Vaishnavas are not hindus?!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

••this is my point... i have started saying that someone believes that hinduism is one religion but they are at least Three with some external similarity. Vaishnavas so, as you are rightly saying, are not christians, muslim, buddhist and hindus

 

Guys this is a C&P from another thread.

I think somebody in the disguise of a Vaishnava guest is trying to create a rift between the Hindu Vaishnavas and Non Vaishnava Hindus.

 

I am surprised to see that he claims Vaishnavas cannot be hindus.

 

Please clarify.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree with you. But I have met some very narrow minded Vasihnavas as well as Shaivites in my life. At times Iskcon has denied that they have anything to do with Hinduism, at other times (when they need help) they state that they are a part of Hinduism.

 

All 'true' Hindu sects have the basic belifs originate from the Vedas and Upanishads and hold this up as Shruti. The Vedanta of the upanishads are very broad and the sects have taken up different views of the upanishads mixed with puranic stories as their authority. After time some seem to be based more on the Puranas of which you can see sectarian bias than the Vedas. These sects have inherited that bias from their leaders who followed their sectarian puranas and called other puranas tamasic. So their followers developed a dislike for each other and prefer to be known by their sect rather than Sanatanis or Hindus - they don't want to be lumped with the others. It's just as Buddhism was once a part of Hinduims and soon seperated itself from it. The problem with this is some want to split from Hinduism so they can be known not just as a mere sect, but as a seperate religion. This could cause alot of problems. Also when Iskcon started, as they were rapidly growing they thought that they would be so big, they could have more followers than all other sects put together and 'take over' from Hinduism.

 

The way most Hindus see it, is that Vaishnavas are a part of Hinduism along with Shaivites, Shaktas, Smarthas - these are all denominations.

[Guest guest]

*****These sects have inherited that bias from their leaders who followed their sectarian puranas and called other puranas tamasic*****

 

Do you mean to say, its becuase of the ego of the individuals or the founders of the sects to call themselves gods and founders of a new religion??

I think yes.

[Guest guest]

"I think somebody in the disguise of a Vaishnava guest is trying to create a rift between the Hindu Vaishnavas and Non Vaishnava Hindus"

---

 

you have a typical fanatic dictatorial behaviour, if one thinks different by you, he's an enemy without ever attempting to give an explanation

 

it this your way to promote union among so called hindu groups? what's the purpose? who is the fanatic, the separatist or the unionist?

[Guest guest]

You think wrong. And you fail to recognise the fact, the same vedas praise both Vishnu and Siva.

 

So who is fanatical? You are me?

[Guest guest]

1)nothing against shiva

2)nothing against nirguna brahman

 

only different interpretation of the meaning of vedas and of the places in supremacy of shiva, krsna and brahman

 

i have nothing against jesus too.. but i am not a catholic for this

 

to say that i prefere my wife, does not means that your wife is bad

 

difference is not dislike or war... forced union is war

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Anybody know where in the Vedas the word Hindu is used?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well thats not the issue.

The issue is " Is Vaishnavism a different religion or not"

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

he surrendered to Krsna.

 

Krsna says 'Abandon all varities of Religion and just surrender unto me, I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction, Do Not Fear.

 

I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion, Religion you could change at any time, but your position remains the same.

 

I could be a Christian/Muslim very easily, to be a Vaishnava requires so much, how many individuals are willing to take it up? Not a lot it seems..

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Krsna says 'Abandon all varities of Religion and just surrender unto me, I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction, Do Not Fear.)

 

Arjun is kstrya, Lord Krishna is asking him to follow his dharma (duty).

 

Re

(I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion,)

 

Yes Vaishnava is one who worship Lord Vishnu.It is a way of life,religion has no meaning for this.

 

Re

(Religion you could change at any time, but your position remains the same. )

 

Depands what you mean by religion?

 

Re

(I could be a Christian/Muslim very easily, to be a Vaishnava requires so much, how many individuals are willing to take it up? Not a lot it seems..)

 

It is said to follow the path of dharma is like walking on a double edged sword.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

 

[Guest guest]

<--- *****These sects have inherited that bias from their leaders who followed their sectarian puranas and called other puranas tamasic*****

 

Do you mean to say, its becuase of the ego of the individuals or the founders of the sects to call themselves gods and founders of a new religion??

I think yes. -->

 

WE vaishnavas can prove that the "tamasic" puranas are not supported by vedas & smritis. If you people want to say those puranas are not tamasic, then you should demonstrate that those puranas are supported by vedas & smritis instead of making a dictating approach.

