Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org
Sign in to follow this  
Guest guest

True bakthy only for formless god

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Vedas are the final authority. Purusha Shuktha in RigVeda speaks of Brahman - Virata Purusha. There you can see form of Virata Purusha clearly described. In Vedas, there is nowhere mentioned that Supreme Purusha is formless.

 

If you want to argue that Supreme Purusha is formless then come with proof from Vedas. Moreover if you havent read Purusha Shuktha read it from my other thread - Purusha Shuktha.

 

:) Hare Krishna

:) Om Namo Venkatesha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and guest u say formless love is supreme this is ridiculous. u say within its womb- if it is formless how can it have a womb? non-sensical. its like saying u have a loving relationship with a lightbulb, impossible. u can say u love that light (the impersonal brahmajyoti) but there can be no reciprocation. u can only conceive of bhakti in regards to bhagavan. bhakti is FOR bhagavan. not for nirguna.

 

even in rg veda, we chant b4 we go on the altar -om tat visnu paramam padam (FEET indicating form obviously). to say nirguna is higher is to limit bhagavan- only if he is saguna is to not limit him. he is independant in his desire and does not answer to u but can take form as he pleases.

 

manu dasa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Continue loving saguna god. Avoid making consclusions that it's greater love than loving a nirguna god. Instead focus on making the love unconditional to god. Explore what would come next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Love of nirguna brahman is pointless, as the nirguna brahman, being beyond duality by definition, doesn't even know you exist, what to speak of care about you or reciprocate with you.

Jai Ganesh

I am not sure if it is strickly true, let see what Shree Krishna says in Bhagvat Gita

vihaya kaman yah sarvan

pumams carati nihsprhah

nirmamo nirahankarah

sa santim adhigacchati

One who abandons all desires and becomes free from longing and the feeling of 'I' and 'my' attains peace. (2.71)

esa brahmi sthitih partha

nainam prapya vimuhyati

sthitvasyam anta-kale 'pi

brahma-nirvanam rcchati

O Arjuna, this is the Braahmee or superconscious state. Attaining this (state), one is no longer deluded. Gaining this state, even at the end of one's life, a person attains the Supreme. (2.72)

buddhya visuddhaya yukto

dhrtyatmanam niyamya ca

sabdadin visayams tyaktva

raga-dvesau vyudasya ca

Endowed with purified intellect, subduing the mind with resolve, turning away from sound and other objects of the senses, giving up likes and dislikes; and (18.51)

vivikta-sevi laghv-asi

yata-vak-kaya-manasah

dhyana-yoga-paro nityam

vairagyam samupasritah

Living in solitude, eating lightly, controlling the thought, word, and deed; ever absorbed in yoga of meditation, and taking refuge in detachment; and (18.52)

ahankaram balam darpam

kamam krodham parigraham

vimucya nirmamah santo

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

Relinquishing egotism, violence, pride, lust, anger, and desire for possession; free from the notion of "my", and peaceful; one becomes fit for attaining Brahman. (18.53)

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

arjuna uvaca

evam satata-yukta ye

bhaktas tvam paryupasate

ye capy aksaram avyaktam

tesam ke yoga-vittamah

Arjuna inquired: Which is considered to be more perfect, those who are properly engaged in Your devotional service, or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? (12.1)

ye tv aksaram anirdesyam

avyaktam paryupasate

sarvatra-gam acintyam ca

kuta-stham acalam dhruvam

sanniyamyendriya-gramam

sarvatra sama-buddhayah

te prapnuvanti mam eva

sarva-bhuta-hite ratah

But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, fixed and immovable--the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth--by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me. (12.3/4)

yat sankhyaih prapyate sthanam

tad yogair api gamyate

ekam sankhyam ca yogam ca

yah pasyati sa pasyati

Whatever goal a Samnyasi reaches, a Karma-yogi also reaches the same goal. One who sees the path of renunciation and the path of work as the same, really sees.(5.05)

sannyasas tu maha-baho

duhkham aptum ayogatah

yoga-yukto munir brahma

na cirenadhigacchati

But Samnyasa, O Arjuna, is difficult to attain without Karma-yoga. A Karma-yogi sage quickly attains Brahman.(5.06)

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

avyaktam paryupasate

 

But those who fully worship the unmanifested...

