Re: Are you considering surgery?

[Guest guest]

i want surgery to be the last thing i have to do.

i am going to pain management now and so far it is

working

i still have bad days, i have ddd it is in my neck

and one place in the middle of my back. i have read

and talked with people who have had the surgery and

most are in more pain and more drugs than before. i

just pray every day to give me the strength to get

thur this day. i was wondering if anyone has try the

pain management thing and what their thought of it

was.

dawne

--- Lawler <llerweatherman@...> wrote:

> HI all,

>

> I see there are several folks talking about having

> surgery- cheeeech!

> it scares me. Here is a place to read about

> surgery. It is a little

> long, but well worth the time to read it.

>

>

>

http:/www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/020406fa_FACT

>

> I hope this helps!

>

> GBY

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

That link didn't work in my browser, . Heh, what really scares me

is 'professionals' and their insurance driven decision process

I still haven't decided on surgery. It was looking like the decision

was going to be made for me there for awhile though! I found myself

caught between the HMO expecting Worker's Comp to pay and 'WC'

demanding my HMO pay. Both wanted the other to operate so the other

would no longer be accountable. Its enough to convince me tho, neither

would want surgery for themselves > assuming there's a human in

there somewhere!

I'd like to find some honest facts on disk surgery sucess rates -

perhaps I'll get through to the link you provided if I hack at it a

while. My guess is that back surgery is likely to require repeat

operations every five years or so; as long as none of them end up

botched as they often do.

Of course these are my opinions - anyone needing surgery, god bless you

please.

Jay

" Lawler " wrote:

>

> HI all,

>

> I see there are several folks talking about having surgery-

cheeeech!

> it scares me. Here is a place to read about surgery. It is a little

> long, but well worth the time to read it.

>

>

> http:/www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/020406fa_FACT

>

> I hope this helps!

>

> GBY

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jay,

Keep trying! I just checked my address and it is correct.

Basically, it is an article interviewing a doc or two telling about

the horrors of surgery and encouraging folks to seek other help if at

all feaseable.

One thing to kep in mind, the 'type' of doc you see determines the

treatment recommended! A surgeon advises surgery.....

GBY

>

> That link didn't work in my browser, . Heh, what really

[Guest guest]

At 11:12 AM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

>Keep trying! I just checked my address and it is correct.

>Basically, it is an article interviewing a doc or two telling about

>the horrors of surgery and encouraging folks to seek other help if at

>all feaseable.

>

>One thing to kep in mind, the 'type' of doc you see determines the

>treatment recommended! A surgeon advises surgery.....

, I know you have your own personal vendetta against surgeons and

surgery without ever having had surgery on your back, but for many of us,

surgery has been a godsend. Of course, it's not the be-all and end-all and

is not indicated for everyone, but I think you do readers here a disservice

by panning back surgery whenever you get the chance.

Many people who have had successful back surgeries are no longer here

posting because they are well enough not to be. Alternately, many people

who have not had surgery when maybe it would have helped them tremendously

are still here posting. What does that tell you?

, who stays to help and lend an alternative to the anti-surgery brigade.

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

" Keep trying! I just checked my address and it is correct.

Basically, it is an article interviewing a doc or two telling about

the horrors of surgery and encouraging folks to seek other help if

at all feaseable. "

" One thing to kep in mind, the 'type' of doc you see determines the

treatment recommended! A surgeon advises surgery..... "

, I know you have your own personal vendetta against surgeons

and surgery without ever having had surgery on your back, but for

many of us, surgery has been a godsend. Of course, it's not the be-

all and end-all and is not indicated for everyone, but I think you

do readers here a disservice by panning back surgery whenever you

get the chance.

Many people who have had successful back surgeries are no longer

here posting because they are well enough not to be. Alternately,

many people who have not had surgery when maybe it would have helped

them tremendously are still here posting. What does that tell you?

, who stays to help and lend an alternative to the anti-surgery

brigade.

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

jaytee110180 wrote:

>That link didn't work in my browser, . Heh, what really scares me

>is 'professionals' and their insurance driven decision process

>

>I still haven't decided on surgery. It was looking like the decision

>was going to be made for me there for awhile though! I found myself

>caught between the HMO expecting Worker's Comp to pay and 'WC'

>demanding my HMO pay. Both wanted the other to operate so the other

>would no longer be accountable. Its enough to convince me tho, neither

>would want surgery for themselves > assuming there's a human in

>there somewhere!

>

>I'd like to find some honest facts on disk surgery sucess rates -

>perhaps I'll get through to the link you provided if I hack at it a

>while. My guess is that back surgery is likely to require repeat

>operations every five years or so; as long as none of them end up

>botched as they often do.

>

>Of course these are my opinions - anyone needing surgery, god bless you

>please.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

well one thing I do know. More and more it seems the docs are acting as

if we are not their clients. WE ARE PAYING THEM! I dont care if it comes

out of my paycheck, goes to the insurance company and then to the doc.

