Brahimins by birth??

[Guest guest]

To Priya Vashnava:

 

U said Brahmin is only by birth? Both by birth and by Character. If a Sudra is noble and learned by all means he has the right to be a brahmin. Varna is based more On Qualities than Birth.

[veluthukaran 0]

this was already discussed. varna determined by gunas and karma (read gita to learn to identify). varna not necessarily passed down by birth. caste is not varna. eckalavya was excellent archer, but it was not of his dharma. sri krsna said better to follow you svadharma poorly than to follow someone else's dharma

[Guest guest]

Varna comes by birth.You cannot change your varna.It has character in it too.A bhramin not knowing vedas will be considered as a low bhramin.He wont be considered as non-bhramin.

 

Saying gunas determine varna is okay to satisfy your ego.This is the result of communists and atheist movements in India which always question hinduism on its caste.Educated Hindus as a result think Hinduism did a mistake by allowing varnas and try to defend themselves by saying castes come from gunas.

 

I dont blame them.But I want every Hindu to proudly say "yes, I am proud from a culture that created varnas.I belong to varna X.I am proud of it.I think every varna as creation of god and think all as equal before lord".

 

But instead when you hear the name casteism, you hang your heads in shame and walk away.Muslims proudly defend Jihad and polygamy in their books.Learn from them.

 

You have any doubts on varna dharma,I will clear it.Varnashrama dharma is the crown jewel of hinduism..One who leaves his varna will be humuliated by all.It comes only by birth.See how acharya drona was humiliated by all for taking up war.

[Guest guest]

what made drona drop his weapons and sit in chariot?First he was shocked by news that his son was killed.Next Bheema started insultiung him as "Oh bhramin,you took up war which was against your kula dharma.You bathed in blood which was against your teachings.Shame on you"

 

This made him hate himself and he sat on the chariot in meditation.Then thristhathyumna killed him.

 

The worst insult to a hindu is debarring from his caste.Even in dalit villages,if a dalit was debarred from his caste by his caste elders, he will consider it as equal to death penalty.If he was ashamed to be a dalit,he should have been proud of it.

 

People in India before british were proud to belong to their varna.They put their caste name behind their name.Every caste called itself as number one.

 

For example

 

Nayakkar -nayagan(leader)

 

chettiar -shreya (best)

 

Rao,raju,rai -raja(king)

 

Mudaliar -first caste

 

devar -gods

 

gounder -kamindar(highest)

 

Menon -melon(highest one)

 

DALIT CASTES

 

Viswakarma -named after viswakarma

 

Devendra kula vellalar---belong to devendra's varna

 

arundhathiar -arundthathi(star..holy star)

 

So you can see every caste was proud about its caste and named itself as number one.Thats varna dharma for you.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Priya-Vaishnava it is so as you say.

 

You are being very brave, in todays climate verna is being look down upon, at best everyone saying it is based on guna karma, and sure it is.Krishna says four verna are my creation based on guna karma. i ask is birth an accident? no, it is based on guna karma of ones previous life.

i ask does lion give birth to rabbit?

yes it is importent to progress from what ever position one finds in, just as in an exam if one gets good mark but then gets puffed up and stops the further studies then there will be failure.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

brahmana means "who has realized brahman"

 

there's no kind of birth that can guarantee this state or achievement

[Guest guest]

Bhramana means one who has realized bhramman?We have a caste called "devar" in Tamilnadu.Are they gods?

 

Every caste named itself after gods and as number one.Thats all.Even though krishna created the first varnas by guna, as Ganesh Prasad said, he later on made people to be born in different varnas according to their deeds in earlier births.(I dont mean sinners were born as dalits and saints as bhramins)Their deeds decided their rebirths and varna

[maadhav 0]

<< Varna comes by birth. You cannot change your varna. >>

 

krishna does not say it in gita.

varna is determined only by guna and karma per gita.

 

now, do we listen to krishna in gita or any one else like you?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What is svardharma ?

if a person born in one case has to do his svardharma a brahmin will do only scholarly work. What about a sudra? If you say his svardharma is to serve others, the its injustice to them.

 

Drona a brahmin can become a kshatriya, but karna who was considered to be a sudra was never accepted as a kshatriya, remember the abuses that were hurled at him , by the pandavas at him in the arena.

