vaishnavism is independent / Shaivism is dependent

[Guest guest]

Let us forget about whether scriptures say Vishnu is supreme or Siva is supreme. Let us discuss about day-to-day Vaishnavism and Shaivism.

 

1) The worship of vishnu is complete in itself - Krishna, though viswaroopa to arjuna and through his teachings in Gita established himself as the supreme. We need not go searching for the vedas, upanishads (or) we need not show how vishnu is superior to shiva, Brahma etc. Even in Vishnu purana, Vishnu is said to have created brahma and shiva - thats it - there are no fancy stories which show that brahma or Siva become fools in front of Vishnu.

 

Vaishnavites rarely use stories that shows superiority of vishnu over siva. If we want to use, there are lots. For example, in Valmiki Ramayan, there is a story of a fight between Vishnu and Siva where vishnu wins hands down. In bhagavatam there is a mention of war between krishna and siva where Krishna wins. The water that flows from the feet of vishnu (ganga) is adorned on the head of siva and

is considered as his wife. There are many more such stories. None of these stories are ever used to show the greatness of Vishnu. We dont need such stories to show the greatness of vishnu because Bhagavad Gita, along with the teachings and heroic deeds of Rama and Krishna are sufficient for us. Even though Valmiki ramayan clearly mentions that Hanuman is an ansha or avatar of siva, we never use it much.

 

On the other hand Shaivism is dependent upon vishnu in a large manner. To show that Shiva is supreme, one has to show that vishnu is inferior. In a reputed telugu magazine swathi, recently on the Shivratri day, the story of how vishnu got his sudershan from Shiva was published. Recently, on the occasion holi recently, the story of how vishnu in the form pig dug into the bottom but could not find the end of Shiva was published. I find several reputed mainstream magazines doing the same. On the occasion of janmashtami do you ever find the mention of krishna's was victory over Shiva in any magazine ??

On the occasion of Vaikunta Ekadasi, do you ever find the story of Vishnu's victory over Shiva mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan in any magazine ??. Valmiki Ramayan does not make even a single mention of Ram praying to Shiva - infact there is a mention of Ram praying to Vishnu because Ikshwaku dynasty's kula daivam is Vishnu (it is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan). The story of Ram worshipping Shiva is a latter day's concoction of Shaivites. There are hundreds of temples all over India which claim to have Shiva lingas worshipped by Ram. And even though Ramayan explicitly states that Hanuman is an ansha of iswara, we rarely ever make use of this fact to prove the supremacy of Vishnu.

 

My question to Shaivites is - Can Saivites understand siva tatva without showing Vishnu as Inferior. Why is saivism so much dependent on Vaishnavism if siva is so supreme ??

 

 

2) Vishnu puranas describe Vishnu as supreme. Do Siva puranas do so. The answer surprisingly is - no.

 

Do you know how Siva got the title maheswara or mahadeva ?? For destroying tripurasuras, the three flying puras should be destroyed with one single arrow.

Siva finds that his energy is not sufficient to destroy the three puras with one arrow - his energy is just half the required. Therefore all the three crore devatas decide to give their energy to Siva. After getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva then destroys the three puras. On account of getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva is called mahadeva or maha iswara.

 

The same with Durga - She gets her energy because all the other devas give their strength to her. Vishnu gives her one discuss, Siva gives her one trident, Indra gives her vajra and so on. Durga becomes Shakti because all the other Devas give their shakti to her.

 

The same with Ganesha. He gets his obstacle removing capability of by virtue of a boon from Siva.

 

For the three Dieties Siva, Durga and Ganesh - they get their energies from others - their energy is not innate in them. It is because all others decide to give their

energies to them that they become supreme. They have not been great since time.

 

Here again is the dependence of Saivism on other devas.

 

Can Saivites answer these questions ??

 

[Guest guest]

This is really really funny.

Gods fighting with each other , god giving powers to other gods. Looks like gods were behaving like project managers.

 

This posting will be a shame on hinduism if a person from other religion reads it .

[Guest guest]

philosophical discussions..

 

no harm, only bliss

[Guest guest]

YOu are Hypocritical.

If you feel that, Vishnu should not be comapred with anybody, then why do you compare Vaishnavisam against Shaivisam?

 

I would agree, if you have said "Vishnu is independent". By adding "Shiva is dependent", you are comparing both, and your arguement stands cancelled.

[Guest guest]

YOu are Hypocritical.

If you feel that, Vishnu should not be comapred with anybody, then why do you compare Vaishnavisam against Shaivisam? >>

 

I have posted this because I feel bad at the way Vishnu is openly and publicly shown to be inferior to Shiva at every possible opprtunity by the Shaivites.

 

Ramayan, Mahabharat, Bhagavatam and so many other vishnu puranas have been translated onto television over the past few years. Do you find Siva being shown inferior to Vishnu in any of these serials. There might atmost be a small exception here and there as demanded by the story. It is not that we cannot do that. We have sufficient material to do it. Recently I was watching the story of markandeya on television. In the serial, markandeya asks his guru as to why Vishnu did not have halahalam and why only Siva could have it. This followed with a speech by markandeya on why and how Siva is superior to Vishnu in many many ways. The way in which Vaishnavites were portrayed in the serial was so bad that I felt really exasperated. And this serial was telecasted on Television !

