reverse aryan invasion

[Guest guest]

i think i asked b4, but wanted to get more feedback....

 

does anyone know of any evidence to suggest that perhaps the aryan invasion did occur, but not from europe into india, but from india out to eastern europe. even today, its known that the gypsies of eastern europe are of indian descent ( i believe from the Rajastan area or somewhere up there)

 

anyone elieve this could be a possibility?

[Guest guest]

Do you know a famous saying in the country of last colonizers of India that they care more for their pets than their parents! People form such a country can do anything to serve their personal interests.

 

THis theory has been created to serve the purpose european colonizers so that they can justify their existence and enslavery of India. This has been already proven wrong by historains and acheologists...

 

But you have to understand that the whole academic world (which is controlled by Anglo-Saxon/Chistians descendents) has accepted Max Mueller theory because then it gives them sense of superiority and a justification to go and convert the uncivilized souls in India. They can never accept this that Indian philosphy has influenced every other philosophy in the world.

The very basis of these people are that their God is the only true God and their religion is the only true religion in the world. ANd they claim that Hindu religion is a backward religion... a religion whose very foundation is based on the fact that the world is one family and their is 'Brahaman' (God) inside every soul..doesn't matter which religion he/belongs to.

 

They teach secularism to the world whereas the fact is that their very basis is rooted in intolerance and fundamentalism.

 

Who were behind the last two world wars which took millions of life?...Who is civilzed and who is uncivilized .... is and will be determined by karmas..not by coercion based philosophies. Today the whole world is heading towards a disaster because except Indian philosophy every other philisophy uses coercion and suffers from superiority complex.

 

Even China which has abandoned Buddhism and has started to bahave like any othe imperialism by annexing Tibet,now going after Taiwan and using North Korea to create unstability in the world. They organize protests against Japanese but they have done 100 times worse to Tibet by practically wiping out the very existence and civilization of a peaceful country.

 

Another religion in the middle east believes in using any means to make point killing of innocent children, human beings, ordinary office workers and creating chaos in the world.

 

Where all this intolerance and holier than thou attitude is leading all of us? When nothing in this world will remain whose religion will be superior and whose will be inferior.

 

Every body is waiting for their God to return in this world and establish their supremacy over other uncivilized souls. Is this the philosphy of civilized people in 21st century.

 

We call our selves human beings! Is this humanity! To call and forcibly convert people of other beliefs ..what kind of philosophy is that.

 

Unless there is a fundamental change in the thinking of people of this world and untill a true tolerance of other people is accepted the world is going towards self destruction.

 

There can be only one philsophy in the world which says

" Vasudevan Kutumban".... that the whole world is your family. Unless everbody accepts this philisophy with space for every one to practice his or her own philosphy, peace will be difficult to reach.

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you mean that the subcontinent is the original homeland for all Indo-European speaking people then the answer is no, there is no scientific evidence available to support an out of India theory.

 

All archeological and linguistic evidence so far strongly indicates that Indo-Aryan languages ( part of the bigger Indo-European family )came from the outside. So if any one can come up with some good scientific arguments to support an out of India theory I would like to here them too.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

would there?

 

There is evidence to indicate that Indians and Europeans for the most part have a connection. Beyond that, everything else is up in the air.

 

Nobody knows the truth, but there isn't any strong evidence to suggest Aryans came from out of India OR inside of India.

 

Just wild speculations, and theories.

[maadhav 0]

vry good post.

 

please use a username. it helps a lot.

 

[Guest guest]

[..There is evidence to indicate that Indians and Europeans for the most part have a connection]

 

yes and at the end we all have.

 

Some people like Ratheesh are just interested to know wich theory is more supported without jumping to religious or philosophical field.

First, nobody have to feel less Indian if the Aryans were initally from outside. Why should they ? Those who called themselves 'Aryan' 1000 years ago were already different from the various Aryan tribes that came over 3500 years ago, in appearance, language and religion.

 

The linguistic evidence for the Indo-European origin of Indo/Aryan languages outside India is overwhelming. And let it be clear that languages don't migrate by themselves: PEOPLE migrate, and bring languages with them.

 

Don't get me wrong. If there is any good ground to believe that Indo- european languges and the tribes that spoke them originated in the subcontinent I would support it. But there ain't, despite some people like us to believe.

 

To give only one example. Scholars like Rajaram tried to prove that Ayans were always there and that Indus Harappa society was sanskrit/ aryan speaking . He failed totally in his "decipherement "of the indus seals and is even disposed of fraud . Look at this link :

 

horsefraud

 

India has done great things. There is no need to rewrite history and make India the homeland of IE speaking people to feel more comfortable.

It is clear that India just like other great nations is not an isolated place on earth without any migrations from outside and foreign influence on culture. One only have to dig in history or look at today to acknowledge that.

 

 

[Guest guest]

It doesn't matter what you believe or do not believe.Remember one thing that the lies have only so much life. What is true will be proven in due course and who is right and who is wrong will also be proven.

 

There are many who beileve that Jesus is the son of God nobody has seen it and there is no proof that He is.

 

Just like a Sun can be eclipsed for a while only similarly lies have a short life.....What makes you so sanguine that what has been written by westerners about India is truth where as what Indians say is wrong.

 

The . about North Indians being different from South Indians is the biggest . in history. There is no difference in reactions, behaviour or other tendencies. South Indians are at home anywhere in India and North Indian do not feel ackward in South India apart from the language which in anycase is different in every part of India.

 

The fact remains that colonizers destroyed India and its culture with the sole exception of exploiting it and ruling it for ever. Forget the history, if you are a Hindu and believe in Karmas just see what is happening to the last colonizers , from the days of sun never sets the empire they have been reduced to a situation where there is not even enogh space for burials... this is negative karmas unfolding....