Specifically it states they do upasana to the avyakta (unmanifested). Nothing is mentioned about developing love for the nirguna brahman. Upasana comes from the words upa and asana which literally means "to bring one's seat close" to an object for the purpose of worshipping it.

 

Again my point was specifically about "love of nirguna brahman" and how it is pointless, as there can be no reciprocation of the love. Reciprocation of love would require perception of duality.

 

Krishna affirms this in the twelth chapter of the Gita when He states:

 

kleso 'dhikataras tesam

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. "

 

Why is it troublesome? Because there is no reciprocation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Specifically it states they do upasana to the avyakta (unmanifested). Nothing is mentioned about developing love for the nirguna brahman. Upasana comes from the words upa and asana which literally means "to bring one's seat close" to an object for the purpose of worshipping it.

Again my point was specifically about "love of nirguna brahman" and how it is pointless, as there can be no reciprocation of the love. Reciprocation of love would require perception of duality.

Krishna affirms this in the twelth chapter of the Gita when He states:

kleso 'dhikataras tesam

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

 

"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. "

Why is it troublesome? Because there is no reciprocation.

Jai Ganesh

We may miss the point or even find the path difficult but to think that Brahman realization is a state of ignorance is a bit naive. A sadhak perception may be to merge and become one with that but Brahman which is non-different from the supreme, is not devoid of perception, therefor a sincere sadhak who treads this path how ever difficult, can only do so with pure love and devotion. And the reward is as stated

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

Absorbed in Brahman, the serene one neither grieves nor desires; becoming impartial to all beings, one obtains My supreme devotion. (18.54)

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

We may miss the point or even find the path difficult but to think that Brahman realization is a state of ignorance is a bit naive.

I haven't made any such statement, so this type of discussion is pointless. It's failure of comprehension. That's why Vedic study begins with siksha, vyakarana, nirukti, etc., (vedangas). First comes grammar, definition and comprehension - then comes philosophy, logic and discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I haven't made any such statement, so this type of discussion is pointless. It's failure of comprehension. That's why Vedic study begins with siksha, vyakarana, nirukti, etc., (vedangas). First comes grammar, definition and comprehension - then comes philosophy, logic and discussion.

(Love of nirguna brahman is pointless, as the nirguna brahman, being beyond duality by definition, doesn't even know you exist, what to speak of care about you or reciprocate with you.)

Jai Ganesh

I am sorry I should have said I might have missed the point.

I drew conclusion from your above statement perhaps I was wrong but this statement drew my attention ", doesn't even know you exist what to speak of care about you or reciprocate with you." and thus my statement.

Pardon my ignorance in vyakaran and proper understanding but I can assure you it is not from want of trying.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

 

Again my point was specifically about "love of nirguna brahman" and how it is pointless, as there can be no reciprocation of the love. Reciprocation of love would require perception of duality.

 

Krishna affirms this in the twelth chapter of the Gita when He states:

 

kleso 'dhikataras tesam

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. "

 

Why is it troublesome? Because there is no reciprocation.

 

It is more precisely stated in Isha Upanishad. One must both. By loving the manifest as Him, one attains the immortal, which is ever unmanifest. And by knowing the ONE Atma, love automatically dawns.

 

14. He who knows both the Unmanifested and the destructible (Hiranyagarbha) together, transcends death by the (worship of) the destructible and attains immortality by the (worship of ) the Unmanifested.

 

(and also in Bhagavatam).

 

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

34. Even personalities like Lord Brahma and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible.

 

 

Yes, it is impossible to worship one's Self. How can you make it another without artificial imagination? But, although one cannot worship it as another does not mean that one gets immortality without realing the Self.

 

So, Lord teaches: To attain immortality one has to know the Anaadimatparam brahma who is ONE but appears as if divided in bodies.

