What is the "Self" in self realization?

[Sadartha 0]

I have heard a lot about self-realization.

 

but what is the "Self" in 'Self-realization'?

 

Thank You

 

Om Namah Shivaya

[Samkhya 0]

For me the self is that part of the person which is the witness of external and internal (such as feelings) events. This part of the person is spiritual (that is: not physical), eternal, and is wrongly identified with material things, hence its state of bondage. The goal of the existence is moksha, the liberation of the self from matter to reach a state of inner peace.

[narayanadasa 0]

Jai Sriman Narayana:

 

Self is the soul and when you say self-realization (atma saakshaatkaara) it means to realize that you are not the body (hands, legs, eyes, stomach, mind etc) but the soul. When you have realized the self you have only crossed the 1st step in spiritual development. The second and most important step is paramatma saakshaatkaara) i.e Super-Soul / God realization.

 

Hope this helps.

[Guest guest]

WHOO HOO!!

GOOD QUESTION!!!

 

the Self is man's true nature. when the question arises... "What is this 'I'?" the right answer is what vedantins term: the self.

 

we are born into this world out of ignorance. That ignorance is called avidya... its ignorance of the Self or ignorance of Truth. this ignorance of the infinite bliss that lies inside is why desires crop up... is why we drown in this world of delusion... is why we suffering... ignorance creates desire which creates action which creates karma... and so we are born and born again...

 

your question is the most perfect question in the world b/c the answer and the realization of the answer will liberate you from suffering. it will liberate you from the cycle of birth and death. u should feel very good for asking.

 

ok so..

the self.

its a very nice thing to think about... it makes me giggle..

its very very nice..

the self, as i already said, is the human being's true nature. mans' true nature.

these days ppl in general, who are under the delusion of avidya feel themselves to be 1. the body, 2. the ego, 3. the mind. the combination of these 3 creates the word everyone today uses: "I". - the body, ego, mind combination creates what Vedantins call "the person complex".

When someone truly enquires into his true nature this "person complex" dissappears and the self only remains.

 

this brings us to the question - what is the self, your question Sadartha (btw i like your name - seeker of truth, hehehehe).

 

the Self is nothing but pure consciousness. the self is the experiencer. not the experienced: i.e. - the presence in the head called mind which this pure consciousness misidentifies with. the self is the impersonal unaffected observer of everything of everything ever. the mind, the ego, the body, the physical, the subtle, everything, the Self experiences and yet remains unaffected.

 

this self can never be known... it is beyond the mind, the mind cannot grasp it.. .do not try to understand it's glory... just try to be it, just try to live it.

 

the nature of the self as revealed by the scriptures and the holy sages is "satchitananda" - sat being Absolute Truth or Reality... always existing, never born, never dying, changless, the only Real thing there is. chit being consciousness, pure awareness even. ananda being the source of all bliss... bliss itself.

 

this is the eternal 100% happiness that everyone is trying to get... but no one can get it out in the world. they must realize the falliability of the world and realize the true self as being limitless bliss.

 

and this.. all this... is not a belief, not a special system. it can be found easily by reason, by logic, by enquiry.

 

isnt that cool?

 

there is LOTS about the self, but what the self truly is cannot be said..

i could go ON AND ON AND ON about it.. but just remember... pure consciousness... unaffected, satchitananda.

 

one with Brahman.

 

read Ramakrishna, he is very nice at explaining it... he has realized it thru all paths in hinduism. hes very nice.

also then if you are mad hardcore, then read Ramana Maharishi... hes more jnani, what you're looking for..

 

and yes... Om NAMAH SHIVAYA!

[Guest guest]

Dear (Ravi),

 

"the self is the impersonal unaffected observer of everything of everything ever."

 

The self that you refer to here is the Supersoul (Paramatman), or the seer of everyhting. As individual souls, we are conscious of that within our own field of influence. The Supersoul accompanies the soul and allows the soul to fulfil it's desires. This Supersoul can be impersonal and personal. The form of the Supersoul is within our heart - form indicating personality. That Supersoul also pervades all (which is it's impersonal aspect).

 

"there is LOTS about the self, but what the self truly is cannot be said.."

 

Although the scriptures define the soul (self) as the eternal servant of God.

 

"one with Brahman."