In PPP terms Indian economy is already bigger than theirs today..

 

LIes, deceits, enslavery, massacres, partitions, robbery, looting, destrution of Indian culture heritage, Jalianwala bag, Bengal famine, partition butchery, destruction of economy, old education system, policy of divide and rule, destruction of local industry which was better than theirs in many respects like textile industry to sustain their own economy...do you think all these are lies....

 

Today the karmas are going full cirlce... they destroyed India's economy.. today by the strenght of the skill sets of Indians the jobs are coming back to India in form of outsourcing....do you think this has no significance.

 

Was this envisaged 25 years ago?

 

All the lies will unfold in due course and there is a supreme authority whose justice never fails. The universal law nature has some rules.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi. please use a name , letter or even a number. In this way, you are distinguishable from other "guests" who respond(ed).

 

You talked about languages, ethics, Jesus , karma, economy, politics etc. All interesting topics and I agree with you that India is better of economically but let us stay more close to the subject of this thread.

 

[...What makes you so sanguine that what has been written by westerners about India is truth where as what Indians say is wrong.]

 

Automatically accepting what Westeners say or rejecting what Indians say? No, I look at archeological, linguistic etc evidence, arguments. Whether it is given by Indians or Westeners does not matter. Some westeners ( like David Frawley, Elst ) do not support Aryan migration theory (AMT) at all and many Indian scholars ( Iravatham Mahadevan, Asko Parpola and others )do.

 

I look at the presented facts given by supporters and by opponents. Compare them you'll see what is far more plausible.

 

[The . about North Indians being different from South Indians is the biggest . in history ].

 

The word " different" is heavyloaded. But everybody with a sense of reality sees that there is cultural, genetical and linguistic VARIETY in India.

 

And this brings us back to the original subject introduced by Ratheesh. In the north they speak IE aryan languages. The presented evidence tells us that they are brought in together with the aryans. If somebody can can up with some good evidence that they are carried OUT i still like to hear them.

 

Regards

[Guest guest]

well, i still wanna pose the question, because ppl have only answered my question with accepted facts and no actual evidence....

 

why could it not be that indo-euro languages started in the N. Indian/Paki/Afghani region and spread from there to central asia, towards eastern europe?

 

does anyone have any facts that directly prove this as wrong? does anyone know what languages were spoken in Europe before the Romance and Germanic languages?

[Guest guest]

[why could it not be that indo-euro languages started in the N. Indian/Paki/Afghani region and spread from there to central asia, towards eastern europe?]

 

Because the linguistic and archeological trail goes roughly speaken from eastern europe to west asia to central asia to the subcontinent and then deeper into India. The evidence points to a IE trail towards India. Not the other way around.

 

I'll get back to you and will give you some examples and links later. You will even see that many are well known Indian scholars with serious credentials in the field but are not driven by religious or nation-boasting motives.

 

Gr.

 

 

[Guest guest]

the Aryan Invasion theory is DEFINITELY related to Hinduism, its myths it's stories, its gods!

 

So yes, there IS something bad to be said about migration of so-called "Aryans" who conquered India.

 

And I refuse to believe it, nevertheless.

 

I believe in Krishna, Rama, etc. And they were NOT Aryan Invaders, despite many people's claims to such.

 

And yes, there ARE opposing viewpoints on the history of India, many that are legitimate, while some aren't, like Rajaram's "discovery".

 

Just because a few people's theories are discredited, doesn't mean the entire theory of an out of India theory is discredited.

 

Nobody's saying that India was isolated from all other places. What I AM saying is that even if there WAS migration into India, the discovery of Hinduism, the myths, the lore, etc. existed BEFORE AND AFTER that. India is a land of great diversity, and I believe it was a land of great diversity for much longer than we can realize.

 

Besides, science is not a static field. It's based on hypothesis, evidence, etc. Everytime scientists think they know the truth about something, there's always more questions that need answers, or something else that comes about that changes their view entirely of how to interpret the evidence.

 

Archaeology is no different. It's based on a system of conjecture which is used to interpret the evidence.

 

We'll never know truly if Krishna and Rama ever lived, unless of course after death. But I won't let the "science" of archaelogy get in the way of my beliefs in the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and specifically Rama and Krishna.

[Guest guest]

"Automatically accepting what Westeners say or rejecting what Indians say? No, I look at archeological, linguistic etc evidence, arguments. Whether it is given by Indians or Westeners does not matter. Some westeners ( like David Frawley, Elst ) do not support Aryan migration theory (AMT) at all and many Indian scholars ( Iravatham Mahadevan, Asko Parpola and others )do.

 

I look at the presented facts given by supporters and by opponents. Compare them you'll see what is far more plausible."

 

 

There are a lot of things in this world that are true, yet not quite "plausible" at the same time. For one thing, Indian scholars have agendas too. Everyone does. Truth is often hidden from us, and it's generally a matter of personal discovery that matters most.

 

Truth is, indeed, very relative at the same time. What's true for one person isn't true for another. You may think that the prevailing theory of the Aryan Invasion is the most plausible theory. But based on what? Your own values, your own perceptions of reality? Or those imposed upon you by society?

 

Ever wonder if there is some Christian bias in archaeology? I guarantee there is. Many a time I have read scientific articles about finding the origins of "Adam and Eve". Never of "Brahma and Saraswati", never of "Vishnu", "Krishna", "Rama". Why do you think that is?

 

There is some definite Christian bias present in every scientific field, and that's inevitable. Even self-avowed atheists can be guilty of this. The world is dominated by Christians, they are the majority, and it is they, really, that dictate policy and current scientific theory. I'm not talking about fundamentalism here either. It's almost impossible to divorce yourself completely from your upgringing.

