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The Religious Tolerance Thread.

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This is a Hindu forum, yet it is dominated by individuals who cannot see religion coexisting with religion, who see it their God-given goal to make theirs the religion of their nation, who restlessly argue that theirs is the better God and theirs is the better faith. These fundamentalist, ignorant, and zealotic individuals as well as organizations have hijacked our religion of tolerance, acceptance, and harmony into an ideology of intolerance, hatred, xenophobia. I firmly believe that someone who fights in the name of religion has no idea what Hinduism truly is. They have turned the nonviolence of the Mahatma into the senseless violence of the Bajrang Dal, RSS, BJP, etc. Frankly, I am tired of such overpowering ignorance in the world and on this forum in particular.

 

So I write this to gather those among us who remain sane; those who have not been bitten by the Hindutva bug; those that, although devoutly Hindu, absolutely reject the ideology of intolerance, violence, and hatred condoned and propagated by right-wing organizations in India and individuals on this forum in the name of Hinduism. Hindu India should not be dominated by the ultra-conservative Nazi-like groups and individuals like the BJP, Narendra Modi, and RSS to name a few. As such, this Hindu forun should not be dominated by Muslim-, Jew-, and Christian-hating people (I won't mention names, but we all know who they are). I write to ask and discuss what can be done about this lobby of fundamentalists who have put the religion of our ancestors to shame by using it for political and violent ambitions. Is there any way to stop this disease of Hindutva? How are tolerant men in India--and this forum--ever to be heard as the true voice of Hinduism when the blaring sirens of religious intolerance are ringing all about?

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I agree with you one hundred percent on religious tolerance. Hinduism is all about that, but I think we need to take it even one step further, we need move toward acceptance. When we tolerate someone, we are merely putting up with them. But lets us instead embrace the christians, the jews, the muslims, and the buddhist. As th buddhist have offered their nirvana to people of all faiths, let us offer heaven to them as well. But I beg all of you to keep in mind that the space in heaven is only God's to give. The way hindus have began to behave today, is clear cause for none of us to recieve this salvation. Why should we continue to fight the muslims? Hinduism is a religion not only of tolerance but also seva or helping others. If the muslims want to fight us then let them, but we should only work to help them. Because to this day no religion that has ever advocated violence has survived. There will come a time when hinduism, islam, or christianity will not exist. There will only be the history books that will logs the events and interactions between these religions. Lets us not be remembered as a murderous mob, let us be remembered as religion of peace, seva, and not just tolerance but acceptance.

 

--Ronak J. Desai

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There is a saying only a well educated jeweler can value a precious stone, it will have no value when it goes into the hands of a monkey. Similarly only those know the value of these organisation who have suffered a lot because of muslim harrassment, barbarism and many more soul killing activities can know its value. Mere a person sitting in his house (may it be a Hindu)with a lots of luxury can never understand the value, and then what speak about tolerance. Ignorance is on your side bandhu, try browsing aorund, ask mulsim affected familiies , learn some history books , and if not enough refer to Madahv (one of the members in this forum) and he will let you know what does tolerance actually mean when it comes to these beef eaters.

 

hari hari bol

 

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{we need move toward acceptance}

 

Accept Islam? Accept that it is true and Mohammed was the last prophet and converting or killing non-believers is good? Don't expect the entire Hindu community to follow you.

 

{If the muslims want to fight us then let them, but we should only work to help them.}

 

Are you serious? What planet are you on? Work to help them do what? Terrorism and conversion? So are you suggesting we convert to make the muslims happy? If the muslims fight us we will defend ourselves. Sri Krishna teaches us to defend outselves in the Gita and fight against unrighteousness. If we don't defend ourselves we will be killed or converted like what happened to the Hindus and Buddhists of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Would you want India to give up kashmir to Pakistan? If this happens then they will slowly eat up all states of India by increasing muslim population.

 

{Because to this day no religion that has ever advocated violence has survived.}

 

But Hinduism isn't one of those religions. Hinduism does not advocate unnecessary violence but advocates that we must defend ourselves, even if that means going to war. If we don't defend ourselves then we are cowards and cowardice will lead to bad karma and more suffering. The Hindus have suffered enough.

 

{There will come a time when hinduism, islam, or christianity will not exist.}

 

As long as we keep getting great sages from time to time, Hinduism will be here as long as the human race is here.

