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More Shiva and Vishnu Discussion

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Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Ok then. Go accept Buddhism. It is spoken by the Lord, and He is the highest authority. And in Buddhism He has rejected the Vedas. Therefore you should also reject the Vedas. Because this philosophy is spoken by the Buddha, who is the Lord, whom you have indicated is the highest authority. )

 

We accept and reject certain concept based on circumstances time and place.

Our Karma determines our circumstance that we all are placed in.

As I said the Lord who dwells in our heart gives us the intelligent remembrance and forgetfulness according to our desires. I do not know why you keep harping on about rejecting the Vedas and accepting the Buddhism I have not desired it nor propagated the concept.

 

Re

(So on one hand, the Rudra mentioned in the shvetAshvataropaniShad can only be Shiva; to say he is Vishnu "is a joke." Yet at the same time there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu. But still, this Rudra in svhetAshvatara U. is Shiva and not Vishnu.

Well, that seems quite deep.)

 

There you go again twisting my words

 

Read my sentence I said Supreme Brahman, described here, as Rudra Shiva Sambhu residing on a mountain is any one other than Parvati pati, is a joke. Did I say; to say he is Vishnu “is a joke”?

 

Re

(So Vishnu can't have names like "Rudra" or "Siva?" These names are reserved for one devata and one devata alone?)

 

Supreme lord is one without a second, yet he has many personalities and names.the fact they are the same, but you can not mistake them to be Uma pati Vishnu or to be Laxmi pati Shiva.that would be sacrilege.

 

Chakra, gada padma and sankh dhari Vishnu has never been addressed as Rudra or Shiva nor the nagabhusana gangajata dhari Shiva been addressed as Vishnu if you know this I would like to see it.

Lord is not limited in any way he can have all the names, though.

 

Re

(So if my name is Raghu, it must follow from your philosophy that I am actually the famous patriarch of Raghu Vamsha? There is no possibility in your world view that there could be more than one being in this world named "Raghu?")

 

You are insulting my intelligent even though I may not be as intelligent as you are.

 

Re

(If there is no difference between Vishnu and Shiva, then why do you say that these names like "Rudra,Shiva,Shambhu," etc cannot also be names of Vishnu? You say they are the same Deity, yet you say that these names are names of Shiva only and not Vishnu.

This is contradictory.)

 

Just as father and husband at home is known different at high court as his highness or amongst friend differently so is this supreme lord in two different role are known differently.

 

Re

(Well, aren't you special? Anyway, just keep on chanting. The trouble starts only when you are put into a position where you must think. Then we are subjected to the inane confusion you call Hinduism... where Shiva and Vishnu are the same, but Shiva's names are only those of Shiva and not those of Vishnu.)

 

Anyway confusion is yours you have to explain, after all it is you who has said SHIVA, RUDRA SAMBHU HARA etc mentioned in the shvetAshvataropniShad as supreme Brahman is none other than names of Lord Vishnu.So please explain to all vaisnava and chant these names off Lord Hari.If you can not do this, than there is no need to discuss anymore, please do not try and fudge your answer like saivate might misconstrue etc.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

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Guest who quoted rigveda said, any statement in Bhagvat which is against sruti must be rejected.

If were to quote him Sveshvatra Upanishad where lord Shiva, Sambhu Rudra is described as supreme, he probably would say to me these are names of lord Vishnu also.

Problem is if I was to chant these names (Shiva, Sambhu, Rudra) of Lord Vishnu than I fall foul of Nama apradha .So be it,I have chanted his names since childhood alongside Krishna, Rama and Mata.

 

 

I do not think so. If one prays to Devas with the correct knowledge that they are really praying to the supreme Lord and then there is no offense. There is offense in chanting only when one thinks that these Devatas(includes Lord Shiva) and the Lord Visnu are one and the same.

 

As for the names in Shvetasvatara Upanishad you must read Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda. This sukta talks about Lord Visnu(mention of all creation supported in his navel) being beyond the Earth and heavens and as one who gives names to all othher devatas. Meaning that these are all HIS names. Also Visnusahasranama concurs with this. The combination of the shruti ie Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda and Visnusahasranama shows that all names actually are the names of Lord Visnu period.

 

The other factor is Rig Veda 7:40:5 which explicitly says that Lord Rudra gaines his power through worshipping Lord Visnu.

 

Combine this with Devi Sukta where Devi tells that SHE makes whomever she wants as BrahmA, Ugra(Name of Lord Shiva), Rsi or a wise man. In the next verse, SHE explicitly says that "I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion". SHE also mentions that her home is in oceans. This is Godddess Lakshmi without doubt. Note there is no mention Lord Visnu being overpowered here.

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Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(I do not think so. If one prays to Devas with the correct knowledge that they are really praying to the supreme Lord and then there is no offense.)

