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Pankaja_Dasa

Truth Hurts

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You hk's have your own forums to post your views on. Do you expect them to be accepted here? What is your business here?

 

 

 

Oh so now we see. Your actually against the pure Bhakti. Many years Hindus thought they had monopoly on Vedas. Vaishnava's smashed this. Your going backwards. Get a grip.

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<< Hindu is bodily concept of life. >>

 

no.

 

hindu is just a new name for arya or sanatana dharmi or varnasrami. i have said it a few hundred times here.

because the name is new, it cannot be found in the vedic literature. your name govindram probably is new and cannot be found on your birth certificate.

 

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hindu is just a new name for arya or sanatana dharmi or varnasrami. i have said it a few hundred times here. because the name is new, it cannot be found in the vedic literature.

 

 

And you gave us this name Dear Madhava.? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Your trying to contest the fact because Hindu is a new name it somehow has something to do with Sanatana Dharma. Our eternal goal is to surrender to Krishna, sarva dharman.

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Hinduism is not racist.

You are making extreme comments. Hindus did not wage war against anybody, and the fact is we are at the receiving end. If you say hinduism is racist, what do you call apartheid? Who practices them? Get real man. Just because they did not allow you into a temple does not mean you can brand hindus like that. And what do you think is happening in middle east? That is pure racism. Are they hindus? So first understand what you are talking about before making any comments.

 

Hinduism is spiritual...

and Hinduism is the name given to Sanatan dharma. I donno where you got these ideas from.

 

OK... In Puri, do they follow Hinduism or Sanathan Dharma?

 

Most of the westerners are meat eaters ( dont say no... I will think you want to really argue for arguemen't sake).

 

 

 

 

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In reply to:

---

besides, when krishna said "sarva dharman" in the quotd verse, he meant the dharmas of all four varnas, not religions like islam, xianity, etc.

-----------

 

<< He meant are you sure? >>

 

very.

read the chapter and see the verse in context of what krishna is talking about. of coure it also means one needs to give up non-vedic religions also.

 

hindu dharm is like pure water.

any other water you can make, will not be pure.

when one says give up all waters, then it means just use pure water. it does not mean give up pure water also.

surrendering to krishna/gita means to become a hindu.

surrendering to koran means to become muslim.

very simple to understand.

 

Hk's have surrendered to krishna.

so they are hindus as most hindus understand it.

it does not matter if HKs disagree.

krishna culture was not kept alive for thousands of years by the hippies but by the hindus.

 

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Hk's have surrendered to krishna.

 

 

On Hk's:

so they are hindus as most hindus understand it.

it does not matter if HKs disagree.

krishna culture was not kept alive for thousands of years by the hippies but by the hindus.

 

 

Krsna Culture has been kept alive by Vaishnava's. Your arrogance to say not kept alive by hippies is astonishing, these so-called hippies are now Vaishnava's. I wonder what they are doing now? The same? I think most Hindus feel embarassed to find that these Illiterate hippies are 'acting' like Vaishnava's. But They Surrender. They didn't surrender to Hinduisum.

 

They surrendered to Krishna. Sarva Dharman.

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Hinduism is not racist

••not necessarily... i have said that it is a bodily concept

 

Hinduism is spiritual...

••if it is spiritual why it is connected with a nation and a race?

 

Most of the westerners are meat eaters

••i am not speaking of "most westerners", i am speaking of westerners who follow sanatana dharma

 

read better the message

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"krishna culture was not kept alive for thousands of years by the hippies but by the hindus."

 

why you introduce the term "hippies"?

 

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<center>

Chaitanya Saraswati Mission

{Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya}

<font color="blue">Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja</font>

Lord Krishna: Totally abandoning all kinds of religion, surrender exclusively unto Me. I will liberate you from all kinds of sins, so do not despair.

 

ISKCON

{Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya}

<font color="blue">A.C Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada</font>

Lord Krishna: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear. http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/18/1/en66

 

Krishna Chaitanya Mission

{Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya}

<font color="blue">Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja</font>

Lord Krishna: Abandon all religious practices and surrender completely unto Me alone. Don't fear, I shall deliver you from all sins.

</center>

 

 

 

 

<font color="red">Commentry of Sri Ramanuja</font>

 

 

 

18.66 'Relinquishing all Dharmas means the complete relinquishment of the sense of agency, possessiveness, fruits etc., in the practising of Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogas in the way instructed, and the realising of Me as the agent, object of worship, the means and the end. It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of all Dharmas.

