kaisersose Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Discussion IS healthy but arguements are very poisonous. In India, there are so many religions, man-made communities, man-made castes, man-made sub- castes, man-made sects this that exist. Each one has views that are opposed to others. This only increases the tension within. People who can relate to that sect will resort to listening only to the glory of it. Why single out India? This is exactly how it is worldwide and everything, everywhere is man-made. We must avoid dvesha. If you are destined to know something, you will. By the same logic, if you are destined to experience dvesha, you will. You cannot avoid it. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 You people get the wrong the wrong end of the stick. 1) Did I ever say you got to ACCEPT others views? What worries me is the idealist who claims that such diversity is inherently poisonous. I said the such arguements are poisonous. You don't argue back, it doesn't mean you have accepted defeat. It means you are quite wise to have taken the right way. You at fault there. Everywhere. 2) You know how much hatred we have for each other in the same religion itself? The same sect and so many other divisions. When we abhor people so much in such a grassroot level, talk about peace. And talk about friendly relations with OTHER countries. (Rolls eyes) You keep your view to yourself and practice it with utmost belief. Why go battle with people ranting about Greatness. Do you think the GOD would approve doing this? Do YOU think the god would, god forbid, grant moksha to you for this sin? 3) Differences of opinion do not concern me. So you say you wouldn't give a damn to all those conflicts between religions, shaivites and vaishnavite and more in thenkalai and vadakalai. You know what? This kinda attitude STINKS. SO mean. SO selfish. Talk about whos greater. Talk about being "politically" correct. Correct in no world. Some, as you say, stay averse to him because of their karma. Perhaps they would know him later in the janma or god forbid again in the next janma. Its simple. And you, as i learn are a pessimist. I pray everyone does get moksha. Whats the harm? And yad bhavam, tat bhavati. As you think, SO you become. So you say everything is not predestined, eh? And shriman says he is not CONCERNED about others. You rock dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I don't wish to reveal what I belong to. But why ASK? Or are you again the one who is against thenkalai iyengars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 By the same logic, if you are destined to experience dvesha, you will. You cannot avoid it. By the same logic, Adiyen is here trying to remove that dvesha. And I hope I am communicating something cuz people(offended by me) in that excitement to counter, misunderstand and argue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Okay Sambya, I will stop it here. And PLEASE No one is no one's servant but GOD's. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 By the same logic, Adiyen is here trying to remove that dvesha. And I hope I am communicating something cuz people(offended by me) in that excitement to counter, misunderstand and argue. The misunderstandings and arguments are also destined. Do you see how it goes, once you try to selectively apply the destiny idea? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 "pre-destiny" is not scientific. Well thought-out "pre-planning" is scientific --which includes surveying and establishing a true foundation upon which to build a real edifice. But remember there are designers who dream and then there are builders who know-how-to-get the thing off-the-ground. If you go to Las Vegas to gamble: And you say, "I have a scientific method of determining the outcome of my 'Black-jack' Cards" [ie: "Card-Counting"] ---I would be lawfully expelled from the Gambling Hall. If, rather, I announced, "It is pre-destined that I win a fortune" the management will compliment you with free amenities --because that is the kind of sucker that is born every day that keeps the Gambling Hall in business. Also, if in the end, one losses all the wealth they arrived with . . . it was their destiny to do so! is that clear? Bhaktajan(?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 You at fault there. Everywhere. Adiyen, your disagreement with me is generating some tension, which is inherently poisonous as you yourself have already indicated. Please check your tendencies to express your difference of opinion. regards, Raghu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 So now when I learn you are entirely opposed to my views and are not budging, I wouldn't bother talking to about this now. And yeah you haven't answered my questions. Not that I am in want of them. Now I know what I Wanted to. Me happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Kaiserose to an large extent we are the crator/maker of our own destiny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adiyen Dasan Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 It may sound nice. But isn't in reality. it is the God who decides what should happen to us. That is based on your past karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 That is based on your past karma. yes but who does the karma? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 "pre-destiny" is not scientific. Well thought-out "pre-planning" is scientific --which includes surveying and establishing a true foundation upon which to build a real edifice. But remember there are designers who dream and then there are builders who know-how-to-get the thing off-the-ground. If you go to Las Vegas to gamble: And you say, "I have a scientific method of determining the outcome of my 'Black-jack' Cards" [ie: "Card-Counting"] ---I would be lawfully expelled from the Gambling Hall. If, rather, I announced, "It is pre-destined that I win a fortune" the management will compliment you with free amenities --because that is the kind of sucker that is born every day that keeps the Gambling Hall in business. Also, if in the end, one losses all the wealth they arrived with . . . it was their destiny to do so! is that clear? Bhaktajan(?) Science is the general enterprise of gaining true formal knowledge, which can be verified empirically through our senses, or otherwise in scientific experiments. Applied scientific knowledge is called technology. Science itself, however, is basically empirical – or experimental philosophy. The question whether everything is predestined, may be a (predestined) scientific question, that can be verified in principle, in (predestined) scientific experiments, or otherwise through (predestined) empirical observations. So when you say "pre-destiny is not scientific", you are correct only in the sense that there exists as yet no hard scientific evidence of "pre-destiny". You seem to believe in Karma. Then how do you reconcile the idea of Karma with "non-pre-destiny"? Personally I think that our consciousness (everything) is more or less free to experience reality as it desires. However, reality itself must be beyond our free will, in order to implement this meticulous rule of Karma. If Karma is true, I wouldn’t be surprised if ultimately 'everything' is predestined.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 The way I see it is: Since we are in a world of duality, there is "free-will" and there is "kamic reaction" both. Karma to me is how molecules bounce off eachother and similarly how vibrations bounce off each other, and/or how they transmute each other's paths. One is born [or one finds oneself in a given situation] with facility do acquire/accomplish something IMO, destiny [or "pre-destiny"] may be pre-destined BUT . . . it simply does not exist in any real way in any real place nor is it even recorded anywhere [vs the book of life that records ones actions as --read by Yamaraja--but that is in retrospect/after the fact/a post-review] --so, destiny is when past karma comes-back [good or bad] when circumstances allow for it to be manifest. It is like audio "echos" are destined to be heard when the enviroment is just right. It would seem that the law of Karma is unleashed only when IT has a path with least resistance to accomidate it. Karma (Karmic-retribution) seems to like to catch multi-birds with one stone when the birds that are due a stone in the head are clustered together --otherwise Karma (Karmic-retribution) is never in a rush. Karma is the flux of an ocean composed of bubbles that envelopes us and whose ripples [especially the vibrations that one causes oneself] bounce & rebound back off of ourselves eventually --but that occurs when all the factors (usual suspects) are in alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 And yeah you haven't answered my questions. Well, that was predestined, wasn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 people don`t have to be cruel and ruthless. a straight forward yes or no would suffice. people want some answers. like going inside a gov`t agency, the tax department. there were so many there asking questions from a corrupt employee. when my turn came all i wanted was an answer if i was qualified to be given a tax refund. neither did he said no or yes. he just stared at me. do i have to say this again that indeed money talks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 The way I see it is: Since we are in a world of duality, there is "free-will" and there is "kamic reaction" both. Karma to me is how molecules bounce off eachother and similarly how vibrations bounce off each other, and/or how they transmute each other's paths. One is born [or one finds oneself in a given situation] with facility do acquire/accomplish something IMO, destiny [or "pre-destiny"] may be pre-destined BUT . . . it simply does not exist in any real way in any real place nor is it even recorded anywhere [vs the book of life that records ones actions as --read by Yamaraja--but that is in retrospect/after the fact/a post-review] --so, destiny is when past karma comes-back [good or bad] when circumstances allow for it to be manifest. It is like audio "echos" are destined to be heard when the enviroment is just right. It would seem that the law of Karma is unleashed only when IT has a path with least resistance to accomidate it. Karma (Karmic-retribution) seems to like to catch multi-birds with one stone when the birds that are due a stone in the head are clustered together --otherwise Karma (Karmic-retribution) is never in a rush. Karma is the flux of an ocean composed of bubbles that envelopes us and whose ripples [especially the vibrations that one causes oneself] bounce & rebound back off of ourselves eventually --but that occurs when all the factors (usual suspects) are in alignment. "Karma means 'deed' or 'act' and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction that governs all life" (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma). You suggest that karma may be produced by our free will. Free will seems to imply that, as a result of its action, the state of the universe is altered. Furthermore, the alteration is not pre-determined or predictable. Nor is this alteration random: free will flows from our consciousness, not from statistical averages. It also seems irreversible, in the sense that it is somehow tied to the passage of time. Now, where do free will and consciousness come from? According to Vedic literature, they have the same origin as our entire universe: the one all pervading God. Actually, I think that our universe is our consciousness and our consciousness is part of God. And if free will flows from consciousness, then free will is part of God. Basically this means that individual free will is an illusion. The existence of free will implies the existence of time. At a particular moment in time we want something to be realized in the future, at which point our original wish will be in the past. However, the past and the future obviously do not exist. Only the present (including our present memories of the past) exists. Thus, the passage of time is an illusion and therefore free will is an illusion. As far as the results (or karmic reactions) of our (involuntary) actions (or karma) are concerned, I believe we agree that these are beyond free will. We do not control karmic reactions. And if (as argued) free will doesn’t exist, we also do not control our actions or karma. This ultimately means, that everything is pre-destined.