Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva 2

[atanu 0]

Dear Raghuram ji

No one can overcome you. You are the unassailable Rudra yourself.

 

Name and forms are Maya; but the essence beneath is eternal. To me, the supreme lord is compassionate (mother and father) and auspicious (Shiva) first and foremost; and also surely all pervading (Vishnu). All pervading nature without auspiciousness will hold no meaning for me. And since, supreme Lord is one without a second, the question of supremacy does not arise. There is nothing to compare with.

 

Also, the Lord cannot forsake the Tamasic manifests. When there is only one being, then where the question of Tamasic and Rajasic arises from? – surely from one Lord only. Shiva is known to have said to the mother “no one wants to take up the dirty and difficult jobs and unkempt forms, so have I assumed an unkempt form and I protect all – sundry and low and sinners and demons etc.”

 

Raghuram ji, you cannot say that some part of Vedas is Svattik and owned by God and some other part is Tamasik and owned by none. All that there is, is Him only, rest is in your externalized mind.

 

Shankhachuda was unassailable due to boon of Brahma. Only destruction of Shankhachuda’s wife’s chastity could weaken him. O, Narayana, the Purusha of the Vedas, you as Vishnu took upon you the sin of breaking chastity of Sankhachuda’s wife (Tulasi) to weaken Shankhachuda and thus protect Uma-Shankara, who were in fierce fight with Shankhachuda. Without your sacrifice Shankhachuda could not have been vanquished (From Sri Hari-bhakti-vilas).

 

This is reflected in the the sloka given below.

HYMN XL. Visvedevas.

5 With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu.

Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands.

 

Shiva reciprocates by providing unlimited service through Marudganas eternally as show below:

 

HYMN LXXXVII. Maruts.

1. To Visnu, to the Mighty whom the Maruts follow let your hymns born in song go forth, Evayamarut; To the impetuous, strong band, adorned with bracelets, that rushes on in joy and ever roars for vigour.

8 Come in a friendly spirit, come to us, O Maruts, and hear his call who praises you, Evayamarut. Like car-borne men, one-minded with the mighty Visnu, keep enmity far from us with your deeds of wonder.

 

 

O, MahaVishnu at your instance, Shiva consumed Halahal and lovingly you gave him the name Neelkantha. The love between you and Hara is divine.

 

You are one. You are all pervasive Vishnu and you are auspicious Shiva. Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva; not like milk and curd, but like a single moment of time, which appears as night time to some part of the world and which appears as day time to the other part of the world.

But, why for us mortals you uphold the Maya of discord and division? Hari-Hara pray unveil the Maya. Pray dilute our ego.

 

From Upanishad

 

'When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

 

Suta Samhita

Vrikshasyamula Sekena Shakhahpusyanti Vaiyatha Shive Rudre Japatpreteprita Yevasya Devatah

By watering the tree at the base of the trunk all the parts of the tree including branches, leaves, fruits etc are strengthened. In the same way by worshipping Shiva all will be pleased and one will get both the earthly and heavenly benefits including liberation.

 

Three Slokas from Shree Rudram

 

Prostrations to the one who is the eldest and the youngest. Prostrations to the primordial cause and the subsequent effect. Prostrations to the eternal youth; who is also the infant. Prostrations to the one who is in the loins and in the roots. Prostrations to the one present in vice and virtue and all that is dynamic.

 

oM namo bhagavate rudrAya vishhNave mR^ityurme pAhi |

prANAnAM granthirasi rudro mA vishAntakaH |

tenAnnenApyAyasva || 6||

namo rudraaya vishhNave mR^ityurme pAhi

 

agnaavishhNuu sajoshhasemaa vardhantu vaaM giraH |

dyumnairvaajebhiraagatam.h

 

The last two slokas establish that Rudra himself is all pervading – Vishnave and agnaavishnuu

 

Lest the above slokas be considered Tamasic, I reproduce below some from Rig Veda.

 

 

Rig Veda 7.46.2

He through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Please Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome You (O Rudra), and heal all sickness, in our families.

 

Note: He through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power.

 

Rig Veda 10.191.3

sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

Mandala 7 hymn 46

 

imA rudrAya sthiradhanvane giraH kSipreSave devAya svadhAvne

aSALhAya sahamAnAya vedhase tigmAyudhAya bharatA shRNotu naH

sa hi kSayeNa kSamyasya janmanaH sAmrAjyena divyasya cetati

avannavantIrupa no durashcarAnamIvo rudra jAsu no bhava

yA te didyudavasRSTA divas pari kSmayA carati pari sAvRNaktu naH

sahasraM te svapivAta bheSajA mA nastokeSutana yeSu rIriSah

mA no vadhI rudra mA parA dA mA te bhUma prasitau hILitasya

A no bhaja barhiSi jIvashaMse yUyaM pAta ...

 

Translation

 

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

2 He through his lordship of things on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway. Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome thee, and heal all sickness, Rudra, in our families.

3 May thy bright arrow which, shot down by thee from heaven, flieth upon the earth, pass us uninjured by. Thou, very gracious God, bast thousand medicines: inflict no evil on our sons or progeny.

4 Slay us not, nor abandon us, O Rudra let not thy noose, when thou art angry, seize us.

Give us trimmed grass and fame among the living. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

 

 

Note: The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome

 

Second mandala, hymn 33

 

A te pitar marutAM sumnametu mA naH sUryasya sandRSo yuyothAH

abhi no vIro arvati kSameta pra jAyemahi rudra prajAbhiH

tvAdattebhI rudra shantamebhiH shataM himA ashIya bheSajebhiH

vyasmad dveSo vitaraM vyaMho vyamIvAshcAtayasvA viSUcIH

shreSTho jAtasya rudra shriyAsi tavastamastavasAM vajrabAho

parSi NaH pAramaMhasaH svasti vishvA abhItI rapaso yuyodhi

mA tvA rudra cukrudhAmA namobhirmA duSTutI vRSabha mAsahUtI

un no vIrAnarpaya bheSajebhirbhiSaktamaM tvA bhiSajAM shRNomi

havImabhirhavate yo havirbhirava stomebhI rudraM diSIya

RdUdaraH suhavo mA no asyai babhruH sushipro rIradhan manAyai

un mA mamanda vRSabho marutvAn tvakSIyasA vayasA nAdhamAnam

ghRNIva chAyAmarapA ashIyA vivAseyaM rudrasya sumnam

kva sya te rudra mRLayAkurhasto yo asti bheSajo jalASaH

apabhartA rapaso daivyasyAbhI nu mA vRSabha cakSamIthAH

pra babhrave vRSabhAya shvitIce maho mahIM suSTutimIrayAmi

namasyA kalmalIkinaM namobhirgRNImasi tveSaM rudrasya nAma

sthirebhiraN^gaiH pururUpa ugro babhruH shukrebhiH pipishehiraNyaiH

IshAnAdasya bhuvanasya bhUrerna vA u yoSad rudrAdasuryam

arhan bibharSi sAyakAni dhanvArhan niSkaM yajataM vishvarUpam

arhannidaM dayase vishvamabhvaM na vA ojIyo rudra tvadasti

stuhi shrutaM gartasadaM yuvAnaM mRgaM na bhImamupahatnumugram

mRlA jaritre rudra stavAno.anyaM te asman ni vapantu senAH

kumArashcit pitaraM vandamAnaM prati nAnAma rudropayantam

bhUrerdAtAraM satpatiM gRNISe stutastvaM bheSajA rAsyasme

yA vo bheSajA marutaH shucIni yA shantamA vRSaNo yA mayobhu

yAni manuravRNItA pitA nastA shaM ca yoshcarudrasya vashmi

pari No hetI rudrasya vRjyAH pari tveSasya durmatirmahIgAt

ava sthirA maghavadbhyastanuSva mIDhvastokAya tanayAya mRLa

evA babhro vRSabha cekitAna yathA deva na hRNISe na haMsi

havanashrun no rudreha bodhi bRhad v. v. s.

 

Translation

1. FATHER of Maruts, let thy bliss approach us: exclude us not from looking on the sunlight. Gracious to our fleet courser be the Hero may we transplant us, Rudra, in our children.

2 With the most saving medicines which thou givest, Rudra, may I attain a hundred winters. Far from us banish enmity and hatred, and to all quarters maladies and trouble.

3 Chief of all born art thou in glory, Rudra, armed with the thunder, mightiest of the mighty. Transport us over trouble to well-being repel thou from us all assaults of mischief.

4 Let us not anger thee with worship, Rudra, ill praise, Strong God! or mingled invocation. Do thou with strengthening balms incite our heroes: I hear thee famed as best of all physicians.

5 May I with praise-songs win that Rudra's favour who is adored with gifts and invocations. Ne'er may the tawny God, fair-checked, and gracious, swift hearing, yield us to this evil purpose.

6 The Strong, begirt by Maruts, hath refreshed me, with most invigorating food, imploring. As he who finds a shade in fervent sunlight may I, uninjured, win the bliss of Rudra.

7 Where is that gracious hand of thine, O Rudra, the hand that giveth health and bringeth comfort, Remover of the woe that Gods have sent us? O Strong One, look thou on me with compassion.

8 To him the strong, great, tawny, fair-complexioned, I utter forth a mighty hymn of praises. We serve the brilliant God with adorations, we glorify, the splendid name of Rudra.

9 With firm limbs, multiform, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations: The strength of Godhead ne'er departs from Rudra, him who is Sovran of this world, the mighty.

10 Worthy, thou carriest thy bow and arrows, worthy, thy many hued and honoured necklace. Worthy, thou cuttest here each fiend to pieces: a mightier than thou there is not, Rudra.