 

...is the preliminary stage of self-realization. One realises what he is not (i.e. not material body/mind/intelligence/false ego). Next stage is to realise what I am (the soul), part of the Supersoul (Paramatman). Next stage is to understand what is that ego's business, constitutional nature, i.e. what does it do? Answer is that the soul serves God (Bhagavan), the form of God that is the source of Paramatman. If we do everything as a service to God, then we understand what is the self.

 

"read Ramakrishna, he is very nice at explaining it... he has realized it thru all paths in hinduism. hes very nice.

also then if you are mad hardcore, then read Ramana Maharishi... hes more jnani, what you're looking for."

 

I would warn against reading Ramakrishna or Ramana Maharishi since they do not follow a spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from Krishna.

 

There are four lines of disciplic succession. Each line has a source

 

1. Lord Brahma, to Madhva and on - recent acharya is Shrila Prabhupada

2. Lord Shiva - recent acharya is Vishnuswami

3. The Kumaras - recent acharya Nimbarka

4. Lakshmidevi - recent acharya is Ramanuja

 

ISKCON comes from the Brahma sampradaya and the acharya is Shrila Prabhupada. His teachings can be read at www.prabhupadavani.org

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

aw... visithadvaita... how cute...

#2 in the progression..

1 is where the person is dvaita,

2 is where the person is visitadvaita

3 is where the person is advaita...

 

here is a very nice quote for you:

 

A poor devotee points to the sky and says, "God is up there." An average devotee says, "God dwells in the heart as the Inner Master." The best devotee says, "God alone Is and everything I perceive is a form of God."

~~Ramakrishna

 

Ramakrishna, who pacticed all forms of bhakti and realized God thru all of them, was ofcourse #3. did you know that he even dressed up as a Gopi for months and months so he could feel what Radha felt for Krishna? and not only that he also went thru all other paths of Hinduism (i.e. karma yoga, hatha yoga, raja yoga, jnana yoga, tantra, anything else?). then he also went to other religions and realized the self thru them also! for experiencing all the mahabhavas and for staying in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi for 6 MONTHS and for realizing the Self only in ONE DAY!!! he is considered an incarnation, just like Chaitanya and Radha. there are lots more reasons why hes considered it, but i do not remember them all...

so do not knock Ramakrishna...

the disciple succession is only form the Vaisnanvas.. this disciples succession is from the RISHIS themselves!

 

there cannot be but advaita... if there is any dualism there is doubt, there is fear, there is confusion... only advaita can be supported by logical science and reasoning... there is no need for belief in advaita, there is only experience of the truths it teaches.

 

its really funny... iskcon... how many holes they have... just like christianity.. its ok... i guess god has decreed it to be so...

[Guest guest]

you say god is paramatma, and human is atma.

that is ok for the beginning stages of spirituality.. but as the person goes on, he thinks of this: (what i thought about)...

 

God is infinite in every single way possible. he is all-pervading... all knowing etc etc etc...

 

this god concept thus cannot really be held in the mind, but it can be thought of like this: god is an infinite, limitless, dimensionless ocean. an ocean that goes in all directions (up down left right) forever and ever and there is no limit. there is no sky, no beach, no nothing, just this ocean.

 

so where is atma in this ocean? how can atma ever be OUTSIDE this ocean? how can atma be separate from paramatma? doesnt make sense does it..?

hahah

 

therefore atma is paramatma. therefore atma is Brahman. therefore atma is God.

[Guest guest]

hm... more thinking i've done in the past and here is one more thing:

 

In Prabhupadas gita verse 7.19.... cant quote his translation, but i think that it is a wrong translation of what Krishna said... that jnanis and yogis have to go thru many births to come to level of bhakti.

 

it doesnt make sense because the jnanis, after realizing the truth that the mind and ego are false and unreal, after realizing their true nature to be nothing other than pure Awareness, have to come back and use those false things (ego and mind) to love Krsna. Using the ego and mind to love and think about krsna after realizing that truly these things are actually unreal and false, doesnt make sense. after purifying and destroying ego, they must go back and reuse said destroyed ego, in another life, to love Krishna. They must go back and use said destroyed mind, in another life, to love Krishna.

 

understand what i'm trying to say?

 

the jnanis, in one life, after realizing the truth that the ego is false and thus destroying it, have to come back thru many lifetimes, and use this false/unreal/destroyed ego, to love Krishna.

 

The fact that they must misidentify AGAIN with ego and mind to love Krishna doesnt make sense.

 

even the ISKCON says "you are not body". but they stop there. they do not say, "you are not ego and you are not mind, you are consciousness." if they say that, then people will say, "how can the Pure Consciousness which I truly am, love Krishna."