 

{ Lets us not be remembered as a murderous mob, let us be remembered as religion of peace, seva, and not just tolerance but acceptance.}

 

Remembered? You are already a defeatist! Don't you know religions that have died out are not remembered. Who cares about dead religions they are all in the past they couldn't stand the test of time. If we follow your example Hindus will be remembered as pathetic cowards who gave in all the time to others until they no longer existed! They will be remembered as human door-mats who everyone could walk over and had no dignity. They will be a tragedy. The world will surely laugh at them.

 

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but these idiots will never understand. According to them, the Muslims who kill, rape and torment Hindus in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan (or wherever they are majority, for that matter) are not true muslims, because true muslims are soooo sweet and generous. Thank god we dont have such true muslims! Whereas rss and vhp, who do social service in times of disasters like earthquakes, tsuanami and cyclones, are the bad guys just because they (rightly) speak an aggressive language. With hindus like these, we don't need enemies.

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It saddens me that I read these post this morning. I was expecting the learned hindu population to come out and support not only the statements made by Happy and myself, but also to support hinduism and its ideals. However, this was not the case. Krishnadasa, you state that only people who have been affected by muslim harrassment can truly speak on this topic. So let me ask you a simple question, how have you been a victim of muslim harrassment? I don't want you to refer to some history books or a website, because I have probably already encountered it. I want to know how specifically you have been affected.

 

On this topic, I can say that without doubt that I am the well educated jeweler. My family has lost land to muslims during the partition. A cousin of mine who married a muslim has be surpressed and harrassed far beyond your understanding. I have lost family members in this constant war against Pakistan. Yet, I am still here asking for peace. I am still here asking that we move beyond tolerance, and towards acceptance. So before you respond to this I want you to think long and hard what gives you any right to fuel hatred.

 

Oh and just a side note not eating beef does not make you anymore holy of a person. Today only 30% of the Hindus are non-meat eaters.

 

--Ronak J. Desai

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<< what gives you any right to fuel hatred. >>

 

God. If there is a cobra in our home,

we have right to tell it to all, and so something about it.

We have been biten for 1000 years. Is that not enough to wake up?

 

Arjun loved Bhishma, and Drona;

but when he understood what Krishna said him in gita.

So, he killed both of them. All cannot love enemies.

Even you cannot love us. But love or not, one must fight with adharmi ideology. Invader has no right to stay.

 

Just think, what would have happened if Gandhi or a gandhian like you were the advisor of Arjun at that time of Mahabharat?

 

The matter is not fueling hatred.

Hatred is abundently spread in the thousands of Madresas against all the kafirs, including you.

The matter is a consideration of the clear fact that Islam is 180 degree opposite of Hinduism/Gita.

 

If a dove lives with a hawk, it is the dove that will suffer. If a chicken lives with the fox, it is the chicken that will suffer and loose everything. Islam has invaded in our land and by brute force. Why respect Islam that is totally anti-Hindu?

 

Well. if you are not a serious Hindu, then you would not care. If you are afraid of Muslims, then also you will not care for Hindus and Hinduism, and Hindustan. Or if you are ignorant of the centuries long history how we have suffered, then you will say what you said. Or, finally, you are a Muslim or paid by Muslim to delude the Hindus. Did I miss any other possibility?

 

Was Krishna a fool when he created kshatriya varna?

Was Gandhi more wise than Krishna?

Answer.

 

Do you like to live in a land where there is no military or police? There are some. You could make their a peace loving society. Try.

 

-----------

I thank those Hindus here who have correctly understood my analysis on this matter and have responded appropritely. Thanks a lot, keep up.

 

 

 

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Maadhav,

 

{{{ Arjun loved Bhishma, and Drona; but when he understood what Krishna said him in gita. So, he killed both of them. All cannot love enemies. Even you cannot love us. But love or not, one must fight with adharmi ideology. Invader has no right to stay. }}}

 

Maadhav, you are ignoring that the Gita is not a stand-alone scripture. The Gita is a part of the Mahabharat. In the Gita, Krishna is saying to Arjun to kill the enemy. Do you know what happens in the Mahabharat before Krishna gives the Gita updesh? Krishna BEGS for peace. He begs to King Dridhrashtra to stop the war from happening. Do you understand the implications of this statement? This is the almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing, invincible, Shri Krishna BEGGING FOR PEACE. Krishna ONLY instructs Arjun to kill once ALL attempts at peace have been shattered.