 

I also guarantee that anyone who ever wants to get noticed within any scientific field often goes with the prevailing theory and opinion held in that scientific field. Anyone who opposes the prevailing scientific theory often is subject to ridicule and "excommunication".

 

Science, in itself, is a religion, no matter what scientists would have you believe. Anything with a structure to it should be called a religion, because that structure is the author of at least some dogma, no matter how much the MOTIVES of science are pure. People aren't, and that's where the motives fail, and dogma rears its head.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi stranger. This post is a reaction to both your posts. I assume they are the same since the style looks a like. Ive asked you friendly if you can adress a name, sign or even just a simple number so I can distinguish you from the rest. Let me tell you , as a non-registred guest you can always change it later. Anyway, maybe it is to much to ask.

 

[ ' And yes, there ARE opposing viewpoints on the history of India, many that are legitimate, while some aren't, like Rajaram's "discovery".Just because a few people's theories are discredited, doesn't mean the entire theory of an out of India theory is discredited.']

 

Fine that you do, some are still supporting his 'work'. And yes, offcourse we should stay open for it if good evidence is given.

 

["Nobody's saying that India was isolated from all other places. What I AM saying is that even if there WAS migration into India, the discovery of Hinduism, the myths, the lore, etc. existed BEFORE AND AFTER that."]

 

Yes.

[" There is some definite Christian bias present in every scientific field, and that's inevitable. Even self-avowed atheists can be guilty of this. The world is dominated by Christians, they are the majority, and it is they, really, that dictate policy and current scientific theory. I'm not talking about fundamentalism here either. It's almost impossible to divorce yourself completely from your upgringing. "]

 

No, they concentrate on the evidence.They would not even care if IE languages originated in JAPAN if there is good reason to accept that. The out of Africa origin of mankind is supported too by most Western scholars.

 

["Besides, science is not a static field. It's based on hypothesis, evidence, etc. Everytime scientists think they know the truth about something, there's always more questions that need answers, or something else that comes about that changes their view entirely of how to interpret the evidence."]

 

Exactly! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif That's not its flaw but STRENGHT! That is called scientifical/technological progress, my friend. You can see for yourself that this method works very well over the last ages when you turn on your television, use your PC /car/ GSM. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

["Archaeology is no different. It's based on a system of conjecture which is used to interpret the evidence" ]

 

Yep.

 

Like you said science is not static. Religion often is. Science is always ready to ( and does ) review his visions if nessecarely and will ADD new visions to them.

 

Anyway, This and other threads are started by Ratheesh to get some feedback about the original topic. So thnx, we will meet again, like we did some time before in an other thread. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

Hi . Ive looked for some evidence for the out of india theory (OIT ). No, I have not find any good supporting stuff that is based on scientifical evidence.

 

All evidence together points to a origin OUTSIDE the continent for IE languages. It certainly does nof favour OIT. To give you some examples :

 

Archeology:

 

Aryans had horse culture. Oldest signs of Aryanhorse culture ( chariots, horses ,horsegraves/sacrifices etc ) are outside subcontinent not within. These signs enter in India after 1700 BC but are much earlier to be found outside in europe and central asia ( 2200 BC ). We find the youngest and certainly not the oldest in India )

 

OIT supporters claim Harappa is aryan speaking. That is why they need horsebones or horsepictures. This has led in some cases to socalled decipherments and fraud with Indusseals like we all know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

horses and aryans

 

 

Linquistics :

Refuting India as a homeland for IE. Just one example :Sanskrit has undergone dravidian influence/substratum already seen in vedic language. Old -Iranian ( 'supposed' to be coming of sanskrit ) and IE does not have it.

connection IE

Genitical evidence :

genome research by American and Indian universities

 

Anyhow, all this and many other evidence does not support OIT. Overloading the net with " end of AIT myth " or " we were first " sites " is not enough. So I also like to see some good evidence.

 

Anyway, it should not matter all that much after all. India has undergone many invasions and influences: aryans, persians, greeks , huns, moghol, british etc. They all left some traces. Anyhow, it survived. No need to deny Aryan migrations just to feel more comfortable. Certainly no need to make India the homeland for IE as all evindence does not favor it.

 

Europe has undergone invasions too. I dont hear them complain or deny. Nobody in england rejects invasion of saxons and jutes. Nobody in France denies Roman invasions that brought Romance languages. No Hungarian denies that their non IE language is brougth in from Asia.

[barney 0]

The one which is introduced or produced in its perfect form is called Sanskrit. The word Sanskrit is formed from “sam + krit” where (sam) prefix means (samyak) ‘entirely’ or ‘wholly’ or ‘perfectly,’ and krit means ‘done.’ Sanskrit was first introduced by Brahma to the Sages of the celestial abodes and it is still the language of the celestial abode, so it is also called the Dev Vani.

Sanskrit was introduced on the earth planet, by the eternal Sages of Sanatan Dharm along with the Divine scriptures such as the Vedas, the Upnishads and the Puranas. A famous verse in Sage Panini’s Ashtadhyayi tells that the Panini grammar that is in use now is directly Graced by God Shiv.

Once, at the end of His Divine ecstatic dance induced by the enthralling effects of Krishn love, God Shiv played on His damru (the mini hand-drum which God Shiv holds in His hand). Fourteen very distinct sounds came out of it. Sage Panini conceived them in his Divine mind and on the basis of those Divine sounds, reestablished the science of Sanskrit grammar which already eternally existed.