We must not let them act like we are some third party and the primary

parties involved are the docs and insurance companies. My last visit to

the doc he talked like " Ok, your not getting better and so now I'm going

to operate " . He's gonna be a bit suprised when I tell him he's not.

Another example I had was when I cancelled my 3rd stereod injection

because I woke up one morning feeling alot better and wanted to see how

it played out. Three days later I ended up rescheduling. They said

something like " OK, but this is the last time we're gonna let you pull

that " .

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Your point is well taken!

I have had three surgeries. All were successful- no complications

and fast, easy recoveries. Two were necessary, one was voluntary.

All have left their mark in scars and residual pain, one had

absolutely no effect- the problem persists to this day.

I personally know 14 people who have had various back surgeries that

were technically successful. All these people are in pain- some

more so than pre-surgery. Two of these people can no

longer 'function in the bedroom'. These people suffer in silence.

They see no recourse in challenging the medical community (how do

you get a doctor to testify against another doctor). These people

have had their lives changed permanantly- for the worse. (Perhaps

there are a few folks who used to post here but are now too

dispirited to do so?)

Just to keep this 'in balance', I also personally know five people

who have had back surgeries and are are doing great in every

respect. I see this as heartening and encouraging.

I feel a need to do what I can to 'encourage' folks to seek help

until nothing is left but surgery. All of us just want the pain to

stop. When we get worn-out, desperate, and ready to jump at

anything that looks promising- that's when we are vulnerable. That's

just when we need to hear a word of caution. That's when we need to

have a doc who cares about us enough to help us through the rough

times and not cave-in.

GBY

Of course, it's not the be-all and end-all and

> is not indicated for everyone, but I think you do readers here a

disservice by panning back surgery whenever you get the chance.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jay,

That doctor-patient thing can get a little hairy sometimes. It is

very important to establish a 'team' approach with your doc. You are

both in the decision-making process. He is the one with the

technical knowledge and access to indicated meds and specialists.

You are the one with the info on how various meds/procedures are

working.

Your doc may have had great success with certain meds/procedures

with other patients and you are the first that does not respond 'as

planned'. It gets frustrating for both of you.

Also, try to remember your doc needs to seperate out patients who

are just shopping for dugs, looking for attention, or desperately

want surgery. These folks go from doctor to doctor, clinic to

clinic- just shopping around for what they want. It is a very

delicate matter to sort through all this, and it takes time. It

gets ugly when the patient is truly in pain.

I used to belong to an HMO. That is a particularly unique thing to

deal with. Be strong! Be persistant! Be sure to make your doc

part of your team.

GBY

Three days later I ended up rescheduling. They said

> something like " OK, but this is the last time we're gonna let you

pull

> that " .

>

[Guest guest]

At 03:27 PM 1/16/2006, wrote:

>I feel a need to do what I can to 'encourage' folks to seek help

>until nothing is left but surgery. All of us just want the pain to

>stop. When we get worn-out, desperate, and ready to jump at

>anything that looks promising- that's when we are vulnerable. That's

>just when we need to hear a word of caution. That's when we need to

>have a doc who cares about us enough to help us through the rough

>times and not cave-in.

Who wants to have surgery, though? I think most of us *would* want to do

anything other than have surgery on our backs. I know I did, and I tried

everything until I was out of options. Luckily, I had a surgeon who left

it up to me as far as surgery. He was wise enough to know I'd be

scheduling with him when the right time came ... and it did, believe

me. He's already told me I might need more surgery in the future and

why. Not now, but someday. Once again, he didn't push. Yes, he's a

surgeon, but he in no way is a solicitor of business.

I think we're both saying the same thing, , and that is, take care of

yourself as a patient. Find a spine specialist you trust, one who will

help you and who has the qualifications you require. I don't put the

responsibility on the doctor/surgeon, as you do, I place is squarely at the

foot of the patient. These days, there's no excuse for not having all the

needed information about personal health issues. Many good doctors know

their patients are in front of computers, asking questions and looking up

everything they have been told. Self-advocacy is a great thing. It keeps

those surgeons you don't trust on their collective toes.

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

Good morning !

Yup! I think we are very much on 'the same page'! Perhaps, just

maybe- I don't have as much trust in drs as you have

GBY

Many good doctors know

> their patients are in front of computers, asking questions and

looking up

> everything they have been told. Self-advocacy is a great thing.

It keeps

> those surgeons you don't trust on their collective toes.

>

>

>

> http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 06:51 AM 1/17/2006, you wrote:

>Good morning !