 

{{{ Just think, what would have happened if Gandhi or a gandhian like you were the advisor of Arjun at that time of Mahabharat? }}}

 

If Gandhi had been alive at the time of the Mahabharat, I'm sure he would not have hopped onto a chariot to be an advisor to killing. He would have sought more ways at peace, and he would have been noble and honorable for doing so regardless of your opinion. Just think, what would happen if everyone fighting in the war of the Mahabharat was a Gandhian like me and Ronak? Or any war, for that matter?

 

{{{ The matter is not fueling hatred.

Hatred is abundently spread in the thousands of Madresas against all the kafirs, including you. }}}

 

Are you kidding me? "The matter is not fueling hatred"!? So just because "hatred is abundently spread in the thousands of Madresas" means that anything you or fundamentalist Hindus say about how you hate Muslims is NOT REALLY spreading hatred? Come on, Maadhav. I'm having a hard time believe that someone can really be so unable to comprehend.

 

{{{ Islam is 180 degree opposite of Hinduism/Gita }}}

Muslim fundamentalists want to spread violence among anyone that disrespects Islam. You are Hindu fundamentalist. You wish to spread violence among anyone who disrespects Hinduism. There is no difference between these two types of fundamentalists except for what their name is: they both want violence. Islam may be 180 degrees different from Hinduism, but YOU Maadhav and all your fundamentalist friends are 0 degrees different from those Islamic fundamentalists you hate so much.

 

{{{ If a dove lives with a hawk, it is the dove that will suffer. If a chicken lives with the fox, it is the chicken that will suffer and loose everything. Islam has invaded in our land and by brute force. Why respect Islam that is totally anti-Hindu? }}}

Islam may have invaded India, but so did the British. Why are you not saying, "Let's punish any British person left in India"? Why are you not saying, "Let's hate the British"? How about the Portuguese? They came in and invaded. They pillaged temples, raped women. There's still many many Christian Portuguese living in Goa and the rest of India. Come on, let's attack the Portuguese too, while we're attacking anyone ever blamed for being anti-Hindu.

 

You have to define what anti-Hindu means. To do that, you have to define what HINDU means. Are Buddhists anti-Hindu for not believing in the Vedas? Are Christians anti-Hindu for believing Jesus was an avatar? Just like a Krishna-bhakt will say, "My Vishnu is God, and Krishna is his avatar," a Christian will say, "My Lord is God, and Jesus is his avatar/prophet," and a Muslim will say, "My Allah is God, and Mohammed is his prophet." Should all three kill each other since they don't agree?

 

{{{ Was Krishna a fool when he created kshatriya varna?

Was Gandhi more wise than Krishna?

Answer. }}}

 

Was Krishna fool to beg for peace? Gandhi was just as wise as Krishna. Both begged for peace. Krishna couldn't find any other way to win the war WITHOUT FIGHTING, so he allowed for the fighting to take place. Gandhi could and DID find a way to win the war WITHOUT FIGHTING, and he believed you could do so for any war in the modern world. Stop bashing on Gandhi. Without him, you and I would still be serving chaai to our British sahibs.

 

Stop your hatred of others. Just because they hate you doesn't mean you hate them. Krishna did not say, "your enemy is evil, Arjun, so you must kill them." He said, "your DUTY is to kill Arjun, so you must do it." It is not your duty to kill Muslims, because the vast majority of them are not your enemies but in fact are peace-loving individuals just like everyone else. When people become fundamentalists in ANY religion, they do not represent their religion as it truly is. YOU don't represent Hinduism, Maadhav, for the fact that you are a Hindu fundamentalist. And Islamic terrorists do not represent Islam, and Christian terrorists do not represent Christianity.

 

Tell me, how does it feel to be a fundamentalist? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif I'm sure it gets you all the ladies. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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As a martial Artist, I usually go against bigger, stronger and more skillful people than myself in battle ground all the time during training.

 

In those training ground, I have learn one thing - physical aspects is not a winning aspect of a person, it is what inside a person who contribute to his or her victory or defeat.

 

In that aspect, we should understand a few things when comes to dealing with adharmic people.

 

1. They are adharmic - pure and simple.

While they (as humans) are not evil by nature, they are adharmic by education (religion), thus should be treated accordingly.

 

2. Teaching adharmic people in dharmic ways (peace and tolerance) is not acceptable. Hindus were peaceful and follow their religion teaching, and in the end, India lost. Same mistake must not be repeated.

