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Does historical evidence exist of Krishna?

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do the texts state there is historical evidence of Krishna? in relation to him being an existing person that lived, breathed, walked in the same places as they did during the time...(not just as Brahman).

the reason i ask this is because i have been reading interpretations of the mahabarata, and even the names of all the major characters fall inline with their actual behaviour. eg. bhishma = he who has conquered fear. drona = he who fights with weopons. karna = he who is the doer, et cetera. and so i wonder if the mahabarata is literal, or a poem?

do other texts discuss the existance of the kauravas, pandavas? do they make mention anywhere of anything that suggests anything historical?

any helps appreciated!

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I believe that the Mahabharata does speak of a true historical war that took place, but the names used were not the names of the original people given by their parents. over teh 5000 years since the war, many sages, teachers, acharyas and such have changed some of the names (perhaps from 3000BC itself) to fit into the charachter's charachteristics. this does not make it a bad thing and it does not make it fake.

 

there is too much astronomical evidence which corraborates precisely about the war, the charachter's lives and the life of krishna for Him not to exist

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is hardly worth anything. For instance, I could tell a story, completely fictional, and yet in that story I could tell of a real astronomical event. What merit does astronomical evidence really have aside from being able to determine when the story was written?

 

Even then, does the Mahabharata reference real astronomical events? Or maybe a composite of different astronomical events observed over a long time?

 

I never knew that the people in the Mahabharata were named after their characteristics. That's very disappointing as I considered the Mahabharata to be history. Perhaps it's just a poem after all.

 

Does this mean that all the things that happened in the Mahabharata, all the things that humans were able to do is all fiction? Does this mean that the abilities of Bhishma, Bheema, Krishna etc. were all very exaggerated and perhaps nothing but ordinary human acts? That none of them had superpowers?

 

I don't understand why India could not keep good historical records of what actually occurred when other cultures could.

 

It also is very disheartening to me as this would indicate that all those tales of superhuman feats and such was just fiction, and that Krishna may not have really walked on this planet. Or that he may not have really been God.

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i agree india's historical records arent the greatest....but the PUranas, if u read them are an account of ancient indian history wrapped in allegory. what was the reason for the allegory? i dont know. i also do know that the muslim occupation of india has brought the greatest of india down greatly and it would not be far fetched to think that maybe the muslims might have destroyed precious documents of ancient indian history. pre-muslim india was probably the most advanced civilization the world had ever seen but theri desire for peace over ran their need to defend themselves and the muslims came and took over....it is not very well known but it is widely believed that the muslim genocide of hindus from the late 700s AD to about 1700s is the world genocide/holocaust the world has ever seen.

 

as for astronomical data, it is not events like eclipses and things like that. its just basic things like position of the stars. for example.

 

krishna's birth is described with the position of the stars. the exile of the pandavas is explained with the position. it is said that 14 years later they came back. there is data on that too. using computers now, if we can plot the stars and say when exactly they will be in those position, then we can prove whether the story has truth to it.

 

this has been done and almost all the astronomical data from the maha bharata has been documented to be true. every single piece of astronomical data adn the historical event that is associated with that time all correspond. it is believed to have taken place in Nov 3067 BC.

 

this is a published article "Determination of the Dat of the Maha Bharata War" by Professor K. Srinivasan Raghavan, a professor in Chennai.

 

 

i beloieve this may be true. i do know that pre-muslim india, from pre-vedic to early vedic to vedic all the way to buddhist india were all very advanced civilizations. there are many ancient indian documents discussing modern scientific discoveries, so they were very smart ppl who knew of science well. i also know that the muslims, dutch, portugese, and british have oppressed india for a total of about 1200 years and i also know oprression breeds stagnation. this is the reason india is where it is today.

 

for many hundreds of years forgeiners have tried to contort the history of india with claims of aryan invasion and european superiority. in todays day and age, as eurocentracism is slowly dying out, modern researcers are uncovering facts that all point to ancient india's advanced culture.

 

althoguht this doesnt have antyhign to do with the maha bharata, it does show that india's hisotyr and knowledge is being twisted to make it seem fake and primitive. one must first understadn the knowledge before one can dismiss it. most indians today do not even speak sanskrit. personally it hink this is the first step towards regainnig India's position as an advanced nation. our people must regain our culture. everyone should learn sanskrit. it must be taught to children at a young age along with their native language. children learn languages best b4 the age of 5. it must be done early.