 

 

 

It is firmly established in the beginning of this chapter commencing from, 'Listen regarding My decision, O Arjuna, about bandonment; for abandonment is declared to be of three kinds' (18.4), and 'Renouncing attachments and also the fruit, such abandonment is regarded as Sattvika ... for it is impossible for one who bears the body to abandon acts entirely. But he who gives up the fruits of works, is called the abandoner' (18.9-11). If you practise such abandonment of the sense of agency and fruits, I will release you from all 'sins' --- i.e., I will release you from all evil incompatible with the attainment of Myself, consisting of innumerable acts of the nature of doing what ought not to be done and not doing what ought to be done. These piled up from beginningless times from the obstruction in the way. Grieve not, you should not despair; for I shall release you from all these obstructions. Another (alternative) explanation is this: Bhakti Yoga is possible only for those people to whom the Lord is exceedingly dear and who are free from all evils. Those evils are so huge in their case that the expiatory rites which

could wash them off, could not be performed in the limited time of one's life span. Ajuna therefore thought that he was unfit for commencing Bhakti Yoga.

 

 

 

To remove the grief of Arjuna the Lord said: 'Completely relinquishing all Dharmas, seek Me alone for refuge.' Expiatory rites can be taken here as what is meant by Dharma, Completely forsake these rites (Dharmas) appropriate for the removal of numerous and varied sins piled up from beginningless time and obstructing the starting of Bhakti Yoga.

 

 

 

The expiatory rites consist of practices like Krcchra, Candrayana,

Kusmanda, Vaisvanara, Vratapati, Pavitresti, Trvrit, Agnistoma etc., which are of manifold varieties, and which are difficult to perform on account of the brevity of life. So in order to succeed in commencing Bhakti Yoga, seek Me alone for refuge. I am supremely compassionate, the refuge of all without considering the differences of character among them, and am an ocean of tenderness for those dependent on Me.

 

 

 

I will release you from all evil, the nature of which has been explained as incompatible with the commencement of Bhakti Yoga. Grieve not. [both these interpretations of this famous verse are said to teach only Bhakti Yoga and not Prapatti. But the question will rise in one's mind --- why should it not be so taken?]

 

 

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"I dont understand why you bring people of different races into this arguement.

--because if hinduism is (sometimes) racist... it is not a spiritual concept but a bodily designation"

 

Do you see the word racist in this... I just copied and pasted.

 

Its not connected with any nation. If you think hinduism is for India you are mistaken. Hindus are treated like slaves in India withour any respect. And we indias are Secular :-))

If we associate hinduism with India and indianisation, do you think we dumb people will be allowing everybody ( including you) to call us names?

 

Well.... you may not eat meat.... how does the poor gate keeper know you don not eat meat... its not his problem.

 

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"Well.... you may not eat meat.... how does the poor gate keeper know you don not eat meat... its not his problem."

 

again another demonstration...

 

no real examination but racism.. if an indian ate meat ten minutes before he enters without problems.. because he's indian

 

so your concept of hinduism is material, racist

 

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Its just ignorance. What do you want the gate keeper to do? get a conduct certificate to prove that you are not a meat eater? Its upto you to convince him that you are not a meat eater.

 

But you avoided my question..

Do they follow Hinduism or Sanathan Dharma in Puri?

 

And you did not consider that India is for "Secular" people and not hindus.

 

 

 

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Believe

 

 

9.1 Yo maamajamanaadim cha vetti loka maheshwaram;

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapaapaih pramuchyate.

 

9.2 Raajavidyaa raajaguhyam pavitramidamuttamam;

Pratyakshaavagamam dharmyam susukham kartumavyayam.

 

9.3 Ashraddhadhaanaah purushaa dharmasyaasya parantapa;

Apraapya maam nivartante mrityusamsaaravartmani.

 

10.3Yo maamajamanaadim cha vetti loka maheshwaram;

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapaapaih pramuchyate.

 

12.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

18.66 Sarvadharmaan parityajya maamekam sharanam vraja;

Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyaami maa shuchah.

 

 

Lord says: I shall declare the greatest the knowledge of Self-realisation. This is the kingly science, the kingly secret, the supreme purifier. Those who have no faith in this Dharma --- knowledge of the Self, return to the path of this world of death without attaining Me!

