in oneness?

 

Hare Krishna

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here are some selections from the Svetasvatara Upanishad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Could you post the sanskrit, or at least the verse numbers when you quote. In the past a number of your translations were inacurate.

 

 

[animesh 0]

quote:

_________

If all is unreal, that sentence which says so first becomes unreal.

________

 

Interesting. If I write the sentence,

"All is unreal."

Then if the sentence is true, it becomes false. When it becomes false, then everything is not unreal. In that case, the sentence may be true. ???

 

What exactly do we mean when we use the word 'real' while dealing with scriptures? It seems that we call something that is not everlasting as unreal and borne out of 'illusion'.

[shvu 1]

 

 

If all is unreal, that sentence which says so first becomes unreal.

 

It is unreal to the Jnani and not to the others. If a person feels it is unreal to everyone, then everone including himself are unreal. But since he is around making statements, it shows he is not unreal and thus shows his logic is false.

 

Cheers

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How would Mayavada philosophy then deal with avatars?

 

And what would motivate Their descent?

 

And upon descent does that not exhibit separation in oneness? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

All the usual explanations, motives apply. One must remember that the world as we know is totally real until Mukti. That is the point of difference, if one can call it a point.

 

Cheers

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Could you post the sanskrit, or at least the verse numbers when you quote.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Will do it sometime today. The Svetasvatara version I have, does not carry verse numbers for some reason.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In the past a number of your translations were inacurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

An easy mistake to make. You are confusing me with Srila Prabhupada.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu 1]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Recent evidence indicates that Sankaracarya was actually a Vaisnava. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

An Advaitin does not differentiate between different forms. He is above sectarianism or in other words belongs to all sects.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Mayavadis state that after liberation jivas merge into Brahman and their individual identities disapear forever.

 

But savisesa-abheda doctrine has another understanding of the liberated state as follows:

The jiva in the liberated state

 

There are two types of jivas who are liberated from maya:

1) Nitya-mukta (eternally liberated) - those who have never been in the bondage of maya.

2) Baddha-mukta - those who were first bound by maya and who then became liberated by sadhana and bhajana.

 

And there are also two types of nitya-mukta jivas:

 

1) Aisvaryagata-nitya-mukta jivas - such as Garuda, are the associates of Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha and they are the particles of the effulgent rays emanating from the Mula-Sankarsana situated in Paravyoma.

2) Madhuryagata-nitya-mukta jivas - are the associates of Goloka Vrindavanatha Sri Krsna and they are manifested from Baladeva in Goloka Vrindavana.

 

There are three types of baddha-mukta jivas:

 

1) Brahmajyoti-gata - those jivas who perform sadhana with the objective of attaining the oneness of jiva and Brahman, who attain complete destruction in brahma-sayujya, or entering into the brahma-jyoti.

2) Aisvarya-gata - those whose sadhana is based on fondness for opulence attain salokya-mukti (residence in the same planet) with the parikaras of Vaikuntha.

3) Madhurya-gata - those whose sadhana is imbued with the love of sweetness, after being released from maya taste rasa of happiness derived from prema in dhamas suitable for that, such as Nitya-Vrindavana.

 

Those madhurya-gata jivas can relish madhurya-rasa that has two aspects:

1) Madhurya - where madhurya predominates, where Sri Krsna's form is gorgeously manifest.

2) Audarya - where Sri Gauranga's form reigns with splendor.

 

In Mula-Vrindavana there are two compartiments:

1) Krsna-pitha - where Sri Krsna's gana (attendants) are nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta parsadas who have attained madhurya-bhava predominated by madhurya.

2) Gaura-pitha - where Sri Gaura's gana are nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta parsadas who have attained madhurya-bhava predominated by audarya.

 

Some associates are, by disposition of their svarupa, present in both pithas, simultaneously. Other are present in one svarupa in one pitha, but not present in the other. Those who worship Gaura exclusively at the time of sadhana, render service only in Gaura-pitha at the time of perfection. Those who worship Krsna exclusively at time of sadhana render service in Krsna pitha at the time of perfection. And those who worship both svarupas, accept two bodies at the time of perfection and are present in both pithas simultaneously.

 

This is the supreme mystery of the acintya-bhedabehda of Gaura and Krsna.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

[Guest guest]

 

>> Will do it sometime today. The Svetasvatara version I have, does not carry verse numbers for some reason.

 

The reason is that this version should be a spelling book, or a primer meant for mayavadi missionaries. They imagine that if one intends to understand Advaita, one must first read the Upanishads. Otherwise it will not work.

 

But this is non-sense. Srutis are not to be read, they are to be heard from a tattva-vrtti source. The word 'sruti' itself means 'to be heard." Upanisads are talks that one may hear straight from the mouth of his guru, this is the literary translation of the word 'upanisad,' as you may known.

 

No place in all Vedic lore it is stated that one should at first read any sastra by his own account to attain a transcendental aim. In Sanskrit 'pada', means to read or to recite. Nowhere this instruction is given.

 

Sabdha-brahma, or transcendental sound is the only cause of real knowledge. If one is trying to attain transcendental knowledge by employing his fallible senses, this is called indriya-paratantra, the kind of knowledge that jivas may attain through their material senses, and it cannot give one the fruit of yoga.

 

Sabdha-brahma is the cause of the real understanding of all sastras.

 

If one reads Upanisads, Vedanta, and so on, and thereafter he reads the commentary of theses srutis made by Sankaracarya, he will be convinced that advaita-vada is the conclusion of all sastras. But if one is prudent and not a blind follower, and also read some other commentaries on srutis made by other acaryas from different philosophical schools, his mind will be in trouble. He will observe that there may be as many commentaries as humans beings.

 

So, an intelligent person will conclude in this way that the Truth cannot be attained only by reading commentaries and sastras. He will be convinced that one should follow the main instruction of all satras in this regard: "First of all try to find a bona fide master in this discipline and you should hear sastras from his mouth."

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa