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True bakthy only for formless god

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Your conclusion with the BG quote is for the "average emobdied human being" as recognized by krishna, for whom spiritual self-realization is expected to be difficult.

 

The BG 13.28 referred by you mentions the immortality of the soul, and asks for spiritual experience as a different from the mortal body. The sloka plays down the difference of Supersoul and individual soul, and ask one to see supersoul accompanying the individual soul in all bodies.

 

No vedic references for your conclusion:

"Very clear, the individuality of the soul remains forever. This is the conclusion of all other scriptures as well, which it seems you don't accept because of your foolishness. "

 

 

You mention

"Therefor, the real meaning of nirguna is 'having no material qualities but rather spiritual qualities'. This explanation is neither contradictory to Gita nor to any other reveled scriptures and it is therefor, the only possible, sensible and spiritual explanation. "

 

This the spirtuality in you talking with no experience, speaking from a mind only good for mundane reasoning. Let's accept that Krishna lived in body form, let's accept that he was nirguna even as he lived, let's accept that the spirituality in krishna is eternal. Krishna spoke the truth krishna experienced in all the perfection of sat-chit-ananda.

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Sarvabhooteshu yenaikam bhaavamavyayameekshate;

Avibhaktam vibhakteshu tajjnaanam viddhi saattwikam.

 

20. That by which one sees the one indestructible Reality in all beings, not separate in all the separate beings—know thou that knowledge to be Sattwic (pure).

 

Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

 

21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

 

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Brahmaarpanam brahmahavirbrahmaagnau brahmanaa hutam;

Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarmasamaadhinaa.

 

 

24. Brahman is the oblation; Brahman is the melted butter (ghee); by Brahman is the oblation poured into the fire of Brahman; Brahman verily shall be reached by him who always sees Brahman in action.

 

 

 

One must see Brahman and Brahman.

 

 

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*******Let's recongize krishna lived in material world & he spoke BG as nirguna *********

 

 

Excellent. I will only add that Lord krishna spoke both as born and as unborn.

 

 

He said I am unborn eternal. At the same time he also said: "I and you have had several births, I know them all".

 

 

 

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Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

 

21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

** krishna spoke both as born and as unborn.

He said I am unborn eternal. At the same time he also said: "I and you have had several births, I know them all".

# I have no any problem to understand this. Krishna in the Bg 4.6 uses the term atma-mayaya to explain His appearance. Atma-mayaya means "by My internal energy:. Krishna's birth is extraordinary not like ours. He does not appear by force like we do because of our karma, nor He is subject to the modes of material nature.

 

I WROTE: the real meaning of nirguna is 'having no material qualities but rather spiritual qualities'. This explanation is neither contradictory to Gita nor to any other reveled scriptures and it is therefor, the only possible, sensible and spiritual explanation. "

** This the spirituality in you talking with no experience, speaking from a mind only good for mundane reasoning. Let's accept that Krishna lived in body form, let's accept that he was nirguna even as he lived, let's accept that the spirituality in krishna is eternal.

# Sorry, but you are again speaking nonsense, mental speculation that is not in the satra. To say that 'Krishna lived within body form' is completely. The Kurma purana clearly says: deha-dehi-vibhedo 'yam nesvare vidyate kvacit. This means that there is no difference in Krishna, the Supreme Lord, between Himself and His body. Therefore, if you accept His self as nirguna or transcendental then you should also accept His form as transcendental, otherwise you contradicting the sastra. And one who contradicts or even rejects the scriptures is called an atheist.

 

** Krishna spoke the truth Krishna experienced in all the perfection of sat-chit-ananda.

# Yes, Krishna spoke the truth that He experienced in His sat-chit-ananda-vigraha. You leave out the word vigraha - form. If you quote satra you should know it well. The vigraha or form of Krishna is sat-chit-ananda as this is mentioned in the Brahma-samhita [bs. 5.1] spoken by one of the greatest spiritual authorities Brahma.

 

isvarah paramah krishnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

"'Krishna, who is known as Govinda, is the supreme controller. He has an eternal, blissful, spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin, for He is the prime cause of all causes.'

 

I think it would be very good for you to read the whole Brahma-samhita.

 

** Avyaktam vyaktimaapannam manyante maamabuddhayah;

Param bhaavamajaananto mamaavyayamanuttamam.

 

24. The foolish think of Me, the Unmanifest, as having manifestation, knowing not My higher, immutable and most excellent nature.

 

# Not even Shankaracarya translated this sloka in this way. Swami Gambhirananda who is a big advaitin puts this Bhagavat gita verse in the following way.

"The unintelligent, unaware of My supreme state which is immutable and unsurpassable, think of Me as the unmanifest that has become manifest.

 

So, what do you think, who is meditating on Krishna as the unmanifest that has become manifest. Whoever is that is UNINTELLIGENT.

 

** Naaham prakaashah sarvasya yogamaayaasamaavritah;

Moodho’yam naabhijaanaati loko maamajamavyayam.

 

25. I am not manifest to all (as I am), being covered by the Yoga Maya. This deluded world does not know Me, the unborn and imperishable.

