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Who is Greater? Shiva or Vishnu?

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Although the Upanishads say that there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu, I want to know what you think. Is Shiva greater than Vishnu or vice versa?

 

 

 

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-------Although the Upanishads say that there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu,------

 

what upanishads say is final.That is the end word.So whats there to debate on this?

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Excuse me but if theres not difference whats the point in having two Personalities?

 

Shiva and Vishnu are so different in charactaristics. The Oneness advocates will say they are the same, where as devotees [suddha-Vaishnavas'] will say Shiva is greatest Hari-Bhakta. The Materislists [Mayavadis] will say Shiva is the same as Vishnu, and therefore want to become God. Generally speaking mosly people worship Shiva for material gain of some sorts [Money, fame, women]. The Sankracharya sects worship Shiva, Ganesha, even Vishnu. But thier goal is of-cource different than Suddha-Vaishnavas. Krishna devotees only desire to love Krishna in complete oneness. This oneness is different to the above mentioned. In this there is oneness and difference, where rasa [mellows of Bhakti] are produced. All this can be had by assocating with real Krishna devotees. Achintya Bheda Bheda is propagated by Lord Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who was Krishna Himself. The pure love can be had in this age only by His grace. Thankyou.! Om Tat Sat

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I agree Vishnu is great because Shiva is a bhakta of Hari, who is same as Krishna. Because of Krishna Lila, worshipers of Shiva think Shiva is same as Hari.

 

Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare Hare

Hare Krishn Hare Krishn Krishn Krishn Hare Hare.

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This is not right. Puranas prove that Vishnu is a worshipper of Shiva.

 

Vishnu worshipped Shiva with 1000 lotuses and Shiva made one of them disappear. Vishnu offered his lotus eye and Shiva was pleased and gave him Sudarshan Chakram.

 

Vishnu could not find the beginning of Shiva. At least he did not lie about it.

 

Vishnu ran to Shiva for help when the poison was created during churning of the oceans.

 

There are many other examples which prove that Shiva is the Supreme God.

 

 

 

 

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Jai Ganesh

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca

vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu

sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

 

Of Rudra I am Shankra

Lord Krishna declares in the Gita

 

. Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Yo hariH sa ZivaH sakSad yaH zivaH sa svayamM hariH

Ye tayor bhedamAti stahan narakAya bhave nnaraH

Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

Any human being mistake both the lord to be different, he/she surely go to hell

 

Brahma vaivarta puran-prakriti khanda II.56.61

Sleeping or awake, shiva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Krishna.

As I Krishna, so is Shambhu, ther is no difference between Madhava and Isa.

 

 

SB 8.7.22: O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

SB 8.7.23: O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma& Vishnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

SB 8.7.24: You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

 

 

SB 8.7.31: O Lord Girsa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

 

Krishna -16000 Wives

 

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

 

 

Let us please not demean Sanatana Dharma. He is one without a second, wise know him by different names

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

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this topic has been going for ages, but remember hinduism is not polytheistic. krishna (supreme personality of Godhead) said He functions in the modes of creation, maintenance and then destruction. He has different forms in which to represent his universal works. dont be confused, brahma, vishnu, shiva are all part and parcel of the one Lord, but represented differently in a metaphorical manner to show the various actions that God undertakes. i know that ISKCON followers are heavily into the view that vishnu is superior to shiva, and that krishna Himself is the Supreme Lord.

whatever your distinction may be, if you busy yourself thinking of who is greater, you are missing the point of worship completely. to have an inclination of one God over another defeats the purpose of God worship. instead understand soley, the pure form of hinduism unaffected by the myths and legends that come through the puranas. they are all one, the supreme brahman. if you have to give Him a name, call him Shiva, but realise shiva has manifested before as the creator, and then as the maintainer. or if you want, call him Vishnu, but realise before vishnu manifested to create, and after this he will manifest to destruct and recreate again. or if you are confused by it, call him Krishna, who is the avataar representing the one true personality of Godhead and His purpose.