 

of corse it will take time, but it will one day all be brought back to light with the help of god and the patience of man

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the fact the Mahabharata is steeped in allegory makes it unreliable. Who cares if there was a war or not? If there was one, it might have been basically what would be considered a minor skirmish today, only exaggerated.

 

What significance would that have then? The Mahabharata would be diminished to nothing but a fable about greed and human vices. The people in the Mahabharata would be simply characters. And Krishna himself would not be God, but a mere mortal who was just deified.

 

I don't know about you, but that's the most heartbreaking thing I can imagine. The tales of wonder and mysticism, of divinity coming into contact with man, of God himself coming to restore dharma and of the grandiose conflicts that occurred in the Mahabharata may turn out to be nothing great at all.

 

Did man ever converse with the gods? Do the gods even exist? Does man really have any power other than his own intellect? Does God even care for man, to come down on Earth to protect the righteous?

 

There's not much that exists to indicate that Krishna existed, let alone that he was God himself.

 

 

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"as for astronomical data, it is not events like eclipses and things like that. its just basic things like position of the stars. for example.

 

krishna's birth is described with the position of the stars. the exile of the pandavas is explained with the position. it is said that 14 years later they came back. there is data on that too. using computers now, if we can plot the stars and say when exactly they will be in those position, then we can prove whether the story has truth to it.

 

this has been done and almost all the astronomical data from the maha bharata has been documented to be true. every single piece of astronomical data adn the historical event that is associated with that time all correspond. it is believed to have taken place in Nov 3067 BC."

 

All that indicates is that the planets and stars were aligned at such a position and that the writers of the Mahabharata were there to document it. Doesn't point to the veracity of the Mahabharata at all.

 

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Jai Ganesh

 

 

 

Re

(All that indicates is that the planets and stars were aligned at such a position and that the writers of the Mahabharata were there to document it. Doesn't point to the veracity of the Mahabharata at all.)

 

It is easy for someone to be doubting and negative for them there is noting to prove, for the faithful it is years of tapasya, search and you will find the proof you seek. The fact that the writers were there to document it speaks volume, did not do it to tell stories, purans means history not just the history of near past but of different yugas also, if we do not understand them is our shotcomings. None of the writers are saying this is my imagination and what a master piece they have written, all painstakingly on a palm leaf. To day to learn Sanskrit it takes years to know the basics but to give an example Sankracharya, he mastered all the Vedas by the age of sixteen how clever were our ancestors they lead the life of truth, story of Raja Harishchandra is to behold, to doubt those noble sages is a kick in the teeth to them or our own misfortune. Muslims did their bit in trying to destroy the truth or distort it and the Europeans did their bit in sawing the seed of doubt and destroyed the gurukul system, but the truth can never be destroyed, our tradition had been based on oral handing down and some of it has been clouded by foreign contamination but as we say lead us from darkness to light from mortal to eternal bliss, the truth will prevail Lord Krishna is that truth which is in every corner of our street, from west to east north to south there is his mandir no human let alone an imagination can occupy that postion.As for Vedas and Bhagvat Gita is there any other literature and philosophy to even compare with?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

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if they happened or not? The wisdom contained in these scriptures is too great to be tossed aside because the stories never happened. I think the sages just came up with these stories to make a point. If you analyze them enough, you come up with more than if you just read them at face value. The happenings in our tiny little meaningless universe are less important than a candle's flame against the brilliance of the sun, compared to the light of Brahman.

 

"For instance, I could tell a story, completely fictional, and yet in that story I could tell of a real astronomical event. What merit does astronomical evidence really have aside from being able to determine when the story was written?"

 

This reminds me of the Christian Bible. Christians point out that there are too many parallels between the Old Testament prophecies and the events that surrounded Jesus' birth. What they don't understand is that these events were most likely added in by the gospel authors TO MAKE A POINT. Even Catholicism accepts that stories like that of the Three Wise Men and the Star of Bethlehem are probably metaphorical. It is especially suspicious that the Gospel writer who was most knowledgeable about Hebrew writings and prophecy is the only one who mentions these phenomena. Also, the Old Testament was compiled by Christians after the Gospels were written, so they got to pick and choose prophecies that fit the story of Jesus, and toss away those that didn't.

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Who cares if they strive to make a point? When the point is irrelevant to begin with? If Krishna never existed, why have bhakti for him? An imaginary character who is our ideal God? And yet what proof is there God actually cares for us? Why have bhakti for God when God may not care about us?