11 Praise him the chariot-borne, the young, the famous, fierce, slaying like a dread beast of the forest. O Rudra, praised, be gracious to the singer. let thy hosts spare us and smite down another.

12 I bend to thee as thou approachest, Rudra, even as a boy before the sire who greets him. I praise thee Bounteous Giver, Lord of heroes: give medicines to us as thou art lauded.

13 Of your pure medicines, O potent Mart its, those that are wholesomest and healthbestowing, Those which our father Manu hath selected, I crave from. Rudra for our gain and welfare.

14 May Rudra's missile turn aside and spare us, the great wrath of the impetuous One avoid us. Turn, Bounteous God, thy strong bow from our princes, and be thou gracious to our seed and offspring.

15 O tawny Bull, thus showing forth thy nature, as neither to be wroth, O God, nor slay us. Here, Rudra, listen to our invocation. Loud may we speak, with heroes, in assembly.

 

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise,

That shall be dearest to his heart?

2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine,

Our cattle and our progeny;

3 That Mitra and that Varuna, that Rudra may remember us,

Yea, all the Gods with one accord.

4 To Rudra Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines,

We pray for joy and health and strength.

5 He shines in splendour like the Sun, refulgent as bright gold is he,

The good, the best among the Gods.

6 May he grant health into our steeds, wellbeing to our rams and ewes,

To men, to women, and to kine.

7 O Soma, set thou upon us the glory of a hundred men,

The great renown of mighty chiefs.

8 Let not malignities, nor those who trouble Soma, hinder us.

Indu, give us a share of strength.

9 Soma! head, central point, love these; Soma! know these as serving thee,

Children of thee Immortal, at the highest place of holy law.

 

Note 1: Aditi, mother of Vishnu, is invoked to obtain Rudra’s grace.

Note 2: Rudra is the Lord of sacrifice and hymns

 

Rig Veda 6. 74. 3

 

Soma and Rudra, provide for our bodies all needful medicines. Loosen and withdraw from within us whatever sin we have committed, which still adheres within our persons.

 

Note: Liberation from Karma and its effects is Shiva’s domain.

 

Indra himself is called Shiva several times in Rig Veda (2:20:3, 6:45:17, 8:93:3).

 

Agni, as also Indra, is not infrequently called Shiva, Shambhu or Rudra. Agni is proclaimed to be the ancient Shiva (RV, VIII.39.3). Agni became Shiva-friend (Good friend) of the Devas, the first of Angiras, the lord of Maruttas-Kavayas (RV, I.31.1). He is the Pashupa (RV, I.144.5; IV.6.4; X.142.2) or the lord of the Pashupas (X.142.2), i. e. Shiva. Around him, as the Pashupati or king of the animals, i.e. lion, are sitting all the animals (pashavas—RV, X.142.2).

 

Vastospati is Shiva- the auspicious one below

HYMN LV. Vastospati.

1. VASTOSPATI, who killest all disease and wearest every form,

Be an auspicious Friend to us.

2. When, O bright Son of Sarama, thou showest, tawny-hued! thy teeth,

They gleam like lances' points within thy mouth when thou wouldst bite; go thou to steep.

3. Sarama's Son, retrace thy way: bark at the robber and the thief.

 

Maruts who are always in attendance to Vishnu stem from Rudra

HYMN LVI. Maruts.

22 What time the men in fury rush together for running streams, for pastures, and for houses. Then, O ye Maruts, ye who spring from Rudra, be our protectors in the strife with foemen.

 

 

Rig Veda Mandal VII Sukta 59 and Mantra 12

 

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka (Rudra), Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment , May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, But not From Immorality.

 

Rudra-Shiva, the old god of India, is the source of the songs of the Rig Veda.

 

Of all who are born You are the greatest

Of all the powers, you are the most compelling

Lustre itself becomes pale and outshone by you

O Rudra!

Protect us from the hordes of sins that assault us

Stand between us and them

Repel them with the thunderbolt of your arm

O Rudra! Lead us to the other bank

Let us cross with ease.

 

Rig Veda 10.125.8

He is Rudra because He makes sinners weep ... is called Shiva as He is the benefactor and the well-wisher of all.

 

Pancha Rudra

 

Pancha Rudra hymns (consists of 5 Suktas) are taken from different Ashtaka, Adyaya etc.

 

These Mantras were discovered by various Rishies, the Devata is Rudra and appearing in various Chandas ( like Gayatri, Jagati, Trishtup etc)

By watering the tree at the base of the trunk all the parts of the tree including branches, leaves, fruits etc are strengthened. In the same way by worshipping Siva (1) all his related Devas will be pleased and one will get both the earthly and heavenly benefits including liberation. (2) all the evil manifestations in the neighbourhood and in the village premises will be driven of, (3) all worries/ sorrows will be removed in the entire area.