 

I do not understand, if one is praying to a particular devta that is because he/she is his/her worshipable deity, how can that be an offense? One way or the other.

 

Re

( There is offense in chanting only when one thinks that these Devatas(includes Lord Shiva) and the Lord Visnu are one and the same.)

These are two different personality of the same supreme lord.-----if one has taste to chant both the names how can this be an offense? If it is an offence where does in shruti is this mentioned?

 

Re

(As for the names in Shvetasvatara Upanishad you must read Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda.)

 

You are telling me in order to understand the above Upanishad I have to read Visyakarma Sukta, I might as well keep going in circle to understand one, and I read another and another and another.

 

Re

(This sukta talks about Lord Visnu(mention of all creation supported in his navel) being beyond the Earth and heavens and as one who gives names to all other devatas. Meaning that these are all HIS names.

Also Visnusahasranama concurs with this. The combination of the shruti ie Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda and Visnusahasranama shows that all names actually are the names of Lord Visnu period.)

 

So these are all his names so why do you not chant them?

Hang on a minute I can chant some of them without reservation but with some I have to think before I recite them, in my book this is hypocrisy, all the names off the Lord names are there to be chanted.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

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/images/graemlins/smile.gif jai shri krishna

 

currently in some temples (especially vishnu temples) priests honour only the persons who give money & sometimes priests honour only the persons they like.

 

they also reject also other persons. sometimes they dont even bother to give "sadari,tulasi & thirtha" to some bhakthas.

 

i too have got rejected/offended by such priests.

i think they are materialistic & have some ego. such character should be not in minds of a priest serving vishnu.

 

i havent seen such kind of priests in shiva temples.

 

vaishnavam gets bad name due to presence of such priests.

in this aspect "iskcon" stands genuine, because they dont offend anyone coming to pray to lord krishna. Hatsoff to ISKCON. i sometimes think ISKCON is a better way to approach GOD rather than approaching vishnu temples containing false priests.

 

if i had told anything offensive please forgive.

 

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

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yesterday in hanuman temple, a priest completely ignored me & didnt even bothered to give me "Thulasi,sadari&thirtha" to me.

 

who is he to decide or ignore ? he is thinking he has rights to reject / accept a particular person to give prasada.

 

due to the above incident i got really hurt.

 

/images/graemlins/frown.gif I approached shiva & cried.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai shri krishna

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So these are all his names so why do you not chant them?

 

 

 

We would, but for the fact that clueless, non-vedAntic Hindus like yourself would misinterpret the worship directed at Lord Vishnu as being instead directed to Lord Shiva.

 

 

You are telling me in order to understand the above Upanishad I have to read Visyakarma Sukta, I might as well keep going in circle to understand one, and I read another and another and another.

 

 

 

You're right. Your method is better. Just pick and choose what you like and ignore the rest.

 

 

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We know that Vedas came from God.

 

Where does Upanishads come from ? does it come from God ? or is it written by some sages ?

 

Which should be taken as superior -> Vedas or Upanishads ?

 

Please tell. i am ignorant. thats why i am asking.

 

 

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Even before getting reply, l learnt from internet that upanishads & vedas.

 

Anyway i am gonna start mega thread ie., Enclyopedia of Vedas. This thread will illustrate vedas, upanishads, bhagavath gita & importance of puranas. It will come with translation.

 

Some of my enclyopedias has attracted many. I thank you the visitors of my enclyopedia threads for encouraging me.

 

ALSO I WANT TO THANK ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM FOR UNDERSTANDING ME & SUPPORTING ME FOR MY ENCYLOPEDIA THREADS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH ADMINISTRATOR.

 

Meanwhile i am closing one of my enclyopedia thread -> Enclyopedia of Rudra Sampradayam. Closing means i will not update it as i cant get info regarding this sampradaya.

 

My Enclyopedia threads of other sampradayams will continue as usual with update of every 3 or 4 days.

 

I think My future new "enclyopedia of vedas" becomes success.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(We would, but for the fact that clueless, non-vedAntic Hindus like yourself would misinterpret the worship directed at Lord Vishnu as being instead directed to Lord Shiva.)

 

What a copout. I want chant these transcendental names of the lord because what others might think? Where is the conviction in your faith?

 

I am still waiting for shruti pramana on nama apradha

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

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What a copout. I want chant these transcendental names of the lord because what others might think? Where is the conviction in your faith?

 

 

 

That is not a copout. If you have enough strength to remember Vishnu even after repeatedly chanting Rudra Rudra Rudra, then all glories, but personally my taste and so also of the others is Krishna, Govinda and so on.

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Rig Veda :

 

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH

vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat || RV 7.40.5 ||

 

This makes it abundantly clear that Rudra derives his power from worship of Vishnu!

