Lord Siva, the Greatest Vaisnava

[Guest guest]

It has never been my intention to degrade the Shaivites, as you have misrepresented me. Lord Siva is the greatest Vaisnava of all, yatha Vaisnavanam Shambhu. We offer our obeisnaces to Lord Siva for being such a pure devotee of Lord Krsna, and pray that we may also become pure devotees of Lord Krsna, like he and Srila Prabhupada are. When you praise someone for being more than they are, that is another form of blasphemy. Lord SIva is a devotee of the Lord, he is not Bhagavan Sri Krsna, the source of everything.

 

It is actually the uneducated fanatics that degrade Lord Siva when they try to put him on the same level as his Lord, Sri Krsna. Better to worship Lord Siva then to worship India's cricket players, and Bollywoodactors and actresses, but a Vaisnava will never tolerate hearing a great devotee of Krsna like Lord Siva being made equal to Krsna, nor will we tolerate self-procalimed avataras masquerading as Lord Krsna. Srila Rupa Gosvami, the chief follower of Lord Caitanya, states that Lord Siva has 84% of Lord Krsna's qualities, and Lord Visnu has 96 % of Krsna's qualities. Unless we accept bona-fide scripture, such as Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, we will always be uselessly gfighting and aruguing with others, and coming to no sane conclusion.

 

 

[atanu 0]

 

Following are a few verses from Vedas. The VEIL IS CREATED AND REMOVED BY Soma and Rudra – Somnath.

 

 

ENJOY AND REJOICE.

 

Note: Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow

 

Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3.

The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.'

 

Rig Veda Book 4 HYMN III. Agni.

1. Assist you to win Rudra, Lord of worship, Priest of both worlds, effectual sacrificer,

Agni, invested with his golden colours, before the thunder strike and lay you senseless.

2 ------

6 What, when thou blazest on the lesser altars, what to the mighty Wind who comes to bless us, True, circumambient? what to Earth, O Agni, what wilt thou say to Rudra who destroys men?

7 How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,- to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations?

What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.

 

Note: Rudra is Visnu when brought down (made manifest), as below:

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

 

Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;

 

 

 

Note: Who is Indra?

 

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds.

He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

2 In heaven's first region, in the seat of Gods, is he who brings success,

Most glorious, prompt to save, who wins the water-floods.

3 ---------

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways,

With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

 

 

Note: Indra is the ancient mind of Rudra. Ancient mind of Rudra forgot that He was the Lord. Durga unveils the truth to Indra in Keno Upanishad.

 

We all forget that the temporary 5 sheaths that we think we are covers the immortal God – the Self.

 

 

 

 

Note: Indra is the Lord of Visnu like Adityas are the Lords of Maruts

 

Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

 

14 Aditi also hath brought forth a hymn for Indra, Sovran Lord: The work of sacrifice for help is glorified.

 

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his,

Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

28 ----------------------

 

 

Note: Visnu through Indra’s energy took wide strides and formed the quarters. Yes, Mind only creates Visnu.

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

2 -----

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

-------------

 

 

Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise

 

Note: Rudra yields to none

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

e The mole is thy beast, O Rudra; rejoice in it.

f This is thy portion, O Rudra, with thy sister Ambika; rejoice in it.

g -------

The god Tryambaka;

That he may make us prosperous,

That he may increase our wealth,

That he may make us rich in cattle,

That he may embolden us.

i To Tryambaka we make offering,

The fragrant, increaser of prosperity;

Like a cucumber from its stem,

From death may I be loosened, not from immortality.

k This is thy portion, O Rudra; rejoice in it; with it for food, do thou go away beyond the Mujavants.

l With unstrung bow, thy club in thy hand, clad in skins.

Note: The Mrityuonjaya mantra

 

Note: RUDRA IS BOLT OF INDRA AND THE WIDE STEPS OF VISNU AS WELL

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

h ------------

 

Note: Agni and Visnu are two forms of Rudra Shiva

 

Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.

a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;

Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;

He who in east, south, west,

In the north, as a foe plots against us,

May he strike on this rock.

The gods and the Asuras were in conflict; the Asuras sought to force them from the quarters; the gods repelled them with arrow and thunder bolt; ---------.

b O Agni and Visnu,

May these songs gladden you in unison;

Come ye with radiance and strength.