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Siva is Tamas. Vishnu is Sat. How are they same? Vishnu is superior. When Siva needs help, he runs to Hari Govinda for help crying. Like big daddy, Hari has to comfort him. Plus Siva is the great Vaishnava. By Hari's grace, Siva gets the strength to destroy and Brama gets strength to create. Also, with Hari's grace and to make Him happy, Siva could drink the poison. Read Tulasidasji's Ramcharitmanas. You will all understand.

 

 

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I never thought it was a case of one being better than the other, since they are both unique and different aspects of God.

Vishnu is the Preserver - he's there to protect and uphold the Universe.

Shiva is the Destroyer - he's there to destroy, when that becomes necessary.

They are both simply two aspects of Creation --- and two principles of the Universe.

 

 

 

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" to have an inclination of one God over another defeats the purpose of God worship. instead understand soley, the pure form of hinduism unaffected by the myths and legends that come through the puranas. they are all one, the supreme brahman."

 

you are right that this can be a useless quarrel.. but your conciliation is the worst solution.. god is a full featured sat cit ananda individual, not only the impersonal brahman

 

better to discuss on wich personality is supreme than solve the problem with your atheism and the blasphemy against puranas

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when Vishnu approaches Shiva.

 

The fact is Vishnu is great for vaishnavites.

Whereas Shiva is great for non vaishnavites.

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******* Shiva is always engaged in devotion as a servant of Sri Rama ***********

 

It is Maruts, sons of Siva who are engaged in service of Indra and Visnu.

 

Vedas are very clear. Rudras mind is Indra and Rudras movement is Visnu.

 

 

YV v. 5. 7. The fire is Rudra, his are three missiles, one that comes straight on, one that strikes transversely, and one that follows up.

 

YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

 

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu.

 

 

 

See that Visnu's overlord is Indra, the divine mind.

 

Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.

 

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma.

c Thou art the portion of them that gaze on men, the overlordship of Dhatr, the birthplace saved, the seventeen fold Stoma.

d Thou art the portion of Mitra, the overlordship of Varuna, the rain from the sky, the winds saved, the twenty-one fold Stoma.

e Thou art the portion of Aditi, the overlordship of Pusan, force saved, the twenty-sevenfold Stoma.

f Thou art the portion of the Vasus [1], the overlordship of the Rudras, the quadruped saved, the twenty-fourfold Stoma.

g Thou art the portion of the Adityas, the overlordship of the Maruts, offspring saved, the twenty-fivefold Stoma.

h Thou art the portion of the god Savitr, the overlordship of Brhaspati, all the quarters saved, the fourfold Stoma.

i Thou art the portion of the Yavas, the overlordship of the Ayavas, offspring saved, the forty-fourfold Stoma.

k Thou art the portion of the Rbhus, the overlordship, of the All-gods, being calmed and saved, the thirty-threefold Stoma.

 

 

And see that gods, including Visnu merit and claim praise on whose account.

 

 

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

Also see who is the self dependent god in RV

 

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

 

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

 

See below as to who is the father of Indra and Visnu

 

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

 

4 Flow for prosperity and constant Vigour, flow on for happiness and high perfection.

This is the wish of these friends assembled: this is my wish, O Soma Pavamana.

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

 

 

 

That should be sufficient

 

 

 

 

 

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"" to have an inclination of one God over another defeats the purpose of God worship. instead understand soley, the pure form of hinduism unaffected by the myths and legends that come through the puranas. they are all one, the supreme brahman."

 

you are right that this can be a useless quarrel.. but your conciliation is the worst solution.. god is a full featured sat cit ananda individual, not only the impersonal brahman

 

better to discuss on wich personality is supreme than solve the problem with your atheism and the blasphemy against puranas"

 

please explain what is a 'sat cit ananda individual'? how can i respond when you are using jargon. what is blasphemy to you is simply a different method of interpretation for me. for example i understand that the stories in the puranas (not the puranas themselves as a basis of holy scripture) are not meant to be taken literally. they are formed around myths. this is simply the process of historical india developing through its religous phases. like the aboriginals have stories of creation, so did the ancient aryans. the discepancy even in the importance of certain gods over others has changed drastically also. whereas indra and surya where important back then, they are demigods now. and shiva, once considered the wild god of nature is now made out to be a destroyer. dont look at the names, dont look at the stories. simply understand each figurehead is a representation of different acts of god. do you really believe one god would run to another 'superior' god to save him from a demon who he has just granted a boon? if you cannot seperate the myths from the true essence of the scripture, it is you who is the blasphemer.