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 primate and bhaktajan, why is it that it`s always you two debating. why do you always leave me out of the picture.three is no longer a crowd but a company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Well, we are still debating (I guess).. But you're welcome of course.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well, we are still debating (I guess).. But you're welcome of course.. what if i don`t meet your standards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 what if i don`t meet your standards? What are my standards? We had some nice discussions before, about 'conscious chaos' and other topics. And when it comes to scriptural knowledge, I’m just a beginner. So (although this is slightly off topic ) I would be happy if you (or anyone else) could point out where in Vedic literature it is implicitly or explicitly stated that 'free will' exists or, for that matter, that it doesn’t. I can only think of statements like: "God knows (is) the past the present and the future", or "God is everything and God is unchanging", or "God is the only doer", or "the apparent passage of time is the product of maya (illusion)", which all seem to imply that everything is pre-determined and that individual free will doesn’t exist. And, of course, the concept of karma seems to indicate that free will is an illusion. However, one can’t be sure. The simple fact that nowhere in the Vedic literature it is explicitly stated that free will doesn’t exist, might point in another direction. And although I have some personal theories about time and consciousness, supporting the idea that time (as in dynamic differential equations), causality (as in action reaction like dynamics) and, consequently, individual free will don’t exist, I wouldn’t argue that this holds true at the level of God. And if God has free will and we are part of God, the illusion of individual free will may well be God’s free will in disguise; just like our material world or our individual consciousness, may be absolute reality or God’s consciousness in disguise. It seems impossible to say whether this means we have free will or not. So please feel free to comment if you have any ideas.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 What are my standards? We had some nice discussions before, about 'conscious chaos' and other topics. And when it comes to scriptural knowledge, I’m just a beginner. So (although this is slightly off topic ) I would be happy if you (or anyone else) could point out where in Vedic literature it is implicitly or explicitly stated that 'free will' exists or, for that matter, that it doesn’t. I can only think of statements like: "God knows (is) the past the present and the future", or "God is everything and God is unchanging", or "God is the only doer", or "the apparent passage of time is the product of maya (illusion)", which all seem to imply that everything is pre-determined and that individual free will doesn’t exist. And, of course, the concept of karma seems to indicate that free will is an illusion. However, one can’t be sure. The simple fact that nowhere in the Vedic literature it is explicitly stated that free will doesn’t exist, might point in another direction. And although I have some personal theories about time and consciousness, supporting the idea that time (as in dynamic differential equations), causality (as in action reaction like dynamics) and, consequently, individual free will don’t exist, I wouldn’t argue that this holds true at the level of God. And if God has free will and we are part of God, the illusion of individual free will may well be God’s free will in disguise; just like our material world or our individual consciousness, may be absolute reality or God’s consciousness in disguise. It seems impossible to say whether this means we have free will or not. So please feel free to comment if you have any ideas.. what freewill means to me; when i finally decided to elope with my pregnant girlfriend(wife) instead of an abortion( i was still a 3rd year medical student). when i decided to be krsnah conscious despite of the opposition from my mother( a devout catholic). when i decided to continue smoking after suffering from a heart attack. whatever the consequences that may arise from these 3 examples i have to pay. no freewill no payment or reward. this is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 what freewill means to me; when i finally decided to elope with my pregnant girlfriend(wife) instead of an abortion( i was still a 3rd year medical student). when i decided to be krsnah conscious despite of the opposition from my mother( a devout catholic). when i decided to continue smoking after suffering from a heart attack. whatever the consequences that may arise from these 3 examples i have to pay. no freewill no payment or reward. this is my opinion. You may be right doc. However, free will implies absolute duality, because free will must be totally independent, or else it wouldn’t be free. Personally I don’t believe in absolute duality. And this is also not Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Maybe something like relative free will exists, which is 'inconceivably free and not free'. We might be free only within certain limits or restrictions. E.g., we may be free to choose any path, as long as it leads to a predestined goal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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