 

3. Those who feel they are not suitable to fight need not trouble themselves. All they have to do is support fellow Hindus who willing to fight.

 

4. NEVER hate your enemies, dislike them is fine. Hate will bring your heart away from God.

 

5. When comes to dealing with Adharmic people, be firm and say so in their faces if they question your beliefs. Be proud of who you are, because if Hindus do not proud themselves as Hindus, who will?

 

6. Finally, do a lot of research (as much as you capable of doing). Unlike other religions (Judaism is limited to knowledge which was given), Vedas are full of beneficial knowledge to the world. Hindus should bring it forward to the World as they did 1,000 years ago.

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"If Gandhi had been alive at the time of the Mahabharat, I'm sure he would not have hopped onto a chariot to be an advisor to killing. He would have sought more ways at peace, and he would have been noble and honorable for doing so regardless of your opinion"

 

Yes indeed, and mean while Drupahdi, Subhatra and all other women would have been raped.

 

Pandvas will going to country after country begging for some help.

 

Purisriva would be making comment "Let us kick the ass out of Kunti" and all Papers will be publishing it in head lines

 

Musharaff, sorry Durdyohna would keep a test and say, this is a test for Yudhistra to prove whether he is a real lover of Dharma.

 

And so and so forth.

 

Of course there will be some articles now and then appreciating how patient Gandhi and his disciple Arjun are, and you and Ronak would study that in your Balcony sitting in a relaxed arm-chair and enjoying every bit of it.

 

What a real loss Gandhi was not there at that time.

 

"Just think, what would happen if everyone fighting in the war of the Mahabharat was a Gandhian like me and Ronak"

 

Don't Just think (and get lost in your own ideal world), see (for that only God has given eyes) the reality and act accordingly.

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Once again, I come back to this discussion hoping for some sense of insight from other people besides Happy. Here I read paragraph after paragraph of muslim bashing, but no rational. I brought a very simple question to the discussion. Who here has actually been personal effected by muslim harrassment?

 

 

 

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Hari OM:

 

No need to be affected personally, affecting our community is enough reason, if you are not feeling sorry for Kashmiri Pandits, then you are heartless.

 

Go and ask the people rioting in Pakistan against Iraqi occupation, "Are you personally affected by that occupation"

 

Just a quote from a Priest in the time of Hitler:

 

"First they came for Jews, then I didn't care since I was not a Jew"

 

"Then they came for Blacks, still I didn't care since I was not a black too"

 

"Then they came for me, but there was no body to care for me"

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{{{ "Just think, what would happen if everyone fighting in the war of the Mahabharat was a Gandhian like me and Ronak"

Don't Just think (and get lost in your own ideal world), see (for that only God has given eyes) the reality and act accordingly. }}}

 

Subham, I dont think you actually THOUGHT what would happen if everyone fighting in the war of the Mahabharata were a Gandhian.

 

Newsflash: If EVERYONE in the war were Gandhian, NO ONE WOULD FIGHT.

 

If Gandhi was the only Gandhian in the Mahabharat times, he would have tried for peace. This does not mean the war would not have happened. This just means he would not have taken part in the war whatsoever. Got that? Good.

 

Why do you, Subham, and others, keeps shaming Mahatma Gandhi's teachings? We should be celebrating all that he has done for us and the world:

de di hame.n aazaadi binaa khaDg binaa Dhaal,

sabaramati ke sant tune kar diyaa kamaal!

 

Why must you insert so much violence in our religion of peace and tolerance?

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I brought a very simple question to the discussion. Who here has actually been personal effected by muslim harrassment?

 

Well ... I can tell my own accounts, maybe others will follow.

 

When I was growing up, I was never liked by Muslims due to my intelligence, but that wasn't much of a problem. Growing up is no big deal because my village was surrounded by Hindus and Buddhists (which whom I have come to learn about their culture). Muslims didn't effect me much back then, despite of common name calling which happens everywhere also.

 

When I was in private high-school, several incidents changed my preception of them. I was from a poor background so I did some duties like handling libraries, files etc during my school times. I always fast during Tuesdays and Fridays and that made other Muslims (including my teachers) upset (because they cannot do such as easily as I was doing). Furthermore, I did ALL my chorus without any delay or sign of slowing down due to my practise and that made them upset even further.

 

Maybe this is why, one of the Muslim boys there (living in the dorm) one day, during recess suddenly kicked me on the back and another elbowed me in the stomach. I didn't know why but I fought back. Did break a few bones. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I found out later that my Muslim teachers had been "using" me as a sort of method of bullying Muslim students to perform better in midst of others. They had been forcing the students to behave better (because I could do so easily and still successful in education) and this put pressures onto boys who simply didn't care. That was my first real bad experience.

 

2nd one comes from the same school also. The same teachers had asked others who know how to write to contribute to Monthly School Magazine. I wrote a thesis on use of Herbs and Remedies on various Cultures (Hindusm, Buddhism, Islam and Christians) and wrote about 5 pages worth materials.

 

A few days later, I found the same papers I have written in dumpster. I didn't know why it was there so I return it to the headmistress (Muslim). She mumbled that it probably got thrown away accidentally and I left. When Monthly School Magazine was published, my thesis was no where to be found.

 

Years passes with stupid people doing all sort of stupid things to me and I took it silently. Many of them were insult to the face on beliefs I follow.

 

When I went to work, things quiet down a little, but that didn't mean it died out. My supervisor once riddiculed my beliefs, I have seen highly intelligence people insult others (Jews especially in TV) openly and when asked why OIC and other Muslim nations not doing anything, they keep quiet.

 

After 9-11, I have witnessed many Muslims openly blame the problems Muslims faced to everything under the heaven and in hell but themselves. Many of this blames falls on shoulders of Kafirs - Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.

 

And finally, I was introduced to Forums by a friend who thinks I could satisfy my desire and hunger for knowledge and even here, I have seen my hypocrite Muslims than I have seen good one.

 

So, there you have it ... many of Harrassment of Muslims toward me for the past 15 years. Anyone wants to continue?

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Hari OM:

 

You are not able to differeniate between offense and defense.

 

You tell that when we drop all our defenses, then the enemy would fell sorry for us and he would also drop all his weapons and there will be sea of Peace everywhere.

 

But sorry my dear friend, you are not in touch with reality, the moment we drop our defenses we will be devaoured.

 

Better build the defenses, become strong and then enemy will automatically stop the war and we have peace.

 

Don't go for offence, against our Dharma, but don't drop the defense otherwise you will be destroyed.

 

 

"If EVERYONE in the war were Gandhian, NO ONE WOULD FIGHT"

 

This IF is a very very very very big IF, even IF 10% in the war were non-Gandhian, then the remaining 90% would perish.

 

PS: contrary to your opinion even though Gandhi was instrumental in India obtaining freedom, he is not the only reason, it was also Bose, Bhagat Singh, second world war weakening british empire, etc., since congress goverments were in power, they conveniently covered all these facts. If none of the above facts would have happened, Gandhi would have fasted until death, but still British would not have left India, or a maximum of limited autonomy would have been achieved.

 

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{My family has lost land to muslims during the partition. A cousin of mine who married a muslim has be surpressed and harrassed far beyond your understanding. I have lost family members in this constant war against Pakistan.}

 

Well I'm sorry to hear that, but I must say you don't seem to have learnt much. I believe we need to DEFEND ourselves against muslims, not start a war on them. The reason why some muslims have won over a Hindus is because the Hindu is weak, naive and unrealistic. You cousin who married a muslim and is now being surpressed and harrassed is a story I've heard far too many times. Why can't a muslim accept a Hindu...? because it's against his religion!

 

Ask yourself why we have RSS, VHP now and not 100's of years before? It's because of the pressure Hindu commmunity has come under throughout history from muslims. I know that these orgainsations have some extremist Hindus within them who just want all muslims out of India. I don't think that this is the way forward, but nor is Gandhis way of giving the muslims whatever they want to make them happy. You know we have no problems with the parsis and many other religions, but it's always the muslims there is a problem with. Not just in India, but all over the world where muslims are there are communal problems. It's because of the way muslims are, they don't want to integrate, they want to dominate! This problem will never change until the muslims change their attitude. But how can they it's part of their religion?

 

{I am still here asking that we move beyond tolerance, and towards acceptance.}

 

I have a big problem with this. What do you mean by acceptance? Please explain. You mean not to just tolerate Islam...but accept it as true? I'm sorry if that's the case, I'm not with you on that. The muslims don't accept us, they will never accpt us, they say Hinduism is false and it's teachings are wrong and it needs to be destroyed. How can you accept something that is against you? Muslims dislike us just because of our religion and nothing else. If you accept muslims it will only be a matter of time before they pressure you to convert. And we all know that once you convert to Islam, you are not allowed to leave...or else death. No my friend, it is against my intellect and conscience to accpt Islam.