 

if you have no foundation in the most important scripture, the gita, you're totally lost. read it, and there it will tell you the modes of creation, preservation, destruction, are but manifestations of the one Lord. without bias as to which is greater (not including the demigods). it is true different gods represent different things, but they are all one.

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please explain what is a 'sat cit ananda individual'?

••sat cit ananda individual means that god is surely omnipervadent, brahman, but he's also an eternal. fully conscious, completely blissful person with the possibility to relationate with other persons like us who are his parts and parcels

 

what is blasphemy to you is simply a different method of interpretation for me. for example i understand that the stories in the puranas are not meant to be taken literally. they are formed around myths

•••that's blasphemy because you are deciding wich part of vedic scripture suits your belief, and in this way you are selecting what seems to you true and rejecting what seems to you a myth.. That's not to be done, we are little pupils, we have to study and practice under the guidance of a pure spiritual master..a "tattva darshinah", one who sees the truth, god, as bhagavad gita says... when we too will become "tattva darshinah" we will see if all is true.

 

if you have no foundation in the most important scripture, the gita

••gita is a completely pure and true scripture, nothing is allegoric or mythologic.. Gita is personalist, krsna, the supreme personality of godhead is a fully featured divine individual who says clearly "leave all other dharmas and surrender to me, have no fear, i will protect you from the consequences of your actions"

 

no allegory, no myth, no representation of nirguna brahman but krsna who says "surrender to me..." simple and clear.. no interpretation is required, to read and submit is enough

 

 

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•••that's blasphemy because you are deciding wich part of vedic scripture suits your belief, and in this way you are selecting what seems to you true and rejecting what seems to you a myth.. That's not to be done, we are little pupils, we have to study and practice under the guidance of a pure spiritual master..a "tattva darshinah", one who sees the truth, god, as bhagavad gita says... when we too will become "tattva darshinah" we will see if all is true.

 

ah but i havent accepted or rejected anything in the puranas. some interpretations work better then others. the puranas were created specifically as stories for the lesser men to be able to understand concepts in hinduism easier. now if you take everything in the puranas as truth without understanding the basis behind it, you will be stuck. why is it that vishnu purana says vishnua created brahma and then shiva, whereas the shiva purana says shiva was there to begin with as an endless linga? there are contradictions in the puranas also. some stories suit the shiva followers, some stories suit the vishnu followers. but make no mistake that they are stories, and metaphorical descriptions, if anything else, of the acts of God. how else do you explain to men of lesser spiritual capacity? you dont give him a lecture on the vedas, you show him little by little. that was the purpose of the puranas.

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the puranas were created specifically as stories for the lesser men to be able to understand concepts in hinduism easier

••that's your opinion. It is clear that in this way you simply are rejecting vedic culture, because now you decide that puranas are myths and that you know the inner meaning of them, the next time you will decide that upanishads have other defects, the same thing for vedas, next with mahabharata and so on.

A religion is to be followed.. if one do not want to follow he's free to do it, but he cannot claim to be religious

 

now if you take everything in the puranas as truth without understanding the basis behind it, you will be stuck.

••puranas are transcendental, they are eternally emanated by god. There's no reason to discriminate them from other scriptures that you decide to take literally. Demonstrate that puranas are myths but for example upanishad are truth if you can..

 

why do not be honest? you are not a follower of sanatana dharma.. where's the need to cheat us?

