can a backward caste person become a brahmana?

[BinduMadhav 0]

Dear Radhekrsna:

 

{first of all,,BRAHMIN means a person who has realised the BRAHMAN/BRAHMA JNANAM and spreads the good word to the people around him.}

 

That is good. I agree.

 

{the LORD is not partial toward the the people who take birth in brahmin families...HE has given EVERYONE a chance to become a brahmin.}

 

You are right in that the Lord is not partial. But the Upanishads state clearly that according to Vasanas and Purva-Samskara's, the soul is born in the family of a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Shudra.

 

Once the soul takes shape in a body, the person has to carry on the Dharma assigned to him/her.

 

There are a few instances of extraordinary people like Vishvamitra changing from a Kshatriya to a Brahmana (or, Brahmarshi, for that matter). But such instances are rare. Take for example, the warriors such as Drona and Kripa. They were Brahmins and they died Brahmins. They did not bother to change to become Kshatriyas. On the other hand, Bheeshma was extraordinarily knowledgeable about the scriptures and he was one of the few who recognized Lord Krishna for who He was: The Supreme Lord Himself. But did Bheeshma ever try to change to Brahminhood? No.

 

And what about Lord Rama and Lord Krishna? Did they ever aspire to become Brahmins? Not at all.

 

Don't get carried away by emotions. We cannot afford to do that. The scriptures state that and that is what I am stating. A non-Brahmin, especially a Shudra, cannot become a Brahmin by changing over. But again, I have great respect for people of other castes who are vegetarians, good to others, worship the Lord and exhibit other good virtues.

 

Again, I don't understand why anyone wants to be given the title of a Brahmin. The title does not mean a thing.

 

Of course, there are new schools of thought that declare everyone as a Brahmin.

 

 

[jayan008 0]

Shiva is Brahma....everything dissolves in him.....so also is Vishnu....so also Brahma......... The three : Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh ; the creater, preserver and destroyer are ONE, nothing comes before and nothing after. You cannot take out any one from this ultimate triune. Hence all the three combined are 'ONE' and hence 'One Supreme Being'.

 

When you pray to one, you pray to all......Please do not misunderstand when Krsna is referred as supreme being, as it does not take away Shiva being the Supreme Being too, because Krsna is ultimately Vishnu and praying to Krishna is praying to Vishnu, a part of the holy-triune, and thereby ultimately praying to Shiva and Brahma, the other two parts of the triune......So also, praying to Shiva or Brahma is praying to Vishnu and Krsna......and to Ganesha, Karthikeya....

 

Differences between Shiva and Krsna or Vishnu can be made only by a person who is blind in his approach towards worshipping his faith.

 

[jayan008 0]

The discussion on the forum started with reference to a person who (scheduled caste by birth) realised the purity in BRAHMINISM and devoted himself to GAYATRI MANTRA, he took THE UPANAYANAM and switched to vegeterianism.

 

You then said that it is wrong, a Shudra cannot become a brahmin and he will face terrible consequences if he recites Gayatri Mantra. He should only follow the Dharma assigned to him.

 

Now you give examples of people like Vishvamitra changing from a Kshatriya to a Brahmana.... Why this double standards ??? Is Vishvamitra an exception, and why?

 

You seem to accept Vishvamitra's stand, but not this person's. May be because you are too scared of the consequences you might face if you question Vishvamitra, since it is mentioned in the ancient scriptures and books, and you never dare to go against it, while you can blame a person in the present age, who to you is a mere mortal being.

 

If you might say that Gods were pleased with Vishvamitra because he might have done his duties well, so as a rare case, it was allowed. Then, if this person in discussion has done his duties well, he should also be considered, as a rare case.

 

The reality infact is that Vishvamitra never faced the wrath or consequences becaused he followed the path which was better suited to him. He realised it within himself that he would succeed in such a path. If he would have had the slightest of doubt he would never have taken this path.

 

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"the warriors such as Drona and Kripa. They were Brahmins and they died Brahmins. They did not bother to change to become Kshatriyas"

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- They knew that the best path for them is to be a brahmin. Their realisation led them to stick to the path chosen by them. They had good knowledge of martial arts, but not exceptional. A good coach need not necessarily be a good player. They realised that their intellect and knowledge would be better put to work if they remain brahmin.

 

Gautam Buddha was a Kshatriya by birth. Why did he retire to a simple life and gain Englightenment? Because he realised that his path of life is not meant to spend being a King but to be one with the God. Self Realisations lets one choose his path, and nothing else.

 

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"And what about Lord Rama and Lord Krishna? Did they ever aspire to become Brahmins? Not at all."

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- Why do they want to become brahman, whence they already are? Please refer back to an event as pointed out by one of the Guest in this forum - for a yagnas by Yudhistra, a requirement of donating food to a true BRAHMIN YOGI arised, yudhishtra sends men all over for the same, finally NARADA MUNI comes and tells him abt the BRAHMNIN YOGI who is right in front of him,,,SHRI KRSNA. When he donates the food,the yagna is declared completed successfully!"

 

The above clearly state that it is not by birth that one is united with the Lord and become a brahman, but by his karmas. Krsna and Rama has proved that by taking birth as a Kshatriya (lower caste by birth - lower to brahmins - as per your interpretations) you can become a Brahmana, and not as per your version of they taking avatar to be an example to other Kshatriyas how to respect brahmins.

 

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"You are right in that the Lord is not partial. But the Upanishads state clearly......."

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- So according to you, you mean to say that Lord is not partial but the Upanishads are....Is the Lord more important or the Upanishads? If one accept Lord to be important, then Upanishads and Vedas become secondary, so the question - why to refer them, which is secondary? But then the Lord himself tells that that the Vedas, the Upanishads are from him. So being the Lord and the most important, how can he be partial in the scriptures...you are confusing again.

 

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"Don't get carried away by emotions. A non-Brahmin, especially a Shudra, cannot become a Brahmin by changing over"

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- you stressed 'especially a Shudra', so, does it mean the others - Kshatriyas and Vaisyas have a chance, but first you said that one has to carry on the dharma assigned to him, by birth...so why is there a slim chance to kshatriyas and vaisyas.

 

Your biased view towards to Kshatriyas can be understandable, because Krishna and Rama were born Kshatriyas, so if you deny Kshatriyas the status of Brahmana, you are denying Krishna and Rama the status. You would never dared to do that. So again out of fear of consequences you change your stance on Kshatriyas, and even consider Vaisyas, but still not Shudras.

 

Therein lies flaw in your interpretation, which changes according to the circumstances best suited to you.

 

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"But again, I have great respect for people of other castes who are vegetarians, good to others, worship the Lord and exhibit other good virtues."

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- It is just like Pakistan saying we accept India and its democracy, but we cannot accept Kashmir as its integral part. - Very Cunning.

 

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"The title does not mean a thing"

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- So why do you make comments??

 

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"there are new schools of thought that declare everyone as a Brahmin."

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- Then why don't you accept this person to be a brahmin??

 

[Guest guest]

i agree with all what u said,,,with no intention of disrespecting bindumadhav.

bindumadhav...please remember always that:::::

when the LORD makes rules it is for one and all,there wud be no exceptions,,if any,HE wud've mentioned it clearly.

moreover every rule wud have only one exception!not soooo many as u urself quote(vishwamitra,valmiki and many more if we really look into our holy scriptures)

so,there is no such binding rule that says" a person shd and must be born in a brahmin family to become a brahmin"..it actually depends on ones' own past karmas,vasanas,tastes that pull him into brahminism/sudrism.a person with TAMASA taste, although born in a brahmin family wud indulge in illicit sex and meat-eating!how cud u call him a brahmin bindumadhav ,i really dont understand this stand of urs!?and definitely in his next birth, he wud be a born-sudra..and thus he wud have LOST his chance to realise the SUPREME.and thats how it goes on.

 

pl think once again ..it's simple if u keep aside YOUR stand for a while:::

"THE LORD is very kind and merciful,a person is a brahmin if and only if he is a SATTVA GUNA sampanna...such a person becomes eligible for GOD-REALISATION.Now...the person mentioned in the beginning of the discussion is a BC by birth,,so according to u he shd follow his dharma..so u mean to say..although this person knows meat-eating wud take him nowhere in spiritual realisation..he shd force himself to eat meat(he being a bc is supposed to follow his dharma according to u!!!!!!!!!!)???

if yes,then dont forget that he HAS to bear the sin of animal-eating,,he wud be adding lottttttts of VIKARMA to himself ,,,and GOD knows how he wud be born in his next birth!!!and thus the chain of birth/death wud go on for him endlessly.i DONT THINK our LORD wud prescribe this.

so,if he follows what u said,,he is sure to lose a golden opportunity to reach the SUPREME!!!

pl also note that a person may at anytime ELEVATE himself to a ahigher caste BUT NEVER is supposed to de-elevate,,a person from sudra/vaishya/kshatriya familiy can at anytime under a guru , with proper rituals become a brahmin BUT NOT vice-versa.afterall GROWTH is a ways of life,,,one HAS to grow higher na.that is why it is mentioned in our scriptures that a brahmin man can marry a girl who is of same/lower castes ,so that the wife wud thus elevate herself.but IT SHD NEVER BE the other way round..

i had previously asked u to read SRIMAD BHAGVATAM 11.17 onwards...read those and pl consider rethinking!