 

so it does not make sense.

[Guest guest]

for this Pure Consciousness - this Self is what is called Pure Being. do you know what "Being" is? "Just Being"? can you picture that in your head? no. just being. that is your true nature. that is the Self in selfrealization. Pure Being. no contiminated restless mind thinking thoughts, no flase ego being stupid, just Pure Being.

 

can this limitless, infintely blissful Chit, which has been manifested as this world and universe and which manifests as God... this Chit... which is your true nature... this one without a second Absolute Truth... can it ever love God? what is bhakti to it? it is Pure Consciousness... realizing it is the goal of all life... Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi, in which the self is realized... sigh...

 

i love this subject... just need to get out of my parents grasp, go to college, and BE FREE!!! (with my bestest guruji!!)

 

:-)

 

the Self.

 

Silence.

 

Brahman.

 

Paramatma.

 

God.

 

Bhagavan.

 

non-dual, one-with-out-a-second, absolute Truth.

 

the source of all bliss.

 

the experiencer, the experience, the experienced.

 

Satchitananda...

 

Truth...

 

Om Namah Shivaya

[Guest guest]

Dear (Ravi),

 

"A poor devotee points to the sky and says, "God is up there." An average devotee says, "God dwells in the heart as the Inner Master." The best devotee says, "God alone Is and everything I perceive is a form of God."

~~Ramakrishna"

 

Well who am I going to listen to - Ramakrishna or Krishna Himself? Krishna says the devotee is the best yogi, for he constantly worships Krishna with faith and devotion. If one perceives everything as a form of God then you must be God - then why can you not stop yourself from going to the bathroom every day?

 

"Ramakrishna, who pacticed all forms of bhakti and realized God thru all of them, was ofcourse #3. did you know that he even dressed up as a Gopi for months and months so he could feel what Radha felt for Krishna?"

 

He is not authorised, because he is not from any of the four disciplic successions authorised by the vedas.

 

"and not only that he also went thru all other paths of Hinduism (i.e. karma yoga, hatha yoga, raja yoga, jnana yoga, tantra, anything else?). then he also went to other religions and realized the self thru them also!"

 

That is what you think...the determination of one who is intelligent is resolute and single-minded - one lacking intelligence's endeavours are many-branched (Bhagavad-gita)

 

"for experiencing all the mahabhavas and for staying in the state of nirvikalpa samadhi for 6 MONTHS and for realizing the Self only in ONE DAY!!!"

 

The mahabhavas are not cheap trance-like emotions. If Ramakrishna wanted to practice bhakti he should have accepted a spiritual master from one of the four disciplic successions delineated above - otherwise he is not authorised by Krishna (Gita says one must approach a bona fide spiritual master coming in unbroken disciplic succession).

 

"he is considered an incarnation, just like Chaitanya and Radha."

 

Incarnations are predicted in scripture. Ramakrishna was not.

 

"this disciples succession is from the RISHIS themselves"

 

Which rishi? This would mean that any fool could claim to be coming in disciplic succession randomly. (just like Ramakrishna claimed)

 

"there cannot be but advaita..."

 

Achintya-beda-beda-tattva is the philosophy where Krishna is both one with and independent of His creation. Inconceivable oneness and difference. The philosophy is flawless.

 

 

"if there is any dualism there is doubt, there is fear, there is confusion..."

 

Pure dualism is wrong. Pure monism is wrong. Inconceivable oneness and difference is both clear-cut, doubtless and fearless.

 

"only advaita can be supported by logical science and reasoning... "

 

there is no logic in saying God becomes subject to illusion...

 

"there is no need for belief in advaita, there is only experience of the truths it teaches."

 

That experience is the same illusion that the advaitin thinks he has become liberated from.

 

"its really funny... iskcon... how many holes they have... just like christianity.. its ok... i guess god has decreed it to be so... "

 

What holes? You have not mentioned any holes...

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

Dear (Ravi),

 

"god is an infinite, limitless, dimensionless ocean. an ocean that goes in all directions (up down left right) forever and ever and there is no limit. there is no sky, no beach, no nothing, just this ocean."

 

Yes, well if God is limitless and dimensionless then he cannot be an ocean. No matter how vast an ocean is, it still has limits, namely the land. Therefore the analogy you use is flawed.

 

"so where is atma in this ocean?"