 

# The same sloka by Swami Gambhirananda gives reason, as he says for the ignorance of the unintelligent.

 

Being enveloped by yoga-maya, I do not become manifested to all. This deluded world does not know Me who am birthless and undecaying.

 

# I want to worn you to be very careful what you think about devotees. I am sure that your opinion is that Krishna when saying 'foolish' - mudha, he is speaking about His devotees - bhaktas. But are you completely sure in that? Let see the different meanings of the word mudha. It means: stupefied , bewildered , perplexed , confused , uncertain, foolish , dull , silly , simple, indolent, wrong etc. So, if you think Krishna is describing His devotees as mudhas you are very much mistaken.

Anyway, let see how Krishna comes to this point to speak about foolish people - mudhas. In the Bg 7.20 Krishna is first of all speaking about demigod worshipers who He considers less intelligent - their intelligence is stolen – alpha-medhasa. He continues to speak about them till the verse 23.

In the sloka 24 the word abuddhaya is used which is even stronger word then that used for demigod worshipers. Thus abuddhaya means actually no intelligence. These mudhas - foolish people cannot realize or even understand (na abhijanati) Krishna because they are covered by his internal potency yogamaya (Bg 7.25). This yogamaya is removed only by Krishna when one serves Him with devotion. Therefore, as Krishna say the only way to understand Him is through bhakti

 

bhaktya mam abhijanati

yavan yas casmi tattvatah

tato mam tattvato jnatva

visate tad-anantaram

"One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God". (Bg 18.55)

 

So, why would Krshna ever call his devotees fools? Actually, everywhere in the Gita He is very much praising them, He likes them the most. Therefore, the natural conclusion is that the Bg 7.24,25 verses don't refer to the bhaktas at all.

So, let's see now who are those fools - mudhas. The nature of the mudhas that are mentioned in Bg 7.5 is to deride Krishna:

 

avajananti mam mudha

manushim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be. (Bg 9.11)

 

This certainly refers to the materialists but could easily refer to the advaitins as well.

 

yo vetti bhautikam deham

krishnasya paramatmanah

sa sarvasmad bahish-karyah

srauta-smarta-vidhanatah

mukham tasyavalokyapi

sa-celam snanam acaret

"One who considers the body of Krishna to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the sruti and the smriti. And if one by chance sees his face, one should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Krishna because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation." (Brihad-vishnu-smriti)

 

Therefor, the people described in the sloka 24, 25 are certainly not the bhaktas but rather the advaitins and. And actually the proper translation of those slokas make this point much more easy to understand.

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

 

naham prakasah sarvasya

yoga-maya-samavritah

mudho 'yam nabhijanati

loko mam ajam avyayam

I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible. (Bg 7.24,25)

 

That the advaitins cannot understand Krishna is also described in other Vedic literatures.

 

tvam sila-rupa-caritaih parama-prakrishtaih

sattvena sattvikataya prabalais ca sastraih

prakhyata-daiva-paramartha-vidam matais ca

naivasura-prakritayah prabhavanti boddhum

"My dear Lord, devotees like Vyasadeva and Narada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedanta and the Upanishads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." (Stotra-ratna 12)

 

In Bg 7.29 it is mentioned mam-asritya or taking shelter of mam-Me, Krishna for the purpose of attaining moksaya-liberation. Taking the shelter of Krishna and serving Him is the highest perfection.

 

bhaktya mam abhijanati

yavan yas casmi tattvatah

tato mam tattvato jnatva

visate tad-anantaram

"One can understand Me, Krishna as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God". (Bg 18.55)

 

** Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

# Rajasic people have rajasic knowledge. They like to work, enjoy and so their understanding of the soul is as same with the body. This is what is described in the above sloka. The Vaishnavas are qualified brahmanas. And the brahmana’s vision is described in the Gita. They are aware of the presence of the soul in every living entity. Pandita sama darshina.

 

To see all the souls as individual living entities is the ultimate conclusion of the Gita. This I already clarified before.

 

na tvevAhaM jAtu nAsaM na tvaM neme janAdhipAH

na chaiva na bhavishhyAmaH sarve vayamataH param.h

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (Bg 2.12)

 

This plurality certainly does not refer to bodily existence what was already before condemned by Krishna but rather it refers to the spiritual plurality - the individual souls.

 

Brahmaarpanam brahmahavirbrahmaagnau brahmanaa hutam;

Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarmasamaadhinaa.

24. Brahman is the oblation; Brahman is the melted butter (ghee); by Brahman is the oblation poured into the fire of Brahman; Brahman verily shall be reached by him who always sees Brahman in action.

 

One must see Brahman and Brahman.

 

# Yes, Brahman is everywhere. But Krishna don't wants us to think about Brahman.

 

# sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: 'He whose mind is fixed on My personal form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be the most perfect.'" (Bhagavad-gita 12.1,2)

 

You many times write Vaisnavas are on the mundane platform of life that would mean to live in dualities of delusion, However Krishna says:

 

yesham tv anta-gatam papam

jananam punya-karmanam

te dvandva-moha-nirmukta

bhajante mam dridha-vratah

"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination." (Bg 7.28)

 

NOTE: bhajante—engage in devotional service, worship; mam—to Me, Krishna; dridha-vratah—with determination.