Since the start of human civilization on the earth, people and the Sages both spoke pure Sanskrit language. The historical records indicate that three public programs of the recitation of the Bhagwatam and the discourses on Krishn leelas had happened in Sanskrit language in 3072 BC, 2872 BC and 2842 BC in which Saints and the devotees participated. Later on when the population increased, the prakrit form of speech with partly mispronounced words (called apbhranshas) was developed in the less educated society and became popular.

The Manu Smriti says that the ambitious chatriyas of Bharatvarsh went abroad to the neighboring countries to establish their new kingdoms and, as they were cut off from the mainstream of the Bhartiya civilization and culture, they developed their own language and civilization as time went on. Natural calamities (such as ice ages) totally shattered their civilizations but still the survivors, in the spoken form of their primitive languages, held many apbhransh words of the original Sanskrit language which their remote ancestors had retained in their memory. As a result of this affiliation with Bhartiya culture and the Sanskrit language, Sanskrit became the origin of the growth of the literary development in other languages of the world.

The phonology (the speech sound) and morphology (the science of word formation) of the Sanskrit language is entirely different from all of the languages of the world. Some of the unique features of Sanskrit are:

1. The sound of each of the 36 consonants and the 16 vowels of Sanskrit are fixed and precise since the very beginning. They were never changed, altered, improved or modified. All the words of the Sanskrit language always had the same pronunciation as they have today. There was no ‘sound shift,’ no change in the vowel system, and no addition was ever made in the grammar of the Sanskrit in relation to the formation of the words. The reason is its absolute perfection by its own nature and formation, because it was the first language of the world.

2. The morphology of word formation is unique and of its own kind where a word is formed from a tiny seed root (called dhatu) in a precise grammatical order which has been the same since the very beginning. Any number of desired words could be created through its root words and the prefix and suffix system as detailed in the Ashtadhyayi of Panini. Furthermore, 90 forms of each verb and 21 forms of each noun or pronoun could be formed that could be used in any situation.

3.

There has never been any kind, class or nature of change in the science of Sanskrit grammar as seen in other languages of the world as they passed through one stage to another.

4. The perfect form of the Vedic Sanskrit language had already existed thousands of years earlier even before the infancy of the earliest prime languages of the world like Greek, Hebrew and Latin etc.

5. When a language is spoken by unqualified people the pronunciation of the word changes to some extent; and when these words travel by word of mouth to another region of the land, with the gap of some generations, it permanently changes its form and shape to some extent. Just like the Sanskrit word matri, with a long ‘a’ and soft ‘t,’ became mater in Greek and mother in English. The last two words are called the ‘apbhransh’ of the original Sanskrit word ‘matri.’ Such apbhranshas of Sanskrit words are found in all the languages of the world and this situation itself proves that Sanskrit was the mother language of the world.

Considering all the five points as explained above, it is quite evident that Sanskrit is the source of all the languages of the world and not a derivation of any language. As such, Sanskrit is the Divine mother language of the world.

 

For further reference please go to:

 

http://www.thevedicfoundation.org/valuable_resources/Sanskrit-The_Mother_of_All_Languages_partI.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi B. Thnx for replying but we discuss the possiblity of a subcontinental homeland of IE speaking tribes based on linguistic/ archeology or other scientifical facts. I don't think that Ratheesh wants to hear how this OIT is based on puranic mythology. Puranic stories who mention how earth is surrounded by yoghurt and sugar oceans and how moon is hundred times the size of the earth.

 

The roots in sanskrit and IE languages often have a common origin that lie outside the subcontinent. Besides, sanskrit has undergone changes too, thats why we speak of old vedic, late vedic, sanskrit. The theory that sanskrit is the mother of all languages in the world is not accepted in scholary field.

 

But let s go back to the topic started by Ratheesh. If we want to respect his request, he requested factual evidence that supports a OIT.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i dont believe puranic myth is "myth" as much as it history posed as elaborated poetry. the references to God refer to nature's actions during man's time living there.....if there is something in the puranas that mention something about the aryans or the aryan invasion, then i will take it.....

 

the post about how Sanskrit came to the sages isnt very specific on exactly where it came from. to say it came from God is half hearted answer because EVERYTHING coms from God. the Greatness of ancient India comes from God. THe Deva Nagi script ( i dont know if thats how its spelled) comes from God. THe Muslims who destroyed our country come from God. EVERything comes from God. so to say Dvinine Inspiration is irrellevent and doesnt solve the mystery

[Guest guest]

THIS IS TO ALL THE FORIEGNERS .INDIANS HAVE INVENTED THE ZERO AND THE OTHER NUMERALS THAT THE WORLD USES.SO WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION IN A HUGE WAY.

 

 

DO YOU KNOW THAT ACCORDING TO ASTRONOMICAL CALCULATION THE

DEATH OF LORD KRISNA HAS BEEN FOUND OUT TO BE FEB 18 3047 BC

(THE START OF KALIYUGA).THE RAMAYAN AND MAHABHARAT WERE FOUGHT EVEN BEFORE YOUR EUROPEAN ANCESTORS WERE OUT OF THEIR MONKEY CASTS?.

 

SO DO NOT TRY TO ATTRIBUTE ALL THE WORK TO,(THE SO CALLED ARYANS WHO INVADED INDIA IN 1700 BC .BIG DEAL) ALL THESE EVENTS THAT I DESCRIBED ARE BEFORE THE DATE THE EUROPEANS BOASTED. EITHER YOU ARE PATHETIC IN CALCULATIONS ,WHICH MAKES YOU UNFIT TO SUPPORT YOUR SO CALLED SCIENTIFIC CLOUT,OR YOU ARE JUST TOO BAD LIARS.

IN EITHER CASE THIS SHOWS YOUR DARK SHROUDS OF IGNORANCE.