[BinduMadhav 0]

{You seem to accept Vishvamitra's stand, but not this person's. May be because you are too scared of the consequences you might face if you question Vishvamitra, since it is mentioned in the ancient scriptures and books, and you never dare to go against it, while you can blame a person in the present age, who to you is a mere mortal being.}

 

I am reluctant to continue discussion of this forever, so with your permission I will write last couple of comments. Further discussion will depend upon whether new points are raised and need to be addressed.

 

Vishvamitra went through hell to be named a Brahmarshi ever since he declared "Dhikbalam Kshatriya Balam Brahamatejo Balam Balam". It was a very long process. He was not satisfied when Brahma came and declared him a Brahmarshi. Sage Vasishtha himself, Vishvamitra's arch enemy, had to come and declare him a Brahmarshi. If he did not receive this title, he would have been a Rajarshi.

 

{The above clearly state that it is not by birth that one is united with the Lord and become a brahman, but by his karmas.}

 

My point exactly. It really does not matter whether one is a Brahmin, or a Shudra. We are all the same in the eyes of the Lord. But Hindu scriptures explain that when we die, we will be born as Brahmin or etc depending upon our Sanchita Karma. I don't have my reference with me, but I can look into my books, if you want.

 

You say: "..the Lord more important or the Upanishads?" There is no question that the Lord is supremely important. But we can only infer what the Lord says through what is contained in the Upanishads.

 

Gautama Buddha was not the only great Kshatriya who went in search of knowledge. There were several Kshatriyas who were superior to Brahmins at the Upanishadic times, although Yagnyavalkya is the super-hero Brahmin. Janaka is a great example. Again, this is a moot point. We are talking about a Shudra becoming a Brahmin.

 

You say also: {It is just like Pakistan saying we accept India and its democracy, but we cannot accept Kashmir as its integral part. - Very Cunning.}. You are losing your calm here. I advise you against that. Emotions lead to unneeded problems. There is no Cunning. All I am saying is what is contained in our scriptures.

 

Sri Ramanuja was one of the few Brahmins who actually took in a lot of non-Brahmins into the fold of Brahminhood. I have very great respect for Sri Ramanuja. He did what Adi Sankara or Madhvacharya never would dream of doing. If more great Brahmins will come forward to do that, you and your friend will achieve your objective.

 

Why won't I accept his person as a Brahmin? I personally have no problem accepting him as a Brahmin. In fact, he is probably a better person than many Brahmins that I know. These days, there are not too many Brahmins. I am not a true Brahmin myself; in order to be called that, I should be sitting in my home in India chanting Vedas in the morning, doing Agni Karyas, teaching students while my wife works as a Gurupatni.

 

My opinion is that this man should continue to be a good man and not bother to become a Brahmin. It does not mean a thing. If you want to change my opinion, first the scriptures need to be changed. The same goes for Gayatri Japa. Scriptures say clearly that Shudras should not recite the Gayatri Japa. The tradition demands that I accept the scriptures, right? Otherwise, I will be a rebel like Tiruvengadam (God, I love his name; quite a mouthful, isn't it?)!!!

[Guest guest]

with all regards to all those who have participated in this forum for answering my query,i place the following note w.r.t the statement by bindumadhav: "My opinion is that this man should continue to be a good man and not bother to become a Brahmin."

well,in the case that i've stated ,there maybe a need for me to know whether he can be called (or accepted) a brahmin,bcoz he is the person whom, i guess, would be my future husband,,i donno.in the beginning,i asked him indirectly if he was a brahmin,he said the past 2 generations had been following very strict brahminism.his father conducts GAYATRI mahayagnas and is a head there.he undertook upanayanam in his 9th year.after hearing this,i being a brahmin,was worry-free abt his caste.but,recently in one of his application forms that he got by post,he and i were shocked to see that his father had mentioned his caste as BC,,here,i was very badly confused as i read in the BHAGVATAM that a man shd marry a girl of lower/same caste(as quoted by one of our guests also).now ,iam in a fix,,so is he,we love each other,both of us are SHRI KRISHNA devotees.we have known each other for the past 2-3 yrs almost,so,please ENLIGHTEN US!

BINDUMADHAV,PLEASE ANSWER CAREFULLY NOW AS U R THE ONLY PERSON DIFFERING IN VIEWS,AND I RESPECT ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

 

thanks.

HARI BOL

HARE KRISHNA

 

[jayan008 0]

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"Sage Vasishtha himself, Vishvamitra's arch enemy, had to come and declare him a Brahmarshi. If he did not receive this title, he would have been a Rajarshi."

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- Thats' his personal matter whether he accepts being a brahmarishi from Brahma or Vashista. It doesn't answer the question whether such rare cases could be allowed.