 

Do you have this qualification? If not you should come up to the proper standard and gradually you will realize Krishna. One who realized Brahman is only in the very beginning of spiritual life, an immature spiritualist. This is mentioned by Krishna in the [bg. 18.54]:

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service (bhakti) unto Me, Krishna.

 

To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or devotee, one has to go still further, to become engaged in pure devotional service.

 

Gauranga Nityananda

 

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Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

 

21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

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************

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. (Bg 12.2)

 

So, fix your mind on Krishnas form and become the most perfect.

************

 

 

Ha Ha. Why should one fix mind on supreme personality of god head and not on God?

 

 

These guys translate Bhagawan as Supreme Personality of God Head. Pompous.

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"Ha Ha. Why should one fix mind on supreme personality of god head and not on God?"

 

god means almost nothing, god is everything.. we have to fix our mind specifically on the supreme to be liberated by him

 

"These guys translate Bhagawan as Supreme Personality of God Head"

 

yes.. bhagavan means "who has bhaja".. who has all opulences. So who's the one with all opulences if not the Supreme Personality?

 

are you atheist?

 

 

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Nirguna, formlessness is Bramhan, god & even your own spirituality.

 

Krishna speaks the truth as he experienced in his life, as he says in BG that he's nirguna, above the three gunas.

 

Krishna refers to demi-gods as those who are saguna. All leading gods and divine personalities are considered as nirguna bramhna, if they are worshiped by the vedics. This can be seen in the god's saharsranama and several other slokas for the god. Thus the god while having a name favourite to the localalites, escapes the status of a demi-god as it's worshiped as formless.

 

The vaishnavas are born to bring krishna to a demi-god status. Krishna speaks in BG that he's nirguna above the three gunas. Vaishnavas want to consider him as saguna, and bring Krishna to the demi-god status.

 

I think this is not a worry. The BG is clear and unambigous to understand for oneself. One doesn't have to depend on a vaishnava to understand BG & degrade krishna to a demi-god status.

 

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Krishna speaks the truth as he experienced in his life, as he says in BG that he's nirguna, above the three gunas.

--krsna is nirguna in material sense and saguna in spiritual sense. Krsna is the name most full of qualities in the universe. Krsna is the all attractive, the one who has all attractions, all transcendental attractive qualities (so he's also bhagavad.. or bhagavan.... the one who possess all opulences)

 

Krishna refers to demi-gods as those who are saguna

--again... most gods are liberated souls or eternally liberated souls... so they are nirguna in the sense that they are not conditioned by any material feature.. but they're saguna because they're full of transcenendetal qalities

 

Thus the god while having a name favourite to the localalites, escapes the status of a demi-god as it's worshiped as formless.

--god has nothing to escape. The ones who has to escape from the gross misconceptions that, to be transcendental, god has to be actually nothing, are us... God is simultaneously brahman and bhagavan.

Brahman because he's omnipervadent, bhagavan because he's supreme. And supreme has alle the "sahastra"(1000) qualities and infinite more..

 

The vaishnavas are born to bring krishna to a demi-god status.

--another failed attempt to discredite vaishnavism.... :-)

 

Krishna speaks in BG that he's nirguna above the three gunas.

--yes... above the three material gunas and full of infinite transcendental gunas. God is EVERYTHING at the stage of perfection

 

The BG is clear and unambigous to understand for oneself.

--of course...

 

One doesn't have to depend on a vaishnava to understand BG

--no. simply some intelligence is required

 

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** Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

 

21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

# You, advaitins really don't have any intelligence. Just as Krishna says abhuddhaya. You cannot understand the spiritual oneness and difference of all the living entities and God. Because you reject the scriptural references that speak about spiritual duality you are just like atheists.

Anyway, the above verse describes the qualitative oneness of all living entities. They are all sat-cit-ananda. However, this doesn't mean at all that they will all merge into 'one' loosing their identity. Nor they were ever 'one'. There are lot of scriptural references that support this.

 

First of all, there are two kinds of souls -- namely the minute particle soul (anu-atma) and the Supersoul (vibhu-atma). This is confirmed in the Katha Upanishad (1.2.20):

 

anor aniyan mahato mahiyan

atmasya jantor nihito guhayam

tam akratuh pasyati vita-soko

dhatuh prasadan mahimanam atmanah

"Both the Supersoul [Paramatma] and the atomic soul [jivatma] are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul."

 

This above sloka is enough clear to understand that there is no oneness and that the Supresoul (Vibhu-atma) is supreior to the jiva-atma or anu-atma. They are both eternally existing being unchangeable.

 

na jayate mriyate va kadacin

nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah

ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano

na hanyate hanyamane sarire

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. (Bg 2.20)

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetanam -Katha 2.2.13

"He is the eternal 'nityo' among the eternals 'nityanam', the conscious 'cetanas' among the (many) conscious 'cetanam'."