 

 

13.13 Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;

Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

 

13.13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

 

13.17 Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;

Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

 

13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

 

 

And Lord also says:

 

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

13.23. The atma in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord maheshwarah and the Supreme Self.

 

 

 

Mandukya Upanishad

 

amaatrashchaturtho.avyavahaaryaH prapaJNchopashamaH shivo.advaita

evamoN^kaara Atmaiva saMvishatyAtmanA.a.atmAnaM ya evaM veda .. 12..

 

12. Letterless is the fourth, the Incommunicable, the end of phenomena, the Good, the One than Whom there is no other : thus is OM. He that knoweth is the Self and entereth by his self into the Self, he that knoweth, he that knoweth.

 

 

 

 

The Lord is love itself. He is not object of love. Shivo advaitam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Namaskar JN Das ji.

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji

 

 

Love of nirguna brahman is pointless, as the nirguna brahman, being beyond duality by definition, doesn't even know you exist, what to speak of care about you or reciprocate with you.

One who has known the Self He can only love the sarva -- the Saguna with all variety, else there would never be sama drishti.

 

Some do not comprehend what Lord means by Anya Devata. Such proclaim haughtily “My love for God only is correct”, without knowing the ONE who is capable of saying “I exist”. Do you know the one who cognizes others? Do you know the one without whom one cannot say “I” or “I love God”?

 

BRIHADARANYAKA-UPANISHAD Part 1

 

FOURTH BRAHMANA.

10.

-------

Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men should know this.

 

End of citation.

 

So, higher devotees worship and meditate with their mind on the Self. If “I am Atanu” knowledge is not there then “I love Lord” cannot arise. Love is non-existent then. If “I Exist” knowledge does not exist then “I am Atanu” does not exist. Then who loves whom? Further, if the Pragnya that is aware “I exist” is not there then existence itself vanishes. And finally, if the Turiya-Self does not exist then the Pragnya is not there.

 

Mandukya Upanishad

 

sarvaM hyetad.h brahmaayamAtmA brahma so.ayamaatmaa chatushhpaat.h .. 2..

 

yatra supto na kaJNchana kaamaM kaamayate na kaJNchana svapnaM pashyati tat.h sushhuptam.h . sushhuptasthaana ekiibhuutaH praGYaanaghana evaanandamayo hyaanandabhuk.h cheto mukhaH praaGYastR^itiiyaH paadaH .. 5..

 

eshha sarveshvaraH eshha sarvaGYa eshho.antaryaamyeshha yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaam.h .. 6..

 

naantaHpraGYaM na bahishhpraGYaM nobhayataHpraGYaM na praGYAnaghanaM na praGYaM naapraGYam.h | adR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNaM achintyamavyapadeshyamekaatmapratyayasaaraM prapaJNchopashamaM shaantaM shivamadvaitaM chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa viGYeyaH .. 7..

 

amaatrashchaturtho.avyavahaaryaH prapaJNchopashamaH shivo.advaita evamoN^kaara Atmaiva saMvishatyAtmanA.a.atmAnaM ya evaM veda .. 12..

 

2. All this is verily, Brahman. This self is Brahman. This same self has four quarters

 

5. Where one, being fast asleep, does not desire any desire whatsoever and does not see any dream whatsoever, that is deep sleep. The third quarter is prajna, whose sphere is the state of deep sleep, who has become one, who is verily, a mass of cognition, who is full of bliss and who experiences bliss, whose face is thought.

 

6. This is the lord of all, this is the knower of all, this is the inner controller; this is the source of all; this is the beginning and the end of beings.

 

7. Turiya is not that which cognises the internal, not that which cognises the external, not what cognises both of them, not a mass of cognition, not cognitive, not non-cognitive. It is unseen, incapable of being spoken of, unnameable, the essence of the knowledge of the one self, that into which the world is resolved, the peaceful, the benign, the non-dual, such, they think, is the fourth quarter. He is the self; He is to be known.