 

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"We are all the same in the eyes of the Lord. But Hindu scriptures......."..."There is no question that the Lord is supremely important. But we can only infer what the Lord says through what is contained in the Upanishads."

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- If all are same, why again the doubt (but)....you either choose God or the scriputures.....isn't it better to choose the 'best' rather than the 'doubtful'.

 

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"Gautama Buddha was not the only great Kshatriya..........

Again, this is a moot point. We are talking about a Shudra becoming a Brahmin."

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- There again your biased views.......

 

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"I am not a true Brahmin myself; in order to be called that, I should be sitting in my home in India chanting Vedas in the morning, doing Agni Karyas, teaching students while my wife works as a Gurupatni."

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- If one works 24/7, struggle each day to feed one's family, take care of one's children, and yet practice good karma in all his activities, is a true brahmin. Sitting at home/temple and reading vedas, while actually practising corruption, cheating etc., is a Shudra,,, just like a Wolf in a Goat's hide.

 

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"You are losing your calm here. I advise you against that. Emotions lead to unneeded problems..."

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- Is Giving an example means losing patience ??

 

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"Otherwise, I will be a rebel like Tiruvengadam (God, I love his name; quite a mouthful, isn't it?)!!!"

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- look who's talking....

 

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"Sri Ramanuja was one of the few Brahmins who actually took in a lot of non-Brahmins into the fold of Brahminhood......If more great Brahmins will come forward to do that, you and your friend will achieve your objective."

----

 

- So again one should approach a brahmin ??? again the superiority complex ????........

 

There is no objective to be achieved here, it is a matter of someone's choice on his path of life. However, you cannot approve it, and your reasons given are falling short of justfying your own stand. You first accept that Lord is supreme over the Upanishads (when given a choice),,, and even though there is doubt you still cling on to the Upanishads, but then again you say that there are rare cases......

 

Now suppose, let's take the the case of a person...even though a shudra by birth, he recites mantras, reads the scriptures, is a good well-mannered person and never intentionally hurt anybody's feeling.....what do you think Ramanuja would have done....would he make him a brahmin.....since you said Ramanuja converted many non-brahmins to brahmin. If so, would you justify his actions? If yes, then your support to Ramanuja is against the scriptures, right? If no, then you are against Ramanuja?

 

The answer to this is that you have misunderstood the real meaning of the scriptures, and hence these doubts. Ramanuja would have accepted the person and the Scriptures would also stand right? Because Ramanuja has better understanding of the scriptures and he knew that "it's better to be in company of an Intelligent poor person than to be associated with ten Rich, but foolish people".

 

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"If you want to change my opinion, first the scriptures need to be changed. The same goes for Gayatri Japa. Scriptures say clearly that Shudras should not recite the Gayatri Japa. The tradition demands that I accept the scriptures, right?"

----

 

- Why should you be a slave of somebody??? You revere Ramanuja, but you never follow his example. What did Ramanuja do??? He questioned his guru Yadavaprakasha's interpretations of Vedic texts, which were not quite up to his satisfaction. Ramanuja pointed out many mistakes in the exposition of his master. Sometimes he gave his own interpretations which were much liked by others......

 

The vedic texts are flawless... However, if somebody points out flaws, it means the person who is interpreting is not doing justice, he is falling short of satisfying others with his explanations.....To counter that, the best way is to ask for yourself why is it so? Is there any other way of addressing the meaning of the texts? You can refer to a more experienced person, but even if that not satisfies you, you may seek another source. Only the one who seeks is the one who finds. If Ramanuja would have just sat like an obedient student and listened to his guru without clearing his doubts, he would never have become for what he is revered now......he questioned and couter-questioned..... Please never take criticism personally....shutting/evading yourself from it will not help....because it will bounce back much harder, just like Ramanuja who was restless until he cleared his doubts.....

 

We all take it for granted what has been preached by our ancestors/gurus, and never dare to reason our doubts, because to question is considered a sin, a rebellious attitude and get termed an outcast........but just imagine, if Arjuna hadn't questioned / seeked guidance from Krsna for his doubts, we would have been deprived of the sacred quotes of Bhagavad Gita.....

 

[Guest guest]

how dare u address me as a rebel that too when discussing with another person....ur not only a hindu but also a low class person...who is a rebel? its u who differs from most of the people in this thread...ur a rebel....

how can i expect civil talk from u...u r a person who has explecitly called others as fools.....it is indeed ur folly....blind r ur eyes that dont see the truth...deaf r ur ears that dont hear the truth...dumb are is ur mouth that dont speak the truth....