 

aninas catma badhyate bhoktr-bhavat jnatva devam mucyate sarva-pasaih

"The soul, not being the Lord, is bound due to being an enjoyer. By knowing the Lord 'devam', he is freed from all distress." -Svetasvatar Upanisad (1.9)

 

All these quotes speak about spiritual duality what doesn't exclude qualitative oneness of all the souls. Qualitatively all are one and simultaneously they are all individuals, existing eternally.

 

na tv evaham jatu nasam

na tvam neme janadhipah

na caiva na bhavishyamah

sarve vayam atah param

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (Bg 2 12)

 

muktir hitvanyatha-rupam

svarupena vyavasthitih

Liberation means being situated in one's eternal original form, which he attains after giving up the changeable gross and subtle bodies.' [sB 2.10.6]

 

In the (Bg 2.12) Krishna certailny don't speak about the bodies. There was never a time when all the personalities did not exist. As they exist now they will also always exist as personalities in the future. sarve vayam -- all of us; bhavishyamah -- shall exist; atah param -- hereafter. Why would Krishna say this for the bodies if all the bodies will be finished in eighteen days of the Kurukshetra war? Therefore, here He also speaks about the eternal individual existence of all the spirit souls. This knowledge is not rajasic but transcendental, right there in the Gita spoken by Krishna.

 

But again this doesn't exclude the qualitative oneness of all the living entities. This understanding is called acintya bheda-abedha tattva - the inconceivable oneness and difference. There is qualitative oneness and simultaneously a quantitative difference. Just like the drop of the ocean is never equal to the whole ocean; the atom of the sun ray is not the sun; the spark of the fire is not equal to the whole fire. Thus all the statements like "tat tvam asi", "ayam atma brahman", etc. refer only to qualitative oneness as in case of cause and effect.

 

** These guys translate Bhagawan as Supreme Personality of God Head. Pompous.

 

# Bhagavan, Sri Krishna describes Himself in the Bg 8.8 as paramam-Supreme; purushma-Personality of Godhead; divyam-transcendental. Therefore, it is not a fault to translate Bhagavan as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krishna is called Godhead because He is deva-deva—the Lord of all demigods (Bg 10.15). In the word Bhagavan all the other names of God are there because Bhagvan means the possessor of all opulence’s. (See below the definition of Bhagavan by Parashara Muni)

 

To use the word Supreme Personality of Godhead is more specific. It is more clearly referring to Bhagavan, Sri Krishna then the word God that can refer to any of His three aspects as brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. So, Krishna is Bhagavan. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

** Why should one fix [the] mind on [the] supreme personality of god head and not on God?"

After above given definition of the purusham divyam - Supreme Personality, let 's see the answer to this question in the Gita sloka 8.8

 

abhyasa-yoga-yuktena

cetasa nanya-gamina

paramam purusham divyam

yati parthanucintayan

He who meditates on Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead (paramam purusham divyam), his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Partha, is sure to reach Me.

 

 

This Supreme Person is in His eternal abode.

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam

yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah

tam eva cadyam purusham prapadye

yatah pravrittih prasrita purani

one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality of Godhead from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial. (Bg 15.4)

 

(prapadye implies two presons. This is in the spiritual abode, obviously not the Brahman.)

 

Om tad visnoh paramam padam (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

"The lotus feet of Vishnu are the supreme destination."

 

All these verses confirm the spiritual duality or the eternal existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead on who the living entity should meditate and surrender (prapadye) to Him in order to go back to the siritual world.

 

 

Here are some more details about Brahman and Bhagavan. Parashara Muni, the father of Vyasadeva gives the following definition of Bhagavan

 

aisvaryasya samagrasya

viryasya yasasah sriyah

jnana-vairagyayos caiva

sannam bhagam itingana

The Supreme Personality who possesses all riches, all strength, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation is called Bhagavan.

(Visnu Purana 6.5.47)

 

The Brahman feature of God has no any of these spiritual opulence’s and therefore. it is inferior to the Bhagavan aspect. anadi mat-param brahma. Brahman, the spirit is beginningless and subordinate (mat-param) to Me. (Bg 13.13) anadi -- beginningless; mat-param -- subordinate to Me; brahma -- spirit.

 

brahmano hi pratishthaham - brahmanah -- of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi -- certainly; pratishtha -- the rest, the shelter; aham -- I am;

And I am (aham) the basis (pratishtha) of the impersonal Brahman (brahmanah).

 

In the end one important thing. In the -Svetasvatar Upanisad (3.20) it is said:

dhatuh prasadan mahimanam isam

"only through the grace of the Lord 'dhatuh prasadan' can the embodied atma realize the greatness of Lord 'mahimanam isam'."

Is this clear? He (Isam), Krishna is realized not by jnana but only by the His mercy.

 

Gauranga NItyananda

 

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Let's remeber one thing of BG. BG refers to bhakti (might seem like duality), as this is the alternative path suggested by krishna for the 'average embodied human being' to whom spiritual self-realization is diffult.

 

None of the verses validate duality thinking from the upanishads. Well, you are free to conclude any which way you want and there is surely no lamentation.