 

If krishna says a sudra shld remain a sudra i dont know wat to say of him

[Guest guest]

If God created everything and everyone, then why is this varna only for Hindus as you say it is just by birth? What about the 'bigger picture'? What about a white or black person who isn't Hindu what varna are they? What about a Christian? Or a Buddhist? If the varna systems doesn't apply to them and just brown skinned Hindus, then this is a big joke! That's when the whole thing starts to look silly, if you say varna is just relevant to Hindus, yet other religions be can followed freely without this caste nonsense! No wonder people are converting! Why should we be proud of your view of varna? So what if muslims are proud of jihad and polygamy, they are not the kind of people to learn from! If something doesn't make sense then we as Hindus have the right to question it.

 

You're an advaitist right? Was your Shankaracharya a casteist? Did he say varna is only by birth? If so, then why did he bow to the untouchabe, praising him as a manifestation of Shiva?

[barney 0]

Vedas recognize different people have different skills and qualifications, but it is no by birth, it is by guna [qualification] and karma [work]. So if someone born of a sudra [worker] father becomes qualified [guna] and works as [karma] a brahmana he should be accepted as a brahmana... In the same way if the son of a brahmana doesn't have the qualifications of a brahmana or work as a brahmana then he is not a brahmana. There are so many examples of this in the Vedic scriptures.

 

Here is another clarification for yourgoodself.

Author: Pt. Inderjeet Heeralall

Source: Stabroek News, January 15, 2000

 

Dear Editor,

 

It is with disgust that I sometimes listen to some Pandits delivering their sermon or updesh. There is much to be desired about their use of the English language. Even their Hindi is poor and their knowledge of Sanskrit. The root reason for this is because the so-called Brahmins dominate the arena of Pandits and do not allow persons born in non-Brahmin homes to be an understudy or elevated to the position of Pandits.

 

A person is not born a Brahmin. A Brahmin is described as " a person of spiritual values". As a result, an individual born of Brahmin parentage will have to study and elevate themselves and live the life of a Brahmin. I know of many children who are born from Brahmin parentage and live the lives of rogues. Would you consider that person a Brahmin? Definitely not. A person is considered a Brahmin by karma or action. Today it is educational qualifications that hold the system of functional division in a society, in place. You have to be a law graduate to be a lawyer and a medical graduate to be a doctor. It does not help if your father was a lawyer, for you to become a lawyer. You need to hold the necessary qualification to enroll into that position. Similarly, a person will have to study the Hindu Scriptures, viz., the four Vedas, the Upnishads, the Geeta and other related and pertinent texts coupled with the upholding of spiritual values.

 

Any person who has studied the scriptures, preaches it and lives a noble and spiritual life is a true Brahmin, whether he was born from Brahmin parentage or not. The days for "anancy" stories are long gone. Followers of Hinduism are now more literate and educated than before and as a result demand healthier and educational discourses when listening to a Pandit. There is need for more educated and knowledgeable Pandits in our society. There are many brilliant persons who have great knowledge of the Hindu scriptures and who live a noble and spiritual life style. We should recognize those persons as Pandits and accept them as competent individuals to perform our religious ceremonies.

 

The rejection of persons born in non-Brahmin homes as Pandits is largely due to the practice of the caste system that was misinterpreted in India. The first question to address is why is there a caste system? Well, personally I have always been very ignorant of the topic of caste since I didn't really know it existed although my father was a practicing Pandit in Guyana. Hence, I am not too familiar with the justification in the Indian subcontinent. Through my philosophical exposes and my study of comparative religion, I have compared the caste system to Plato's ideal state. In The Republic, Plato argues that each person in society has a function and it is necessary for each person to fulfil his or her function for society to be just. Similarly, one can argue that the four castes were developed to give each individual a function in society. That is, with the evolution of society it was no longer plausible for the tiller of the soil to assume the functions of priests, warrior, merchant, and artisan all rolled in one. It was during my studies to become a qualified Pandit that I learnt of the Indian caste system.

 

The Indian caste system constitutes four castes:

 

1. Brahmins (priests), the highest castes, made up of those collections of Families considered the purest and most learned among the people of India.