 

Meaning of some Mantras in this Sukta :

1. WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise, That shall be dearest to his heart? (1.43.1)

2. To Rudra Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and mild medicines, We pray for joy and health and strength. (1.43.4)

 

3. To the strong Rudra bring we these our songs of praise, to him the Lord of Heros with the braided hair, That it be well with all our cattle and our men, that in this village all he healthy and well-fed. (1.114.1)

4 Be gracious unto us, O Rudra, bring us joy: You, Lord of Heroes, with Your reverence only we are serving. Whatever health and strength our father Manu won by sacrifice, can we gain under your guidance? (1.114.2)

5. By worship of the Gods can we, O Bounteous One, O Rudra, gain with your grace, Ruler of valiant men. Come to our families, bringing them bliss to our heroes who are uninjured, bring us sacred gifts.(1.114.3)

6. Don't Harm us Rudra, in our seed and progeny, don't harm us in the living, nor in cows or war horses, don't Slay our heroes in the anger (of your anger). We are Bringing oblations to you always. (1.114.8)

7. Chief of all born with skill in your glory, Rudra, armed with the thunder, mightiest of the mighty. Transport us over trouble to well-being and keep away from you, all assaults of mis. chief from us.(2.33.3)

 

8. I bend to you as your approachest, Rudra, even as a boy before the Pitrus who greets him. I praise you as Bounteous Giver, Lord of heroes: give medicines to us as your skill is to be praised. (2.33.12)

9. O yellow Bull,your are showing your nature, as neither to be angry, O God, don't slay us. Here, Rudra, listen to our chanting. Let us Chant/Pray Loudly with heroes, in this assembly. (2.33.15)

 

In sloka above Agni is Rudra

 

10. Provide, O Soma-Rudra, for our bodies all needful medicines to heal and cure us. Set free and draw away the sin committed which we have still inherent in our persons. (6.74.3)

 

In sloka above Soma is Rudra

 

11. Armed with sharp shafts and weapons, kind and loving Soma-Rudra, be gracious to us. Release us from the cord of Varuna; keep us from sorrow, and keep us in your tender loving-kindness.(6.74.4)

12. He through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Please Come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome You (O Rudra), and heal all sickness, in our families. (7.46.2)

 

The Manyu Sukta

Manyu Sukta appears in 8th Ashtaka, 3rd Adyaya and 18th & 19th Varga of Rig Veda (In otherwords, 10th Mandala, 83rd&84th Sukta) comprises of 14 Mantras.

 

The Rishi is Manyustapasa, Devata is Manyu and the Chandas are Trishtup and Jagati

 

Manyu Sukta Homa - Accoring to the Rig Veda Prayoga Chandrika, the Manyu Sukta Homa is given a prominent place. Manyu is the synonym of Lord Shiva. It means 'anger'. Those belonging to the Rig Veda saka very commonly perform Manyu Sukta Homa. It is stated in the Rig Veda Prayoga Chandrika, that the devotees who are suffering from the afflictions caused by incurable diseases, or enemies, can get rid of these by performing the Manyu Sukta Homa.

 

Significance of Mantras in Manyu Sukta :

 

1. Is Manyu Indra? yes, the God was Manyu. Manyu is Hota, Varuna and Jatavedas. All human lineage worship Manyu. Corresponding with the zeal (Bhakti), Manyu guard us.

 

2. Come here Manyu, mightier than the mighty; chase, our enemy with your enthusiasm for a friend. O, Destructive force of enemy, (Vrutra and of Dasyu), you bring to us all kinds of wealth and treasure.

 

3. I have departed, still without a portion, wise God! (Manyu) according to your will, the Mighty. I am small and weak man, was wroth(angry), O Manyu I am myself; come to me and give me vigour.

 

4. O Conquerer, twin-born with power, destructive bolt of thunder, the highest conquering might is yours. Be friendly to it, in your spirit. O Manyu, Much-invoked, in shock of mighty battle.

 

5 Unyielding bringing victory like Indra, O Manyu, You be here with our Emperor. To your dear name, O Conqueror, we sing praises: we know the spring from you come here.

 

6. For spoil, let Varuna and Manyu give us the wealth of both sides gathered and collected; And let our enemies with stricken spirits, overwhelmed with terror, creep away and defeated.

 

The core of the Vedas

The Holy Five Syllables namaH SivAya is the heart of vedas. It is the core of the very famous chapter of vedas that stands in the middle of the vedas - the shata rudrIyam or rudra sUktam. This great mantra of veda samhita while hailing the God as the Lord of everything of the worlds, salutes the God as namaH SivAya cha SivatarAya cha.

 

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me":

"We know, O Krishna, that Thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for Thy good. My love and affection for Thee is very great. Do Thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto Thee. O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what Thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, Thou shalt have them still".