 

Your whole analogy is flawed. God cannot be compared to an ocean.

 

"how can atma ever be OUTSIDE this ocean?"

 

The soul is forever united with the Lord in love and devotion. Even with your analogy, the atman can be something floating in the ocean - it is part of the ocean, but still has individuality.

 

"how can atma be separate from paramatma?"

 

Atma is an eternal part and parcel of Parabrahman. Just like a the molecules of the Sun rays are part of the Sun but still are individual molecules.

 

"therefore atma is paramatma. therefore atma is Brahman. therefore atma is God."

 

No - atman is forever made up of the same elements as Brahman, namely sat cit and ananda. Parabrahman has these qualities infinite degree. The soul has it to limited degree.

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

Dear (Ravi),

 

"In Prabhupadas gita verse 7.19.... cant quote his translation, but i think that it is a wrong translation of what Krishna said... that jnanis and yogis have to go thru many births to come to level of bhakti."

 

The verse:

 

bahūnāḿ janmanām ante

 

jñānavān māḿ prapadyate

 

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

 

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

bahūnām — many; janmanām — repeated births and deaths; ante — after; jñāna-vān — one who is in full knowledge; mām — unto Me; prapadyate — surrenders; vāsudevaḥ — the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa; sarvam — everything; iti — thus; saḥ — that; mahā-ātmā — great soul; su-durlabhaḥ — very rare to see.

 

TRANSLATION

 

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

Please let me know which part of the translation you have a problem with. There seems to be no mistranslation.

 

"it doesnt make sense because the jnanis, after realizing the truth that the mind and ego are false and unreal, after realizing their true nature to be nothing other than pure Awareness, have to come back and use those false things (ego and mind) to love Krsna. Using the ego and mind to love and think about krsna after realizing that truly these things are actually unreal and false, doesnt make sense. after purifying and destroying ego, they must go back and reuse said destroyed ego, in another life, to love Krishna. They must go back and use said destroyed mind, in another life, to love Krishna."

 

The jnani sheds his mind and false ego and is then situated in Brahman. However, the soul that has reached that stage experiences only sat and cit (eternity and knowledge) without bliss. Thus, in order to attain real bliss, the jnani returns to the material world and becomes fully self-realised by realising his identity as a servant of Krishna. Pure awareness is somewhat incomplete until one realises what that awareness is directed to - what am I to be aware of? The fact that I am an eternal servant of Krishna. When the jnani is back in the material world, he utilises his mind and intelligence in service to Krishna and so the mind and intelligence become spiritualised. Then if he is in consciousness of Krishna when he leaves his body, he never returns back - he goes straight to Krishna.

 

"the jnanis, in one life, after realizing the truth that the ego is false and thus destroying it, have to come back thru many lifetimes, and use this false/unreal/destroyed ego, to love Krishna."

 

The destruction of the false ego is one thing, but one has to realise his real identity - that the jnani fails to do, so after many births he realises that the REAL identity is to be a servant of Krishna.

 

"The fact that they must misidentify AGAIN with ego and mind to love Krishna doesnt make sense"

 

The problem is they didn't fully realise their eternal identity in the first place - that is why they have to accept false ego again - because they are unsatisfield without bliss...

 

"even the ISKCON says "you are not body". but they stop there. they do not say, "you are not ego and you are not mind, you are consciousness." if they say that, then people will say, "how can the Pure Consciousness which I truly am, love Krishna."

 

ISKCON says you are not the body, the mind, the intelligence or the false ego. You are actually spirit soul, eternally fragmental part and parcel of Krishna. That pure consciousness is made up of the same elements as Krishna. Sat, cit and ananda. But Krishna has it to unlimited degrees, we have it to limited degrees. There should be no difficulty in grasping that point.

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

Hi (Ravi),

 

"just being. that is your true nature."

 

That is your interpretation. Why is Vidura described as an eternal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Because that is reality. Being means to be an associate of God.

 

"no contiminated restless mind thinking thoughts, no flase ego being stupid, just Pure Being."

 

You are falsely thinking that loving, serving and relating with God requires false ego. It does not. It requires indentification with the self as the servant of Krishna - simple as that.

 

"can this limitless, infintely blissful Chit, which has been manifested as this world and universe and which manifests as God..."

 

God has infinite energies, one of the inferior energies being this world/universe. Even this world can be spiritualised by using the things in service to Krishna. Nothing manifests as God. God is not manifest - He is never manifest or unmanifest - I thought an advaitin would know that much at least.