 

i regret having a discussion with such a low class person who goes about calling others by names ....in tamil it is called 'puram pesuthal'...and it is considered a 'neecha saeyal'-act of lowness...u have proved that ur a 100% shudra

 

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to other readers

 

i have made this post hot with my words cos i want this person Bindhu to understand how irritating and wrong his post are....i am deeply sorry for those who find me rude but Bindhu has left me with no choice...i could have remained silent but i feel mistakes have to be pointed out...i might be wrong, if so pls forgive me

[jayan008 0]

more important are -

 

1) do you like this guy?

2) do you trust him? and

3) do you think you would be happy with him?

 

Rest everthing becomes secondary.

 

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"there maybe a need for me to know whether he can be called (or accepted) a brahmin"

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Its up to you - If you believe that if by taking birth in a "brahmin" family one becomes brahmin or by virtue of his nature, approach and thought he becomes a 'brahmin'

 

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"in one of his application forms that he got by post,he and i were shocked to see that his father had mentioned his caste as BC"

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There are instances where people get the "BC" certificates to get jobs (reserved for BC) and thus they mention their caste as 'BC' in the application form. Otherwise, they might have started practising brahminism since last 2 generations, however, would still like to take the benefit of the reservations in jobs. You better tell this guy to check up with his father.

 

I am sorry i interfered, since you had only asked these queries to BindhuMadhav, but since you are taking an important decision in life, i thought may be i could put one or two of my personal views. However, please take your own decisions and i pray that your problems are well answered by members of this discussion forum.

 

 

 

 

[jayan008 0]

people speaking truth are always called rebels.....

 

 

[Guest guest]

hello jayan008,

thanx so much for your advice and wishes.pl dont call it interference as i clearly said in the beginning

"with all regards to all those who have participated in this forum for answering my query,i place the following note "

so,,it is for ALL of you to advise me in solving my prob.yes,i specifically mentioned bindumadhav as bindumadhav is the only one differing in views and as i said i regard ALL your views in this matter.pl dont take it otherwise.also note my last para carefully

"BINDUMADHAV,PLEASE ANSWER CAREFULLY NOW AS U R THE ONLY PERSON DIFFERING IN VIEWS,AND I RESPECT ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS."

 

now coming to my answers for the 3questions u raised:

1.YES YES YES

2.YES VERY MUCH

3.YES YES VERY MUCH HOPE SO,SEEKING BLESSINGS FROM OUR LORD SHRI KRISHNA.

 

pl advise in a more detailed way,

regards to each of you in this thread,

HARE KRISHNA

HARI BOL!

 

[BinduMadhav 0]

{with all regards to all those who have participated in this forum for answering my query,i place the following note w.r.t the statement by bindumadhav: "My opinion is that this man should continue to be a good man and not bother to become a Brahmin."

well,in the case that i've stated ,there maybe a need for me to know whether he can be called (or accepted) a brahmin,bcoz he is the person whom, i guess, would be my future husband,,i donno.in the beginning,i asked him indirectly if he was a brahmin,he said the past 2 generations had been following very strict brahminism.his father conducts GAYATRI mahayagnas and is a head there.he undertook upanayanam in his 9th year.after hearing this,i being a brahmin,was worry-free abt his caste.but,recently in one of his application forms that he got by post,he and i were shocked to see that his father had mentioned his caste as BC,,here,i was very badly confused as i read in the BHAGVATAM that a man shd marry a girl of lower/same caste(as quoted by one of our guests also).now ,iam in a fix,,so is he,we love each other,both of us are SHRI KRISHNA devotees.we have known each other for the past 2-3 yrs almost,so,please ENLIGHTEN US!

BINDUMADHAV,PLEASE ANSWER CAREFULLY NOW AS U R THE ONLY PERSON DIFFERING IN VIEWS,AND I RESPECT ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS.}

 

My dear lady,

 

My opinion is that you should not worry too much about the caste system. It is entirely true that Hindu scriptures have made it perfectly clear that one who is not born a Brahmin cannot become a Brahmin. Following Svadharma (One's Own Dharma) is supremely important for everyone.

 

That being said, I don't see why you are fretting over whether your fiance is a Brahmin or not.

 

What is most important, if you are going to marry him, is whether he is a good, intelligent and hard working man, if he will love you throughout your life (and not abandon you like some of the Adhamas, Brahmins among them have done) and he will support all your endeavours to grow spiritually and materially in this life.

 

The second most important factor is to ensure that you have the support of both families in this union. This is important because your marriage's success will (to some degree) depend upon the young couple's cordial relations with the two families. It is not absolutely necessary if you and him have the moral strength to stand up against everyone. That is something you need to decide for yourself: Will your love for him (and his love for you) overcome the obstacles in the form of pressures from your parents, siblings, etc?