 

 

THE BRIDGE THAT RAMA BUILT TO LANKA HAS BEEN DISCOVERED IN THE SEA BY THE LATEST NASA SATTELITES.THE OLD KINGDOM OF DWARKA WHERE LORD KRISHNA REIGNED ,PART OF IT IS UNDER THE SEA AND IT IS AS OLD AS THE MAHABHARAT,EVEN TO MY SURPRISE,SOME PARTS ARE AS OLD AS 7000BC.THIS DISCOVERY WAS DONE IN 2000 AD.BUT DUE TO THE PATHETIC CONDITION OF THE SITE ,NOTHING MORE CAN B SAID N CONCRETE. THE CARBON DATING OF SOME HUMAN MADE WOODEN ARTICLES HAVE GIVEN THS DATE.

 

 

 

NO MATTER TO WHAT EXTENT YOU TRY TO TAKE THE CREDIT ,NO MATTER HOW MANY MAX MULLERS YOU PRODUCE THE TRUTH IS STILL UNDISTURBED IN THIS HOLY LAND.

 

THE INDIAN HISTORY IS TOO RICH TO BE WELL KNOWN ,OR EVEN COMMENTED UPON ,THAT TO BY A FOREIGNER,EVEN IF HE IS THE CALIBRE OF MR MAX MULLER.

[xxvvii 0]

even today, its known that the gypsies of eastern europe are of indian descent ( i believe from the Rajastan area or somewhere up there)

--------------

Gypsies belong to a lower cast for entertainment.

 

*************

 

Statement

"The second group were the Atlanteans who were genetically invented by the Pleiadians and transplanted onto the Earth."

 

Cosmic Awareness:

This Awareness indicates that there were those who were called Atlans who were space beings, who lived in what is known as the Atlantic. These entities became enemies of the Lemurians early in the time of Lemuria. Atlantis, or the Atlanteans were a group whose origin was found on mars through genetic engineering by the Greys, in particular, the Orion Greys. This Awareness indicates that these entities from Orion, using genetic engineering, created the Semites and certain of the Atlanteans that were most advanced in a civilization during the time of the decline of Lemuria. This Awareness indicates that in actuality, the civilizations on Mars was at it highest nearly a million years B.C. and had undergone a great decline by the time the Greys used it as a genetic engineering base for creating the latter Atleans. The original Atlans used the Mars bases; these entities were not the same as the Atlanteans, they were called Atlans and their origin was that which was from beyond the solar system. These were the early enemies of the ancestors of the Lemurians, those who were on Earth long before the Lemurians.

 

-----------

 

Statement

"The Atlanteans were white-skinned and they mixed with other races to form such groups as the Indians (India), the Arabs and Jews and the Philipinos. The white race of today is a result of the Atlanteans coming to Europe before the demise of the continent and forming permanent colonies which later grew into large populations."

 

Cosmic Awareness:

This Awareness indicates that the whites arrived in the Caucasus mountains near the time Atlantis went through its final sinking; this being approximately 10.000 B.C. This Awareness indicates that these whites came in spacecraft. This is not to say that no whites had ever before arrived on Earth; there appear to have been some who arrived on earth previously but they were not the main settlers of Atlantis. This Awareness indicates that these entities appear to be those who were from the Pleiades; some also being from that star system known as Lyra. The Pleiadian and the Lyrian entities are closely related in genetic terms.

 

-----------

 

...This Awareness indicates that after these creations, the white race appeared approximately 10.000 B.C., and began to have their influence spreading from the Caucasus mountains southwards into India and into Egypt. This became that which is called or known as the origin of the Great White Brotherhood.

 

The entities came to teach and to establish civilizations among the masses who were already present on Earth. These entities were of Pleiadian origin and in their own way created a certain new element in the civilizations of nations that in some way benefited and in some way proved detrimental to others. Their influence helped to establish the caste system in India, but also helped to introduce an organizational system that allowed for many people of many levels to receive benefits from society in general. The organization of medicine, law, governing and construction came from these entities and helped to take humanity out of the more primitive agriculture and nomadic wandering of tribes into cities and towns. This Awareness suggests that the information be continued.

 

[Guest guest]

Horseplay at Harward

By Vasant Sharma

Publication: The Organiser

April 1, 2001

http://www.hvk.org/

Most readers may be aware that the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) and its Siamese twin the Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) have been deep-sixed for good. Yet many academics in the West continue to recycle material from hundred-year-old books under the exalted title of "Western Indological Researches". Witzel of Harward University is the chief purveyor of old rubbish. Despite his prestigious university position he is a marginal figure quoted only for his blunders in Sanskrit grammar. His retractions forced by Peer criticism of his own translations highlight his deficiencies in Sanskrit. He writes about the Vedic civilization without studying the primary sources. His training is in the speculative science known as comparative linguistics. Readers are referred to a recent article "Horseplay in Harappa" he wrote and which was published in the Indian magazine Frontline (September 30-October 13, 2000, available online in the magazine section at samachar.com). German by birth, among Western Indologists he is one of the most fanatical propagandists of AIT. The bigger, the more preposterous the lie, the more it will be believed. The proof of this successful propaganda technique is the AIT itself which had a run of more than a hundred years until its relatively recent demise. With AIT and AMT gone, the reports are that he now has the answer to how the Vedic civilization developed through a new research tool called "sophisticated acculturation models". Do not be taken in by the high-sounding description. This jumbled, hodgepodge acculturation "research" has one aim: to obscure the truth. It is just more of the same, another attempt to mislead and deceive. Like the AIT and AMT, this specious simulation too has nothing to do with the Vedic civilization, its creators, the origins of Sanskrit or anything else connected with ancient India.