 

If Valmiki Ramayan is translated word for word in English, it would easily come to 3000 pages. In such a large prose, there is not a single mention of Ram praying to Siva. Yet Ram is again and again claimed to be a devotee of Shiva and hundreds of important Siva temples in india derive their sanctity because Ram worshipped Siva. This is the biggest bogus that can be there. Cant Saivites understand Siva without Ram.

 

Forget about Siva, Saivites cannot understand even Durga and GAnesh without showing Vishnu inferior to them. The durga puja that is conducted for four days in Bengal has the basis as Ram for it. It seems that Ram worshipped Durga and got her blessings during those four days. There are many ganesh temples in maharshtra which claim that Vishnu attained his Siddhi or something from Ganesh at that location. And these Ganesh temples are not more than 100 or 200 years old !

 

There are some vaishnavite temples too which have associated legends which show Siva in inferior light. But such temples are few in number. For 10 such shaivite shrines, there might atmost be one such vaishnavite shrine.

 

The best example is Badri/Kedar. Badrinath temples derives its sanctity from the fact that the statue was installed by Bhrahma, devatas worship it for 6 months and manavas worship it for 6 months. It is the holiest shrine in Uttaranchal, more important than Kedarnath in significance. Yet, there is no legend which denegrates Shiva. However, when you go to Kedarnath - you know what they say ?? They say that the shivling at Kedarnath was worshipped by Nar/Narayan - they attained their siddhi here. They will even tell you that Badrinath is a witness diety who gives witness to Shiva that piligrims have visited Kedarnath.

 

Kasi, Kedar, Srisailam, Rameswaram to name a few, most of great shiv temples have legends which show Vishnu in poor light. Tirupati, Srirangam, guruvayoor, udipi, Dwaraka, Nathdwara, Gaya, Badrinath, Bhadrachalam, Puri - None of them have legends that show Shiva in poor light.

 

Siva worship is heavily dependent on Vishun being shown inferior.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

Let us revive the philosophy of Bhagavatam as expounded by Shrila Prabhupadha at this juncture of figthing over Shiva or Vishnu.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam says that Shiva is one of the twelve Mahajanas or very great exalted devotees and confidential associates of Lord Vishnu.Lord Shiva is a superior Vaishnava Acharya and there is even a Rudra Sampradaya among four Vaishnava Sampradayas(The others are Sri Sampradaya,Kumara Sampradaya and Brahma Sampradaya).Lord Nimbarka came under the Rudra Sampradaya.

 

In Vishnu Sahasranamam Lord Shiva says "Sri rama rama ramthi..." ie he always chant Rama's name.

 

All these things imply that Lord Shiva is mentor of how to render devotional service to Vishnu.He took Hanuman Avatar to set forth an example.

 

Hence we Vaishnava followers must give full respect to Lord Shiva due to his highly exalted position in devotional service.Lord Vishnu never tolerates his foremost devotee and material administrator Shiva to be criticized by Vaishnavas.

 

Hence even when Saivites degrade Vishnu and claim him to be inferior and all,we Vaishnavas must not indulge in degrading Shiva for such an act is a clear impediment on devotional progress due to commiting a Vaishnava Aparadha.

 

For one who reads the Srimad Bhagavatam,we will appreciate how advanced Shiva is,in Vishnu worship.Lord Shiva is our mentor and we must take his advice 'Sri rama rama ramethy rame rame manorame" and chant Lord Rama and other Hari's names and attain Vaikundha.

[Guest guest]

you've chosen a biased source to base your arguments on. prabhupada has made a number of anti-shiva statements in his time. some of them are laughable. take for consideration statements such as shiva being 75% of the total Brahman, or that Arjuna apparently defeated Shiva to gain the pashupata missile. Prabhupada seems notorious to me for making highly self serving arguments that can't be worked around simply because of the ambiguity of the subject. and people followed his every word. dont get me wrong, i respect him, and I respect 'BG As It Is' - but it is a biased book. By prabhupada's influence, shiva has become a farce. and might i add the myths concocted by both vishnu followers and shiva followers makes poor evidence for such arguments as this. why? because despite what they say, the fact remains: shiva is shakti, and the destroyer. an essential component of the one supreme brahman. the trinity are mere representations of the different facets of the One lord. the functions of creation, preservation and destruction require each other. to argue one is better then the other is pointless. there is a BIG difference between allocating certain qualities of god to different deities, in comparison to various deities having godly qualities in different amounts! its a shame nobody here understands this.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(the fact remains: shiva is shakti, and the destroyer. an essential component of the one supreme brahman. the trinity are mere representations of the different facets of the One lord. the functions of creation, preservation and destruction require each other. to argue one is better then the other is pointless. there is a BIG difference between allocating certain qualities of god to different deities, in comparison to various deities having godly qualities in different amounts! its a shame nobody here understands this.)

 

i concur on this point. it is on such squabbles spritulity becomes a farce.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

Lord Shiva is the ultimate medium for understanding Vishnu.

 

Lord Shiva is described as the spiritual master of the universe. Lord Vishnu is the Father that we aim to understand through the mercy of Shiva.

 

It is obvious and will remain so:

 

Lord Krishna states His supremacy. And Lord Shiva also states Krishna's supremacy. I don't see where there is room for argument really.

 

 

[prabhupada has made a number of anti-shiva statements in his time.]

 

as if Srila Prabhupada is against Lord Shiva. He has nothing but the utmost respect for Lord Shiva.