 

The Supreme Soul in this body is maheshwarah -- the Supreme Self. He who knows Me as unborn, as maheshwarah, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

Abandoning all forms of rites and duties, take refuge in Me alone. I shall free you from all sins. Therefore, do not grieve

 

Dear Govindramji if you win I will win and if you lose I will lose.

 

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The Supreme Soul in this body is maheshwarah -- the Supreme Self. He who knows Me as unborn, as maheshwarah, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

 

 

That verse is not even in the Gita. Krsna is Supreme. Isvara parama krsna sac-cid-ananda-vigraha

 

You are trying to kill Krsna with this verse.

 

This is what Egotists try to do when they have too much big ego. They actually want to be Krsna, this is the greatest deluding principle of this material world: ego

 

Also Krsna is the greatest deluding principle of the Entire Creation including the spiritual realm. As you can see Krishna says in 18.66 That only through surrender can you actually know the unborn and eternal Krsna. gaura-hari

 

Abandoning all forms of rites and duties, take refuge in Me alone. I shall free you from all sins. Therefore, do not grieve

 

 

 

You don't use this verse to to serve Krsna. All you see in the above is being free from sin. Very twisted. Gita is like your Guide not the other way around.

 

 

 

 

Dear Govindramji if you win I will win and if you lose I will lose.

 

 

 

If you met me you would be the one loosing. ! Serious though we are all individuals. All Diff. Ramanuja says this. In the end its down to each individual what he does in life. Krsna never forces you to serve Him. In the end Krsna says to Arjuna 'Sarva Dharman'.

 

Arjuna was already surrendered. But for our benefit this was being taught. Actually later Narada muni asks Arjuna about this. Arjuna gives secret that actually for him this is 3rd class knowledge. Saying that he was always Vaishnava. All this is for human-kind.

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Hinduism is not racist

 

<< ••not necessarily... i have said that it is a bodily concept >>

 

what is in gita is hinduism.

no hindu would deny it.

so then, are you saying gita is racist or it teachies bodily concept?

 

if hinduism were racist, why the hidnus consider HKs (white skin people of european race: the hippies originally in '60s) consider them hindus too?

 

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**********The Supreme Soul in this body is maheshwarah -- the Supreme Self. He who knows Me as unborn, as maheshwarah, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

 

--

 

That verse is not even in the Gita. Krsna is Supreme. Isvara parama krsna sac-cid-ananda-vigraha

 

**************

 

Have you read Gita?

 

 

10.3

 

Yo maamajamanaadim cha vetti loka maheshwaram;

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapaapaih pramuchyate.

 

He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as maheshwaram, he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

 

12.23

 

Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, maheshwarah and the Supreme Self.

 

 

Have you put blinds over your eyes? For your information there are two more verses that refer to Mahesvara -- the Self

 

 

 

*******You are trying to kill Krsna with this verse.*********

 

Can Krishna be killed?

 

Sicerely. your win will be my win. No problem if you don't accept it.

 

 

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Well you have cited SP’s translation and Ramanuja’s purport. Check up both and ponder a bit.

 

Bhagavad-Gita Chp 18.66

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

mokshayishyami ma sucah

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

 

Commentry of Sri Ramanuja

 

18.66 'Relinquishing all Dharmas means the complete relinquishment of the sense of agency, possessiveness, fruits etc., in the practising of Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogas in the way instructed, and the realising of Me as the agent, object of worship, the means and the end. It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of all Dharmas.

 

 

Are “relinquishing the sense of agency” and “abandoning all varieties of religion” the same?

 

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"That verse is not even in the Gita"

==============

 

 

It's funny to watch all of Mr. Govindaram's posts /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The hk's 'arguments' are quite entertaining.

 

Recently I saw a thread on a hk forum wherein a guest was amazed at the hk's responses. He said:

 

"It really amazes me the lengths which ISKCON people will go through to justify their sectarian prejudices and refuse to admit when they are wrong.

 

The fact that (Poster's name) has utterly failed to grasp the real point has been obfuscated by numerous tangential arguments offered by him with no real relevance to the main point."

 

Sound similiar to what's going on here /images/graemlins/wink.gif? Like him/her I was amazed at their behavior at first. Now its expected. He goes on to say:

 

"In fact, you really have no clue in general. This makes you very qualified to continue hoisting the ISKCON flag. They don't want thinkers, just mindless followers who will swallow their propaganda without even a hint of scrutiny. I am sure you will go far in that organization. Good luck!"

 

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Have you read Gita?

 

 

Theres no difference between Krishna Himself His Body His attributes.