The theologians say, 'Since they do not offer to any deity, then what deity has the stream of wealth?' Wealth is Agni, this stream is his; wealth is Visnu, this stream is his; with a verse addressed to Agni and Visnu he offers the stream of wealth; verily he unites them with their proper portions; ------- The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; in that he offers the Çatarudriya, he soothes with it his dread form; in that he offers the stream of wealth, he delights with it his auspicious form. He, who knows the support of the stream of wealth

 

 

Note: Rudra is Citta, Bhava, Carva, Mahadeva

 

Yajur Veda i. 4. 36.

a Çitta with the sinew, Bhava with the liver, Rudra with the taniman, Paçupati with the thick heart, Agni with the heart, Rudra with the blood, Çarva with the kidneys, Mahadeva with the intestinal flesh, him that slayest most quickly with the entrails

 

Note: Rudra is everywhere, The Omniscient

Yajur Veda v. 5. 9.

a O Agni, the ocean, thy arrow called the young, with it be gentle

to us; homage to this of thine; may we prosper, living on this of thine.

-------.

i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

 

 

 

 

Note: Rudra is Agni and Pusan

 

Yajur Veda i. 3. 14.

a Thou, O Agni, art Rudra, the Asura of the mighty sky,

Thou art the host of the Maruts, thou art lord of food;

Thou farest with ruddy winds, blessing the household;

Thou, as Pusan dost, protectest thy worshippers with thyself.

b Rudra, king of the sacrifice,

True offerer, priest of both worlds,

Agni before the dreadful thunder,'

Of golden colour, win ye for help.

 

Note: Rudra is Vastopati

 

Yajur Veda iii. 4. 10.

a O Vastospati, accept us;

Be of kind entrance for us and free from ill;

That which we seek from thee, do thou accord us,

-----

[2] Now Vastospati is Rudra. If he were to go on without offering to Vastospati, the fire becoming Rudra would leap after him and slay him; he offers to Vastospati; verily with his own share he appeases him; the sacrificer does not come to ruin.

 

Yajur Veda iv. 5. 7.

-------

n Homage to him of the cloud, and to him of the lightning.

o Homage to him of the cloudy sky, and to him of the heat.

p Homage to him of the wind, and to him of the storm.

q Homage to him of the dwelling, and to him who guardeth the dwelling.

 

Note: He is in heat (agni), lightning (Indra), Wind (Vayu), Storm (Maruts). The dwelling and its guard.

 

 

Note: Savitar is Siva. Aditi accords Rudra’s grace

 

Yajur Veda iii. 4. 11.

a Long life thou givest, O Agni,

-----

e With our hymns to-day we choose

The god of all, the lord of the true,

Savitr of true instigation.

--------.

g That Aditi may accord

To our cattle, our men, our kine,

To our offspring, Rudra's grace.

h Harm us not in our children, our descendants, nor in our life,

Harm us not in our cattle, in our horses [2]

Smite not in anger our heroes, O Rudra,

With oblations let us serve thee with honour

 

Note: The ignorance is truly removed by Soma and Rudra -- Somnath

Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10.

Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought an atonement for him, for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. If he desires to become resplendent, he should offer for him this oblation to Soma and Rudra; verily he has recourse to Soma and Rudra with their own portion; verily they bestow upon him splendour; he becomes resplendent. He should offer on the full moon day of the month Tisya; Tisya is Rudra [1], the full moon is Soma; verily straightway he wins splendour.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Atanu has provided no evidence here to suggest that Shiva is equal to or greater than Lord Vishnu. All he has provided is a number of quotes which may or may not be faithful translations of some sections of the Vedas. I doubt he has enough Sanskrit knowledge to know for sure.

 

On the contrary, the Vedas explicitly declare that Lord Rudra (Shiva) derives his power from worship of Vishnu:

 

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH

vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat || RV 7.40.5 ||

 

The shrutis further state that Vishnu is the highest of all Deities:

 

agnirvai devAnamavamo viShNuH paramaH || aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1.1 ||

 

aniravamo devatAnAM viShNuH paramaH || taittirIya saMhitA 5.5.1 ||

 

The Rig Veda attributes all attributes of a Supreme Being to Lord Vishnu:

 

idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam

samULhamasya pAMsure || RV 1.22.17 ||

trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH

ato dharmANi dhArayan || RV 1.22.18 ||

 

tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH

divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||

 

tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate

viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||

 

viSNornu kaM vIryANi pra vocaM yaH pArthivAni vimamerajAMsi

yo askabhAyaduttaraM sadhasthaM vicakramANastredhorugAyaH || RV 1.154.1 ||

 

pra tad viSNu stavate vIryeNa mRgo na bhImaH kucaro giriSThAH

yasyoruSu triSu vikramaNeSvadhikSiyanti bhuvanAni vishvA || RV 1.152.2 ||

 

pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe

ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH || RV 1.154.3 ||

 

yasya trii puurNaa madhunaa padaanyakShiiyamaaNaa svadhayaa madanti ya u tridhaatu pR^ithiviim uta dyaam eko daadhaara bhuvanaani vishvaa || RV 1.154.4 ||

 

tA vaM vAstUnyushmasi gamadhyai yatra gAvo bhUrishRN^gAayAsaH

atrAha tadurugAyasya vRSNaH paramaM padamava bhAti bhUri || RV 1.154.6 ||

 

These references are straightforward. Vishnu is the Supreme Deity, at least as far as the shrutis are concerned. Others may have a different opinion, and that is fine -- as long as they do not delude others into thinking that their opinions are consistent with shruti.

 

Raghu

 

 

[atanu 0]

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

 

Note: (Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down;

 

 

 

Unlike you I do not have any intention of lowering the infinite Lords. Siva and Visnu are same. One manifests while coming and another manifests while going

 

 

And Yes, Rudra derives His strengh from Visnu becaiuse Visnu is Rudra Arrow.

 

Moreover, read other threads to learn that Visnu derives strength from Indra. Visnu prays to Indra. And Indra is ancient mind of Rudra.

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

om namo Shivaya atanu

 

Unlike you I do not have any intention of lowering the infinite Lords. Siva and Visnu are same. One manifests while coming and another manifests while going

 

that is great

 

 

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.4.1-30 the three devas told Atri Muni, Dear brahmana you are perfect in your determination, and therefore as you have desired so it will happen, it will not happen otherwise. We are all the same person upon whom you were meditating, and therefore we have all come to you.

Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah.

Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell

yatha siva mayo vishnuh

Sivasya hrdyam Visnur Visnoz ca hrdayam Sivah(Skanda puran)

Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva,

Similarly, in Shivas heart Vishnu resides and Vishnus heart is abode of Shiva.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[atanu 0]

"Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.4.1-30 the three devas told Atri Muni, Dear brahmana you are perfect in your determination, and therefore as you have desired so it will happen, it will not happen otherwise. We are all the same person upon whom you were meditating, and therefore we have all come to you.

Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah.

Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell

yatha siva mayo vishnuh

Sivasya hrdyam Visnur Visnoz ca hrdayam Sivah(Skanda puran)

Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva,

Similarly, in Shivas heart Vishnu resides and Vishnus heart is abode of Shiva."

 

 

Let this be read again and again. Let us all unite -- some day.

 

[Guest guest]

where in th sastras does it say that Síva is a servant and the greatest Vaisnava

[barney 0]

Brahman in the Upanishads- Part II

Many are the ways in which Brahman is extolled in the Upanishads. The following are a few most commonly found descriptions, by meditating upon which one may develop some understanding of this vast Phenomenon.

 

1. Brahman is the Reality. He is the Absolute Truth. All else is unreal and mere illusion, a mere shadow that disappears when the Sun shines.

 

2. Brahman is constant and fixed. He is unchangeable, immutable, permanent , incorruptible and inexhaustible. All else is transient, fleeting and changing. Since He is the only fixed factor in an every changing impermanent world, the seers advise us to make Him the center of our lives and activities

 

3. Brahman is eternal and timeless. Since He is the Absolute, Time does not exist in Him. The Past present and future flow in Him simultaneously. The Master of Time and Knower of all events, past., present and future, He creates Time as a part of His play and subjects us all to the motions of Time.

 

4. Brahman is the Creator of all. The world is his projection. He descends into the material universe and subjects Himself to the laws of nature.

 

5. Brahman is the sacred OM.

 

6. Brahman is beyond the senses, but is the mover and enjoyer of senses.

 

7. Brahman is the first principle. He is the Ancient. No one truly knows Him for He is without a beginning and without an end.

 

8. Brahman is pure love. He is described as Lord of Love.

 

9. Brahman is immortal. He in fact is the creator of death and the wheel of life.

 

10. Brahman is the law giver and law maker. He maintain Dharma and Rita (harmony). But He Himself is not subject to any laws.