 

[take for consideration statements such as shiva being 75% of the total Brahman]

 

No, the opulences and qualities of Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva are thoroughly described in different places in the Vedas. One of the Vaishnava acharyas took all this information together to quantify the opulence of the personalities. Krishna is considered to display all opulences. When Krishna is performing the work of destruction he transforms into Lord Shiva, whereby 86% of the opulences are displayed. Lord Brahma is the highest jiva, displaying 75% of the opulences. All Jivas can attain 75% as maximum.

 

"Arjuna apparently defeated Shiva to gain the pashupata missile"

 

I don't think Prabhupada says such a thing. In fact we accept that Arjuna was overpowered by Lord Shiva and surrendered to Shiva after which Shiva showed his true identity. Of course Shiva would overpower Arjuna. Arjuna is jiva-tattva whilst Shiva is shiva-tattva.

 

[Prabhupada seems notorious to me for making highly self serving arguments that can't be worked around simply because of the ambiguity of the subject.]

 

Absolute rubbish. You are just stating opinions which are absolutely useless unless backed up by evidence. And you just cause offence to the Lord by offending His devotee.

 

 

[the myths concocted by both vishnu followers and shiva followers makes poor evidence for such arguments as this]

 

no myths have been concocted. All evidence is there in the scriptures.

 

[the functions of creation, preservation and destruction require each other]

 

totally agree. And Narayana + Mahavishnu are described as transcendental to all the three functions you have just described.

 

 

[in comparison to various deities having godly qualities in different amounts!]

 

of course if it is a product of the imagination than it is unreliable. However, if as in the case of Jiva Goswami, it is a product of all the different references to the deities' opulences in the Vedic scriptures, then it is perfectly valid. Of course percentages are given as analogies so that we can understand in the frame of our own measurements.

 

Hare Krishna,

Your Servant.

[Guest guest]

"No, the opulences and qualities of Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva are thoroughly described in different places in the Vedas. One of the Vaishnava acharyas took all this information together to quantify the opulence of the personalities. Krishna is considered to display all opulences. When Krishna is performing the work of destruction he transforms into Lord Shiva, whereby 86% of the opulences are displayed. Lord Brahma is the highest jiva, displaying 75% of the opulences. All Jivas can attain 75% as maximum."

 

this may be so, but while the vaishnava acharya might have had the intention of outlining opulences, prabhupada used this openly to denigrate shiva to 'demigod' status. extreme care should have been taken with such a statement. while im sure it makes vishnu followers feel very rosy, it is a poor representation of what shiva is. did you know indians have only salvaged 6% of the total amount of vedas that once existed? how can we speculate for sure on how many attributes were given? and would you lessen your respect for Lord Shiva over the research of an acharya?

 

the statement he made about arjuna defeating shiva is there in his Bahagavad Gita As It Is: chapter 2, verse 33, read the purport.

 

"Absolute rubbish. You are just stating opinions which are absolutely useless unless backed up by evidence. And you just cause offence to the Lord by offending His devotee."

 

well when asked by someone "what is a scientist", prabhupada's reply was "a scientist means one who knows things as they are. Krishna means all attractive. therefore if God has any name, or if you want to give any name to God, only 'Krishna' can be given, because He's all attractive. Krishna means all attractive".

when the man asked "what about all powerful?"

prabhupada's reply was "yes, unless you are powerful, how can you be all attractive?"

 

when asked if god could be called Christ, his reply was "Krishna in greek is Kristos, same as Christ.".

 

these are small examples of flimsy justification and akward logic. there are many such examples in his commentaries, if you wish to read.

 

like i said earlier, i respect his work, and the man. but while his statements make full sense, their justifications do not, therefore i consider them to be self-serving arguments.

[madhavdaitha 0]

Dear Mr.Mannar,

 

To tell you the answer, I will ask you the question first. If you can answer it perfectly, then the answer is in your answer only.

 

Question

---------

In the Government Hiearchy, right from the Head to the Class Four, who is entirely responsible for the success of the goal of the Department. To be clear, who is totally responsible, i.e, without the help of any other, can do the entire job.

 

Your immediate answer would be the head of the Department, but can he do the job without the help of his class four who will take the pressure of moving the files, doing the labour work at the office or to that matter any one in the chain, if failed, the job would not be completed. As in this situation, Every God is given the specific job to be done and without either of them, our existence would be unimaginable.

 

Any where, I like Lord Vishnu, I praise him and someone likes Lord Shiva, they praise Lord Shiva, and others like other God and they start praising him. So, to make a decision, do not be biased and judge unbiased. Actually speaking, above the positions of Brahma (Creator), Vishnu (Protector), Shiva (Destroyer) there is only one supreme. That supreme is called Vishnu by Vaishnavas and Shiva by Shivaites.

 

To make this clear, our scriputers say that "Shiva and Vishnu Mediate each other"

 

So, none is supreme all are doing their job. You need not get depressed, when Lord Vishnu is shown inferior to Shiva as it is done only by people who do not understand and you need not worry on an ignorant person's remarks or stories.

 

Keep up you reaction, but please be on the positive side of it.

 

Bye,

Madhav Daitha

daithamadhav@

 

[Guest guest]

Even assuming Shiva or Vishnu, one inferior to other,even that inferior position we cannot just imagine.We are like an ant and its between two everests.One should not waste energy in brain discussions, on spiritual topics.The ultimate aim is that the thoughts must get purified and soul must rest in peace even in distress and happines, alike.Hence Vaishnavas must glorify Vishnu and Shaivities Shiva.