 

 

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i think we're on entirely different wavelengths. i mean the puranas are open to interpretation, many acts can be taken as metaphorical (not necessarily as half-truths or lies). i never said i understand the inner meaning of them, i said there is a meaning BEHIND the literal statements. for example, the act of varaha the boar incarnation lifting the earth may as well be a symbolic representation of god performing a mystical act. or when vyas wrote the maharabata by divine insight, did he write it to literally outline the historical battle between kauravas and pandavas as he saw them, or was it to simply make a form of poetry for the following generations to adhere to its religous message?

who is god to you? is he a father? a friend? a spirit? an entity? a demigod like ganesh or agni? what is god to you can be different to what god is for others.

my viewpoint on puranas comes from books ive read, and if i remember correctly, the works of vivekanda. if you have a bone to pick with accusations of cheating and blasphemy, then do so against his name.

as for being a follower of sanatana dharma, when you become a perfect follower yourself, perhaps i will take what you say into consideration. only remember that following religion requires a modicum of intellect and comprehension. if god didnt want us to question, he wouldnt have given us the capability to do so...

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i mean the puranas are open to interpretation

--i simply do not understand on wich basis you can say that some vedic texts are to be considered open to interpretation only because there are stories that we do not find logic with our human consciousness. It is religion, transcendence.. it is natural that what happens in this environment can be different from what we see in the material world.

it is not so intelligent to desperately try to capture all the essence and meaning of trascendental stories with the parameters of our poor mind.

For this reason i said that this is not be a sanatana dharmi.. religion means esentially to follow, to have faith that such practice will bring us in a higher state of consciousnss where some things that we now understand as illogic, we will see manifesta and clear.

If we consider our state of consciousness perfect and able to understand the essence of spirituality, even against what spiritual science says, what's the use of having to do with religion who has as main purpose the one to make our consciousness higher and our discrimination sharper?

 

and if i remember correctly, the works of vivekanda. if you have a bone to pick with accusations of cheating and blasphemy, then do so against his name.

--no problems... if vivekananda says that vedic stories are allegoric he's a big rascal cheater using vedas to backup his image of hindu guru, but simultaneously rejecting them. The result is that you consider as an hindu authority one who has tried to delegitimate hindu religion saying that such science is unreal and allegoric

 

as for being a follower of sanatana dharma, when you become a perfect follower yourself, perhaps i will take what you say into consideration.

--for these simple matter is not required a pandita or an illuminated person... religion means to expand our consciousness, if we think to be able, as neophites, to find an "inner" meaning beyond transcendental shastras we are going against the simple principle of gradual training and understanding

 

no student of medicine, engineering, literature, electronics in the first day of school jumps up and puts in discussion all the science he's now started to learn... but in religion all is considered natural, i have a human consciousness, but i think to have the right to judge things that require a transcendental consciousness to be understood

 

only remember that following religion requires a modicum of intellect and comprehension.

--no... it is required huge intelligence and discrimination.... so let us grow in intellect and comprehension to judge things that with our present prerogatives, skills, capacities are incomprensible

 

for this reason spirituality is a school with real pure masters who really see god (=tattva darshinah.. as bhagavad gita states) and not simply a reading that we can do by ourselves

 

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if you are a siva devotee, he is greater.

when you meet him, he will tell who is greater.

 

if you are a vishnu devotee, he is greater.

when you meet him, he will tell who is greater.

 

if you are none, then no need to question, or answer.

 

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There is no need to speculate.

 

Vedas clearly state that Rudra has become all and all is Aditi-Adityas.

 

What is variegated all to eyes (Visnu) is un-variegated Pragnya in shushupti and beyond.

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Hare Krishna,

 

Dear Atanu,

 

I think only you can post. It is also known very well that you do not understand sanskrit at all.

 

 

t is Maruts, sons of Siva who are engaged in service of Indra and Visnu.

 

 

It is not only Maruts, but every devata(Including Siva and higher devetas like BrahmA etc.) is engaged in the service of Bhagavan Narayana.

 

 

Vedas are very clear. Rudras mind is Indra and Rudras movement is Visnu.

 

 

May be you construct imaginary meanings from Vedas.

 

 

YV v. 5. 7. The fire is Rudra, his are three missiles, one that comes straight on, one that strikes transversely, and one that follows up.

 

YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

 

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu.

 

 

How are YV 5.5 and YV i.8 related. This must be shivite logical analysis, which amounts to nothing but irrationality.