>

>Yup! I think we are very much on 'the same page'! Perhaps, just

>maybe- I don't have as much trust in drs as you have

>

>GBY

>

I think that's true, about the " trust " thing with doctors. I've had some

very good ones, and I think that's a huge part of why I'm a bit more

optimistic. I have to add that I researched and asked a LOT of questions

of health care professionals over the years. and I always advise

preparedness for back pain sufferers. Maybe that's why I had good experiences.

And now, for my second cup of morning coffee and my first round of pain

meds <smile>

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

and ,

I am a bit of a lurker- just wanted to say that I am very glad both of you

are available to all of us.

I am in the situation that I could have surgery-but being in my early 30's

with multiple issues in my cervical, thoracic, and lumbar the path to surgery

would/will most likely begin the journey of creating more instablity with each

surgery which would mean more surgery.

I have seen a number of Drs- who disagree or agree on the when and where- but

I have made the choice to avoid surgery as long as possible.

Yoga, pilates, massage, biofeedback, chiropractors, PT, accupunture, tens,

traction, etc has not relieved my symptoms and now I am forced to use a mild

pain medication. I can still care for my home, children- but don't see work

being a very great experience and should I have to work I would most likely

consider surgery.

Each and everyone I have met with back issues seems to have very

individualized approaches to their personal care-

I am glad that both of your points of view and experiences are shared with all

of us.

<karens@...> wrote:

At 06:51 AM 1/17/2006, you wrote:

>Good morning !

>

>Yup! I think we are very much on 'the same page'! Perhaps, just

>maybe- I don't have as much trust in drs as you have

>

>GBY

>

I think that's true, about the " trust " thing with doctors. I've had some

very good ones, and I think that's a huge part of why I'm a bit more

optimistic. I have to add that I researched and asked a LOT of questions

of health care professionals over the years. and I always advise

preparedness for back pain sufferers. Maybe that's why I had good experiences.

And now, for my second cup of morning coffee and my first round of pain

meds <smile>

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

At 10:22 AM 1/17/2006, you wrote:

> Yoga, pilates, massage, biofeedback, chiropractors, PT, accupunture,

> tens, traction, etc has not relieved my symptoms and now I am forced to

> use a mild pain medication. I can still care for my home, children- but

> don't see work being a very great experience and should I have to work I

> would most likely consider surgery.

Hi Diane and thanks for your kind words. I retired early from my civil

service career with the state judiciary about two and a half years ago when

I knew surgery was in the cards for me. I waited a year after retirement

to have my surgery. It was a long and still on-going recovery and I don't

know if I could have been able to handle it if I had to go right back to

work. In fact, one of the things that's kept me upbeat and in a positive

frame of mind is that I can do what I need to do at my own pace. There are

days that I feel like a million bucks. Other days are about $3.75, if you

know what I mean. Bear in mind, though, that I have additional problems

with my back as a result of having the first surgery and because of DDD and

a congenital structural problem with my lumbar spine.

What you say is true. The road to feeling good with back pain is

individual and really just trial and error sometimes. I'm starting to

consider Pilates, yoga and massage as possible aids to feeling

better. I've read about many people who have had results with them.

Thanks again for bein' so nice.

http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Diane,

Thank you for your kind words!

Thank you for sharing your 'story'- it helps all of us to know what

others are doing to cope with pain. I do most of the same things

you do- I haven't tried yoga yet. I just tried that Pilates thing-

ouch!!

I know how difficult it is to bang away at these sily machines when

you are consumed with pain, and I remember the days of having

children around. I say this to let you know how truly thankful I am

for your message. I am humbled.

GBY

>

> and ,

>

> I am a bit of a lurker- just wanted to say that I am very glad

both of you are available to all of us.

>

> I am in the situation that I could have surgery-but being in my

early 30's with multiple issues in my cervical, thoracic, and lumbar

[Guest guest]

Thanks and - felt great to participate!

I liked your little massage tool hint- My latest joy is one of those full body

heat and massage pads- Downfall is that after awhile it can irrate my

irritations :-) and the other down fall is that the heat doesn't get hot enough

for my likings-but for a quick 15-20 minute laydown(thankgod for 15-20 minutes

of lay down time :-) it is a nice treat.

My other true pleasure is a good soak in the hot springs or a hot tub- for

just a little while I can totally forget about my aching back! My family has

learned to drag me to heated water whenever they can get a chance!

Today is a rough day- have had my house on the market for sale- seems like I

can hack it all for a fews days and then it adds up and I am worthless for a day

or two..

I have found that my best treatment is just to try to stay as active as I can

without causing more damage- sometimes a slow stroll when I have the aches and

burns helps keep my mind off things..

-beware the yoga masters! I had one instructor that totally thought he

was God and thought he was going to cure me- I earned two weeks of laying around

in misery for that adventure! Find someone that will take it slow... I think

the breathing exercises were the most beneficial and I still use um..

