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Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva

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All dear believers

 

I have come to love the fight among the faithful adherents of different gods. No doubt what happens happens with His will. Salvation, for many will come through such intense devotional fight. Out of intense love for Vasudeva or Siva or Shakti or Ganapati or Skanda, some may not be able to sleep and may prepare arguments staying awake. There is intense feeling because each one loves god in his own way and god cannot but reward such devotion. I know this truth because I have seen light of the path.

 

If a Vaishnavaite feels that Vishnu is the supreme God, Vishnu indeed is. Vishnu carries such a devotee lovingly to salvation and only after attaining salvation one will know the truth. The same applies to Saivaites.

 

Devotion is required to gain attention of Vishnu. On salvation, the image that a vaishnavaite has of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods will clear away to show one resplendent god which encompasses all Adityas and Rudras. My vaishnav friends will tell “Yes, the one resplendent being is Vishnu and none else”. True. But will it matter if someone else calls that being as Devi or Siva or Tao? What is there in a name, except the meaning associated with the sound?

 

The image of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods, if true, makes Vishnu very weak. Despite his lordship, the Christ appears to rule the world and Uma-Mahesvar appears to rule India. Even prophet Muhammad will beat both Siva and Vishnu. Do you want to say that Vishnu is so weak that he cannot resist the domination of Christ? Whatever we see: emergence of a leader; an event; a person; a concept – vidya or avidya; a vice; a virtue, all emanate from the Supreme Being -- Maha Vishnu only. However, some people call him Prophet Muhammad. And some people call it Tao.

 

Repeated and vehement reference to Vedas will not help. Both Rudra and Vishnu appear as minor gods in Rig Veda. Indra is the chief. That is just for appearance. God himself has written Vedas, so will he write to glorify himself? Only men who have not seen god glorify themselves. God works silently without claiming any fame. Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer. Despite glorious tribute to several deities Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

In Rig Veda, Vishnu who pervades everything is just an Aditya (out of 12 Adityas)– a reference to all pervading divine light. Rudra, on the other hand is not part of anything but is a class in himself and his quality is that he is undefeatable. Rig Veda does not clarify the role of Rudra further except that is the only undefeatable God. He is also father of Maruts who assist Indra to rule. Yajur Veda however begins to clarify that Rudra wields the divine light as Vishnu shastra and similarly he also wields Vayu and also Indra etc. In Shree Rudram, Rudra is shown as Indra and Aditya. Rudra is also called as Vishnu who pervades everything. Dear friends may please confirm the last sloka in the Rudram.

 

In Upanishads the status of Brahman is given to Uma-Mahadeva who appears in the beginning and at the end. What remains after dissolution to start another cycle is param Brahman and no icon suits this knowledge better than the image of dancing Nataraja. These images are created by the Lord himself and so they last. But again, name and forms are not important but the underlying principle and meanings are. Narayana also appears as Purusha who is an integral part of Brahman. Sesha only gets to see the dissolution when Vishnu goes to yoga nidra.

 

I will not mention Tantras, but even in Bhagavatam: Shiva consumes the poison. Who but the greatest bears the heaviest load? Who but the greatest sacrifices the most?

 

To say that only the slokas dealing with Vishnu were written by svattwic people or the Lord himself while Shree Rudram or Svetaavatara Upanishad were written by tamasic mortal men will be wrong. The Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer.

 

What I have attempted is to bring out the meanings and not to lower any image. The Vedas state Supreme god -- param Braham to be Naryana. But Vedas also state that Rudra is param Brahman. Understand the meaning friends. Param Brahman is the underlying non-dual truth. Sages who abide in God continuously: Trailanga Nath, Ramakrishna, Maharshi Ramana state so.

 

I remember a sweet smiling Vasudeva as the supreme god – the param Brahman, the same as Shiva. The beauty of Vasudeva brings tears to my eyes, invoking the spirit of pure goodness. But for me, when I face a higher problem associated with a vice, I cannot help but remember the supreme yogi yet bhogi, immobile yet the rhythm itself, fierce yet calm, inauspicious yet supremely auspicious Shiva who invokes the meaning of an ever constant and ever present Lord, who controls everything – the vice and virtue both. Undoubtedly, for many people Vishnu evokes the same.

 

Shiva tells his lovers: Apparent decay and destruction need not be feared. The seed dies to live as a plant; the passions and sensuous thoughts of man must die to live as a conscious entity in Eternity. Once this is recognized, all destruction is seen not merely as inevitable, but as beautiful, for it reveals the sacrificial aspect of life, unconscious in the lower kingdoms, to be consciously recognized and used by the human being.

 

During the Vigil Night of Shiva, Mahashivaratri, we are brought to the moment of interval between destruction and regeneration; it symbolizes the night when we must contemplate on that which watches the growth out of the decay. We have to look behind and before (with Shiva in our heart), to see what evil needs eradicating from our heart, what growth of virtue we need to encourage. Such a dark night of the soul comes to all of us; it is a time when desolation lies before and behind us, and in the burning-ground of the heart there seems no life. No one escapes this dark night. Even the Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. To keep before us the memory of Shiva's dance will save us from despair and give us the courage to pass on.