 

12. The fourth is that which has no elements, which cannot be spoken of, into which the world is resolved, benign, non-dual. Thus the syllable aum is the very self. He who knows it thus enters the self with his self.

 

So, without the shivoadvaitam Turiya - the indivisible Self, which has Pragnya, who only cognizes “I am”, no love is possible. He is the source of my “I”. How can “This Atanu” love a third object and say “I love God?”.

 

The Self is the Yoni of Brahman who is Param. But the Self is beyond understanding and beyond the definition of Param. Pragnya is Brahman and Pragnya is Sarvesvara. But shivoadvaitam is the Self --- one whole.

 

Pragnya is rooted in Turiya and Mind has sphurana from Sarvesvara Pragnya but the mind is not him. And limited mind thinks “I am something”, Although Mind has no intelligence apart from the ONE to effect cognition, it says “I am something”; “I love Lord”; “I am only correct”; “Others are deluded”. And funny that such a mind does not know the “I”.

 

Rishi Yajnvalkya taught Maitreyi: It is for the love of Self that one loves one's wife and everything else (including an image of God). If one does not have the wisdom to understand Rishi Yajnavalka, how will one understand Lord Krishna’s leela? How one comprehends the love of 16,000 gopis for the Lord and Lord’s love for them? Gopi’s surely do not indulge in illicit relationship by leaving their husbands at home and engaging in amorous past times with the Lord. All love Lord - the Self.

 

Shiva burnt Manmath who appeared as lust. But He re-installed Manmath as love in everyone’s heart. And He is everyone’s heart. All this is for explanation. But, there are no two individuals. Only Lord as Love is there. May wisdom be with you.

 

In summary, without knowing the Self which empowers one with awareness of “I am”, love to an imaginary external God is that only – an imagination that I am worshipping.

 

BRIHADARANYAKA-UPANISHAD Part 1

 

FOURTH BRAHMANA.

10.

-------

Now if a man worships another deity, thinking the deity is one and he another, he does not know. He is like a beast for the Devas. For verily, as many beasts nourish a man, thus does every man nourish the Devas. If only one beast is taken away, it is not pleasant; how much more when many are taken! Therefore it is not pleasant to the Devas that men should know this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In summary, without knowing the Self which empowers one with awareness of “I am”, love to an imaginary external God is that only – an imagination that I am worshipping.

Bhagavan's form is never imaginary. If that is your conclusion after reading the shastra then it is unfortunate.

 

Krishna's form is spiritual and supreme, foolish people consider it material:

 

 

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-maheshvaram

 

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be."

 

 

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

 

"Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme."

 

Worshipping other Devas is not the same as worshipping Krishna. The result is temporary and material:

 

 

 

kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah

prapadyante ’nya-devatah

tam tam niyamam asthaya

prakritya niyatah svaya

 

 

 

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."

 

 

 

antavat tu phalam tesam

tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam

devan deva-yajo yanti

mad-bhakta yanti mam api

 

"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet."

 

Arjuna asks Krishna what is higher, worshipping the avyakta (unmanifested) or Krishna's personal form. Krishna replies:

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

shraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect."

 

Krishna is beyond both the fallible and infallibe:

yasmat ksharam atito ’ham

aksharad api cottamah

ato ’smi loke vede ca

prathitah purushottamah

"Because I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jai Ganesh

Pranam Atanuji

Good to hear from you again.

It is not my place to argue the concept of worship to formless is better or otherwise.

But what intrigued me was this statement made by JN dasji and I quote here again "Love of nirguna Brahman is pointless, as the nirguna Brahman, being beyond duality by definition, doesn't even know you exist, what to speak of care about you or reciprocate with you". Unquote

There are two points here that have come to my mind.

One the adwaita by definition means only one there for there would not be any other consideration, that bit I can understand but he is superimposing this concept on Brahman where else this upadhi is of the Jiva.

But his second statement is even more radical "doesn’t even know you exist or care about you etc."

It is to this point I sought clarification privately, unfortunately it has not been forthcoming.