 

Refer to the thread 'Atheist' to listen to a bunch of theist "claiming to be spiritually realized of soul" collectively lamenting in an euphoria. Apply the sloka below to their lamentation, and see what happens to the vaishnavas duality. Stop making krishna the demi-god by attributing him a saguna status. Let's give him the credit of what he speaks to us in BG as the nirguna.

 

"anor aniyan mahato mahiyan

atmasya jantor nihito guhayam

tam akratuh pasyati vita-soko

dhatuh prasadan mahimanam atmanah

"Both the Supersoul [Paramatma] and the atomic soul [jivatma] are situated on the same tree of the body within the same heart of the living being, and only one who has become free from all material desires as well as lamentations can, by the grace of the Supreme, understand the glories of the soul."

 

 

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"Stop making krishna the demi-god by attributing him a saguna status"

 

saguna is not a bad word

 

it is your misconception that gives to this word a conditionated meaning.. a dogma that you re unable to demonstrate

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"yes.. bhagavan means "who has bhaja".. who has all opulences. So who's the one with all opulences if not the Supreme Personality?"

 

 

 

 

Bhagavan means bhagavan.

 

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

** Let's remember one thing of BG. BG refers to bhakti (might seem like duality),

# Well, I don't see that you remember the correct teaching of the Gita. So let's repeat it.

There is no bhakti or devotional service without master and servant. This is an eternal fact you, which cannot understand.

 

Shankaracarya sayas "NARAYANA PARO VYAKTAT". Lord Narayana is above avyakta - the unmanifetsed. The ayakta refers to four things: unmanifested material world; pradhana; Maht-tattva; and Brahman. Narayana is above all of them.

 

Brhadaranyaka Up. : Vajasaneya-samhita: atmaivedam agra asit purusa vidhah. The atma (self), who is a transcendental person, existed before the material world was manifested.

 

Note here the word purusha.

 

Now, those who serve and the master, Krishna or Vishnu are all eternal:

 

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

“He is the one supreme eternal being among all eternal beings, and the one supreme conscious being among all conscious beings. He alone is fulfilling the desires of everyone.” (Katho Upanisad 2.13) and (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.10)

 

The Upanisads describe rasa - sweetness what the devotees get from Him, Krishna.

 

Chandogya Up. 3.14.2: He is all sweetness (sarva-rasa) from Whom proceed all desires.

 

Gopala-tapani Up.2.115: sac-cid-anandaika-rasa bhakti-yoga tisthati. Devotional service is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, or, through love one unites with the Lord, who is one mass of existence, intelligence and bliss.

 

Taittiriyaka Up. 2.7: Raso vai saha. "He verily is sweet (rasa), or the sweet One (perceiver of sweetness and the perceived are two). He alone causes blessedness, bliss (rasa, sweetness) for the liberated souls."

 

** as this [bhakti] is the alternative path suggested by Krishna for the 'average embodied human being'

# No, it is the ultimate eternal activity of the living entity (sac-cid-anandaika-rasa bhakti-yoga tisthati) as you could see from the above quote(s) of the upanisads. And also look below the Gita sloka 18.55.

 

** to whom spiritual self-realization is difficult.

# The path of advaitins is failure in the beginning middle and at the end and their path is always difficult.

 

kleso 'dhikataras tesham

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. (Bg 12.5)

 

AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN THE FOLLOWING SLOKA BY HEART.

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

mayy avesya mano ye mam

nitya-yukta upasate

sraddhaya parayopetas

te me yuktatama matah

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.

 

Yuktatama means most perfect. This doesn't refer to advaitins but only to bhaktas. Therefore, they (as an average embodied human beings) are better than the best advaitin. What is the position of advaitins is described in the following Gita sloka.

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

[bg. 18.54]

One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.

 

So, first is barhman realization that "I am the eternal spirit soul different from matter" and then the process of bhakti begins. This is also the ultimate teaching of Sankaracarya who says that your word jugglery (to avoid the direct meaning of the Vedas) will not help you at the time of death. He calls the word jugglers "Mudhas" what means ass - the big symbol of stupidity.

 

Yes these are the direct words of your teacher Sankaracarya.

 

BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM

GOVINDAM BHAJA MUDHAMATE

SAMPRAAPTE SANNIHITE KALE

NA HI NA HI RAKSHATI DUKRINKARANE

Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time

of death the rules of grammar, which you are trying to cram and

master, will not be able to rescue you at all. 1

 

GEYAM GEETAANAAMASAHASRAM

DHYEYAM SHREEPATIROOPAMAJASRAM

NEYAM SAJJANASANGE CHITTAM

DEYAM DEENAJANAAYA CHA VITTAM

(BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM........)

Recite the Gita; chant the thousand Names of the lord (Vishnu

Sahasranama), meditate ceaselessly on the Consort and Lord of Lakshmi,

lead the mind towards association with the good. Give away your wealth

in charity to those in need and who are poor. 27

 

GURUCHARANAAMBUJA NIRBHARABHAKTHAH

SAMSAARAADACHIRAADHAVA MUKTHAH

SENDRIYA MAANASA NIYAMAADEVAM

DRAKSHYASI NIJAHRIDAYASTHAM DEVAM

(BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM........)