 

Hence as told by Madhav,all our aim should be getting spiritually elevated and controlling sense desire.That is our major objective.Then as a man on true knowledge,we can start out like Sage Bhrigu to find who is supreme.But now let us practice humility and adhere to our path and proceed.No one is ever going to get convinced and come to other side.All our arguments are based on the preconceived emotional aspect only.And we all quote from the same vedas and other scriptures.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Let us forget about whether scriptures say Vishnu is supreme or Siva is supreme. Let us discuss about day-to-day Vaishnavism and Shaivism.

 

1) The worship of vishnu is complete in itself - Krishna, though viswaroopa to arjuna and through his teachings in Gita established himself as the supreme. We need not go searching for the vedas, upanishads (or) we need not show how vishnu is superior to shiva, Brahma etc. Even in Vishnu purana, Vishnu is said to have created brahma and shiva - thats it - there are no fancy stories which show that brahma or Siva become fools in front of Vishnu.

 

Vaishnavites rarely use stories that shows superiority of vishnu over siva. If we want to use, there are lots. For example, in Valmiki Ramayan, there is a story of a fight between Vishnu and Siva where vishnu wins hands down. In bhagavatam there is a mention of war between krishna and siva where Krishna wins. The water that flows from the feet of vishnu (ganga) is adorned on the head of siva and

is considered as his wife. There are many more such stories. None of these stories are ever used to show the greatness of Vishnu. We dont need such stories to show the greatness of vishnu because Bhagavad Gita, along with the teachings and heroic deeds of Rama and Krishna are sufficient for us. Even though Valmiki ramayan clearly mentions that Hanuman is an ansha or avatar of siva, we never use it much.

 

On the other hand Shaivism is dependent upon vishnu in a large manner. To show that Shiva is supreme, one has to show that vishnu is inferior. In a reputed telugu magazine swathi, recently on the Shivratri day, the story of how vishnu got his sudershan from Shiva was published. Recently, on the occasion holi recently, the story of how vishnu in the form pig dug into the bottom but could not find the end of Shiva was published. I find several reputed mainstream magazines doing the same. On the occasion of janmashtami do you ever find the mention of krishna's was victory over Shiva in any magazine ??

On the occasion of Vaikunta Ekadasi, do you ever find the story of Vishnu's victory over Shiva mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan in any magazine ??. Valmiki Ramayan does not make even a single mention of Ram praying to Shiva - infact there is a mention of Ram praying to Vishnu because Ikshwaku dynasty's kula daivam is Vishnu (it is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan). The story of Ram worshipping Shiva is a latter day's concoction of Shaivites. There are hundreds of temples all over India which claim to have Shiva lingas worshipped by Ram. And even though Ramayan explicitly states that Hanuman is an ansha of iswara, we rarely ever make use of this fact to prove the supremacy of Vishnu.

 

My question to Shaivites is - Can Saivites understand siva tatva without showing Vishnu as Inferior. Why is saivism so much dependent on Vaishnavism if siva is so supreme ??

 

 

2) Vishnu puranas describe Vishnu as supreme. Do Siva puranas do so. The answer surprisingly is - no.

 

Do you know how Siva got the title maheswara or mahadeva ?? For destroying tripurasuras, the three flying puras should be destroyed with one single arrow.

Siva finds that his energy is not sufficient to destroy the three puras with one arrow - his energy is just half the required. Therefore all the three crore devatas decide to give their energy to Siva. After getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva then destroys the three puras. On account of getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva is called mahadeva or maha iswara.

 

The same with Durga - She gets her energy because all the other devas give their strength to her. Vishnu gives her one discuss, Siva gives her one trident, Indra gives her vajra and so on. Durga becomes Shakti because all the other Devas give their shakti to her.

 

The same with Ganesha. He gets his obstacle removing capability of by virtue of a boon from Siva.

 

For the three Dieties Siva, Durga and Ganesh - they get their energies from others - their energy is not innate in them. It is because all others decide to give their

energies to them that they become supreme. They have not been great since time.

 

Here again is the dependence of Saivism on other devas.

 

Can Saivites answer these questions ??

 

 

Just calm down.

 

Here some questions.

 

Noncan compare gods.Atleast we humanbeings the worst living beings.

 

Only shiva has both the idols as lingam and as murthi.

 

You can see only that shiva has sons and family.

 

Why did vishu come to the earth in different forms?

 

Shiva always say pray both of us.

 

Shiva is the person who gave half to Shakthi.

 

Why are more Lingas then any other idols.

 

Why do people pray lord venkateswar in this Yuga?

 

Have anyone have any proofs?I do not think so.

 

Why are we fighting for god also?

[Guest guest]

There is only one God with hundreds and millions of names, forms, qualities, attributes, and pastimes.

 

Different jivas are given a certain type of faith, by the revealing grace of God or the concealing grace of God.

 

These different types of faith makes the neophyte or kanistha person turn a blind eye to certain things in their religion. Like the saying, "Love is blind."

 

 

 

If you are so in love with Vishnu then why not focus on Vishnu then? Why not engage 24/7 in bhajan of your Istha Devata then? By trying to start fights and sowing discord I really wonder if you are fully uttama adhikari position. Sounds more like kanistha ashikari.