In order to prove our concept we try to go to any length to prove others wrong even to the extent that Brahman which is described as supreme, to be unaware of our existence after adwaita moksha,( that may be true for individual jivas) but how can Brahman not know?

Bg

One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.(14.26

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.(14.27)

If I may use a paradox here The supreme is described as Nirguna and by definition it means devoid of quality yet we know if mother Sarasvati were to describe the qualities of the supreme for eternity even than she would not be able to fully describe them all

Jai Shree Krishna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In order to prove our concept we try to go to any length to prove others wrong even to the extent that Brahman which is described as supreme, to be unaware of our existence after adwaita moksha,( that may be true for individual jivas) but how can Brahman not know?

Of course Brahman does know, and that is because Brahman is purushottama, who is eternally individual yet simultaneously one with everything. This is different to the advaitic conception of brahman. Accoridng to the advaitic conclusion, brahman is beyond all duality. Duality according to advaita is only perceived due to maya, and brahman must be beyond maya. Thus brahman will have no perception of the nonexistent (i.e. the individuality which includes you and me). So whether you pray or don't pray, it doesn't make a difference to that which is absolutely nondual, beyond maya, and free from perception of any individuality.

 

This is just one of the defects of advaita vada, but that is an entirely different topic which many people become offended by.

 

It is to this point I sought clarification privately, unfortunately it has not been forthcoming.

Unfortunately I don't have enough time to participate fully in these forums, but if I don't answer something you can keep reminding me and I will eventually get to answering whatever I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

 

Of course Brahman does know, and that is because Brahman is purushottama, who is eternally individual yet simultaneously one with everything. This is different to the advaitic conception of brahman. Accoridng to the advaitic conclusion, brahman is beyond all duality. Duality according to advaita is only perceived due to maya, and brahman must be beyond maya. Thus brahman will have no perception of the nonexistent (i.e. the individuality which includes you and me). So whether you pray or don't pray, it doesn't make a difference to that which is absolutely nondual, beyond maya, and free from perception of any individuality.

 

 

Actually there is no defect if one understands properly.

 

"This Immutable ... is never seen, but is the Witness;... It is never thought, but is the Thinker; It is never known, but is the Knower." Br. Up. 3.7.23

 

Any objective characterization of Brahman confines It to the level of the known. This is true even with notions such as existence, nirguna/saguna, etc, God/devotee, etc. From the standpoint of experience or expression, duality may be identified onto Brahman, which the Dvaitin takes as defining features of Brahman and the Advaitin takes as apparent features of Brahman. The Dvaitin says these are eternal features for they are eternally to be seen, and the Advaitin says they are non-eternal since they belong to the category of the known and can be transcended through Self-knowledge. You all must be aware of the Snake-rope or mirage analogies (and I am sure have counter ones!).

 

The next couple of paras give the gist of our differences: you may not catch it on first reading.

 

In the second sense, Brahman is Nirguna (note same terminology) or non-dual as the experiencer or Witness of all expression and states. Here Brahman is the Knower, beyond identification of any kind. The Upanishads declare as "Not this, not this", denying all possible identifiers including Individual, etc.

 

When you sleep, the experience or lack of it is Nirguna (or void), and when awake, it is Saguna/consciousness. Both of these are non-eternal objective states of Being. BUT You are the constant "Witness" of both states. The You is unchanging Reality beyond identification and all the states of experience and expression are superimpositions upon that YOU. (The Dvaitin states the same in a different way). This is akin to the Advaitic conception of Brahman: it is NOT a contradiction of the Dvaitin's statements at the levels of experience/expression but an assertion that the finality is in the "YOU" and not in "You are awake/asleep".

 

God and I, prayer and fulfillment, etc. all are there and real but at the level of the "Play"/the Known. Brahman is the One Player; but if you (the character) try to make another character out of Brahman, gladly He will be, but then the Advaitin says "All part of the Play".

 

But all said and done, Advaita is a practical challenge of religion, not for mere theoretical argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

 

And the moment the nondual brahman perceives duality he is no longer nondual.