 

"this one without a second Absolute Truth... can it ever love God? what is bhakti to it? it is Pure Consciousness... realizing it is the goal of all life... Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi, in which the self is realized... sigh..."

 

God is one without a second - agreed...

 

But I am not God, never will be God and never have been God - therefore of course I can love God. Bhakti to the soul is it's constitutional activity. Realising pure consciousness means to realise that my eternal activity is to serve Krishna. Why are the gopis considered eternal associates of Krishna? Why is Vidura considerd an eternal associate of God? Why are all devotees in the scriptures described the same way? How can they be eternal associates if they merge with God? Because they do not merge identities - they immerse their consciousness in the service of the Supreme Consciousness.

 

"Silence."

 

The description of the spiritual world is far from silence, especially when Krishna's flute is vibrating beautifully through the spiritual atmosphere of Goloka Vrindavana.

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

Dear (Ravi),

 

I am repasting the verse because it didn't paste properly:

 

bahunam janmanam ante

 

gyanavan mam prapadyate

 

vasudevah sarvam iti

 

sa mahatma su-durlabhah

 

SYNONYMS

 

bahunam — many; janmanam — repeated births and deaths; ante — after; gyana-van — one who is in full knowledge; mam — unto Me; prapadyate — surrenders; vasudevah — the Personality of Godhead, Krishna; sarvam — everything; iti — thus; sah — that; maha-atma — great soul; su-durlabhah — very rare to see.

 

TRANSLATION

 

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

Kind regards.

[Guest guest]

it sounds like you have the sravanam.. but not the mananam and nididhyaasanam...

 

its ok..

the steps eventually lead to the top...

[Guest guest]

seems as if you are not really even reading what i write..

u just completely reject it b/c of ur intense bias...

 

maybe u can realize that this innate bias u possess is coming form the ego... that it is under your control, and u can change it.

[Guest guest]

hm.. what is the point of arguing? we both think the other is wrong and that will not change, so i guess i will cease and desist. haha

 

oh by the way, his disciplic succession or whatever, it starts from Shiva and it went to adi shankara and then it went to him. (there were lots inbetween).

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/gifs/param.gif

[Guest guest]

hm..

thinking about it, disciplic succession.. doesnt sound that correct.

doesnt make much sense.

so in order to be proprely realized you must have a guru from a certian disciple.

sounds extremely sectarian to me...and that is NOT what hinduism is all about.

 

did Mira Bia have a guru from one of your disciplic succession? she was so great she did not even need a guru. she is the pinnacle of what bhakti represents. in the same way, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa did not have a guru in the beginning and realized the Divine Mother and all other forms of God... Krishna, Rama, Shiva, Jesus, Allah, and declared them all as One.

 

lol..

succession...

see how many tangents we go off of?

funny.. we were actually talking about the self, but now we are still arguing..

 

Atleast Sadartha, i hope you have gotten something from this.

(is Sadartha your real name?)

[Sadartha 0]

Thank you Ravi, for your answers. They were very nice.

 

"(is Sadartha your real name?)"

-no, Sadartha is the name my dear Guruji gave me some time ago.

 

And may I ask, how old are you?

[Guest guest]

im wondering... why would you post such a question if you already have a guru?

 

and i am 17 years old here, what about u?

[ajit12 0]

Every human soul the moment it is born is asking the question "KOHUM,KOHUM???" this means "who am I?

During intensive meditation & sadhana he discovers the answer which then is recited with his every breath.The answer is "SOHUM,SOHUM" or"AHAM BRAMHASMI" which means "I am him" or "I am bramha" If you discover & understand this your sadhana & the cycle of births & deaths is over .This is mukti,Moksha.Rather than asking the meaning of self try and discover the same by asking the above question.The discovery is sheer, total & perpetual bliss.

 

[Guest guest]

but as to the nature of the self? pure consciousness... that which cannot be held in the mind, but that state which is the most natural to be in. that pure consciosuness, being the origin and source of all things. that pure consciousness being all things.

 

Vasistha could go on and on about this topic...

[Sadartha 0]

I was curious to see what kind of answers I would recieve...

 

And Ravi, truly I am ageless, birthless, deathless, ever existing... you do know that don't you?

 

 

-edit-

 

Vasistha?

[Guest guest]

Hello Sadartha, please PM me.

[Sadartha 0]

Ravi,

How can I message you if you are not a registered user?