 

By the way if Gandhi was there in the Kurukshetra war, he would've made a mess of things. Have you heard of the advice Gandhi gave the British when fighting Hitler?...it was disgraceful! Put it this way, if the British had listened to him, we'd all either be dead or speaking German as slaves.

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"As unnecessary as a well is to a village on the banks of a river,

Thats a wrong analogy! Nobody can drink river water (as its very very salty) , in any case you need a well at home. Thats my personal experience

 

so unnecessary are the scriptures to someone who has seen the truth - No thats wrong, even for him its a tool to lead the others to truth

 

By the way for which verse in Gita you have intepreted like this? can you please put a detailed reference from Gita like Chapter, verse and so on.

 

Hari Hari bol

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Krishnadasa,

 

{{{ By the way for which verse in Gita you have intepreted like this? can you please put a detailed reference from Gita like Chapter, verse and so on. }}}

 

The quote is from a translation of the Gita you may not be familiar with, but which I believe to be very poetically appeasing. It is verse 46 in Chapter 2 of the Gita, as translated by Mitchell. You may be familiar with the "Bhagavad-Gita As It Is" translation, which reads as so:

 

"All purposes that are served by the small pond can at once be served by the great reservoirs of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them."

 

Mitchell's main objective was a translation that both tries to preserve the poetic beauty of the Gita as well as keep the meaning of the verses intact. I think he's done a very good job to this end.

 

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Sephiroth,

 

{{{ 1. They are adharmic - pure and simple.

While they (as humans) are not evil by nature, they are adharmic by education (religion), thus should be treated accordingly. }}}

 

So you're basically saying, we should be bigots against anyone who doesn't follow the dharmic principles that you and I do?

 

{{{ 2. Teaching adharmic people in dharmic ways (peace and tolerance) is not acceptable. Hindus were peaceful and follow their religion teaching, and in the end, India lost. Same mistake must not be repeated. }}}

 

No one is saying we have to teach adharmic people to live in peace and tolerance. What I'm saying is that if YOU do not live your life with peace and tolerance toward adharmic people, then YOU are being adharmic. You say that "peace and tolerance" are dharmic ways, but then you say that Hindus should not be peaceful and tolerant anymore since "India lost" when they were peaceful and tolerant. Hindus should not be peaceful? They should be intolerant? They should be adharmic? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't see the logic.

 

{{{ 5. When comes to dealing with Adharmic people, be firm and say so in their faces if they question your beliefs. Be proud of who you are, because if Hindus do not proud themselves as Hindus, who will? }}}

 

Say what to their faces?

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{{{ "If EVERYONE in the war were Gandhian, NO ONE WOULD FIGHT"

 

This IF is a very very very very big IF, even IF 10% in the war were non-Gandhian, then the remaining 90% would perish. }}}

 

It took just ONE Gandhian, Mahatma Gandhi himself, to kick out the British Empire from India. He convinced so many people that he raised his very own army of Gandhians. That's 1 Gandhian for 400 million Indians (alive in 1940s) fighting against the whole empire of Great Britian with 100% non-Gandhians.

 

{{{ PS: contrary to your opinion even though Gandhi was instrumental in India obtaining freedom, he is not the only reason, it was also Bose, Bhagat Singh, second world war weakening british empire, etc., since congress goverments were in power, they conveniently covered all these facts. If none of the above facts would have happened, Gandhi would have fasted until death, but still British would not have left India, or a maximum of limited autonomy would have been achieved. }}}

 

First of all, it is not my OPINION that Mahatma Gandhi was the biggest catalyst for the Indian independence movement. It is a fact engraved into history. Second of all, I don't doubt that Bose and the rest had much to do with it, including the fact that the British were weary from WWII, but the primary driving force behind August 15, 1945 was Mahatma Gandhi.

 

On a similar note, is that why the RSS had Gandhi assassinated, then? Because they saw that he "is not the only reason" behind India's freedom? Hm. Interesting. How charitable the RSS was! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif They were so giving and merciful that they killed off the person that gave them freedom because he was nonviolent. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Also, you say that "I am here because of God, not Gandhi"; I don't disagree with you on that, but that statement can be applied to anything: Albert Einstien came up with relativity because of God, not his brain; da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa because of God, not his art skill; Dickens wrote his books because of God, not his style. And the opposite can be done too: Hitler killed 12 million Jews because of God, not his mercilessness; the US killed thousands in Iraq because of God, not their carelessness.