 

The moment duality is admitted, the non-dual is subjugated and the level is ignorance.

 

The moment a tree is seen, Brahman is lost. The moment individuality and perception become realities, there is no Brahman except in imagination. The moment Brahman is realized, there is no I and Thou except in imagination.

 

Advaita subjugates duality to the lower status of ignorance and not absolute status of non-existence. It is non-existence in the context of Brahman/Knower but existence in the context of Maya or ignorance. Advaita does not say "The world is not" and stop there. It tells us to find the reality behind (that appears as) the world, which is Brahman. It does not say that individuality is non-existent from the standpoint of perception/expression but tells that the Self (the reality behind the individuality and universe) is non-dual.

 

Advaita refutes any attempt to draw a line of demarcation between Brahman and what in Maya is presumed as reality. There is NO place for both: THE REALITY IS ONE: from the standpoint of individual knowledge, the mind works in the context of Maya (I, Thou) or in the context of Brahman (~God and God alone). BUT the Self is non-dual, all the same.

 

[To bring what is referred to as "Not this" to the level of Knower already gets the Advaitin in word trouble, but we are forced to do this in order to try our best to hold the conversation. If the Advaitin is silent with regard to the non-dual truth (like the Buddha), there is trouble with the atheists; if the Advaitin talks, he is caught with the Dvaitin. ]

 

(I will be out for the rest of the week and can't keep the talk alive if further directed to me.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

 

(I will be out for the rest of the week and can't keep the talk alive if further directed to me.)

 

I just came back to check if there was any reply, since I am not trying to escape after the last word. That is not my intention. However pretty much the arguments are same beyond this; we will be running around the bush, trying to trip the other. However this thread seems to have "eternal life", so I am sure the process will continue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Bhagavan's form is never imaginary. If that is your conclusion after reading the shastra then it is unfortunate.

 

 

 

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-maheshvaram

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Jn Das Ji Namaskar,

 

What makes you think that I think that Bhagwan's form is imaginary? We know that He is none other than Mahesvara. Some people however think that there are many mahesvaras.

 

 

The point I made earlier was that there has to be a seer to cognize. Who is that seer? Knowing the seer, one automatically loses the doership. Because Bhagwan himself is the seer. In so-called you there is no faculty that can cognise. A dead body cannot say "I". It cannot say "Let me live".

Now check up who says "I" in you? And then let us exchange notes, whether it has form or not.

 

But the consciousness can manifest any form.

 

That is all.

 

 

And Turiya Brahman has all powers to enjoy and know all states (Pragnya, Shushupti, and Jagrat) without losing Turiya state. Experience it and then comment. What is the use of theory?

 

Regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Namaskar

 

 

the Self (the reality behind the individuality and universe) is non-dual.

 

 

(I will be out for the rest of the week and can't keep the talk alive if further directed to me.)

 

Yes, the Self is non-dual. It is evident in even deep sleep when senses are absorbed in pure bliss Pragnya, who is Sarvesvara. His face (form) is thoughts (Taijassa), which gives rise to agnivaisvanaro --- apparently many but truly ONE.

 

13.17 Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;

Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

 

 

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

13.23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.

 

18.20 Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

18.20. That by which one sees the one indestructible Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

 

 

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

18.21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

 

Om

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Dandavat pranams

 

Here are some of my notes on your discussion.

 

The soul is Brahman but not God. When the living entity is called Brahman he is certainly not the supreme Brahman and it will never merge into the supreme Brahman. Rather it will eternally keep its personality as Krisha explains this to Arjuna.

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

aksaram brahma paramam

svabhavo 'dhyatmam ucyate

bhuta-bhavodbhava-karo

visargah karma-samjnitah

The Supreme Lord said, The indestructible, transcendental living entity is called Brahman, and his eternal nature is called the self. Action pertaining to the development of these material bodies is called karma, or fruitive activities.