 

Before you make a final decision to marry this young man, you may want to find out why this family is calling themselves 'BC' (or whatever; what is BC anyway?) for financial gain, while they go around doing what Shrotriya Brahmins usually do, like Gayatri Mahayagnya. I don't like this: If they are truly BC, why do they want to show-off as Brahmins? On the other hand, if they are Brahmins, why are they trying to cheat the government by saying that they are BC? I would be very sympathetic towards them if they are truly BC and want to elevate themselves (in the eyes of society) to that of Brahmins.

 

There are some examples of high caste girls marrying a non-Brahmin come to my mind. Devayani marrying Yayati is the most famous one. But the circumstances there were peculiar. Devayani had been spurned in her first love (for Kacha) and Shukracharya, her dad, absolutely adored her and he would have done anything for her. Again, Yayati continued to be a Kshatriya after marrying Devayani; there was no question of any change of caste.

 

Since this is truly touching your personal life, I will make my opinion very clear to you. I personally do not believe in the caste system. My opinion is that the so called caste system is an evil that must be eradicated. At this time, however, the caste system is part and parcel of the Hindu society. But the caste system has been supported in the Upanishads as well as Bhagavad-Gita by Lord Krishna Himself. Even if Lord Krishna shares my opinion, since He is infinitely more intelligent than I am, He must have had reasons to support the system at His time on earth. But I can assure you that Lord Krishna would bless an intercaste marriage under proper conditions.

 

My recommendation is for you to marry this young man (if it works out well) and live a long and happy life blessed by Lord Krishna Vasudeva.

 

One last word: I have seen many, many inter-caste marriages (I can recall dozens at least) and practically every one of them has been a great success. In almost all the cases, the couple did not attempt to change anyone's caste. They just, simply, ignored the caste factor in the whole equation. If you also do that, then you will live happily in your married life.

 

May Lord Krishna bless you!

[BinduMadhav 0]

{how dare u address me...} (rest deleted)

 

My dear Thiruvengadam,

 

You need to grow up a little. And understand the true meaning of the word 'Rebel'. In case you don't have access to a dictionary, here are the two meanings of a rebel: (a) To refuse allegiance to and oppose by force an established government or ruling authority. (b) To resist or defy an authority or a generally accepted convention. Since we are talking religion on this forum, (b) is more appropriate. Note that a rebel is not a bad person. A rebel is, simply, a rebel.

 

Do you understand what friendly banter is? Apparently you don't. It is possible that you lack a sense of humor.

 

I am truly sorry for you.

[Guest guest]

You asked

*****

have a friend who is a BC by birth.his father however realised the purity in BRAHMINISM and devoted himself to GAYATRI MANTRA,he took THE UPANAYANAM and switched to vegeterianism.when his son was around 9 yrs old,his son also was sanctified with UPANAYANAM.

in his application forms however,my friend writes his caste as a BC ,unwillingly though.

officially he is that na?he does'nt like it.he is a SHRI KRSNA devotee.he doesnt even eat onion/garlic or drink tea/coffee..i have some other brahmin friends who eat non-veg.i feel "THEY" are actual sudras!

BRAHMINISM comes from birth or by behavior?

will he have to wait for another birth to call himself a brahmin???********

 

I replied

*********Have the cake and eat it too. [re: Guest]

06/02/05 02:30 AM Edit Reply

 

 

 

 

They get lot of benifits by reservation, job quotas etc, and at the same time enjoy being a brahmin also..... man.... these days, people born as brahmins suffer because of discrimination....

 

Well.... coming back to the point, as long as they dont use the BC trumpcard in getting college admissions, jobs, promotions etc.... and disguise as brahmins during marriage to get a brahmin girl, it is ok.

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and you said

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iam the person who raised this discussion.... [re: BinduMadhav]

06/09/05 03:57 AM Edit Reply

 

 

 

 

with all regards to all those who have participated in this forum for answering my query,i place the following note w.r.t the statement by bindumadhav: "My opinion is that this man should continue to be a good man and not bother to become a Brahmin."

well,in the case that i've stated ,there maybe a need for me to know whether he can be called (or accepted) a brahmin,bcoz he is the person whom, i guess, would be my future husband,,i donno.in the beginning,i asked him indirectly if he was a brahmin,he said the past 2 generations had been following very strict brahminism.his father conducts GAYATRI mahayagnas and is a head there.he undertook upanayanam in his 9th year.after hearing this,i being a brahmin,was worry-free abt his caste.but,recently in one of his application forms that he got by post,he and i were shocked to see that his father had mentioned his caste as BC,,here,i was very badly confused as i read in the BHAGVATAM that a man shd marry a girl of lower/same caste(as quoted by one of our guests also).now ,iam in a fix,,so is he,we love each other,both of us are SHRI KRISHNA devotees.we have known each other for the past 2-3 yrs almost,so,please ENLIGHTEN US!