 

What makes life have any meaning at all? Are all the talk of miracles and power inherent in man, but forgotten, merely metaphors? Is life truly meaningless? If so, why are we even here? What's the talk of miracles and human divinity mean if it's all lies?

 

 

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how to express it in words. I guess it's just an understanding that comes through experience and contemplation. I would never ask someone else to believe in something they could not accept and for which I had no concrete evidence, but at the same time I know these things without doubt to be true, so I can't give them up for myself.

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is life really as drab and meaningless as it seems? I find it hard to believe, as the sages must have reason to believe in divinity within man and the unlimited possibilities in life when the shakti has risen.

 

I want to believe in the Mahabharata, as it is a story that illustrates what may have been once possible in this world, and within yourself. Not to mention a world where men and gods interact.

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Jai Ganesh

 

I do care, i know you do too but wisely. what is a metaphore, what is cryptic, is hard to tell, what i do know is the sages were far more advanced then us, they did not write all those stuff and forgot, to tell us by the way it is only a fiction.we may accept the path they followed or we may search the truth going round in circle eventualy we will find our resting place.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

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I always wonder if these events were really historical or not. But what about the thousands of sages throughout history who have experienced God and had divine visions, surely they can't be wrong, otherwise Hinduism would've died a long time ago. For Hinduism to have survived so long, without missionaried even, means there must be some truth in it.

 

But for now archeologists have found Dwarka, the city where Krishna's kingdom stood submerged under water.

Read the following.

 

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm

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All that indicates is that the planets and stars were aligned at such a position and that the writers of the Mahabharata were there to document it. Doesn't point to the veracity of the Mahabharata at all.

 

 

 

It does not even had to be like this. it is easy to mention an astronomical date in a story if the author or one of the authors knows something about astronomy. Does not mean the author(s) lived in the same time. Many romans and movies are made in certain times while the story itself takes place in the past.

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Also, the Old Testament was compiled by Christians after the Gospels were written, so they got to pick and choose prophecies that fit the story of Jesus, and toss away those that didn't.

 

 

 

 

A little bit off topic but apart from the critic they DO deserve I have to say that writing the OT was TECHNICALLY impossible for the gospelwriters .They lived and composed AFTER Common era ( 1-3th century ) and the oldest existing OT testaments manuscripts ( dead sea scrolls )are much older.

 

But let me stay on topic

 

The Mahabharata still has nice stories though.

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yes after reading it again I saw it. Well..it 's late now /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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surely they can't be wrong, otherwise Hinduism would've died a long time ago.

 

 

 

surely they can't be wrong, otherwise Islam would've died a long time ago.

 

Surely stealing and raping can't be wrong, otherwise these things would've died long ago.

 

Same logic.

Old does not always means gold.

 

Anyway, let us look at the possiblity that some Mahabharat stories could have been PARTIALLY based on real person(s ).

 

Yes, not unthinkeble.

 

Hey....get rid of all the legends and myths around count Dracula you will see that even this myth is partially based on a real guy! This real existed prince was literally making staked kebab of the Turks. But he could not fly like a bat and he probably did eat garlick too!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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ive been told that the lineage of kings spoken of in the mahabarata are real. apparently it lists some hundred or so kings who actually did exist. does anyone know of this? i guess that would make things a bit more 'real'. besides that and the astrological evidence, we do have the existance of dwaraka, as well as the existance of kurukshetra. circumstancial at best, but perhaps theres more yet to be found. another thing is the veda on the art of archery seems to make mention of arjuna...

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Obviously we can't take the whole Mahabharata or Ramayana to be true. There is mention of things like the world being carried on the backs of four elephants, and that is not true for certain, so to believe in what *could* be true but is unlikely doesn't make much sense either.

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"Obviously we can't take the whole Mahabharata or Ramayana to be true. "

 

obviously you cannot expect to understand a religious text being a non pratictioneer or a neophite

 

if a first class pupil reads a text of byology's university he simply believes that there's magic, fantasy, myths, mistakes, strangeness and so on

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I cannot see the logic behind validating krishna;s existence......

Our religion of sanatana dharma / hinduism is based on principles.....not on personalities.....

the teachings are imp....not the person...........

 

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i agree india's historical records arent the greatest....

 

First of all I don't agree with that statement at all, for someone who reads vedic literature thats a very very weak statement to make.

 

And for all who do not beleive that the mahabharata is fact or that it is allegory.. please read this article by prabhupada of iskon..

prabhupada is a real spiritual kshatriya.

 

http://india.krishna.org/Articles/2003/01/018.html

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