 

All the individual souls are Brahman but never become one with the supreme Brahman

 

na tvevAhaM jAtu nAsaM na tvaM neme janAdhipAH

na chaiva na bhavishhyAmaH sarve vayamataH param.h

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (Bg 2.12)

 

This plurality certainly does not refer to bodily existence what was already before condemned by Krishna but rather it refers to the spiritual plurality - the individual souls.

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

“He is the one supreme eternal being among all eternal beings, and the one supreme conscious being among all conscious beings. He alone is fulfilling the desires of everyone.” (Katho Upanisad 2.13) and (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.10)

 

Therefor, Brahman never becomes multiplied into many souls that are now conditioned? Why would Brahman accept suffering of the material world? How is it possible for Him to be covered by illusion and forgetfulness?

 

maitreya uvaca

seyam bhagavato maya

yan nayena virudhyate

isvarasya vimuktasya

karpanyam uta bandhanam

Brahman, or the Personality of Godhead, is overcome by illusion, or mAyA, and at the same time they maintain that He is unconditioned. This is against all logic. (Bhagavatam 3.7.9)

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

 

THE THREE FEATURES OF THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH

vadanti tat tattva vidas

tattvam yaj gyanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti

bhagavan iti sabdyate

 

“The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

 

Brahman

jneyam yat tat pravaksyami

yaj jnatvamrtam asnute

anadi mat-param brahma

na sat tan nasad ucyate

I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. Brahman, the spirit, beginningless and subordinate to Me, lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world. (Bg 13.13)

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness. (Bg 14.27)

 

tanhara angera sudha kirana-mandala

upanisat kahe tanre brahma sunirmala

What the Upanisads call the impersonal Brahman is but the realm of the glowing effulgence of the Supreme Person. (Cc. Adi. 2.12)

 

Paramatma

drishtam srutam bhuta-bhavad-bhavishyat

sthasnus carishnur mahad alpakam ca

vinacyutad vastu taram na vacyam

sa eva sarvam paramatma-bhutah

Nothing can be said to exist independent of Lord Acyuta—nothing heard or seen, nothing in the past, present or future, nothing moving or unmoving, great or small. He indeed is everything, for He is the Supreme Soul. (Bhagavatam 10.46.43)

 

bandhur atmatmanas tasya

yenatmaivatmana jitah

anatmanas tu satrutve

vartetatmaiva satru-vat

For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same. (Bg 6.7)

 

Bhagavan

om tad visno paramam padam sada

pasyanti surayah diviva caksur-atatam

tad vipraso vipanyavo jagrvamsah

samindhate visnor yat paramam padam

The supreme abode of Lord Visnu, or the lotus feet of Lord Visnu, is spread all around like the sunlight in the sky. Great demigods and saintly persons always see that supreme abode, recognizing Him as the highest truth. Spiritually awake souls learned in transcendental understanding glorify the Lord and make that abode more brilliant. (Rg Veda 1.22.20,21)

 

ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam

indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge

All these incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of plenary portions of the Supreme Lord, but Lord Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All the other incarnations appear whenever there is a disturbance created by the enemies of Indra. (Bhag. 1.3.28)

 

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

Krsna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has a transcendental form of eternal bliss and knwledge. He is the origin of all and the cause of all causes. (Brahma-samhita 5.1)

 

suta uvaca

yam brahma varunendra-rudra-marutah stunvanti divyaih stavair

vedaih sanga-.-kramopanisadair gayanti yam sama-gah

dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yogino

yasyantam na viduh surasura-gana devaya tasmai namah

I offer my obeisances unto Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahma, Rudra, Indra, Varuna and all the other demigods glorify Him by chanting transcendental hymns and reciting the Vedas and Upanisads. He is the Supreme Person of whom the chanters of the Sama Veda always sing. The perfected yogis see Him within their minds after fixing themselves in trance and absorbing themselves within him. His limit can never be found by any demigod or demon. (Bhag. 12.13.1)

 

The renunciation of advaitins = no perfection

na karmanam anarambhan

naiskarmyam puruso 'snute

na ca sannyasanad eva

siddhim samadhigacchati

Not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection. (Bg 3.4)