 

 

 

By going around trying to get others see how good your Istha Devata is then is like you are married to Britney Spears and telling others, "Do not look at Cristina Aguilera, you infidel!"

 

If you really loved Britney Spears you would just worship and take care of Britney Spears and make sure she does not drop her baby and put baby in the back seat of her car not on her lap when she is driving down the PCH.

 

 

 

So if you really love Vishnu then I am happy for you. Now let others who love Shiva love Shiva. Do you think it is a popularity contest to see who is highest paid actress in the world or something and who is selling the most CDs?

 

If you believe in Vishnu good for you. What is your inner bhajan like these days, how you can spend so much time to cut down others' Istha Devata?

[Guest guest]

A very funny discussion, shows how secatarian Hindus are copying the attitude of muslims. As for whether or not Shiva or Vishnu is dependent or which one is supreme, it doesn't matter as they are all manifestations of Brahman.

[Guest guest]

B'coz Vishnu's supremacy has to be always established only by belitting a Shiva Devotee.

 

Rama - Ravana

Vamana - Mahabali

 

 

They could have very well established their supremacies in different ways...

 

How come 'Sarvesvara' got wrongly interpreted as vishnu by chaitanya.

[Guest guest]

In Sanatana Dharma, Vedas form the basic principles. The four vedas are the most authentic source of information about Sanatana Dharma. The great upanishads are parts of the Vedas. If we consider this both Shiva and Vishnu are given inferior status in the Vedas. Having said that, however, the song in praise of Sri Rudra Purusha-Shiva is the foremost in all the four Vedas. This is said in Suta Samhitha which praises that Rudra-Shiva form the basis of all other gods and infact if one praises Lord shiva-Rudra all other gods are praised. That means without making any COMPARISON the supremacy of Lord Shiva is established in Yajur Veda itself. Shiva doesn't require Vishnu to prove his supremacy. He is Supreme by himself. Yajur Veda is considered to be the foremost of the 4 Vedas. In that the central portion of 700 mantras are occupied by the praise of Lord Shiva-Rudra (Satarudriyah).

 

In fact Lord Vishnu does not have such a prominent place in Yajur Veda which is said to be the prime Veda of the 4.

 

In Shaiva Puranas, Skanda Purana, Shivamaha Purana and the Linga Purana describe Lord shiva as the lord of the universe. Ironically in Vishnu Purana we find Sage Parasara as saying at the beinning of the Purana that all the three in the trinity are Important but only because of Lord Vishnu being the protector of the world he is prayed more and given importance.

 

Some vaishnavas donot accept parashurama as an Incarnation of lord Vishnu himself just because he was an ardent devotee of Lord Shiva. This shows that Vaishnavas have a very narrow and shallow approach to others who worship Shiva as the supreme. From time immemorial Shiva was (and continues so) insulted and humbled by Vaishnavas to show that Vishnu is independent. Shiva's Supremacy has Vedic sanction. His Viraat swaruupa is worshipped in Sri Rudram. Shaiva Puranas establish him as the supreme.

 

The Swetasvatara Upanishad hails Lord Shiva (Purusha) in his Universal form. There is a widespread opinion that The Bhagavad Gita is a latter addition to Mahabhartha, which could quite be true given the Vaishnavas' tradition of Shiva bashing. Unable to accept the growing prominence of Lord Shiva the Vaishnavas may well have created the Bhagavadgita and added it to the Mahabaratha. Interestingly the Mahabaratha contain hundreds of verses sung by Krishna in praise of Lord Shiva and his universal form, an example being the Shiva Sahasranama. Shiva except the four lines in the Vishnu Sahasranama has not sung anything, as big as the Shiva Sahasranama, in praise of Lord Vishnu.

 

Apart from all these the Bhagavat purana cannot be said fully to be the creation of Veda vyasa himself since he himself accepts that the Bhagavad Purana is the last Purana he wrote, whatever may be the story. Here again the Bhagavat Purana has many sections in praise of Lord Shiva by Krishna.

 

Lord Krishna also has the distinction of presenting the 1008 names of Lord Shiva, in which, the universal form is also included. These are inspite of the fact that the compiler of the Vedas and the Puranas was a Vaishnavite (Sage Vedavyasa). No one can question his wisdom. But Shiva doesnot have the advantage of having a Shaivaite doing that work. So many later works arose describing the true supremacy of Lord Shiva the prominent amongst these is the Shiva Rahasya Ithihaasa which is as long as the Mahabaratha and contains the Ribhu Gita (which is a renowned spiritual work).

 

It is a fact that till today Vaishnavas hate and insult Lord Shiva. But Shaivaites Understand that there is no meaning in insulting Lord Vishnu simply because of the fact that they donot want to waste thier energy in these petty things. Kurma Purana Insists that in this Kali Era only Lord Shivas name can release men from bondage. And so Shaivites practise that.

 

Only a person having less will feel Jealous about some other person who is having more!!! Isn't it true???

 

OM NAMAHSHIVAYA

[Guest guest]

from: Hinduism's Contemporary Culture

 

Sutra 232 Not Demeaning Other Sects or Religions

Shiva's devotees do not speak disrespectfully about other Hindu lineages, their beliefs, Gods, sacred sites, scriptures, holy men or women. Nor do they disparage other religions.