 

You are trying to say 'Krishna within' is talking. YOU are the one reading wrong Gita.

 

 

 

Have you put blinds over your eyes? For your information there are two more verses that refer to Mahesvara -- the Self

 

 

Mahesvara means Supersoul who is within everybodies Heart. Krishna says in Gita all though He is spread throughout the creation still He is situated as one.

 

 

 

Bg.9.4

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

 

In other words consciousness is not the same. My consciousness cannot pervade yours. We are all individual:

 

 

 

Bg.2.2

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

 

Krishna says this in the start of Chp2. This is school knowledge. Chp 9 is talking about proper siddhanta as far as Krishna and we are concerned. We would think Krishna is everywhere so we must be God? to refute such claims Krishna says:

 

 

 

Bg.4.6

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

 

 

Bg.9.5

And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities, and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation.

 

 

This above verse is suffient knowledge to know that we are maintained by Krishna in His Orginal form of Vasudeva {Krsna}.

 

That verse Krishna says He create everything, pervades everything by His expansion as Paramatma, and also is present as if aloof from it all. And also Krishna says 'My self is the very source of creation' Krishna states He Himself is the creator. So to mundane scholars with no devotion this verse can be interpretated in many ways. Only devotees who are imbued with love for Krishna without any tinge of Impersonal or Mayavadi.. You may ask why? Read the verse again its for our benefit.

 

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Well you have cited SP's translation and Ramanuja's purport. Check up both and ponder a bit.

 

 

 

Commentry of Sri Ramanuja

 

18.66 'Relinquishing all Dharmas means the complete relinquishment of the sense of agency, possessiveness, fruits etc., in the practising of Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogas in the way instructed, and the realising of Me as the agent, object of worship, the means and the end. It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of all Dharmas.

 

 

 

Are "relinquishing the sense of agency" and "abandoning all varieties of religion" the same?

 

 

Agency of through the practice of Yoga. Bhakti-yoga. Devotional service as Ramanuja Maharaja says: "It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of all Dharmas."

 

So even after surrender Bhakti is prime. Bhakti-yoga is not religious prinicple it is the Sanatana Dharma of the Jiva.

 

 

 

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"In fact, you really have no clue in general. This makes you very qualified to continue hoisting the ISKCON flag. They don't want thinkers, just mindless followers who will swallow their propaganda without even a hint of scrutiny. I am sure you will go far in that organization. Good luck!"

 

 

Each time you post you reveal yourself as an atheist. Narrow-minded person. You haven't shown any sense of devotion to Krishna, this is due to reading Gita by mundane scholars with no actual understanding of Gita. Go back and see the nectar that is in Bhagavad-Gita As It Is. www.vedabase.net

 

May the Supreme Consiousness Sri Krishna be with you.

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Shri Ramanuja

 

*******"18.66 'Relinquishing all Dharmas means the complete relinquishment of the sense of agency, possessiveness, fruits etc., in the practising of Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogas in the way instructed, and the realising of Me as the agent, object of worship, the means and the end. It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of all Dharmas.*******************

 

 

Against above you say:

 

*******Agency of through the practice of Yoga. Bhakti-yoga. --------

So even after surrender Bhakti is prime. Bhakti-yoga is not religious prinicple it is the Sanatana Dharma of the Jiva.

 

Whereas Shri Ramanuja says:

 

'Relinquishing "all Dharmas" means the complete relinquishment of the sense of agency, possessiveness, fruits etc., in the practising of Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yogas in the way instructed, and the realising of Me as the agent, object of worship, the means and the end.

 

It means that relinquishment is not of all devotional duties but only of the sense of agency and the fruits. This is the Sastraic relinquishment of "all Dharmas".

 

 

We were discussing SP's translation which says: "Give up all religions"

 

 

Shri Ramanuja had long back explained that "relinquish sense of agency (simply the sense of "I do").

 

 

Now you say Bhakti yoga is the supreme.This verse is not about the method but about the final goal --- to suurender by reliquishing the sense of agency.

 

Wherefrom this supremacy of Bhakti yoga cropped in suddenly?

 

On pondering, you will realise that the sense "I am a Krishna bhakta" goes against the dictum "relinquish sense of agency"

 

I will win if you win.

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*******Oh so now we see. ----- Many years Hindus thought they had monopoly on Vedas. Vaishnava's smashed this. ----.**********

 

This is new knowledge. That Vaishnavas are not Hindus.This seems to explain many things.

 

Thank you.

 

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