2. Kshatriyas (warriors), the next highest castes, made up of those collections of families with primary responsibilities in the area of governance and maintenance of social order, especially the function of kingship;

3. Vaishya (belonging to the people), those collections of families involved in commerce, business and ordinary economic productivity; and

4. Shudra (servile), the lowest castes of servants of those collections of

families who serve the higher castes.

 

I do not see a problem with the sub-division but I do see a problem with the person who does not live the quality of life as that of a Brahmin to be considered a Brahmin. A person is therefore grouped into a caste by virtue of their occupation and not by birth. So if the son of a Brahmin occupies himself in conducting a business he will be considered a Vaishya (people that are involved in commerce). Likewise if the son of a Vaishya studied the scriptures and lives the life of a saint and preaches the religion he is a Brahmin.

 

Would this "Born-Brahmin" be a thing of the past? I have to be optimistic and say yes! I sincerely believe that the caste system will slowly, but surely, dwindle away. My optimism is grounded on history. With education and time false ways of thinking will change. So, in conclusion, I feel that with time the caste system in India and elsewhere will be diminished. Truth will prevail. The people will demand knowledgeable Pandits and Brahmins will be only synonymous with knowledge and proper lifestyle.

 

Yours faithfully,

Pandit Inderjeet Heeralall

 

 

 

 

[xxvvii 0]

Your varna is determined by your birth & your birth is determined by your past gunas.

 

You can say that a brahmin conducts unlike a brahmin or he's unqualified for his varna, but you can't say that he's not a brahmin. If today I declared varna by gunas, in a night there might come forth a crowed of qualified brahmins with unknown intention. Then what can I do with them? If all people are brahmins, that's to say, there's actually no brahmin.

[sefroth77 0]

To Priya-Vashnava:

 

When Krishna said in Kali-Yuga most people are Sudra. It also refers to Brahmin who are NOT following the pricinple. AS LONG AS YOU ARE WORKING FOR OTHERS AND DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINICIPLES than a Brahmin will be known as Sudra.

 

A sudra can be a Brahmin if he wish to. There is NO Such thing as higer Brahmin or Lower Brahmin.

 

Thanks

[maadhav 0]

<< Your varna is determined by your birth & your birth is determined by your past gunas. >>

 

if this were true, then

- why prahpad was born in an asura family?

- why ganhi's son became alomst a bum?

- why many advanced swamis came out of the hippies?

 

there is no way but to just accept krishna's message from gita in this matter.

 

[Guest guest]

- why prahpad was born in an asura family?

 

who is prahpad?

[Guest guest]

How did valmiki become a great sage fromt he family of dacoits .

 

Ravana was a half brahmana and half raksasha.

 

Even if you take Ravana's brother how come vibishan was different .

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is as I understand it. The gita defines three modes of living for a person - gyanayogi, karmayogi or bhaktiyogi. There are many interpretations for a gyanayogi is, but the one that appeals to me among the others is that a gyanayogi is actually a sanyasin whose only puspose of life is attainment of ultimate knowledge. So Krishna was a (the greatest of actually) gyanayogi, but Arjun was a karmayogi.

 

Rules of varna do not apply to a gyanayogi, as he exists outside the society that formulated the rules, and seeks knowledge beyond the comprehension of the society. Similarly, a bhakti yogi is also beyond varna differentiation as his only purpose in life is devotion and serving god. The only ones it makes sense for are karmayogis, who are driven by duty, with the underlying premise that a father teaches the son his profession. So the son's "duty" is to take up the father's place, which naturally extends as a varna distinction.

 

Today not too many people follow exactly what their fathers do. Further, the strict rules that define a varna class are lost. So I would say its more the character and growth that define a person's place and position - much as I would like it to be otherwise. As I see it, this stems from a confusion today between "what you are" in life and "what you do" for a profession, amd there is a mismatch - call it the western invasion if you will.

 

karthik

[maadhav 0]

i meant prahlad.

 

[maadhav 0]

<< This is as I understand it. The gita defines three modes of living for a person - gyanayogi, karmayogi or bhaktiyogi. >>

 

yes, you can choose to understaand any way you like,

and also can think that that only is the right message of gita, but that is not what krishna has said - per aacharyas.

 

which gita are you reading or have read lately?

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(krishna does not say it in gita.

varna is determined only by guna and karma per gita.)

 

So tell me maadhvji is birth just random with out guna and kaema?