 

Friends, when any one of you has to face such a dark night of soul when all seems lost, you feel choked and death seems the only escape, then Shiva will appear to carry you along and He will caringly impart knowledge to you. Such nights are not welcome nights, if unaided by Shiva.

 

The image of trinity is also given by the gods, to reveal to us the truth in stages. Please do not comment that the trinity is tamasic as someone has commented about Mahabharata. To claim that god only does this and not that is to limit God. Maha Vishnu will not like that since he has stated in Gita that everything is Him and He alone is the doer. Shiva tells the same thing to Devi in Devikalottara.

 

I conclude that finally everyone will know that Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva. Sincere devotion to any God will take one to the One Resplendent Being. That only is important.

My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me (as Rudra does to destroy Tripura). However, I have requested Vasudeva to protect me and I know that he will.

 

By the way Param Brahman is not Brahma as Mr. Gokul seems to believe. But Brahma is Param Brahman. Can you understand this?

 

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why you left Lord Brahma in the scene ? Also add him so you can be exposed as more secular.

 

haha.

 

 

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"My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me"

 

a real vaishnava is humble, he does not curse anyone only because he has different opinion... and if he does it he's not a real one and krishna gives no help to support his desires and actions

 

(even if i do not agree with you that ultimately all is the same and it is only up to personal feeling)

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Visit my other threads also.

 

"Lord Venkateswara - Lord of the Universe".

 

There you will see whos creating problem , whether me or other sects ?

 

Without knowing about me fully, you cant judge me.

 

Excuss me i worship even Allah & Jesus as much as i worship "Santhana Dharma" Gods. But still i surrender to Lord Krishna alone.

 

This i have stated in may threads. Without knowing my true nature dont expose your ignorance baby.

 

We dont hurl any astras to you. Since we dont cling on tridents or third eyes. we cling only on lotus feet of Krishna.

 

First expose yourself who you are ? No one is secular here. Everyone is personally attached with some sampradaya or deity. You words prove that you are not a vaishnava , just coming here to debate or irritate us.

 

Are you thinking that Lord krishna will support you, just because you irritate devotees like me.

 

Very ignorant you are. Dont expose your ignorance too much.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

 

 

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<---

Repeated and vehement reference to Vedas will not help. Both Rudra and Vishnu appear as minor gods in Rig Veda

--->

 

If someone quotes stanzas from vedas, why does it bother you ? ok we worship "Vishnu" alone. does it bother you ?

 

If it doesnt bother you, then why you quoted my name explicitly baby.

 

I will tell even Lord Brahma is equal to Shiva.

 

does it bother you ? if it bothers you then dont expose yourselves as secular. okee..

 

If my words bother you, then you are just a fanatic guy wearing a secular mask.

 

I am posting this just because you pointed to me.

 

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Dear Gokul,

 

No irritation at all. I myself said that Brahma is Param Brahman

 

Atanu

 

To all other vaishnav friends

Irritaion word has cropped up, which i never used. Who is irritated?

 

 

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<< My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me (as Rudra does to destroy Tripura). However, I have requested Vasudeva to protect me and I know that he will.

>>

 

dear atanu,

only an a-vaishnava can get angry at you.

and if he does, vhsnu will get angry.

 

in the brahma samhita (see below link)

brahma ji has aid that

just as mink and yougurt are same and different,

vishnu and siva are same and different.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/brahma-samhita1.htm

 

 

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I think Atanu has brought up a good topic. The expressions of the Ultimate we have are worshipped by many. To argue which expression is greater is not the point. The point is to understand the significance of each expression. Though no expression can be the Truth, it is truth in practicality. It is a stepping stone to the Ultimate. No convention will be the Truth. The Truth is beyond concepts and philosophy, and thought. Even my attempt to bring this notion to light fails for it is a vague and dim shadow in the light of the ultimate Sath. However, it may expose one to the idea that there is no structure that will capture the Truth. The least of all any human language written or spoken. But it is the closest we have as beings in this existence. And these structures point towards the direction of the Truth. Do no mistake the sign for the Truth, for the Truth itself. There will come a time when one will have grown beyond all scripture. Then one will see that even scripture will not even hold any meaning in the light of Truth. Krishna has even said this in the Gita. One may hold a certain expression of the Ultimate as the Truth, and that is one's freedom to do so. But do not suppress the freedom of others to do the same thing. It is the journey of all to find Truth. All paths that follow sanatana dharma are to the Ultimate, whether it be Veda, Gita, or otherwise.

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yes dravidian aarya,

i hold the same view.

 

the other point is,

 

over milleniuns, we hindus always have

all kinds of yogis

who do have realized god by their chosen paths.

 

so, this is a proof, by direct experience,

that all the vedic paths are true.

 

to say - just for the same of agrument-

that we do not know the truth and the vedas may not be telling the truth, is thus is not telling the truth.

such message would not be taken by non hindus as our humbleness, but as an oppertunity/argument to say islam is also as good as vaishnavism. islam also is a true religion.

this also could delude some hindus as well.

we need to tell -as the aachryas have said that the vedas is telling the truth. if we do not understand something, then it is our fault, not of the vedas. a right guru can certainly explain the truth of the vedas.