BINDUMADHAV,PLEASE ANSWER CAREFULLY NOW AS U R THE ONLY PERSON DIFFERING IN VIEWS,AND I RESPECT ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS.

 

thanks.

HARI BOL

HARE KRISHNA

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Dear Madame,

 

I hit the nail on the head right at the beginning.

When I saw your original post, I dont even know you are a lady about to marry.

 

This is a classic case of opportunism. I have a friend, who claims he does not have caste, or believe in caste, but when it comes to college admissions, and getting a job, he uses his MBC community certificate. See, being born as a BC r MBC is a previlege now, and they max it out nowadays.

 

But once the utility is out, ie they get a job etc with their trump card ( is the community certificate), the next thing is to get a good girl. And usually brahmin girls are well educated, well mannered, respect the husband, inlaws etc...... So they want to become a "Brahmana" just for marriage.

 

I would agree, if they do not use the trump card for admissions, but being a brahmana to get a brahmin girl, and using the trump card to get things done from the government is a classic case of opportunism.

 

I have analysed various other cases als, but I cannot mention it in this forum...

 

But anyway, request you be very careful, analyse the situation thouroughly, get to know his family better, and then decide...

 

This is your life, you have to decide, and dont make any hasty decisions.

 

Love is a very powerful emotion that blinds the reasoning, and sends a human being to misery... so its better not to take any emotional decisions, but to discuss with your parents, well wishers etc....

 

I standby the traditional arranged marriage system. The elders have a lot of experience and do a better job.

 

If I were you, I would ask my parents to find a suitable mate.

 

With warm regards,

V.Jayaraman

[jayan008 0]

---

I would agree, if they do not use the trump card for admissions, but being a brahmana to get a brahmin girl, and using the trump card to get things done from the government is a classic case of opportunism.....

---

 

- Why do you agree on using caste certificate for admission while the same thing as opportunism when one acts as other caste to get married.

 

Opportunism is clearly seen in both the cases. Why should we see in lighter terms for a job earned by opportunism, while we criticise strongly if somebody marries to somone who is from our own clan, does it hurt more personally?

 

Both is pure opportunism, you cannot take anyone in lighter terms. When you take undue advantage of anything you do not deserve, it is a crime.

 

Why we only blame the BCs (Backward Castes), there are plenty of brahmins who gets the BC certificates to get job.

 

Yes, very true, BCs have taken undue advantages of reservation, but then before the reservations were in place, most of the senior positions were the stronghold of the educated uppercastes, who never let lower castes (however well-educated they be) an opportunity to grow, and this led to discrimination. The reservation system was brought into place to counter this discrimination by law. But then it was only to be allowed for the initial 10 year period of post-independence so that the backward caste can make a start. However our petty politicians (brahmins & non-brahmins), hungry for power, used this as a tool for winning votes and thus wearing the mask of representing the under-priviledged forced it to extend.

 

This is the classic example of failure of both cases - "Right by Birth" & "Reservation". In both cases the undeserving and non-capable are given undue opportunities.

 

[jayan008 0]

replied in positive to all my earlier queries and since you have not given any indication of family opposition from either side, the one thing remaining is the understanding level between you two. This not necessarily mean educational qualification, since there are many cases where difference in educational qualification (one highly qualified while the other just average) has never been a problem among couples. This is due to the high understanding level of each others' emotions, likes and dislikes etc., This is more important, because even though his/her family may be very understanding, broad-minded and cheerful, you will never find peace if your own partner lack such quality, because finally he/she is the one who you will be more attached to.

 

For that to happen, you should always be free to talk your mind and get your doubts solved, however unimportant it may seem initially. To do that you should always consider your partner as your friend, because with friends we always feel free to converse all our personal problems, feelings and doubts.

 

[vraja1 0]

 

i beg to differ from u (bindumadhav)...

all of us are aware of the fact that SHRI KRSNA was not born BRAHMIN.hear to this story now from the mahabharata ::::"in one of the yagnas that Yudhistra conducts,,there happens to be a requirement of donating food to a true BRAHMIN YOGI,,people search all over for such a 'true BRAHMIN YOGI'.yudhishtra sends men all over for the same,they come back invain,finally NARADA MUNI comes and tells him abt the BRAHMNIN YOGI who is right in front of him,,,SHRI KRSNA.all are amazed...when he donates the food,the yagna is declared completed successfully!"

 

Now,

1.THE LORD HIMSELF clearly proves and stands as an example to show that Birth is not important for one to become a brahmin,,it is the actions/speech/mind/purity that counts,our LORD was a complete and a true brahmin yogi,,,,YOGEESHWARA!!HARI BOL!!

 

2.SHRI KRSNA clearly states in his message to uddhava (srimad bhagvatam) that a person is called a brahmin/sudra,etc by his acts (NOT BY BIRTH).