 

<< Your varna is determined by your birth & your birth is determined by your past gunas. >>

Re

(if this were true, then

- why prahlad was born in an asura family?)

 

He is a great personality born to assist in lords lila.

still his kula is asura.

 

(- why ganhi's son became alomst a bum?)

 

Who is this?

 

Re

(- why many advanced swamis came out of the hippies?)

 

And many of the gurus have fallen down.

 

they are great at chanting but i can not learn morals from them.

 

Re

(there is no way but to just accept krishna's message from gita in this matter.)

 

i have no problem with this.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[maadhav 0]

yes ganeshprasadji,

it is not an accident.

it is a consequence of karma and desires of many a souls, parent and child souls included. however, each sould has god given freedom to choose what to do in currnt life.

 

Re

(krishna does not say it in gita.

varna is determined only by guna and karma per gita.)

 

<< So tell me maadhvji is birth just random without guna and karma? >>

 

no, as i said above.

 

<< Your varna is determined by your birth & your birth is determined by your past gunas. >>

Re

(if this were true, then

- why prahlad was born in an asura family?)

 

<< He is a great personality born to assist in lords lila.

still his kula is asura. >>

 

kula, family line, sure. but by guna and karma he is not an asura. he is a brahmana, because he preached, then he was a kshatriya because he ruled (if i am not mistaken).

 

(- why ganhi's son became alomst a bum?)

 

<< Who is this? >>

 

i meant m k gandhi. sorry for mis spelling in hurry.

 

Re

(- why many advanced swamis came out of the hippies?)

 

<< And many of the gurus have fallen down.

they are great at chanting but i can not learn morals from them. >>

 

i would not disagree, but i know that there sure are a few great goswmis too. that proves my point.

 

the need is to recognise one's gunas and karma and treat one acccordingly, not by birth. if you say, "prahlad is from an asura family," then no problem, but if you say or treat prahlad as an asura, then it is a problem. it would be sin.

 

a corrupt anti hindu politician who cares for himself only and misuses his power and authority is an asura. he does not deserve any treatment better than an asura deserves.

in contrast, a born shudra who has studied scriptures well, and practices and preaches a yoga is a brahmana by guna and karnma. to treat him like a shudra is sin. there is nothing wrong in saying he is from a shudra family. but to insult him is sin too.

 

samajyaa ke nahi.n?

praNam!

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(it is a consequence of karma and desires of many a souls, parent and child souls included. however, each sould has god given freedom to choose what to do in currnt life.)

 

Yes all the souls have right to choose, but there are laws also,

One's inferior natural work is better than superior unnatural work. One who does the work ordained by one's inherent nature (without selfish motives) incurs no sin (or Karmic reaction). (See also 3.35) (18.47)

One's natural work, even though defective, should not be abandoned; because all undertakings are enveloped by defects as fire is covered by smoke, O Arjuna. (18.48)

 

and I feel the birth of any soul in to any particular yoni is a natural selection based on past Karma, but in this age of kali the true nature is being clouded by intense desire to enjoy, so the Brahmins who feel they are being left out are going on wrong direction and the sudras who were denied previously are going on other direction, it is a real mess. What to expect it is kali yug where quarreling and hypocrisy prevails there is no order and there is worst to come, but there is one guna which is most desired if one want to make progress that is chanting of the names of the lord but un fortunately here also people fight as to what name? Ready to make an appradh of some names chanted as equal to the other.

 

 

Re

 

(kula, family line, sure. but by guna and karma he is not an asura. he is a brahmana, because he preached, then he was a kshatriya because he ruled (if i am not mistaken).

 

Here you are confusing one does not change the Verna like that, he is born in an asura Kula but a great mahagan this are exception just like vibhisan born a raksas but a devotee. One recognizes this.

There are no names for this situation or verna they are above all the designation.

 

 

 

(- why many advanced swamis came out of the hippies?)

 

<< And many of the gurus have fallen down.

they are great at chanting but i can not learn morals from them. >>

 

Re

(i would not disagree, but i know that there sure are a few great goswmis too. that proves my point.)