Witzel's collaborator on the Frontline article is one Steve Farmer. He is a computer programmer who live in California. At various times he has claimed to be a Sinologist, a comparative historian, a geneticist, a historian of science and just in time for the Frontline article it seems that he became an Indologist after only two months. While Witzel keeps struggling with Sanskrit, Farmer has no such language problem. For not only does he not know Sanskrit, he does not know any other Indian, language also.

 

Parpola is another contributor to Frontline. He has earned some renown for two volumes he co-edited with Jagat Joshi and Sayid Shah known as the Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions. Often simply called the Corpus, this world-class photographic collection is highly prized and considered an indispensable reference resource by scholars in the field. But in the difficult and the hard world of scholarship meant only for the very best, Parpola measures not at all. In his Frontline article he comes across like a dim bulb with a broken filament unable to emit any light popping off irrationally extreme speculations as scholarship. This is how he and others in the AIT brigade write: personal attacks after personal attacks; speculations piled upon speculations; not a single new insight; not one new discovery; not one illuminating interpretation. Complete disdain for independent scholars and writers outside the establishment who are in fact doing all the trailblazing work in the field.

 

In thirty years of "research" on the Indus script and several volumes, he has not read a single seal correctly, Parpola's only contribution to scholarship is his claim dim "min" means both "fish" and "star" in Tamil and therefore the fish sign is used also as the star. The truth is that "mina” means fish in Sanskrit also and his argument works for Sanskrit as well - making his claim a total failure.

 

The oxygen, the lifeblood and the whole sustenance of AIT has been the false claim that horses were unknown in India until they were brought in by invading light-skinned Aryan nomads from somewhere in Central Asia their exact location known only to these peddlers of AIT. It is also fraudulently claimed that they spoke some early from of Sanskrit in which they later composed the Rigveda.

 

In the Ashvamedha or The Great Horse Sacrifice, the Rig describes the Indian horse with 34 ribs or 17 pairs. Here is a verse from the Rig: "The axe cuts through the thirty-four ribs of the thoroughbred who is the mount and the companion of the gods." Of these thirty-four, one is offered to the sun, one to the moon, five to the planets and twenty-seven are dedicated to the constellations. The Central Asian breed by comparison has thirty-six or eighteen pairs of ribs. The Vedic horse is thus the native Indian horse. It did not come in with fictitious nomads from Central Asia as invasionist scholars have been telling the world for more than a hundred years. This fact alone should prompt many establishment Western professors in the field to consider retraining for jobs in other occupations like horse training or horse breeding. Their Indology careers are over. In fact, Western Indology is itself on its death bed.

 

Immediately below is a search for an answer. It is an attempt to explain the near-absence of horse seals and the relative paucity of images of the horse on other artefacts discovered so far at Vedic sites. Because of the prominence of the horse in the Rigveda, it is reasonable to say that many people had expected to see more horse seals and artefacts than have been found so far. At the same time, it is affirmed and reaffirmed here that both horse remains and horse artefacts have been found at Vedic archaeological sites. Maybe not quite as many as some would have liked.

 

Finding more horse seals and horse artefacts is not a central issue any longer. But it is interesting to explore the question why excavations have not turned up more of them so far. To sum up: we have found them, but why have we not found a lot more of them?

 

The horse figures very prominently in the Rigveda in a number of different roles: domesticated animal, war-horse, racing thoroughbred, mythic mount and companion of the gods, and most important to our discussion the sacrificial stallion. Also, the Sanskrit word for the horse, ashva has other abstract meanings such as power, energy, heat or vitality depending on the context. Many Western Sanskrit scholars have tended to translate ashva to mean the domesticated animal every time in every context without a knowledge of its many contextual meanings. These translations have often provoked laughter.

 

The horse sacrifice is a solemn, funereal event conducted with the utmost gravity. Interestingly, the horse is not thought to have died at all during the sacrifice. The Rigveda says: "You are not harmed, you do not really die through this. You will be on a pleasant journey to the abode of the gods." The departed earthly horse becomes a celestial equine with extraordinary powers to protect and to shower material blessings upon the worshippers.

 

The people probably felt that these hallowed horses of heaven, formerly their earthly companions, were more close, more personal, more generous in their blessings and more protective than the other great gods of heaven whom they found too remote and impersonal. The divine horses occupied the same place as personal gods. The people seemed to be more comfortable with the idea of a personal divine guardian than a distant god of theology. They also believed that their earthly existence and well-being were closely bound and subject to the powers of these consecrated creatures now residing in heaven. In this aspect, the horse indeed enjoyed a supremely exalted status in the lives of the Vedic people.

 

This might have led to a ban on the use of horse images on seals and other everyday objects by religious officials to preserve its lofty and noble status as the consecrated sacrificial victim and now their divine protector. Images on everyday objects would have been demeaning if not sacrilegious. Or the people may have recognized this on their own and may have chosen not to use horse images- voluntary, self-imposed ban. No ban can be expected to be total and complete in a civilization covering more than 300,000 square miles. This may explain why seals or other objects bearing horse images have been scarce at Vedic archaeological sites. Like all bans, official or voluntary, this one too may have broken down over time. So more seals or other items with horse images may still be found but perhaps not in great numbers.

 

Readers may find it interesting to know that Buddha gave specific instructions to his disciples that after his death his physical likeness should not be represented in any visual art form and he should be represented in art as the Bodhi tree, the Tree of Wisdom, under which he had attained Enlightenment. For more than three hundred years the Buddhists respected the Master's wishes. During the time of Ashoka, a typical representation of Buddha was the Bodhi tree recalling his Enlightenment at Bodh-Gaya. There was not a single image of big anywhere. Images of Buddha began to appear after his teachings and philosophy spread beyond India and began to take hold in other countries. The images we see today are intensely contrary to his stated wishes and everything he taught and did.