The blessed Krishna said: "Bowing my head with great joy unto that mass of energy and effulgence, I said these words unto that great Deity, with a heart filled with gladness, -firmness in virtue, the slaughter of foes in battle, the highest fame, the greatest might, devotion to Yoga, Thy adjacence, and hundreds upon hundreds of children- these are the boons I solicit of Thee".

 

The following is from the Tulasi Ramayana, Uttara-Kanda, Doha 45:

 

"Sankara Bhajan Bina Nara Bhagati Na Paavai Mori"

Sri Rama said: "With joined palms I lay before you all another secret doctrine: without adoring Sankara (Lord Siva) man cannot attain devotion to Me."

Story from SAra KAndam - Chapters Four & Ten

 

RAma's worship of Siva

 

Ananda RAmAyaNam gives at least 2 instances where RAma worships Siva.

 

1) Chapter Four describes SrI RAma's daily activities; it is said that RAma did agnihOtram and worshiped the sphatika lingam every day offering vilvam and flowers.

 

2) Chapter 10 talks about RAma's worship again: Before building the bridge(sEtu) on the ocean, RAma did pooja for Lord VignEswara (GaNapati); with NaLan's help, He established 9 stones for Navagrahams and prayed to Navagrahams.

 

Sri RAma then wished to establish a Sivalingam and asked HanumAn to get a Sivalingam from Lord Siva from KAsi (Benares). HanumAn did not arrive with the lingam before the auspicious time; so, RAma made a lingam out of sand and performed Siva worship. Later, the lingam brought

by HanumAn was also established close by. [The lingam established by Sri RAma is called RAmanAthalingam and the lingam established by HanumAn is called ViswanAtha lingam in RAmEswaram

 

Linga Purana

 

Once the god of creation brahma and the god of protection mahA vishNu entered in an argument on deciding who is greater. When those two great gods were fighting between themselves, Lord shiva who is formless and transcends everything appeared as a pillar of flame. God told brahma and vishNu that whoever finds the head or the foot of His flame form would be considered greater. brahmA took the form of swan ( ha.msam ) and set out to reach the top of the Fire. vishNu became a wild pig to see the foot of the Fire. Where are the limits for the infinite God? They could not succeed in spite of their heavy effort. They realized their mistake and the peerless greatness of Lord shiva. The God who can never be reached by ego appears as the form of love to those who surrender to Him. Lord shiva appeared in the form of shiva li.ngam (which is the shape of flame) for their benefit. They worshiped that oldest form of Him and got blessed. The God who came to bless them from the Flame, from the li.ngam is known as li.ngodbhava (2). This incident is depicted in shiva mahA purANam (1) and many other scriptures.

As the God stood as pillar of flame, the natural adornment for the Lord is Holy Ash. (As ash would be found on the surface of the fire). As the God stood as the Luminat Flame that stood up the shiva sahasranAma hails God as Urdva retas and the shiva aShtottara as hiraNya retas. The hymn that starts nidhana pataye namaH, refers to many similarities of Flame and shivalinga.

God is formless, attributeless and omnipresent. This state is called arUpa (formless). For the benefit of the pashus, He took the form of shiva li.ngam which is neither form nor formless but is a symbol. This symbol of Him is called arUparUpam (formless form). He took many forms out of His mercy to bless all, which are called rUpams. (2).

 

Skanda Purana

 

In the Shiva Rahasya Chapter in the Skanda Purana, there is a shloka of 40 verses where Vishnu praises Lord Shiva as the Ultimate truth and it ends as:

Ithi Sthuthva shivam vishnu: pranamya cha muhurmuhu:

 

Sometimes I wonder, whether Rama and Krishna, who some Vaishnavaites show as the Ishta Devata of Shiva are mentioned in Rig Veda? Some even show Shiva fighting Rama and Krishna and under go humiliating defeat. Vaishnavaites do it to degrade Shiva or to degrade Shaivaites? No doubt, some Shaivaites try to do the same.

 

Let us remember the teaching of desecration of Daksha’s yagna that Hari will not protect the ones who degrade Shiva. And vice versa.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey? Difficult to understand?

[Guest guest]

"Name and forms are Maya"

 

in the material world

 

"but the essence beneath is eternal"

 

in the spiritual realm there's no difference between surface and essence

[atanu 0]

Dear Guest,

 

Very true. In the spiritual world there is only one essence and nothing else.

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends

 

In the thread Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva, Raghuram ji has stated the following:

 

“Shiva's names may also belong to Bhagavan Vishnu, but I doubt girish in svetashvatara upanishad refers solely to Vishnu because Vishnu is lying on Ananta Deva while Shiva is in Kailash”

 

Shri Raghuramji, you have defeated yourself. Vishnu is eternal energy without requiring any support. Shiva is same. All Gods are this eternal subtle energy. The whole energy is Sada Shiva or Maha Vishnu or Brahman.