 

Sutra 234 Maintaining A Hindu Solidarity

Shiva's devotees know that for eons our religion has come forward to create a Hindu unity. Therefore, they are dedicated to building whenever necessary, and keeping strong always, an invincible Hindu solidarity.

 

Sutra 235 Harmony Between Denominations

Shiva's devotees, with hearts as big as the sky, love and accept Smarta, Shakta, and Vaisnava brothers and sisters, even if not accepted by them, and keep harmony by not discussing differences.

 

Shiva is the God of Love and nothing else but Love. He fills the Universe with Love. He fills you with Love. -- Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya

 

 

 

All of these names: Shiva, Vishnu are names that describe various attributes and qualities of the Divine. Shiva means auspicious. The Divine is not a human being who neurotically needs our pledge of allegiance to the flag like an insecure boy/girlfriend or despotic ruler. The Divine is pure saccidananda as is our essence. The Divine permeates our lives in so many ways, so much so that there are many different names for all of its characteristics and energies as elucidated by the great rsis, seers, and bhaktars.

 

One of the attributes of the Divine is it can bestow upon the jiva concealing grace or revealing grace. Thus there are many different jivas who embrace and adhere to different faiths, due to their past life punya and sukritya. The Divine is revealing or concealing Him/Herself accordingly to each individual.

 

 

 

It is possible that in the past and even today some persons without full

realization of the Divine did some less than benefic political things with the various scriptures of the world in order to manipulate others and to present their own program. Also is possible that some persons today are only exposed to limited amount of teachings or only certain scriptures and as such have limited realization and knowledge of the full scope of subject of the Divine.

 

It would be a kindness if we could strive to patiently share what we know in a gentle way without invoking the anava mala or ego "My way is better." At the time of death we want the anava mala or ego to decrease not increase. If we have any beads left on our anava mala at the time of death it means rebirth for us. The one bead we want left on our mala is not the anava or any of the 36 tattvas but our transcendental relationship with the Divine.

 

 

 

There are 14 valid schools that each can reach perfection in Hinduism. Each sampradaya corresponds with a different path up the sushumna spine to reach the door of Brahma or the seventh chakra of Sahasrara. Thus Vaisnavism and Shaivism are each a legitimate path in Hindu Dharma.

 

The thing to remember is any name for the Divine is simply a name we are ascribing to certain qualities of Brahman or Absolute Reality and there are many paths to perfection. Which path the jiva traverses is guided by the Divine who is overseeing everyone' progress and everything in the entire three worlds. Thus, "There is not one wrong thing" --Sage Yogaswami.

 

 

 

Hinduism is a wonderful religion with many choices for the individual found within the scope of the four main branches of Vaisnava, Shakta, Smarta, and Shaivite. Within each branch are souls with varying levels of realization. The jiva emerges somewhat like a seed or bija from the tatastha and ultimately becomes perfect one day as naturally as a fruit ripening and then falling from a tree. The Divine is guiding every step of the way lovingly for each soul.

 

Even within this lifetime some people may begin in one branch and then move to another as their object of veneration or Istha Devata changes. As such, it is possible that some Vaisnavas may love and respect Shiva very very much. Therefore perhaps while boldly defending Hindu Dharma just be a little careful when saying "all" people of a certain faith feel and do whatever. Aum Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

In the Gita, Krishna says "among the Rudras I am Shiva". There's no difference, there's only one God with many names and forms.

[ombakth 0]

Hindu Sadhus, Rishis, Yogis etc... were all Shramans not Brahmans.

It is well known that our Hindu Sadhu, Rishis, Yogis etc.. used to say "Alakh Niranjan" it can be possible that Mohammed must have made Allah from Alakh because Alakh Niranjan is a phrase used in Hinduism and Shikism to describe the characteristics of God and the Self Atman. Alakh means "that which is not seen" and niranjan means "without any stains."

Even Guru Nanak had told his follower to pray to Alakh Niranjan.

All Dharmic religion believe in the significance of OM.

Shri Ram recited OM. Shri Ram is himself Om.

Shri Krishna recited OM. Shri Krishna is himself Om.

Mahavir Vardhman recited OM. Mahavir Vardhman is himself Om.

Gautam Buddha recited OM. Gautam Buddha is himself Om.

All mantras has OM.

All tantras has OM.

Even Shri Ganesh is also called Omkara.

OM is another form of Shiva. Shiv is himself Om.

OM is another form of Vishnu. Vishnu is himself Om.

OM is another form of Parabrahma. Brahma is himself Om.

Hence OM is the unity of all gods and OM is the formless and idoless true originater of entire universe. It is also said that everything came from OM and will end into OM.

Hence praying to OM is not wrong. OM will unite all differenet sects and caste in India. OM can unite all religion into ancient Indian Dharma.

[ombakth 0]

Mohammed had derived his idea from Indian religion. If you look carefully that the letters of allah in arabic is similar to that of OM. All of us we know that every thing came from Om and will go into Om. Om is the only god which does not has forms and also we don't have idols of Om. So this idea Mohammed has adopted to create a new religion. Also, during their pilgrimage to Mecca. They wear white cloth, shave off their head and practice veg their ideas are similar to Swetambar sect of Jainism. Also, earlier Jainism have stopped idol worshiping. Whereas the Indo-Greek Kings have adopted Buddhism and both Buddhism and Jainism were present in that area in and around Syria.