 

With respect to the Vedic horse, its near-absence on seals and the relative scarcity of other horse artefacts raise the suspicion that there might have been some kind of taboo or prohibition in effect against using horse images. The ban was probably prompted by its status as a consecrated sacrificial victim and angelic, divine guardian and to prevent profanation of this status.

 

Mythological works describe demons and evil characters as having red hair or gold-yellow eyes but the Indian traditions uniformly describe Rama and Krishna as pleasingly dark in color. The most dominant rishis of the Rigveda-the Angiras-are described as dark or coal- black and a prominent figure in the Rigveda is described as brown. These authentic descriptions in the ancient texts are completely harmonius with a tropical and sub-tropical India which receives large amount of ultraviolet A and B radiations from the sun. This was also a pristine India several thousand years before the invasions and attacks upon its land by the Greeks, the Turks, the Persians and an assortment of Europeans like the pork-chu-geese, the French fries and the English muffins.

 

Invasions and occupations have had very little impact on the physical characteristics of the people except in border states like Punjab and Kashmir and provinces in the north-west now in Pakistan. Nationwide, less than one in two hundred perhaps shows any foreign traces and almost all such people are from the border regions or people who have settled in other parts of the country from those areas. Most relevant to the topic under discussion is that occupations by foreign armies took place some two thousand years or more following the Vedic age in its original purity.

 

A bronze sculpture dating back to the Vedic age has been identified as depicting the famous Vedic rishi Vashishtha. Exactly matching its description in the Vedas, the sculpture displays a unique hairstyle oiled and coiled in a tuft to the right (In Search of the Cradle of Civilization, pp. 70-71). The finely chiseled nose, the large, black and piercing eyes and other features on the face make the sculpture look like a quintessential Indian priest.

 

Another Vedic-age figurine depicts a svelte and beautiful woman who is clearly black. The graceful nude model may have been the prototype of the Devadasis or Temple Virgins of later India. A torso is all that has survived from Vedic times of a splendidly crafted sculpture of a male in the nude. An interesting fact about these artefacts is that not only the celebration of sex as exemplified in Vatsyayana’s Kama Sutra but also the celebration of the artistic beauty of the human form has its origins in ancient India. Despite its current problems, an India of the future, modem and prosperous, must reconnect itself with the Vedic love and passion for life and establish a pervasive physical culture throughout the subcontinent.

 

Now we have not only a proven description of Vedic horse anatomy but also descriptions of the most powerful rishis of the Rigveda including a bronze sculpture of one of them. This along with a crushing mass of other evidence forcibly confirms the purely indigenous lineage of our great rishis.

 

One old game Western Indologists still play is proposing an "original homeland" outside India for everything Indian. The current favourite seems to be the steppes of southern Russia. Another is Central Asia. Of these, one is grasslands and other a patch of earth inhabited by people who never created anything. According to Western fantasies, perhaps pharmaceutically induced, nomadic barbarians popped out of these places and went on to write something as grand and vast as the Vedas in language of their own in which they were illiterate. Let us review some facts. The four Vedas are in poetic form. They are a work of high literary sophistication using as many as 15 distinct metres. They consist of 20,358 verses. They are far more extensive than the much later literary works like Homer's epics or the Bible. They are a work of literary art created by master wordsmiths. The entire body of literature that may have been produced in the last 6,000 years in the Russian grasslands and in Central Asia would be trivial and puny compared to the timeless majesty of the Vedas.

 

A fictitious invasion by illiterate nomads is hardly the kind of event that will lead to the development of the world's greatest civilization and its greatest body of literature. The simple fact is that to set up a culture or transplant a civilization elsewhere you have to proceed from an already advanced one. Even so, you need brilliant people to do it, not illiterate nomads. And you need ongoing communication links with and prolonged support from your original homeland including a steady flow of people from all walks of life - from the home country to the new land over many generations. As the world's great civilizations go, the Russian Steppes and Central Asia are little more than compost heaps. They have no relevance in any discussion about the Vedic civilization or the origin of Sanskrit.

 

The reports are that the quest for the "original homeland of the Indo-European speakers" continues unabated. Supposedly, at present, "excellent cases" are being made by "scholars" for some new place-to he anointed as the original homeland. It seems that this is about the only thing going on now. If you get the drift, Western Indology is already a dead discipline.

 

The other game is “reconstructing" a fiction called "the proto language”. It goes something like this: Sanskrit, Greek and Latin have strikingly close affinities. Therefore they must have all come from an older "proto language” from a conveniently "assumed" place like Central Asia which is the cradle of all civilization. The proto-Sanskrit speaking Aryans came out of there. Their charging war horses came out of there. Last but not least fantasizing, yam-spinning Western Indologists also came out of there. If you said, hey, wait a minute. None of this makes any sense. Sanskrit is not an Indo-European language. It is Indian. Nothing Indo-European about it. All its antecedents are in India. The many Prakrits, the numerous dialects, the works. It is very old. Probably as old as the air we breathe. Greek and Latin are far too junior to it. Now that would turn everything upside down and force a complete rewriting of ancient history and potentially bring down Western civilization along with Christ and his kingdom to boot. As long as the place of origin is not India, their mission is accomplished which is to deny India's great antiquity, to deny the primacy of Sanskrit and India's supremacy as the greatest civilizing force in the world through the millennia. The pathology underlying this compulsion to falsify history is sustained by a toxic mixture of race, politics and missionizing Christianity the last more harmful than all the world's industrial pollutants.