 

3.how can u call a person born in a brahmin faminly , who eats meat and is full of tamasa/rajasika gunas as a brahmin???he is a dog-eater,,,not a brahmin.

if ur statement stands,the world would plunge into a chaos,full of nonsens untrue brahmins who are proud of breaking the rules of SATTVA GUNA!

HARE KRISHNA!

[vraja1 0]

 

i beg to differ from u (bindumadhav)...

all of us are aware of the fact that SHRI KRSNA was not born BRAHMIN.hear to this story now from the mahabharata ::::"in one of the yagnas that Yudhistra conducts,,there happens to be a requirement of donating food to a true BRAHMIN YOGI,,people search all over for such a 'true BRAHMIN YOGI'.yudhishtra sends men all over for the same,they come back invain,finally NARADA MUNI comes and tells him abt the BRAHMNIN YOGI who is right in front of him,,,SHRI KRSNA.all are amazed...when he donates the food,the yagna is declared completed successfully!"

 

Now,

1.THE LORD HIMSELF clearly proves and stands as an example to show that Birth is not important for one to become a brahmin,,it is the actions/speech/mind/purity that counts,our LORD was a complete and a true brahmin yogi,,,,YOGEESHWARA!!HARI BOL!!

 

2.SHRI KRSNA clearly states in his message to uddhava (srimad bhagvatam) that a person is called a brahmin/sudra,etc by his acts (NOT BY BIRTH).

 

3.how can u call a person born in a brahmin faminly , who eats meat and is full of tamasa/rajasika gunas as a brahmin???he is a dog-eater,,,not a brahmin.

if ur statement stands,the world would plunge into a chaos,full of nonsens untrue brahmins who are proud of breaking the rules of SATTVA GUNA!

HARE KRISHNA!

1. Donations for devotional purposes must be given to Brahmanas, which means Brahmana born. Lord Krsna is an exception because he is the Supreme Lord. In Satya-yuga he comes in a Brahmana family, in Treta-Yuga in a Vaisya family, and in Dvapara-yuga in a Ksatriya family. As Lord Chaitanya in Kali-yuga he again comes as a Brahmana. It doesn't matter what Varna the Lord is born into, he is the Supreme Lord. But in the cases of individual human beings, the receiver must be a Brahmana.

 

2. One can be ADDRESSED as a Brahmana if he has Brahminical qualities. But that does not mean that he can accept charity (for devotional purposes) or perform purificatory functions. The scriptures state this. Try reading Krsna Balaram Swamiji's books or learn an Indian language and read authentic scriptural commentaries by pure devotees, and you will learn what the true scriptural injunctions are. It is easy to mislead Westerners because the scriptures are less readily available in English. But even if you read other English translations of the Vedic scriptures, you can see that these things are true. The fallacy is in ISKCON's books which were mistranslated. Try reading other books and find out for yourself. If you get misled yourself, you can only mislead others.

 

3. If a Brahmana eats meat, he is fallen, but so is everyone else who eats meat. Such a Brahaman is not qualified to receive charity or initiate. But a Brahmana who is a devotee and who has never broken regulative principles in his life and has all the scriptural qualifications IS. Furthermore, what to say of all the low-born people accepting donations who secretly eat meat and have illicit sex, or even use intoxication? Mleccha-born people (such as myself) are BORN breaking regulative principles. Their parents feed them cows as a child. Only those low-borns who are determined to change from their past behaviors can be called devotees.

 

Actually, the world has already plunged into chaos. Kali-yuga is in full bloom right now, haven't you noticed? Most so-called devotees think contrary to what Krsna wants and do not care for the real scriptural injunctions. If everyone followed the real scriptural standards of Varna, respecting eveyone, but performing their duty according to the order in which they were born, then the world's problems would be solved. This is how it was in Satya-yuga. People cooperated. Everyone was humble and Brahmanas were worshipped. The scriptures state that a real devotee is hard to find in kali-yuga, so it makes sense that most who claim to be devotees, especially outside of India, think contrary to the scriptural injunctions.

 

The truth is that Brahmana born devotees usually have better karma than low-born devotees, because Brahmanas (except for smarta-brahmanas, or non-devotee brahmanas) were devotees in their past life. Varna by birth is not an artificial man made creation, it is Krsna's decree. Just as someone who has a felony record cannot get certain jobs, someone who has a non-devotional record cannot initiate or receive charity in this lifetime.

[bhaktajan 0]

vraja1,

Indeed you are most elequent.

 

But, there was one statement you made above that may be you worded it wrong (or correctly?):

'The fallacy is in ISKCON's books which were mistranslated.'

 

What do you mean?

 

[PS: Where is Krsna Balaram Swamiji, nowadays? I love and reference his Ekadasi Translation often]