 

YV i.8 are mantras for Rajasuya yaga. The performer of this yaga is praised and the performer also worshipps to the GODS that he might become as glorious as the STEP of VISNU, Stride of VISNU etc. There is no relation to Rudra Deva here, except that HE is worshipped as in any other yaga.

 

 

See that Visnu's overlord is Indra, the divine mind.

 

Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.

 

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma.

 

 

Again this is a yaga. Defitely there is no relation to gradation here.

 

 

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

The coorect translation is given below. Note the eleventh verse.

 

10.092.09 Address praise today with reverence to Rudra the powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven.

 

10.092.11 They the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us).

 

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"i simply do not understand on wich basis you can say that some vedic texts are to be considered open to interpretation only because there are stories that we do not find logic with our human consciousness. It is religion, transcendence.. it is natural that what happens in this environment can be different from what we see in the material world.

it is not so intelligent to desperately try to capture all the essence and meaning of trascendental stories with the parameters of our poor mind."

 

///////////////////////////////////////

 

i never stated everything can be explained. as with my description of the varaha incarnation in my post above, if you read and tried to understand what i was saying instead of nitpicking for the sake of it, you wouldnt have missed that it could be representative of a godly act or cosomological wonder at work. that there is transcendental background to it, i have no arguemnt against that. that our minds are limited to a certain extent, i have no doubt about that either. but our inpretation of the situation says a boar lifted the earth, whereas there could be any sort of spiritual work at play. now if the author were to try and describe what work exactly, it might take a thousand pages. its easier and convenient to descirbe it as such. this is why i said its not to be taken literally, the reading of the text requires intelligence and comprehension. the above is just an example, so dont get upset about it.

 

//////////////////////////////////////////////

 

"For this reason i said that this is not be a sanatana dharmi.. religion means esentially to follow, to have faith that such practice will bring us in a higher state of consciousnss where some things that we now understand as illogic, we will see manifesta and clear.

If we consider our state of consciousness perfect and able to understand the essence of spirituality, even against what spiritual science says, what's the use of having to do with religion who has as main purpose the one to make our consciousness higher and our discrimination sharper?"

 

//////////////////////////////////

 

agreed, no argument

 

/////////////////////////////////////

 

"no problems... if vivekananda says that vedic stories are allegoric he's a big rascal cheater using vedas to backup his image of hindu guru, but simultaneously rejecting them. The result is that you consider as an hindu authority one who has tried to delegitimate hindu religion saying that such science is unreal and allegoric"

 

////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

i would suggest you read the text before you judge, otherwise its a case of the blind leading the blind.

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

"for these simple matter is not required a pandita or an illuminated person... religion means to expand our consciousness, if we think to be able, as neophites, to find an "inner" meaning beyond transcendental shastras we are going against the simple principle of gradual training and understanding

 

no student of medicine, engineering, literature, electronics in the first day of school jumps up and puts in discussion all the science he's now started to learn... but in religion all is considered natural, i have a human consciousness, but i think to have the right to judge things that require a transcendental consciousness to be understood"

 

//////////////////////////////////////////

 

my comment was in reference to the way you were behaving with your language. blashpemer and cheater are strong words to use. i could equally say you are being overly righteous, full of pride, egotistical, contentious and arrogant, not to mention judgemental. so if you are so wonderful yourself to follow sanatana dharma to its core and get rid of those qualities in you, then maybe i would listen to what you have to say. up to then, accusing others is hypocritical.

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

"no... it is required huge intelligence and discrimination.... so let us grow in intellect and comprehension to judge things that with our present prerogatives, skills, capacities are incomprensible"

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////

 

i think you catch my meaning but you want to argue nonetheless. you are right in saying discrimination is required. however comprehension is required in order to understand gods path. sometimes you can discriminate, but discrimination requires understanding of the variables. how can i discriminate if i dont know what im discriminating against?

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////

 

"for this reason spirituality is a school with real pure masters who really see god (=tattva darshinah.. as bhagavad gita states) and not simply a reading that we can do by ourselves"

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////

 

no argument there either. we're not understanding one another very well, this will be an argument with no end.

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