My point is that it's silly to say "this happens because of God" because EVERYTHING happens for that same reason. You have to have more concrete reasons for things, the "God reason" is just too universal. Therefore, yes you are "here because of God," but that doesn't mean Gandhi had nothing to do with your state of being. You're here, free to be online, because of the efforts of Gandhi and others during the independence movement, plain and simple. Without that historical fact occuring, the course of events may not have led to this same future with you being a free individual.

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So you're basically saying, we should be bigots against anyone who doesn't follow the dharmic principles that you and I do?

 

No, I'm saying bigotry should be returned with bigotry, respect with respect, love with love and such. You cannot expect Hindus to go and become tolerant toward adharmic people who openly question and riddicule Hindusm, could you?

 

Knowing what to do and when to do is is vital in winning a battle - whether it is physical, mental or spiritual. Attacking without a plan (or proper knowledge) is stupidity, Not attacking at all (and take whatever comes in name of peace and blind tolerance) is cowardice.

 

What I'm saying is that if YOU do not live your life with peace and tolerance toward adharmic people, then YOU are being adharmic.

 

Wrong ... standing for one's own right IS NOT adharmic. Peace and Tolerance exists ONLY if BOTH SIDES give and take peacefully and with tolerance.

 

That is not happening now (or since Islam comes to India). Foolish people had been binding Hindus' hands with false concept of Peace and Tolerance for ages, all to satisfy foolish people such as Muslims and Christians. This must stop or Hindus will lose their heritage and culture and Hindusm cease to exist.

 

You say that "peace and tolerance" are dharmic ways, but then you say that Hindus should not be peaceful and tolerant anymore since "India lost" when they were peaceful and tolerant. Hindus should not be peaceful? They should be intolerant? They should be adharmic? I don't see the logic.

 

You don't see the logic because you do not understand Dharma.

 

You are like some backboneless people nowadays who thinks that to fight is violent and adharmic. It is not ... to fight IS nature of Man, God just shows how to fight and become deattached from one's action.

 

Matter a fact, each person who sees adharmic activities and choose to ignore it, thinking that to fight it is adharmic and therefore, should blindly follow some notion of peace and tolerance ARE adharmic themselves.

 

Gautama Buddha himself agreed that if one sees an evil action and does nothing, he is guilt of performing such action himself as well as the doer of that action.

 

Which means, if a Buddhist sees a Rapist trying to rape a woman and does nothing, foolishly thinking that it is the woman's Karma to suffer such, then the Buddhist is guilt of raping the woman as well as the rapist.

 

Even Modern Laws states the same - the person who plans a crime and a person who knows a crime but do not report it IS liable for punishment as well as the doer of the Crime.

 

If Buddhism agrees (for reasons to fight), Hindusm encourages (fighting adharmic) and Logic and Laws accepts (such battle as humane), then how many of you are guilty in the world and next of neglience and of not following what is required in Dharma?

 

Once again, I suggest those who do not have ability to fight, just support those who willing and whose who do not have ability or support, just don't hinder others with foolish notions of peace and tolerance. To me, such talk is a cowardice speech.

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I see the verse has been seriuosly misinterpretated. This is the thing what happens when people who re not realised, who are not in the line of the Brahma, Madhva gaudiya paprampara make the intepretation over the scriptures .

 

How can one say the sentense like "Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them." is similar to or same to the sentance like

so unnecessary are the scriptures to someone who has seen the truth

 

And then this age of kali where the poeple in genaral ( including vaishnawa or brahmana) have very low memory, its very well needed to refer them now and then to lead correct and dharmic life, this is quite evident i believe

 

Scriptures are important even for vaishnawa, he leads his and others life using them , however the usage coud be tangible or intangible.

 

hari hari bol

 

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Krishnadasa,

 

{{{ How can one say the sentense like "Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them." is similar to or same to the sentance like

so unnecessary are the scriptures to someone who has seen the truth }}}

 

I think you're not looking at it right. Prabhupada's translation says, "all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to someone"--that is, someone can be in the possession of ALL THE USES OF THE VEDAS--"who knows the purpose behind them". "Someone who has seen the truth" is someone who knows "the purposes behind [the Vedas]". So if you've seen the truth, you already have with you all the uses of the Vedas, and at that point, you personally do not need the Vedas anymore to study from (because you already have all that knowledge and more).