Also, Arabia was occupied by traders from Indian and all traders were Jains. Even Phoenicians and Philistines were people of Sea, they were traders. Also, It was said that Mohammed received his first preaching in Hera cave and it is well know fact that some hindu sadhus, rishis and digambara sect of Jains live in Cave hence he might have got his preaching by Hindu sadhus and Jains. Also, in his childhood he used to trade with his Uncle. He had even gone to Syria and in syria buddhism was famous. Hence instead of making him rishi, sant, sadhu or Mahammat acharya his follower made him prophet.

Even the christanity have adopted saint isophat whose story is similar to Gautam Buddha and also the teacher of saint Isophat as saint Barlaam. Barlaam sounds similar to Vardham. Also, buddhist believe that Mahavir Vardhman had once preached Gautam Buddha hence the christanity had copied Gautam Buddha and Mahavir Vardham into Christanity.

[ombakth 0]

Even Jews have adopted ancient Indian dharma. They have learnt from Buddhism. Just like how Buddha used to not talk anything about God hence even they used that practice of not calling their name of God otherwise due to different pronunciation or mispronunciation of word in different languages will ultimately result in creation two different words for the same God and in turn if there is further bifurcation of the people of those region it will lead into creation of new religions. Just like Color and Colour but in this case the meaning was same but still they are two different words one used in UK English another used in US English.

Not only Indian but also all religion in the world should give proper respect to Om (the formless god who does not has his idol).

Islam was formed from Hindu Sadhus or Jainism. Jews and Christanity was formed from Buddhism. Buddhism and Jainism was formed from ancient Indian Dharma.

[veluvolu_anand 0]

 

In Sanatana Dharma, Vedas form the basic principles. The four vedas are the most authentic source of information about Sanatana Dharma. The great upanishads are parts of the Vedas. If we consider this both Shiva and Vishnu are given inferior status in the Vedas. Having said that, however, the song in praise of Sri Rudra Purusha-Shiva is the foremost in all the four Vedas. This is said in Suta Samhitha which praises that Rudra-Shiva form the basis of all other gods and infact if one praises Lord shiva-Rudra all other gods are praised. That means without making any COMPARISON the supremacy of Lord Shiva is established in Yajur Veda itself. Shiva doesn't require Vishnu to prove his supremacy. He is Supreme by himself. Yajur Veda is considered to be the foremost of the 4 Vedas. In that the central portion of 700 mantras are occupied by the praise of Lord Shiva-Rudra (Satarudriyah).

 

In fact Lord Vishnu does not have such a prominent place in Yajur Veda which is said to be the prime Veda of the 4.

 

In Shaiva Puranas, Skanda Purana, Shivamaha Purana and the Linga Purana describe Lord shiva as the lord of the universe. Ironically in Vishnu Purana we find Sage Parasara as saying at the beinning of the Purana that all the three in the trinity are Important but only because of Lord Vishnu being the protector of the world he is prayed more and given importance.

 

Some vaishnavas donot accept parashurama as an Incarnation of lord Vishnu himself just because he was an ardent devotee of Lord Shiva. This shows that Vaishnavas have a very narrow and shallow approach to others who worship Shiva as the supreme. From time immemorial Shiva was (and continues so) insulted and humbled by Vaishnavas to show that Vishnu is independent. Shiva's Supremacy has Vedic sanction. His Viraat swaruupa is worshipped in Sri Rudram. Shaiva Puranas establish him as the supreme.

 

The Swetasvatara Upanishad hails Lord Shiva (Purusha) in his Universal form. There is a widespread opinion that The Bhagavad Gita is a latter addition to Mahabhartha, which could quite be true given the Vaishnavas' tradition of Shiva bashing. Unable to accept the growing prominence of Lord Shiva the Vaishnavas may well have created the Bhagavadgita and added it to the Mahabaratha. Interestingly the Mahabaratha contain hundreds of verses sung by Krishna in praise of Lord Shiva and his universal form, an example being the Shiva Sahasranama. Shiva except the four lines in the Vishnu Sahasranama has not sung anything, as big as the Shiva Sahasranama, in praise of Lord Vishnu.

 

Apart from all these the Bhagavat purana cannot be said fully to be the creation of Veda vyasa himself since he himself accepts that the Bhagavad Purana is the last Purana he wrote, whatever may be the story. Here again the Bhagavat Purana has many sections in praise of Lord Shiva by Krishna.

 

Lord Krishna also has the distinction of presenting the 1008 names of Lord Shiva, in which, the universal form is also included. These are inspite of the fact that the compiler of the Vedas and the Puranas was a Vaishnavite (Sage Vedavyasa). No one can question his wisdom. But Shiva doesnot have the advantage of having a Shaivaite doing that work. So many later works arose describing the true supremacy of Lord Shiva the prominent amongst these is the Shiva Rahasya Ithihaasa which is as long as the Mahabaratha and contains the Ribhu Gita (which is a renowned spiritual work).

 

It is a fact that till today Vaishnavas hate and insult Lord Shiva. But Shaivaites Understand that there is no meaning in insulting Lord Vishnu simply because of the fact that they donot want to waste thier energy in these petty things. Kurma Purana Insists that in this Kali Era only Lord Shivas name can release men from bondage. And so Shaivites practise that.

 

Only a person having less will feel Jealous about some other person who is having more!!! Isn't it true???