 

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Arjun is kstrya, Lord Krishna is asking him to follow his dharma (duty).

--

 

Friend and Vaishnava, two in one package.

 

You can't be a Friend of Krsna, without being a Vaishnava, Arjuna says I have dined with, been familiar with you, I did not know you are Supreme God, Arjuna was sorry, but he had no reason to be, those are qualities of a Vaishnava.

 

You can't find this in any common man, thats includes Hindus.

 

 

[Guest guest]

(Krsna says 'Abandon all varities of Religion and just surrender unto me, I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction, Do Not Fear.)

Arjun is kstrya, Lord Krishna is asking him to follow his dharma (duty).

--no, this verse speak of the moment when the duties are fulfilled and it is the time of abandone everything.. including sectarian and nationalistic religion (not religion at all.. religion means connection.. yoga)

 

Re

(I don't think you can put Vaishnava into a catagory of a Religion,)

Yes Vaishnava is one who worship Lord Vishnu.It is a way of life,religion has no meaning for this.

--of course, so the "hinduism" religion has no meaning too

 

Re

(Religion you could change at any time, but your position remains the same. )

Depands what you mean by religion?

--the one accepted by faith, birth, tradition, nationalism

 

Re

(I could be a Christian/Muslim very easily, to be a Vaishnava requires so much, how many individuals are willing to take it up? Not a lot it seems..)

It is said to follow the path of dharma is like walking on a double edged sword.

--so let us do not mix nationalism with spirituality... hindu means india

[Guest guest]

**Do you mean to say, its becuase of the ego of the individuals or the founders of the sects to call themselves gods and founders of a new religion??**

 

I think it's really in the Puranas that you'll see the problems arising. There are 18 Puranas in total, 6 for the Vaishnavas, 6 for the Shaivites and 6 for the Shaktas. Although sects claim that Sage Vyasa is the author of all the Puranas, this is unlikely as they were written after Sage Vyasa's time...they simply passed it off as a work of Vyasa, but was probably the work of sectarian leaders themselves, who saw their 'form' of God as superior.

 

The problem with the Puranas is that each sect recognises only their 6 puranas as superior and the others as inferior (or tamasic). The 6 Vaishanava Puranas glorify Vishnu as Superior and Shiva and Shakti as Inferior, The 6 Shaivite Puranas and 6 Shakti Puranas glorify their main God and put down the other two. Alot of the 'other two' gods are humiliated and made to look like servants of the main God, whether it by Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti. For example in the Shakti puranas both Vishnu and Shiva are lower than Shakti and have to bow down to her and ask for her blessings. You can see how this has caused sectarianism to run riot!

 

And Gokul, NO the Vedas speak nothing of the Puranas. The Vedas were before the puranas. The Vaishnavas follow 'their' puranas (especially srimad bhagvatam) and gita, but NOT the Vedas. The sectarian groups take their authority from the puranas which is smriti and not the vedas, which is sruti. Shruti should really be the authority for all Hindus. The only two well-known Hindu groups that follow just the Vedas are the Arya Samaj and Sri Aurobindo's Ashram, the latter also follow Upanishads and Gita so you could say they follow sruti only. Various Vedanta groups follow only Upanishads and Gita so maybe they are more closer to the true 'authority' than sectarian movements are.

 

[Guest guest]

of course your analisys is from your point of view, because the groups who give more importance to puranas will say that they are the perfection of vedas so they are following vedas more than ones who follow them as main scriptures

 

(and it is a demonstration of this inconsistence of hinduism that who, for you, follows exactly vedas are groups with little or no tradition)

 

but the main point is that some one has many reason to not be called hinduist, and tolerance means to respect this position even if we are not agree

 

hinduism is a path of tolerance.. and you say that who does not want to be called hinduist is sectarian?

 

tolerance works only among self declared hindus?

but the main point is one

[Guest guest]

"but the main point is one" at the end of the messace is a paste error

[maadhav 0]

<< Anybody know where in the Vedas the word Hindu is used?

>>

 

why is it so difficult to understand that hindu is a new name for varnasramis, and

hinduism is a new name for varnasrama dharma?

 

the vedas are given to us long before the new names were accepted.

 

even your name or your father's name may not exist in the vedas. does that mean you or he does not exist?

 

HK's, i wish, should give up such arguments.