 

{{{ And then this age of kali where the poeple in genaral ( including vaishnawa or brahmana) have very low memory, its very well needed to refer them now and then to lead correct and dharmic life, this is quite evident i believe }}}

 

See this is the problem with Hindus today--they expect to be "led" to the truth. The truth isn't something anyone can be led to. The truth must be found by your very personal journey, maybe with assistance from scriptural sources. I'm sure you agree that in this kali age that you keep referring to, there is too much chance that the person who is "leading" another person to the truth is not actually a knower of truth himself.

 

{{{ Scriptures are important even for vaishnawa, he leads his and others life using them , however the usage coud be tangible or intangible }}}

 

Who says scriptures aren't important? My quote says scriptures are of no use to someone who has seen the truth, and the vast majority of people have NOT. Therefore, to these who are not knowers of the truth, scripture may be important.

 

All this confusion on your part displays that either you never really thought hard about my quote and just took it at face value or that you are just not able to comprehend well. Whatever the case, pleace construct a decent argument before wasting all that space again. A+ for effort. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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{{{ No, I'm saying bigotry should be returned with bigotry, respect with respect, love with love and such. You cannot expect Hindus to go and become tolerant toward adharmic people who openly question and riddicule Hindusm, could you? }}}

 

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi. Why is it wrong to question Hinduism? I'll agree that it may be wrong to riddicule it, I agree with that, but certainly it cannot be wrong to question it. Questioning it is one of the freedoms that even we as Hindus are alloted.

 

{{{ Knowing what to do and when to do is is vital in winning a battle - whether it is physical, mental or spiritual. Attacking without a plan (or proper knowledge) is stupidity, Not attacking at all (and take whatever comes in name of peace and blind tolerance) is cowardice. }}}

 

That's great. But here's something absurdly radical: RELIGION DOESNT HAVE TO BE A "BATTLE". In fact, religion is anything but a battle for Hinduism--it's a journey that everyone takes toward the truth. Your use of words like "attacking" and "cowardice" should have no place in religious discussions. And I know what your reply is going to be--"But those Muslims! They attack! They hate!" You know what? That's great. If they attack you, go ahead and defend yourself. If they attack India, it's okay that India defend herself. But what the RSS and Bajrang Dal does is by no definition "defense" because they willingly go out on the offense to attack Muslims in the name of Hinduism. In any case, Muslims, just like Hindus, are not pawns in some sort of super-oiled machine out to destroy anything they view as different. There are 120 million or more Muslims living in India, and have been living for quite some time. Have the vast majority not shown that they are willing to live in peace? Of course there will be members who don't want to live in peace with others, but those kinds of people can be found in ALL religions. Even Hinduism!

 

{{{ Wrong ... standing for one's own right IS NOT adharmic. Peace and Tolerance exists ONLY if BOTH SIDES give and take peacefully and with tolerance.

 

That is not happening now (or since Islam comes to India). }}}

 

I tend to disagree. There are millions of Muslims and Hindus living today in peace and tolerance of each other all over India. Only fundamentalist factions on either side go about screaming for each others' blood.

 

{{{ You don't see the logic because you do not understand Dharma.

 

[...]

 

Matter a fact, each person who sees adharmic activities and choose to ignore it, thinking that to fight it is adharmic and therefore, should blindly follow some notion of peace and tolerance ARE adharmic themselves. }}}

 

Wow, I could not have seen a more Christian viewpoint at some church gathering. Enlighten us, Sephiroth, what is dharma? What are adharmic activities? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Does meat-eating count as adharmic? If so, then the vast majority of Hindus are guilty.

 

{{{ Which means, if a Buddhist sees a Rapist trying to rape a woman and does nothing, foolishly thinking that it is the woman's Karma to suffer such, then the Buddhist is guilt of raping the woman as well as the rapist. }}}

 

Like Krishna said, inaction is also a source of karma. I'm not saying we do not act. I'm saying we act with peace and tolerance, and that means we do so even in the face of violence and intolerance. Making yourself above your opposition is honorable and noble, in every sense of the word. Of course if you're under violent attack from anyone, you have the right to defend yourself, but this defense is in no way in opposition to LIVING in peace and tolerance.

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