 

11. Brahman exists in all and all exists in Him. Yet He is beyond all and different from all.

 

12. Brahman is Supreme Bliss. Pure Delight, which is the delight of pure love.

 

13. Brahman is the eternal soul, the Atman, the indweller of mortal bodies, the silent witness, the enjoyer of life and the power behind all the movements of life breath.

 

14. Brahman is above all Gods. None could ever approach Him closely except Indra.

 

15. Brahman is duality personified from the rationale point of view. But strangely in Him all conflicts and contradictions resolve themselves into perfect harmony.

 

16. Brahman is unified awareness, the eternal indivisible One where there is no enjoyer and the enjoyed, the knower and the known.

 

17. Brahman is radiance, effulgence and brilliance of thousands of suns. He is the wielder of pure energy and possessor of pure consciousness.

 

18. Brahman is desireless, without attachment, without vibration, complete, fulfilled, self-satisfied and self- absorbed.

 

19. Brahman is without sleep, dispeller of darkness, the very intelligence in man, One who is awake when we are asleep.

 

20. Brahman is knowledge. He is the knower of all that is, that was and that is yet to come.

 

21. Brahman is man Himself, the ultimate truth which every human being realizes at the end of his spiritual journey. (Isa Upanishad)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

all your definitions are about a personal god, saguna brahman, not nirguna brahman... read a little deeply, not too much, only a little

 

(many thanks to sustain prabhupada's message)

[Guest guest]

Atanu, you have not quoted the Vedas at all... just some English sentences which you allege are faithful translations. So, really you have no proof.

 

 

Unlike you I do not have any intention of lowering the infinite Lords. Siva and Visnu are same.

 

 

That is not stated in the shruti. I have already quoted the passage explaining that Shiva gains his power by worship of Vishnu.

 

 

One manifests while coming and another manifests while going

 

 

 

??

 

 

And Yes, Rudra derives His strengh from Visnu becaiuse Visnu is Rudra Arrow.

 

 

 

No. Rudra derives his strength from Vishnu because Vishnu is Supreme and Rudra is subordinate to him. Just use common sense -- one who gets his power from someone else is obviously not supreme.

 

 

Moreover, read other threads to learn that Visnu derives strength from Indra. Visnu prays to Indra. And Indra is ancient mind of Rudra.

 

 

 

There are no such statements in the shruti

[Guest guest]

Barney says that Prabhupada has misled others into thinking that Krishna is the Supreme God. As "proof" of this, he quotes some English statements, which he assumes are faithful translations of an Upanishad, which describe Brahman.

 

None of this contradicts the view that Krishna/Vishnu is the Supreme Being. He is, after all, that same Supreme Brahman.

 

Here again, is explicit evidence from the Rig Veda indicating that Vishnu is the Supreme Deity. Since Barney just ignored it last time, I will simply repost it again until he acknowledges it.

 

Please note that Vaishnava vedAntins do not distinguish between Krishna and Vishnu. I use the names interchangeably.

 

BTW, I wish to take this time to once again point out that Barney cannot even read Sanskrit. He has no idea what the Upanishads are saying - he just quotes translations whose dry character he happens to like.

 

idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam

samULhamasya pAMsure || RV 1.22.17 ||

trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH

ato dharmANi dhArayan || RV 1.22.18 ||

 

tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH

divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||

 

tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate

viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||

 

viSNornu kaM vIryANi pra vocaM yaH pArthivAni vimamerajAMsi

yo askabhAyaduttaraM sadhasthaM vicakramANastredhorugAyaH || RV 1.154.1 ||

 

pra tad viSNu stavate vIryeNa mRgo na bhImaH kucaro giriSThAH

yasyoruSu triSu vikramaNeSvadhikSiyanti bhuvanAni vishvA || RV 1.152.2 ||

 

pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe

ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH || RV 1.154.3 ||

 

yasya trii puurNaa madhunaa padaanyakShiiyamaaNaa svadhayaa madanti ya u tridhaatu pR^ithiviim uta dyaam eko daadhaara bhuvanaani vishvaa || RV 1.154.4 ||

 

tA vaM vAstUnyushmasi gamadhyai yatra gAvo bhUrishRN^gAayAsaH

atrAha tadurugAyasya vRSNaH paramaM padamava bhAti bhUri || RV 1.154.6 ||

 

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

where in th sastras does it say that Síva is a servant and the greatest Vaisnava

 

 

 

Look in the Bhagavatam. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Guest guest]

more then sb I mean