Surrender yourself to the Lotus Feet of the Teacher; with your senses

and mind disciplined, and freed from the shackles of Samsara you will

behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. 31

 

BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM

GOVINDAM BHAJA MUDHAMATE

SAMPRAAPTE SANNIHITE KALE

NA HI NA HI RAKSHATI DUKRINKARANE

Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time

of death the rules of grammar, which you are trying to cram and

master, will not be able to rescue you at all. 1

 

In few of his commentaries he used even the Bg 18.62 sloka

 

tam eva saranam gaccha

sarva-bhavena bharata tat

prasadat param santim

sthanasii prapsyasi sasvatam

 

tam-unto him, eva-certainly, saranam-surrender gacchago, sarva-bhavena-in all respects, bharata-O'descendant of Bharata, tat-prasadat by his grace, param-supreme, santimpeace, sthanam-abode, prapsyasi-you will get, sasvatameternal

 

Translation

 

O' descendant of Bharata certainly surrender unto Him completely for by His grace you will attain supreme peace and the eternal abode.

Gita 18.62

 

Complete surrender or no success is your future. It only depends on you what you will choose.

 

** None of the verses validate duality thinking from the Upanishads.

# Better read them again. There are many slokas describing Bhagavan. Where is Bhagavan there are His devotes as well.

 

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam

yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah

tam eva cadyam purusham prapadye

yatah pravrittih prasrita purani

one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality of Godhead from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial. (Bg 15.4)

 

Here the word Purusha in no way refers to Brahman but a beautiful form of either Krishna or Vishnu. There are lot of descriptions of Him in the Upanishads. Moreover from that abode where one surrenders, as the above sloka says, there is no return. There everybody enjoys the eternal rasa with the Supreme Purusha

 

sac-cid-anandaika-rasa bhakti-yoga tisthati.

Devotional service is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, or, through love one unites with the Lord, who is one mass of existence, intelligence and bliss. (Gopala-tapani Up.2.115)

 

So, this rasa is a spiritual bliss what you mayavadi advaitins will never attain and never taste.

 

** Stop making Krishna the demigod by attributing him a saguna status. Let's give him the credit of what he speaks to us in BG as the nirguna.

# Yes, He is speaking about Himself as nirguna - without material qualities; and also as saguna with spiritual qualities. This makes Him completely different from the demigods of this material world. If you read that carrefully Bg sloka 8.9 you will see that the words tamasa parastaat means transcendental, beyond this material nature. There Krishna's RUPA form is mntioned to be transcendental. Naturally not only His form but all other His qualities are like that - transcendental, beyond this material nature - nirguna. Therefore, how you can say that the TRANSCENDENTAL RUPA and GUNA are just like the material (saguna) qualities of the demigods. This, only that person can say, who did not understood anything about spirituality and spiritual variety. Brainless - abuddhaya.

 

Gauranga Nityananda

 

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Please note almost all the form based vedic gods are praised as supreme, as avyakta, as nirguna, as schitananda..etc.. to have the form the people would love, to have the name people would love, and to take people on the vedic path told by scriptures.

 

This has been also extended to the leading gurus who lived in the past.

 

Krishna tells clearly in BG, that he's nirguna. and you guys want to drill & drill into it to make him saguna.

 

Intially Krishna tries the vedic advice to arjuna. And Arjuna asks what if it's difficult for him to obtain self realization. Krishna suggest bhakti to the average embodied who find it difficult to attain self realization. The Arjuna is still not satisfied with the advice of bhakti, and wants to feel more secure with assurance that there is Krishna in him might & power (not mere wisdom) in front of him to support him in the war. Krishna surprises arjuna with the result of the battle to happen. This makes arjuna act and begins the battle.

 

So it may or may not be appropriate based on the progression of the chapters of BG that Bhakti for the average embodied is better than vedic knowledge,...., and miracle/power/might is better than any wisdom obtained from vedas or any sorry-pretending-protrayal of bhakti. The bhakti refered by sankarachya is non-dual.

 

BTW, the bhakti word was not used often in vedas, in rigved it is meant as sharing, or the grace of person sharing. In a non-dual aspect bhakti includes the renounciation as suggested in BG, and nishkama karma (actions without doership). Spiritual experience is within.

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

avyaktam vyaktim apannam

manyante mam abuddhayah

param bhavam ajananto

mamavyayam anuttamam

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme (Bg 7.24)

 

tvam sila-rupa-caritaih parama-prakrishtaih

sattvena sattvikataya prabalais ca sastraih

prakhyata-daiva-paramartha-vidam matais ca

naivasura-prakritayah prabhavanti boddhum

"My dear Lord, devotees like Vyasadeva and Narada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such non-devotees may be in discussing Vedanta and the Upanishads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." (Stotra-ratna 12)

 

If you want to discuss any point you make you have to support by sastra and put there the exact source from where you quote.

 

We prove philosophy by sastra. We don't rely on out speculations. If you don't accept sastra then don't write anymore your foolish letters.