 

Sama Veda :

 

This offering to-day, O Sipivishta, I, skilled in rules, extol, to thee the noble. Yea, I, the poor and weak, praise thee, the mighty vishnu, who dwellest in the realm beyond this region.

 

Bhagavath Gita :

Bhagavath Gita is considered to be superior than the Upanishads since it contains essence of all 108 upanishads.

In Gita, we can clearly see Lord Krishna is supreme.

 

Upanishads :-

Mandukya Upanishad :

1 Hari is AUM. AUM is all that is here. This is what we hear about AUM: The past, the present and the future are AUM, And That beyond these three is also AUM.

2 Brahman is indeed all this. This self in us is also Brahman. And this self has four planes.

3 Vaisvanara is the first stage. Wakeful, outwardly conscious, With seven limbs and nineteen mouths, He is the enjoyer of the gross objects.

4 Taijasa is the second stage. Dreaming, inwardly conscious, With seven limbs and nineteen mouths, He is the enjoyer of the subtle objects.

5 In deep sleep, seeking no desires, Dreaming no dreams, unified into The mass of greater consciousness, Full of bliss, enjoying bliss only, Face turned towards Chetasa, Is Pragna the third stage.

6 This is the Master of All, the Omniscient, The Inmost Dweller and source of Creation and destruction of all beings.

7 Conscious neither internally nor externally, Nor either ways, neither ordinary consciousness, Nor the greater and the deeper consciousness, Invisible, otherworldly, incomprehensible, Without qualities, beyond all thoughts, Indescribable, the unified soul in essence, Peaceful, auspicious, without duality, Is the fourth stage, that self, that is to be known.

8 The same Atman is AUM among the syllables, Each syllable in the word AUM is a stage. They Are the letter A, the letter U and the letter M.

9 The wakeful Vaishwanara is the First letter "A", being the first letter and All pervasive. He who knows thus realizes All his desires and becomes foremost too.

10 The dreaming Taizasa is the second Letter "U", being superior and situated in The middle. He who knows thus attains Knowledge and children equally and none In his family would be ignorant of Brahman

11 In the world of deep sleep, Pragna, is the Third letter "M", being the limit and the end of All diversity. He who knows thus is free from All diversity and becomes one with the Self.

 

Puranas :

Veda Vyasa says that :

Vaishnavam Naaradeeyam Cha thatha Bhagavatham Shubham Garudam Cha thatha Paadmam Varaaham Shubha Darshane ShaDeThani Puranaani Saathvikaani Mathaani why Bramhaandam BrahmaVaivartham Maarkaandaiyam thathaiva cha BhavidhshyadhVaamanam Braamham Raajasaani Nibhodhamae Maathsyam Kourmam thatha Laingam Shaivam Skaandam Thathaiva cha AagnaeYam cha ShaDethani Thaamasa NirayaPradaha

 

which means that there are six puranas that are Saathvik. These puranas are Vishnu, Naarada, Bhaagavatha, Garuda, Padma and Varaaha. The Raajasik puranas are Bramhaanda, BramhaVaivartha, Maarkaandaeya, Bhavishyothara, Vaamana and Bramha. The six thamasik puranas are Maathsya, Kourma, Lainga, Skaanda, Shaiva and Aagnaeya.

 

Only Saathvik means goodness. In all sathvic puranas "Lord Vishnu superiority" is clearly seen.

 

So Except Svetaavatars Upanishad, everything favors "Lord Vishnu" only.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

 

 

 

 

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Hi, Its not buffalo.

Its called Nandi ( a bull in fact).

I think you dont the difference between a Bull and a buffalo.

 

Buffalo is a black, fat, animal and Yama drives it.

 

So dont get confused and spread hatred on Siva.

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Jai Ganesh

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(That is not a copout. If you have enough strength to remember Vishnu even after repeatedly chanting Rudra Rudra Rudra, then all glories, but personally my taste and so also of the others is Krishna, Govinda and so on.)

 

 

 

 

First you want chant these names because what others might think

Now your reason is, we have no taste for these names.

Or we have to think very hard it is Vishnu, I am calling to when I chant Rudra although this is also his name.

In other words you have no faith in these names, Rudra Sambhu Shiva Hara you so boldly claimed to be names of Vishnu

You see when a child calls out to his parents, he/she does not even know their names but they would respond.

Ajamil called out to his son for help, and we all know the story I think.

Chant the names of the lord, which ever you have taste for, that is your choice.