 

Thank you, I used to be in awe of this gurus and devotees, how great I thought, I use to fall down to ground and pay my obeisance’s then we find out how a lot of them fall down and I started thinking here I am chanted their names and glorifying them but I am asked not to chant the names of lord Shiva, they use to ridicule the Hindus for doing so but I never gave up on lord Shiva and I am glad I didn’t

 

 

Re

(the need is to recognise one's gunas and karma and treat one acccordingly, not by birth. if you say, "prahlad is from an asura family," then no problem, but if you say or treat prahlad as an asura, then it is a problem. it would be sin.)

 

Of course credit where credit is due, if Brahmin is not following his dharma then he/ she is a disgrace to that Kula and if a sudra is acting in service of the lord then he/she is a credit to their Kula and a great devotee. Lets not forget just as all the parts are important in a body so are the four Verna’s but head can not do the job of the arms or the legs do the job of the head, although the human social order is more complicated then the simple human body analogy, there is room for change like vishvamitra but this are exception and not a rule, but hey any thing is possible in kali yug like initiation by telephone or tape recorder or may be e Brahmin would you believe that, what next?

 

 

Re

(a corrupt anti hindu politician who cares for himself only and misuses his power and authority is an asura. he does not deserve any treatment better than an asura deserves.

in contrast, a born shudra who has studied scriptures well, and practices and preaches a yoga is a brahmana by guna and karnma. to treat him like a shudra is sin. there is nothing wrong in saying he is from a shudra family. but to insult him is sin too.)

 

Yes agree but I blame the lust, anger and greed and I blame the mulas and Xian’s for breaking up our social order or should I blame the kali yug,

 

Re

 

(samajyaa ke nahi.n?)

Su,n samajvanu? Koi sari disa dekhati nathi, pan kayar thaiy basvani jarur nathi.

te chata je game jagad guru jagdishne.

 

Koti koti praNam! Maadhavji

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[maadhav 0]

 

<< Yes agree but I blame the lust, anger and greed >>

 

but you can control these if they are within you only.

if others cannot control these, then you need to blame them people for not controlling these and causing harm to you or your dears or country. for example, if a an lets out a poisoned gas from his bottle in your home, you cannot say, "the gas is to blame, not the man". The blame the man because he could not conrol his gas bottle, or purposely let the gas out.

 

<< and I blame the mulas and Xian’s for breaking up our social order >>

 

ultimately the blame goes on us.

they did play some part also.

 

<< or should I blame the kali yug, >>

 

sure, but if a person is strong devotee, kali cannot do anything to him/her.

 

<< Koi sari disa dekhati nathi, >>

 

evi shu.n takliph chhe bhai?

dishaa gita maa.nthi malshe.

shradhaathi vaancho.

 

"kaunteya pratijaanihi

na me bhaktah pranashyati" - krishna/gita

 

who can give more security that krishna?

 

[Guest guest]

<< This is as I understand it. The gita defines three modes of living for a person - gyanayogi, karmayogi or bhaktiyogi. >>

yes, you can choose to understaand any way you like,

and also can think that that only is the right message of gita, but that is not what krishna has said - per aacharyas.>

 

Maadhav,

 

the whole purpose of my saying "as I understand it" is to stress the underlying truth that *NONE* of us is an authority on such topics... or do you consider yourself to be one? You've gathered your information from reading and listening, as have I. Do you think your information is more accurate? Why then try to debate?

 

<which gita are you reading or have read lately?>

 

there is only one gita, and i dont have to read it every to know the jist of the important parts.

 

karthik

 

 

[maadhav 0]

<< the whole purpose of my saying "as I understand it" is to stress the underlying truth that *NONE* of us is an authority on such topics...>>

 

if you learn from an authority and understand it correctly and tell it correctly, and liev by it, then that is enough.

now, if some one tryies to teach somethign different, then you need to tell the truth as you know.

this is info age, and info warfare is daily occurance.

 

<< or do you consider yourself to be one? >>

 

it is in the minds of listeners.

my commitment is to tell the truth as i know.

 

<< You've gathered your information from reading and listening, as have I. >>

 

again, our sources and understandings (how our brain akes it) differ.

 

<< Do you think your information is more accurate? >>

i live by it.

 

<< Why then try to debate? >>

 

so, that other hindus (or nonhindus) do not get wrong info.

many times i have said that the hindus need to understand dharma corrctly and live by it correctly.

i care for it and for them.

 

namaskar!