 

SURRENDER OF ONE IN KNOWLEDGE

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts. (Bg 10.8)

 

Devotees are nothing less then mayavadis

jara-marana-moksaya

mam asritya yatanti ye

te brahma tad viduh krtsnam

adhyatmam karma cakhilam

Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old age and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental activities. Bg 7.29

 

THE BEST ACIVITY

arjuna uvaca

evam satata-yukta ye

bhaktas tvam paryupasate

ye capy aksaram avyaktam

tesam ke yoga-vittamah

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

 

Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: 'He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be the most perfect.'" (Bhagavad-gita 12.1,2)

 

WHO CAN UNDERSTAN THE IMPORTANCE OF BHAKTI AND KRISHNA - NOT THE ADVAITIN

 

sa evayam mayA te 'dya

yogah prokta purAranah

bhakto 'si me sakhA ceti

rahasyam hy etad uttamam

That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science. (Bg 4.3)

 

WHO CANNOT UNDERSTAND AND DON'T SURRENDER IS CALLED

 

mayaya apahrita jnani

one whose knowledge is stolen by illusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Maitrayana-brahmana Up. 6.35: They who rise up out of the material energy, when they have entered into the light of glory (Brahman), appear like so many flame crests in a track of fire.

 

Here there is no oneness

 

Brahman is everywhere. But Krishna don't wants us to think about Brahman.

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: 'He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be the most perfect.'" (Bhagavad-gita 12.1,2)

 

anor aniyan mahato mahiyan

atmasya jantor nihito guhayam

tam akratuh pasyati vita-soko

dhatuh prasadan mahimanam atmanah

"Both the Supersoul [Paramatma] and the atomic soul [jivatma] are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul."

 

This above sloka is enough clear to understand that there is no oneness and that the Supresoul (Vibhu-atma) is supreior to the jiva-atma or anu-atma. They are both eternally existing being unchangeable.

 

na jayate mriyate va kadacin

nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah

ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano

na hanyate hanyamane sarire

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. (Bg 2.20)

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetanam -Katha 2.2.13

"He is the eternal 'nityo' among the eternals 'nityanam', the conscious 'cetanas' among the (many) conscious 'cetanam'."

 

aninas catma badhyate bhoktr-bhavat jnatva devam mucyate sarva-pasaih

"The soul, not being the Lord, is bound due to being an enjoyer. By knowing the Lord 'devam', he is freed from all distress." -Svetasvatar Upanisad (1.9)

 

muktir hitvanyatha-rupam

svarupena vyavasthitih

Liberation means being situated in one's eternal original form, which he attains after giving up the changeable gross and subtle bodies.' [sB 2.10.6]

 

kleso 'dhikataras tesham

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. (Bg 12.5)

 

Mundaka Up. 2.2.3: The Upanisads is the bow, the self is the person sharpened by devotion, and as the arrow does not become one with the target he will attain Brahman but not become one.

 

Mandukya Up. 3.1.31: "This liberated soul becomes like (samyam upaiti) the Supreme Brahman (niranjanah paramam), and not actually the Supreme Brahman. He reaches the highest similarity.

 

Katha Up. 1.1.20: Yamaraja to Naciketa: "Ayam asti nayam asti. Is there a person superior to the liberated souls?" Yamaraja answered; "Indeed."

 

Mundaka Up. 1.2.13 (and 3.1.3): By the knowledge given by the guru one comes to the eternal true golden coloured Person, higher than the high imperishable, the highest Immortal, the Source of the brahmajyoti (brahma-yonim) . The highest immortal source. No need of sun, moon, stars, fire in the highest home of Brahman: worship that person.

 

Katha Up. 1.3.10: Higher than senses >sense objects >mind >buddhi >soul >avyakta.

Then it says: avyakta purusah para purusa na param kincit sa kastha para gatah. The Purusa, the Personality of Godhead, is superior to the Avyakta. He is the ultimate Entity beyond Avyakta, the supreme goal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...