 

In your eagerness to prove that Vishnu is supreme, you have limited MahaVishnu, by showing him requiring support of Ananta Deva. Who is Ananta Deva, may I dare to ask? One who supports another must be greater than the one who is supported.

 

Let stop our attempts to prove who is greater. With our small ness can we judge the unlimited beings? It is puerile. Can a piece of sand of a mountain compare size of the mountains?

 

Actually Ananta Deva is Kala – time. Shiva transcends time:

 

namaste astu bhagavanh vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya

tripurAntakAya trikAgni-kAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya

nIlakaNThAya mrutyunjayAya sarveshvarAya

sadAshivAya shrImanmahAdevAya namaH || 2\.0||

 

If you stop your endeavor to prove superiority of one over another, you will realize that MahaVishnu is residing in your heart as atman – the energy also transcends time.

 

There is no point in trying to see as to who is greater. However, there is every reason for Bhaki to MahaVishnu. We are too small to understand his limits. He is limitless.

 

In a different thread, I learnt that Suta Goswamy, the parrot of Radharani is Shiva. It is such a beautiful knowledge. But the author of the thread claims superiority of Vishnu based on this evidence. There is nothing more puerile. We, equate strength with ability to subdue another through force or intellect. We tend to believe that the Bhaka is the subdued one and hence inferior to the deity. This happens due to overlapping of Ego on the Self – the egoless Atman. Which mother and father are not devotees of their children? Mother selflessly devotes all her energies towards the well being of the child. Does this make the child superior or the mother inferior?

 

I have been meditating for sometime now. Adjacent to my residence, there is a Lord Balaji temple, where the priest or someone used to play devotional songs from 5 AM and 6PM through loudspeaker. This used to create minor disturbances in my meditation. But, with the teaching of Shiva: learn to dissociate from the externalities. Do not react to objects in your externalities, with time the loud noise ceased to affect me at all. However, one day I visited the temple, as if led by Lord Shiva himself, and the songs through the loudspeaker stopped altogether.

 

Who will gauge the greatness of Lord Vishnu? Me? I am not that innocent as not to understand the greatness of the power that Lord Vishnu represents. He is compassion, and He is also auspicious. If Lord Shiva will not be Lord Vishnu’s devotee then whose devotee He can be? Similarly, you must know that Lord Vishnu also is a devotee of Lord Shiva.

 

Let us not judge who is greater. Both are unlimited and beyond our imagination. We may however tap the goodness through any name and form. If you are a true devotee, Lord Vishnu himself may take you to Lord Shiva, if required. Gods do not have ego and that is why they are Gods.

 

Atanu

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Very true. In the spiritual world there is only one essence and nothing else"

 

and this essence is form, shape, aspect, individuality, personality

 

so in spiritual world superficial is essential

[atanu 0]

Dear Guest

 

There are two states of truth: Avidya and Vidya -- both eternal. Manas when absorbed in the Self – Para Atman (the Self Realised state), has no other than the Self. There is no avidya; everything is known. There is no Vidya either since there is nothing to know. Avidya exists because of Vidya. It is like Joy and Sorrow being pairs. The Upanishads, Brahma Sutra of Badarayan that distills the essence of the Upanishads, and Devi Kallottara reveal this state of oneness. No action takes place. The Jiva becomes Sada Shiva or MahaVishnu or Brahman here. I repeat that when in oneness with Brahman there is no other thing except the Self which is Bliss and light, formless and without a beginning and an end. Depending on the predilection one may perceive forms.

 

But for the Manas, which desires to go out of the Self, possibly due to boredom with unbroken golden hue of oneness and due to inherent incipient desire to taste some variation, the universe of names and forms truly exists. The fountain head of knowledge for the externalized manas is Rig Veda and all other sciences etc. In this state Gods are names and forms, with need to make allies and with conflicting interests sometimes. This is the truth of this state. In this state, even the Gods are not beyond Karma.

 

 

Gita bridges the gap between these two states of Avidya and Vidya, by first introducing the knowledge of oneness and thereafter prescribing modes of conduct for the Avidya state.

 

Devas know about the oneness and the Vidya whereas Asuras in general are those who have forgotten the oneness. In the state of the externalized mind, Gods have to face the consequences of Karma, but due to their knowledge of the fundamental oneness, they are able to mitigate and invariably turn the results favourably. This is not true of the Asuras. But Asuras also, burning through the results of Karma eventually gain Vidya.

 

In the externalized state of manas, Shiva kills his son but then somehow gives his life back. He also cannot alter the destiny and protect Sati. Vishnu has to take birth and go through pangs of separation from his beloved. Krishna can only helplessly see Yadu race being ravaged and destroyed. Brahma cannot help but lust after his own creation and thus invite the wrath of Rudra, who in turn has to pay for the sin of tearing off a head of Brahma. These apparent animosities however do not take root with the Devas. All of them, being seeped in the Vidya of oneness, can overcome any difficulty that comes, by dissolving ego (that creates the Maya of separateness), then helping and seeking help from each other selflessly.