 

Making no assumptions, relying on no speculations and introducing no extraneous material from other sources, Shrikant Talageri has thoroughly studied and analyzed the extensive ancient sources of India such as the Vedas, the Puranas and other historical literature to give us an accurate picture of our ancient history. Western Indology, a sick-house built on lies, fraud and speculations and sustained by money and Missionary propaganda simply does not have the background, the skills, the honesty and the integrity necessary to undertake an exhaustive study of the primary sources.

 

Thanks to Talageri's work, the distribution of various groups of people during the pre-Vedic and Vedic periods looks as shown in the box. The readers are reminded that this is an India of some six or seven thousand years ago. The population if extrapolated backwards would be only a small fraction of what it is today. Some estimates put India’s population in minus 4000 (early Rigvedic period) at one million and in minus 2000 (late Vedic or Harappan) at five million. Therefore, the information may not quite correspond to the distribution of various groups across the country as we know it today. Also the information presented in the h ox is only what is clearly stated and described in the ancient documents.

 

It is the Purus who created the Vedic civilization in Punjab. They are the movers and shakers the kings, the priests, the poets: the power and the brains, the heart and the soul. It is they who wrote the Vedas. It is they who coined the word Arya.

 

There were no nomads in Vedic India from Central Asia or the Russian Steppes or any other blinking place. Let it be said here and now: The Vedic horse is our own. The Sanskrit language is our own. Our rishis are our own-born and bred right here in this Sacred Land of the Aryas.

 

Compare all this with the malevolent and thoroughly bogus "light-skinned nomadic Aryans" from Central Asia-read "white niggers" or "wiggers" trumpeted by Western Indologists for more than a century as the real poets of the Rigveda.

 

In the face of megatons of mounting evidence from multiple disciplines Witzel, Parpola and others like them are beginning to look more and more like a retarded bunch. They have been left behind by new discoveries and have reduced themselves to a nuisance and a sideshow. Their whole discipline created by Christian missionaries and colonial agents has collapsed. They should make a graceful exit and leave the field.

 

The truth will out sooner or later. This is a natural law. Scholarship must be responsible, objective and reflect the latest discoveries that many have dedicated their whole lives to make. Establishment Western Indology, however, still lives in the nineteenth century ignoring all new evidence and continues to keep its sinking ship of AIT afloat, but the water is rushing in from everywhere taking it down and all aboard with it.

 

2001 - .

a r t i c l e s o n a r y a n i n v a s i o n

http://atributetohinduism.com/articles_aryan_invasion_theory/32.htm

[Guest guest]

The oldest book in the world is the Rig-Veda(4000 BCE).

The Vedic religion developed in the Punjab along

the banks of the Sarasvati river. This mighty

river began to gradually dry up in the centuries

preceding about 1900 BCE by which time it was no more.

There are speculations about what caused it to go

dry. Among them: tectonic shifts, volcanic eruptions

and earthquakes. This also marks the end of the Vedic

age.

 

The drying up of the Sarasvati river produced a

a mass migration of people from west to east

within the country from the Sarasvati to the banks of

the Ganga where the later Vedic religion we now

call Hinduism developed. Many Vedic people also

migrated west and northwest into Persia,

Gandhara(now Afghanistan), Central Asia and

beyond. This is the out of India migration of

Vedic Aryans. It appears that thinkers, writers

and intellectuals migrated from west to east within

the country from the Punjab to the Ganga region. And

the more enterprising ones including kshatriyas left

the country. Around 1900 BCE we see dynasties and

kingdoms springing up all over western Asia

established by rulers from India bearing Sanskrit

names.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Aryan Invasion Theory(AIT) was invented

in the late 19th century. It stuck primarily

because it was introduced into middle- and

high-school curriculums in a country under

foreign occupation. The groups still

supporting it are antinational and subversive

segments of the population such as communists,

rice xians, muslims, two-bit colonial scholars

and agents in the pay of foreign churches and

foreign universities. Not a single person among

the historians who support it such as the ones

you find at institutions like JNU can read

Sanskrit. They are writing our ancient history

without the ability to read primary sources

like the Rigveda in their original Sanskrit. They

are egged on and patted on the back by a few, and

fast vanishing, foreign Indologists none of whom

can read primary Sanskrit sources either.

 

The theory has been dead for many years now. But

it still remains in school history books and must

be removed.

[xxvvii 0]

I've shown many evidence from ET. That's why white race is called as Caucasian. Now I offer the linguistic evid. from an indian scholar.

 

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Hittite and Anatolian Languages

 

Professor Jay Kumar is a scholar and instructor of Latin, Vedic Sanskrit, Ancient Greek, as well as other Ancient Indo-European Languages for the past 10 years. In response to the article on Sanskrit provided at Hinduwebsite, Prof. Jay Kumar made the following observations.

 

...

 

Another VERY important recent theory is that Indo-European and Anatolian may actually be sisters. Indo-Hittite theory believes that the Anatolian languages broke off from this even EARLIER stage of PIE around 7000 BCE to develop on its own. This would explain a lot of the Archaic features of Hittite not found in Sasnskrit, Greek, etc...Although evidence of Hittite comes from Catul Hayuk in Turkey, it doesn't equate to this being the motherland of PIE. As recent evidence now suggests, PIE may be around 5,000 BCE BUT Indo-Hittite (Precursor to PIE) may be 9,000-10,000 BCE!! Thus Sanskrit may be the oldest Indo-European language, BUT Hittite broke away from Proto-Indo-Hittite much before in antiquity.

 

It also proposes that the original PIE homeland WAS NOT Asia Minor but perhaps closer to the Russian Steppe Region north of Black Sea. There is so much info. on recent trends in Indo-European Homeland, archeology, and linguistics. I will be happy to share more as I learn of them.