 

AND REMEMBER FOR ALL THE TIME WHAT KRISHNA SAYS:

"Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality."

 

 

Gauranga Nityananda

 

Mundaka Up. 2.2.3: The Upanisads is the bow, the self is the person sharpened by devotion, and as the arrow does not become one with the target he will attain Brahman but not become one.

 

Mandukya Up. 3.1.31: "This liberated soul becomes like (samyam upaiti) the Supreme Brahman (niranjanah paramam), and not actually the Supreme Brahman. He reaches the highest similarity.

 

Katha Up. 1.1.20: Yamaraja to Naciketa: "Ayam asti nayam asti. Is there a person superior to the liberated souls?" Yamaraja answered; "Indeed."

 

Mundaka Up. 1.2.13 (and 3.1.3): By the knowledge given by the guru one comes to the eternal true golden coloured Person, higher than the high imperishable, the highest Immortal, the Source of the brahmajyoti (brahma-yonim) . The highest immortal source. No need of sun, moon, stars, fire in the highest home of Brahman: worship that person.

 

Katha Up. 1.3.10: Higher than senses >sense objects >mind >buddhi >soul >avyakta.

Then it says: avyakta purusah para purusa na param kincit sa kastha para gatah. The Purusa, the Personality of Godhead, is superior to the Avyakta. He is the ultimate Entity beyond Avyakta, the supreme goal.

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Scriptures should be used only when both sides have the spiritual experience. Else it's a mere show off, typical to vaishnavas... i remember seeing on TV the kripalu maharaj..who would tell by-heart the scriptures and then tell the verse numbers, and then rambles away an interpretation to throw cynicism in the name of krishna upon spiritual experience/advaitha (I wonder how come christian preachers do not by-heart and show off, instead of reading from the bible).

 

I don't have a problem with the verse from BG. Krishna refers to people of small knowledge who might think that he didn't have form before (nirguna) and now has a form (nirguna+Saguna). Krishna says that his higher nature is same/unchanged before assuming the personality and while assuming the personality.

 

"Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme (Bg 7.24)"

 

Thank you for the other lines from upanishads, as these clearly support duality based on the interpretation mentioned. No problem, even if the interpretations mentioned are correct. I will try and remember to ask you, if I have questions after checking on the original sanskrit verse and meanings.

 

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

# [in] the verse from BG. Krishna refers to people of small knowledge who might think that he didn't have form before

** Yes, His form is eternal. Eternal means no beginning and no end. Therefore, Krishna's form in the spiritual world and brahman eternally exist together just like the sun and the sunshine.

 

# [He is] (nirguna) and now has a form (nirguna+Saguna).

** Mistake. I gave to you quotes from the Kurma purana where it is said that the body and soul of God, Krishna are one and the same; and from the Gita where His rupa is said to be transcendental. Therefore, His rupa and guna, what you refer with 'saguna' Brahman - Krishna is not material. I hope you understand this. His saguna form is eternally spiritual - nityo.

 

** Krishna says that his higher nature is same/unchanged before assuming the personality

# This is exactly what Krishna don't say that at one point He assumed His personality. Maybe you should learn English.

 

 

** "Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before

# This statement of Krishna proofs my previous statement. IOW Krishna was always a person. Only the unintelligent think that He, Krishna was first the impersonal brahman and later became a person.

 

** and have now assumed this personality.

# and again, the unintelligent think that from impersonal brahman Krishna's personality manifested. This is contrary to what Krishna says; to the scriptures and any logic.

In the effect you cannot find that what is not in the cause.

 

** Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme (Bg 7.24)"

# This sentence is in the context with the previous statement about unintelligent people who, Krishna says now: "they think that He (Krishna) manifested His personality from Brahman". They don't know Krishna's personality, which is higher than the impersonal Brahman. That Higher nature, Krishna's personality is imperishable and supreme. The word imperishable implies eternity that according to definition has no beginning and no end otherwise it cannot be imperishable.

 

Gauranga Nityananda

 

Gauranga Nityananda.

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In your quoted verse from BG (Bg 7.24), Krishna states that it's unintelligent to know him as anything other than impersonal.

 

"Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality."

 

 

 

In the first chapter krishna states to arjuna:

 

There was never a time when I, you or these kinds did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future.

 

All beings, O Arjuna, are unamifest before birth and after death. They are manifest between birth and death only. ..

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"Shankaracarya sayas "NARAYANA PARO VYAKTAT". Lord Narayana is above avyakta - the unmanifetsed. "

 

 

See how the translation above is reverse of the original.

 

 

 

 

"GURUCHARANAAMBUJA NIRBHARABHAKTHAH

SAMSAARAADACHIRAADHAVA MUKTHAH

SENDRIYA MAANASA NIYAMAADEVAM

DRAKSHYASI NIJAHRIDAYASTHAM DEVAM

(BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM........)

 

Surrender yourself to the Lotus Feet of the Teacher; with your senses

and mind disciplined, and freed from the shackles of Samsara you will behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. "

 

"behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. "

 

First behold the Lord in heart and then argue in what manifested form Lord resides in heart?