 

For those who have grounding in science, what is illustrated above will become clearer with the example of uncertainty principle, which states that: At any moment either the position or momentum of a body can be known accurately and it is never possible to know both position and momentum of a body at a particular moment. Heisenberg and Bohr held to this position. But Einstein maintained that “God does not play dice and there is only one truth and that truth is knowable eventually”.

 

Both the above positions are true and false. From the perspective of Avidya, uncertainty will reign supreme forever. But from the perspective of Vidya, the truth is eternally one.

 

Atanu

 

[Guest guest]

"But from the perspective of Vidya, the truth is eternally one."

 

yes.. that we are inconceivably simultaneously different and non different from the supreme lord, different in quantity and non different in quality

 

and that the absolute truth in his best and most complete expression is personal, spiritually personal, sat(eternal), cit(conscious), ananda(blissful)

 

and that we are not god... one if the demonstration is that we do not remember to be god.. got is CIT, eternally conscious

[Guest guest]

Difference is from your perspective who is bonded in a physical frame and a subtle mind.

 

From the perspective of God or one who perpetually abides in the Self, there is only one.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

In the thread Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva, Raghuram ji has stated the following:

 

“Shiva's names may also belong to Bhagavan Vishnu, but I doubt girish in svetashvatara upanishad refers solely to Vishnu because Vishnu is lying on Ananta Deva while Shiva is in Kailash”

 

Shri Raghuramji, you have defeated yourself. Vishnu is eternal energy without requiring any support. Shiva is same. All Gods are this eternal subtle energy. The whole energy is Sada Shiva or Maha Vishnu or Brahman.

 

 

Well for ne these are not my statements. I was busy all these days and am still. I will get back once I get time.

 

[Guest guest]

no shiva

no vishnu

everything false.

even if they exists they are stone hearted. they dont protect the devotees. all are myths.

no use in believeing them.

they are cruel.

its better to give up life rather than believing them.

 

 

[Guest guest]

krishna & rudra are cruel. they ahve no compassion. all they know is to say is karma , karma, karma , karma. by saying that they escape. no use in believing them.

 

even rayaru is false. its better to giveup life than believeing these cruel gods.

[Guest guest]

"Difference is from your perspective who is bonded in a physical frame and a subtle mind."

i can say the same thing for you that not conceiving a spiritual variety you believe in this dogmatic and undimonstrated concept

 

so open your mind and do not make sins and offences believing that all the god's activities (lilas) depicted in vedas and connected literature are illusory

 

"From the perspective of God or one who perpetually abides in the Self, there is only one. "

 

the spiritual perception cannot be worst than the material one.. so there's material variety and spiritual variety... otherwise where material variety comes from?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

you are mad... first encyclopedia, may discourses, messages, quarrelling, preaching and so on... now myths... bah!!

[Guest guest]

i am not mad. only god is mad. he doesnt want to help me.

 

[Guest guest]

why do you want to be helped by one you call mad? stop say stupid things, do not blasphemy

[Guest guest]

atanu@sancharnet.in

 

Will you you write an e mail to me please?

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest,

 

Please read the original piece. I said 2 sets of truth. One to the externalized mind attached to objects and another to the mind absorbed in the Self.

 

To the externalized mind, everything is true as concrete is. But, for a mind that perpetually can abide in the Self, the world vanishes.

 

Possibly, only, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Rama, Christ, Budha and few others abide in that state. For us the mortals, the Maya world is real like brick and mortar. But even then, you know that every external form has a beginning and an end and so is not eternal and therefore not God. The Lord is eternal.

 

Atanu

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

One to the externalized mind attached to objects and another to the mind absorbed in the Self.

•••the externalized mind is attached to material objects, the internalized one recognizes that the source of his existence is the more desiderable loving object.. bhagavan sri krishna

 

To the externalized mind, everything is true as concrete is. But, for a mind that perpetually can abide in the Self, the world vanishes.

••not vanishes.... the realized soul sees that the material world is illusory and see the spiritual world, vaikunta, that is spiritual (sat, cit, ananda) supremely various and really concrete.. because it is eternal, not mortal like the material one

 

Possibly, only, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Rama, Christ, Budha and few others abide in that state

••.the greatist majority of the living beings are in a realized state of life, they see the spiritual reality without illusion and live eternally in bliss in the spiritual world. A little minority like us is in the jail.. maya... we are envious of god, and god creates for us this world where maya hides the spiritual reality to give to us the freedom to life forgetting god

 

you know that every external form has a beginning and an end

•••this is the material world, but is anything exists in the matter, necessarily it exist in a perfect state (sat, eternal, cit, conscious, ananda, blissful) in the spiritual, absolute realm. So there's relative forms and absolute forms

 

therefore not God. The Lord is eternal.