 

even the word hippies is not in the vedas,

still hippies did exist, now with the vedic/hindu names.

 

 

[Guest guest]

**(and it is a demonstration of this inconsistence of hinduism that who, for you, follows exactly vedas are groups with little or no tradition)**

 

Actually Arya Samaj is a re-hash of an ancient school of Vedic thought. There is many different traditions in Hinduism based on different schools, etc - let me remind you that when these 'sects' such as Vaishnavism started there was little or no tradition, they had to aquire the sampradaya status over time. Plus even within these sects there are differences, which causes them to split into more sects, so who is right and who is wrong? Even Hare Krishna arn't accepted by some Vaishnava sects of the sampradaya they claim.

 

As for the puranas, if they are smriti, how can they be the perfection of the Vedas? That would imply that there is something wrong with the Vedas, that they see some fault for the reason for the Puranas to replace them? Is this their attempt at superceeding the Vedas? So they DO admit they are following a sect based on the Puranas!...believing the puranas are superior. The Vedas are supposed to be as perfect as they are that's why they are Shruti. The Puranas contradict the Vedas anyway.

 

It's funny how you guys shout "tolerance" when you're on the defence.

[Guest guest]

<-- And Gokul, NO the Vedas speak nothing of the Puranas. The Vedas were before the puranas. The Vaishnavas follow 'their' puranas (especially srimad bhagvatam) and gita, but NOT the Vedas. The sectarian groups take their authority from the puranas which is smriti and not the vedas, which is sruti. Shruti should really be the authority for all Hindus. The only two well-known Hindu groups that follow just the Vedas are the Arya Samaj and Sri Aurobindo's Ashram, the latter also follow Upanishads and Gita so you could say they follow sruti only. Various Vedanta groups follow only Upanishads and Gita so maybe they are more closer to the true 'authority' than sectarian movements are. -- >

 

Excuss me, its not true that vaishnavas follow only sathvic puranas and Not Vedas. It is actually the shaviatees follow "only" shiva purana. Puranas are said to be symbolic representation of vedas. If a purana seems to be contradict vedas, then it is not considered to be authentic. so the puranas which symbolize vedas perfectly are called "sathvic".

 

if we say a purana is supported by vedas, then it is actually said that this purana symbolises the vedas, it is not that the name of the purana appears in veda.

 

Anyway, again without demonstrating that your puranas symbolize/support vedas you cant just blame on vaishnava view as secretarial. You dont have any proper reason to tell view of vaishnava acharyas as secreatarial.

 

First, as a gentleman/gentlewoman demonstrate that tamasic puranas symbolize vedas. otherwise you have no point in blaming vaishnva view as secretarial. if you still blame without demonstrating i have to consider you as a fanatic/fundamentalist.

[Guest guest]

The topic under discussion is, some people have claimed that Vaishnavas are not hindus and vaishnavism is not hinduism.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

HK's, i wish, should give up such arguments.

--

 

Before Srila Prabhupada, hardly anybody in the Western world knew about True, True Vaishnava Culture, Iskcon is coming from Disiplic Succession from Lord Krsna,

 

though when somebodys asks Hk's is this Hindu culture at first you say yes, then you explain more,

 

Most of racial tension is caused by designations, which would be good to get rid off, I am Muslim/Hindu etc

 

We worship the same God, getting rid of Hindu etc, would be a smart move. Slowly, so hopefully more ppls would see the Nature of Vedic Culture is 100cent Scientific, and would take it up, along with the Varna System.

 

Hope I am not dreaming.

[Guest guest]

the problem is yours... i have not any desire to join hinduism.. so if you think that i am different there's not any problem at all

 

let us remain different

[Guest guest]

"the problem is yours... i have not any desire to join hinduism.. so if you think that i am different there's not any problem at all

 

let us remain different "

 

That was clear right from the beginning.

Hinduism does not believe in conversion and Joining. May be HKs and Vaishnavas do.

 

 

[Guest guest]

**May be HKs and Vaishnavas do.**

 

Hare Krishna's DO believe in conversion and it is what they do. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, a persons has the choice to either accept or reject what they say. But out of all Hindu groups they have done the most work of attracting non-indians and those of other faiths to it's fold which is commendable. They should be respected for that.

 

[Guest guest]

We have a guest who keeps claiming that, he does not consider vaishnavas as hindus.

 

I object to that wrong information. Hinduism is not what his views are. And if most HKs believe that they are not hindus, let them proclaim that officially and not vascillate based on the situation like politicians.