 

 

 

Lot of citations but all pointing opposite.

 

 

 

 

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You say:

 

"First behold the Lord in heart and then argue in what manifested form Lord resides in heart? "

 

I agree:

"First behold the Lord in heart"

 

I add:

Manifestation is irrelevant in spirituality. BG's first chapter Krishna says, "there is no non-existence of the sat and no existence of the asat. The seers of the truth certainly see it"

 

 

I don't agree:

"then argue in what manifested form Lord resides in heart?"

Let there be no arguments

 

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I don't agree:

"then argue in what manifested form Lord resides in heart?"

Let there be no arguments

 

 

After beholding the Self can there be any argument?

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Gauranga Nityananda

 

 

** behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. "

 

"behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. "

 

First behold the Lord in heart and then argue in what manifested form Lord resides in heart?

 

# Don't speculate. Take the verse as it is:

Surrender yourself to the Lotus Feet of the Teacher; with your senses and mind disciplined, and freed from the shackles of Samsara you will behold the Lord who is seated in your heart. "

 

When you will see the Lord you will stop with all your philosophical speculations because of the experience of the supreme bliss that comes from the Supreme Lord.

 

Sri Hayagriva Up. 3: His Form is beyond the material world, spiritual, and full of transcendental bliss (visvattirna-svarupaya cin-mayananda-rupine).

 

Sri Narayana Up. 4: Narayana is the pratyanandam brahma purusa (full of bliss, spiritual, Person). Narayana is the son of Devaki. Narayana is akaranam (has no cause), param brahman.

 

Taittiriyaka Up. 2.7: Raso vai saha. "He verily is sweet (rasa), or the sweet One (perceiver of sweetness and the perceived are two). He alone causes blessedness, bliss (rasa, sweetness) for the liberated souls."

Or when one understands the reservoir of all pleasure, one actually becomes transcendentally blissful. He alone is the Source of all pleasure. Atma is purusa, enjoyer.

 

** "there is no non-existence of the sat and no existence of the asat. The seers of the truth certainly see it"

# Again your typical advaita-vad word jugglery - cheating. The improper understanding just creates confusion. You don't even explain what is sat and what is asat. No context, no understanding, and you even made mistake in which chapter of the Gita this sloka appears. So, let see whet this sloka all about.

 

nasato vidyate bhavo

nabhavo vidyate satah

ubhayor api drishto 'ntas

tv anayos tattva-darsibhih

 

na -- never; asatah -- of the nonexistent; vidyate -- there is; bhavah -- endurance; na -- never; abhavah -- changing quality; vidyate -- there is; satah -- of the eternal; ubhayoh -- of the two; api -- verily; drishtah -- observed; antah -- conclusion; tu -- indeed; anayoh -- of them; tattva -- of the truth; darsibhih -- by the seers.

 

Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both. (BG 2.16)

 

So, in this second chapter, especially from this Bg 2.16 Krishna is speaking about the differences between the body and soul.

THE SOUL

The soul being spiritual is eternal what in this sloka is indicated by the word satah -- eternal. The words 'na abhavah' describes its non-changing quality. The same non-changing quality of the soul is described other slokas with different words like: avinasi -- imperishable; ajah -- unborn; nityah -- eternal; sasvatah -- permanent.

THE BODY

Here this sloka (Bg 2.16) the word asatah - nonexistent refers to the temporary material body. Later in Bg 2.18 Krishna mention it to be anta-vantah—perishable. The body that is compared to changing of the garments is very nicely described in the Bg 2.22.

 

vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya

navani grihnati naro 'parani

tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany

anyani samyati navani dehi

 

vasamsi -- garments; jirnani -- old and worn out; yatha -- just as; vihaya -- giving up; navani -- new garments; grihnati -- does accept; narah -- a man; aparani -- others; tatha -- in the same way; sarirani -- bodies; vihaya -- giving up; jirnani -- old and useless; anyani -- different; samyati -- verily accepts; navani -- new sets; dehi -- the embodied.

 

As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

 

You mention the Bg 2.28 as a proof for the soul's origin in Brahman. But leaving out one very important word you just misinterpret the whole verse. The word that you don't mention is nidhanani -- when vanquished. Previously Krishna already explained that the soul cannot be vanquished; not killed by any weapon. So, here the word nidhanani can refer only to the material body which in the beginning and at the end are unmanifested and in the interim state manifested. The word bhutani means created. Is the soul created? No, as Krishna already explained before. Therefore, the proper understanding of the Bg 2.18 is:

 

avyaktadini bhutani

vyakta-madhyani bharata

avyakta-nidhanany eva

tatra ka paridevana

All created beings (the bodies) are unmanifest in their beginning, manifest in their interim state, and unmanifest again when annihilated. So what need is there for lamentation?

 

Here Krishna says to Arjuna that he don't have to lement for the bodies that will be killed or nidhanani -- vanquished.

Conclusively, there are again no proofs that the soul is directly Brahman or God.

 

 

Gauranga Nityananda

 

 

 

 

 

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