•••yes.. ISVARA PARAMAH KRSNA (krishna is the supreme lord) SACCITANANDA VIGRAHA (with a form full of eternity, consciousness and bliss)

 

everything that exists in the mundane relative world, exists necessarily in the spiritual absolute one... becaus absolute cannot be lesser than the relative

 

[atanu 0]

Meditate. Meditate. Meditate.

 

The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is OM. This syllable OM is indeed Brahman. This syllable is the Highest. Whosoever knows this syllable obtains all that he desires. This is the best support; this is the highest support. Whosoever knows this support is adored in the world of Brahma.

-- Katha Upanishad I, ii, 15-17

 

The sound OM is Brahman. The rishis and sages practiced austerity to realize that Sound-Brahman. After attaining perfection one hears the sound of this eternal Word rising spontaneously from the navel. "'What will you gain', some sages ask, 'by merely hearing this sound?' You hear the roar of the ocean from a distance. By following the roar you can reach the ocean. As long as there is the roar, there must also be the ocean. By following the trail of OM you attain Brahman, of which the Word is the symbol. That Brahman has been described by the Vedas as the ultimate goal."

-- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

 

(To Mahima) "You explain 'Aum' with reference to 'a', 'u', and 'm' only."

Mahima: "'A', 'u', and 'm' mean creation, preservation, and destruction."

Master: "But I give the illustration of the sound of a gong: 'tom', t-o-m. It is the merging of the Lila in the Nitya: the gross, the subtle, and the causal merge in the Great Cause; waking, dream, and deep sleep merge in Turiya. The striking of the gong is like the falling of a heavy weight into a big ocean. Waves begin to rise: the Relative rises from the Absolute; the causal, subtle, and gross bodies appear out of the Great Cause; from Turiya emerge the states of deep sleep, dream, and waking. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. From the Absolute to the Relative, and from the Relative to the Absolute. Therefore I give the illustration of the gong's sound, 'tom'. I have clearly perceived all these things. It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again."

-- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

 

"The sandhya merges in the Gayatri, the Gayatri in Om, and Om in samadhi. It is like the sound of a bell: t-a-m. The yogi, by following in the trail of the sound Om, gradually merges himself in the Supreme Brahman."

-- The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

 

[Guest guest]

philosophy is meditation, it is offering our minds at the service of god

 

when anyone preaches or speak about spiritual subjects he's in constrant meditation, like arjuna is in meditation when, ordered by sri krishna, is killing millions of people in kuruksetra

 

if you think that philosophy is a waste of time, be the first to stop to show your theories, philosophies.... i am not disturbed by you, but if you think that philosophy is bad, stop to show your one and be silent..... be coherent

[Guest guest]

Oh Yes, I agree, you have a point.

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

You are a wave of the ocean. Though you think you are a wave, ocean thinks you the ocean.

 

You are a song of the ocean. You think you are singing yourself. But the Lord is singing you.

 

Book 10 HYMN CXIV. Visvedevas.

 

1. Two perfect springs of heat pervade the Threefold, and come for their delight is Matarisvan.

Craving the milk of heaven the Gods are present: well do they know the praisesong and the Saman.

2 The priests beard far away, as they are ordered, serve the three Nirrtis, for well they know them.

Sages have traced the cause that first produced them, dwelling in distant and mysterious chambers.

3 The Youthful One, well-shaped, with four locks braided, brightened with oil, puts on the ordinances.

Two Birds of mighty power are seated near her, there where the Deities receive their portion.

4 One of these Birds hath passed into the sea of air: thence he looks round and views this universal world.

With simple heart I have beheld him from anear: his Mother kisses him and he returns her kiss.

5 Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures.

While they at sacrifices fix the metres, they measure out twelve chalices of Soma.

6 While they arrange the four and six-and-thirty, and duly order, up to twelve, the measures,

Having disposed the sacrifice thoughtful sages send the Car forward with the Rc and Saman.

7 The Chariot's majesties are fourteen others: seven sages lead it onward with their Voices.

Who will declare to us the ford Apnana, the path whereby they drink first draughts of Soma?

8 The fifteen lauds are in a thousand places that is as vast as heaven and earth in measure.

A thousand spots contain the mighty thousand. Vak spreadeth forth as far as Prayer extendeth.

9 What sage hath learned the metres' application? Who hath gained Vak, the spirit's aim and object?

Which ministering priest is called eighth Hero? Who then hath tracked the two Bay Steeds of Indra?

10 Yoked to his chariot-pole there stood the Coursers: they only travel round earth's farthest limits.

These, when their driver in his home is settled, receive the allotted meed of their exertion.

 

 

Read the whole but read the following specially:

 

5 Him with fair wings though only One in nature, wise singers shape, with songs, in many figures.

 

Atanu