 

OM NAMAHSHIVAYA

suta samhita is in skanda purana not yajur veda.the writer vyas wrote in padma purana skanda purana is tamasic.the proofs that showed where siva is supreme are from tamasic puranas.bhagavadgita is there much before adisankara time .for ur assumption u think who added sankaracharya added.saivas argue at time of sankara there is no vaishnavism or saivism.then it is ur assumption.

[Guest Abhi]

 

Let us forget about whether scriptures say Vishnu is supreme or Siva is supreme. Let us discuss about day-to-day Vaishnavism and Shaivism.

 

1) The worship of vishnu is complete in itself - Krishna, though viswaroopa to arjuna and through his teachings in Gita established himself as the supreme. We need not go searching for the vedas, upanishads (or) we need not show how vishnu is superior to shiva, Brahma etc. Even in Vishnu purana, Vishnu is said to have created brahma and shiva - thats it - there are no fancy stories which show that brahma or Siva become fools in front of Vishnu.

 

Vaishnavites rarely use stories that shows superiority of vishnu over siva. If we want to use, there are lots. For example, in Valmiki Ramayan, there is a story of a fight between Vishnu and Siva where vishnu wins hands down. In bhagavatam there is a mention of war between krishna and siva where Krishna wins. The water that flows from the feet of vishnu (ganga) is adorned on the head of siva and

is considered as his wife. There are many more such stories. None of these stories are ever used to show the greatness of Vishnu. We dont need such stories to show the greatness of vishnu because Bhagavad Gita, along with the teachings and heroic deeds of Rama and Krishna are sufficient for us. Even though Valmiki ramayan clearly mentions that Hanuman is an ansha or avatar of siva, we never use it much.

 

On the other hand Shaivism is dependent upon vishnu in a large manner. To show that Shiva is supreme, one has to show that vishnu is inferior. In a reputed telugu magazine swathi, recently on the Shivratri day, the story of how vishnu got his sudershan from Shiva was published. Recently, on the occasion holi recently, the story of how vishnu in the form pig dug into the bottom but could not find the end of Shiva was published. I find several reputed mainstream magazines doing the same. On the occasion of janmashtami do you ever find the mention of krishna's was victory over Shiva in any magazine ??

On the occasion of Vaikunta Ekadasi, do you ever find the story of Vishnu's victory over Shiva mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan in any magazine ??. Valmiki Ramayan does not make even a single mention of Ram praying to Shiva - infact there is a mention of Ram praying to Vishnu because Ikshwaku dynasty's kula daivam is Vishnu (it is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan). The story of Ram worshipping Shiva is a latter day's concoction of Shaivites. There are hundreds of temples all over India which claim to have Shiva lingas worshipped by Ram. And even though Ramayan explicitly states that Hanuman is an ansha of iswara, we rarely ever make use of this fact to prove the supremacy of Vishnu.

 

My question to Shaivites is - Can Saivites understand siva tatva without showing Vishnu as Inferior. Why is saivism so much dependent on Vaishnavism if siva is so supreme ??

 

 

2) Vishnu puranas describe Vishnu as supreme. Do Siva puranas do so. The answer surprisingly is - no.

 

Do you know how Siva got the title maheswara or mahadeva ?? For destroying tripurasuras, the three flying puras should be destroyed with one single arrow.

Siva finds that his energy is not sufficient to destroy the three puras with one arrow - his energy is just half the required. Therefore all the three crore devatas decide to give their energy to Siva. After getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva then destroys the three puras. On account of getting the energy of all the other devas, Siva is called mahadeva or maha iswara.

 

The same with Durga - She gets her energy because all the other devas give their strength to her. Vishnu gives her one discuss, Siva gives her one trident, Indra gives her vajra and so on. Durga becomes Shakti because all the other Devas give their shakti to her.

 

The same with Ganesha. He gets his obstacle removing capability of by virtue of a boon from Siva.

 

For the three Dieties Siva, Durga and Ganesh - they get their energies from others - their energy is not innate in them. It is because all others decide to give their

energies to them that they become supreme. They have not been great since time.

 

Here again is the dependence of Saivism on other devas.

 

Can Saivites answer these questions ??

This is something typical of ISKON and Hare Krishna people, who try to prove Krishna's supremacy. By the way, neither am I a Shivaite nor a Vaishnavite, but have read the puranas. Yes, in Vishnu purana it says Vishnu created Brahma and Shiva and Shiva purana says he created Brahma and Vishnu. So, it is not right on our part to decide as to who is superior. In rigveda it is said "Ekam sat, vipraha bahudha vadanti". It is just different beliefs. Also, Vaishnavites ( especially ISKON and HARE KRISHNA) which teaches people that all other gods except for Krishna, Vishnu and all his incarnations are demigods. If so, I would want them to prove it using some veda or upanishad (which are our principle religious texts). However, in every book of their's they try to prove that all other gods are demigods. Hence, I wouldnt like their books as references for this. Also, Bhagwathi puran says that Durga is synonymous to SHAKTI, which means she is the power of Universe. Why would someone have to give her energy. Hence, since it is written different everywhere, it is better that everyone follows what they want rather than arguing on this. I am sure neither Shiva nor Vishnu like this. It is also mentioned in some sources that Shiva meditates thinking about Vishnu and Vishnu meditates thinking about Shiva. When, both of them have no problem, who are we to decide the better person...

 

[Guest shashank g]

niither vishnu nor shiva is bothered about this they are cool... so d hell r v fighting like this and becoming sinners?????????