 

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

 

 

 

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the following to me seems to say that siva is also parabrahma:

 

http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_upanishhat/rudrahridaya.itx

 

vaamapaarshve umaa devii vishhNuH somo.api te trayaH .

yaa umaa saa svaya.n vishhNuryo vishhNuH sa hi chandramaaH .. 5..

ye namasyanti govinda.n te namasyanti sha~Nkaram.h .

ye.archayanti hariM bhaktyaa te.archayanti vR^ishhadhvajam.h .. 6..

ye dvishhanti viruupaaksha.n te dvishhanti janaardanam.h .

ye rudra.n naabhijaananti te na jaananti keshavam.h .. 7..

 

 

translation from http://www.celextel.org/ebooks/upanishads/rudra_hridaya_upanishad.htm

 

Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself

 

 

 

http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_upanishhat/kaivalya.itx

 

umaasahaayaM parameshvaraM prabhuM trilochanaM niilakaNThaM prashaantam.h .

dhyaatvaa munirgachchhati bhuutayoniM samastasaakshiM tamasaH parastaat.h .. 7..

sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaH svaraaT.h .

sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH .. 8..

sa eva sarvaM yadbhuutaM yachcha bhavyaM sanaatanam.h .

GYaatvaa taM mR^ityumatyeti naanyaH panthaa vimuktaye .. 9..

 

 

translation from http://www.celextel.org/ebooks/upanishads/kaivalya_upanishad.htm

 

7. Brahmaji said: Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

 

8. He is Brahma, He is Shiva, He is Indra, He is the Immutable, the Supreme, the Self-luminous, He alone is Vishnu, He is Prana, He is Time and Fire, He is the Moon.

 

9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom

 

 

 

http://bhagavatam.net/4/6/42

 

brahmovAca

jAne tvAm IzaM vizvasya

jagato yoni-bIjayoH

zakteH zivasya ca paraM

yat tad brahma nirantaram

 

Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Siva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the <font color="brown">Supreme Brahman</font color> beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way

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jndas: We should keep in mind that Lord Shiva and his expansions, such as the Rudras, etc., are in many ways different. Thus an activity performed by one of his lower level expansions is not a disqualification on his part

 

 

can you explain more please

 

 

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Garuda Purana 3.18.21

 

His expansion is Sukadeva Gosvami, the celebrated narrator of the Srimad Bhagavatam: "Suka, the son of Vyasa, who had been influenced by Vayu, was the incarnation of Rudra. He was born for the spread of knowledge in the world.

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upanishads you mentioned are upanishads of later days. they are not authentic.

 

Moreover brahma's speech in bhagavatham is purely misunderstood by you.

 

 

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In Bhagvat 8.7 21-35 Prajapati are praying to Lord Shiva as supreme Lord...

Shridhar Swami (whose commentary on Bhagvat is accepted by Shree Chetanya maha Prabhu) said, those who see the two personalities as different, are simply engaged in useless discourse

 

 

would you happen to have his commentary on bhagvat 4.6.42

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First you want chant these names because what others might think

Now your reason is, we have no taste for these names.

Or we have to think very hard it is Vishnu, I am calling to when I chant Rudra although this is also his name.

In other words you have no faith in these names, Rudra Sambhu Shiva Hara you so boldly claimed to be names of Vishnu

You see when a child calls out to his parents, he/she does not even know their names but they would respond.

Ajamil called out to his son for help, and we all know the story I think.

Chant the names of the lord, which ever you have taste for, that is your choice.

 

 

 

Every letter is the name of Vishnu, so what! Most people identify Vishnu with his names like Krishna, Narayana etc. It is not that if I have taste for the name "Krishna" that I disbelieve that "Rudra" is also a name of Vishnu! OK

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Jai Ganesh

 

Re

 

(would you happen to have his commentary on bhagvat 4.6.42 )

 

Sorry Prabhu I have tried very hard to get a copy of Bhagvat, commentary by Sridhar Swami but no luck so far

 

Jai Shree Krishna

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Dear Friend,

 

I would like to have the full composition from which this has been taken:

 

"giri rAja sutAnvita vAma tanuM

tanu nindita rAGjita koti vidhum

vidhi viSNu ziro dhRta . yugaM

praNamAmi zivaM ziva kalpa tarum"

 

My Odissi danceer friend needs this for creating a new dance item on it.

 

With sincere regards,

 

DP

--

Dr DP Dash

Associate Professor

Xavier Institute of Management, Xavier Square

Bhubaneswar 751013, INDIA

 

Tel: +91-(0)674-230 0007 (XIMB PBX No)

Fax: +91-(0)674-230 0995

My E-mail: dpdash@ximb.ac.in, professor_dash@.co.uk

My Homepage: http://home.ximb.ac.in/~dpdash

 

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I am not as knowledgeable as all of or I don't have much knowledge but is these discussions are about religion and GOD? Atleast when we discuss these things, don't we have to check our language? Why do we have religion? To make us a better person. Is it not?

 

I feel instead of making into heated arguments, I feel it should be exchange of knowledge to help each other out to become better people.

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