I am thankful everytime I hop online and find an email from this great support

group- all of the folks on this group are full of hope and optimistic- no matter

what treatment I use, plan to use and/or have used - I know that it works best

when I feel good about it.

Thanks everyone

DIane

[Guest guest]

, something you said about preparedness and doctor/patient

communication has me thinking.

I would inately expect to communicate well with the doctor because:

1) they're usually males (as I am)

2) they're trained in science as I too am

- yet in reality it comes down to the

complete opposite!

Where the average person communicates non-verbally maybe 60% of the

time, I think doctors must do it 99%; while requiring the patient do

the same.

Males are going to have more trouble then females anyway; but there

are some [males] who communicate non-verbally less than 5% of the

time if at all. For me, being prepared to visit the doctor only helps

him or her finish sooner. Trust is beyond the question in this

situation I think.

Best of luck to you.

Maybe 'best of skill' is more accurate

JayTee

wrote:

>

>

> At 06:51 AM 1/17/2006, you wrote:

> >Good morning !

> >

> >Yup! I think we are very much on 'the same page'! Perhaps, just

> >maybe- I don't have as much trust in drs as you have

> >

> >GBY

> >

>

>

> I think that's true, about the " trust " thing with doctors. I've

had some

> very good ones, and I think that's a huge part of why I'm a bit

more

> optimistic. I have to add that I researched and asked a LOT of

questions

> of health care professionals over the years. and I always advise

> preparedness for back pain sufferers. Maybe that's why I had good

experiences.

>

> And now, for my second cup of morning coffee and my first round of

pain

> meds <smile>

>

>

>

>

> http://thebacklog.blogspot.com/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave, almost forgot about your post. I started to reply

and it got late. Decided to read it over the next morning

then lost track of it - good thing actually.

Maybe its just thread drift but my sense is: 's kind of talk,

and likely what it leads to, my talk and your talk, probably isn't

going to be appreciated here in any thread.

The syrupy stuff never made me feel better. I was hoping to learn

from the experiences from those here not see them chided and marched

back into line. Never the less, what george and especially you said,

motivated me to pick up a book I found at the thrift store the other

day and read while I soaked.

I'm guessing you could benefit by talking to those interested in

solving problems, or discovering and relating ways of working around

the system. I'm not trying to start a new group - just want to know

if you know of any which accomplish this. I could probably talk about

my spine issues, or the issues my spine has gotten me into just about

as well anywhere like that.

I need tangibles: like what does it mean when I have no reflex in my

knee and neither my doctor nor the one he refers me to will mention

of it in my record. Or why another doctor sent me back to work when I

was injured injoining me to " get better or get worse " . Can I even

quote what my doctor tells me, can I have a whitness present, can I

record my doctor? Who can the patient appeal to besides an attorney.

Instead I'm dab in the middle of " Perfect " where everyone is lucky,

gifted in social graces, desireable, smart, highly esteemed, and

condescending to boot of those not up to their level or ability.

Enjoying the meds?

About the book I found - by Ivan Illich, perhaps was one the world's

leading anti-social, anti-Socialist, Socialists He says " To be

ignorant or unconvinced of one's own needs has become the

unforgivable antisocial act " .

Good luck and beware, recognize your own need, especially online.

JayTee

dave sailer wrote:

>

> jaytee110180 wrote:

>

> >That link didn't work in my browser, . Heh, what really

scares me

> >is 'professionals' and their insurance driven decision process

> >

> >I still haven't decided on surgery. It was looking like the

decision

> >was going to be made for me there for awhile though! I found

myself

> >caught between the HMO expecting Worker's Comp to pay and 'WC'

> >demanding my HMO pay. Both wanted the other to operate so the

other

> >would no longer be accountable. Its enough to convince me tho,

neither

> >would want surgery for themselves > assuming there's a human in

> >there somewhere!

> >

> >I'd like to find some honest facts on disk surgery sucess rates -

> >perhaps I'll get through to the link you provided if I hack at it

a

> >while. My guess is that back surgery is likely to require repeat

> >operations every five years or so; as long as none of them end up

> >botched as they often do.

> >

> >Of course these are my opinions - anyone needing surgery, god

bless you

> >please.

> >

> well one thing I do know. More and more it seems the docs are

acting as

> if we are not their clients. WE ARE PAYING THEM! I dont care if it

comes

> out of my paycheck, goes to the insurance company and then to the

doc.

> We must not let them act like we are some third party and the

primary

> parties involved are the docs and insurance companies. My last

visit to

> the doc he talked like " Ok, your not getting better and so now I'm

going

> to operate " . He's gonna be a bit suprised when I tell him he's not.

> Another example I had was when I cancelled my 3rd stereod injection

> because I woke up one morning feeling alot better and wanted to see

how

> it played out. Three days later I ended up rescheduling. They said

> something like " OK, but this is the last time we're gonna let you

pull

> that " .

>