 

hinduim is a matter of direct experience.

one practicing a yoga alone - without any guru as a giude,

has less chance of reaching the truth - god.

 

guru - self realized - is needed

becaue just as you said, words have limitation.

no language is fully able to transfer a an intended thought to every brain totally. this also needs, not only the mercy of a guru, but god as well.

 

so, the bottom line is:

 

to say to another man "your path is wrong",

is wrong and rude.

we hindus never do it, never should do it.

 

"your path, and your god" is the language and attitude of islam and xians, not ours.

 

 

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Dear Dravidian,

 

You have expressed it short and succint. Images are limited by our our capabilties. But definitely the Lord wills those images. All that gets done gets done by Him alone.

 

At satchinanad domain there is no name and form. There is only one.

 

Atanu

 

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Dear Friends,

 

Raghuraman has written extensive and logical reply to the main theme "Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva" in a different thread. He has cited many slokas. He has also asked for proof from me about Vedas claiming Shiva as Param Brahman.

 

I will request him to read Rudram please.

 

Moreover, in reply to my comment that the real hero of Rig Veda is Indra and not Rudra or Vishnu, he has stated that quality is important and not quantity. I accept it.

 

I request Raghuraman to consider the following from Rig Veda.

 

Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

God is one eternal thing -- unchanging, without beginning and end. Will He change if I call Him by a name that suits my temperament.

 

Dear Raghu you are a portion of Krishna truly and that part of you is not going to die ever. Will that part change, when in your next incarnation your name is Madhav?

 

Ponder over it please. If you accept even a small part of what i say i will be happy.

 

Atanu

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Dear Atanu,

 

Raghuramanji has quoted the verses from Rig veda in the following thread -> "Vedas prove supremacy of Vishnu"

 

so you can post your above message in this thread -> "Vedas prove supremacy of Vishnu" so that Raghuramanji can see it & reply to it.

 

I dont think Raghuramanji will come into this thread & reply to you.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif JAI SHRI NARASIMHA

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Dear Madhav,

 

Lord is eternal and unchanging. Your simile that Shiva and Vishnu are as same and different as milk and yoghurt is good but goes against the nature of God. If God changes, then he is limited and has a beginning and end.

 

To me a better simile is: they are like night and day, part of a same 24 hour day but appear opposite due to nature of time.

 

Or like different states of water:liquid, vapour, and solid.

 

You may disagree. But the truth is that we love the same Lord.

 

Atanu

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JALE VISHNU,STHALE VISHNU, STHAVARA JANGAMAM VISHNU,SARVAM VISHNU MAYAM JAGATH.

If vishnu can be everything he can be shiva,parvathi adn indira.

 

If what prahalad said was true "he is in every single pillar and dust", he can be in shiva and parvathi also.

 

Krishna is called as "engum nirai parabhrammam" (parabhrammam that is everywere).

 

He is shiva,shiva is he.He is you,he is me.he is all.

 

om shri lakhsmi narasimha parabhrammane namaha

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From the Kaivalyopanishad, which is listed among the 108 upanishads in Muktika Upanishad

 

7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

 

8. He is Brahma, He is Shiva, He is Indra, He is the Immutable, the Supreme, the Self-luminous, He alone is Vishnu, He is Prana, He is Time and Fire, He is the Moon

 

 

From Rudra Hridaya Upanishad:

 

Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself

 

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Hare Krishna,

 

Where is the proof that Muktiko Upanishad, kaivalya or Rudra hridaya Upanishad are authentic Upanishads. These are later day Upanishads.

 

Why I ask these questions is because, these upanishads are blatantly in contradiction to Veda Samhitas.

 

For example how do you explain Rig Veda 7:40:5 which says that Lord Rudra gaines his powers by worshipping Lord Visnu.

 

How do you explain Devi Sukta of Rig Veda which explains that Devi or Abbrani makes whom she likes as Ugra(Lord Shiva), BrahmA(Chaturmukha BrahmA) etc.

 

How do you explain Vayu Sukta which says that Lord Vayu made the poison digestable for Lord Rudra during churning of Samudra.

 

Why is it mentioned in Vedas different entities with gradation and Lord Rudra provided a position below even Lord Vayu.

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Dear Raghuramanji,

 

Atman is asking you to read rudram. Please the post pasted by Atanu directed by you (in this thread)

 

 

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sorry i made many spelling mistakes in my above post.

 

Heres corrected one :

 

Raghuramanji,

 

atanuji is asking you to read Rudram. pls read the post pasted by atanu in this thread.

 

 

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Dear Visitor,

 

You have brought out absolutely truth. When it comes to Shiva, the source becomes Tamasic or later day or something.

 

What about Svetavatara Upanishad is that also fake? Raghuramanji?

 

Raghuramanji has conveniently avoiding commenting on: Rig Veda's “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

He also think the whole Namakam-Chamakam is fake. Is it so?

What about, Vayu, Indra, and Agni not being able to do their respective jobs on a piece of straw that Shiva asked them to burn? What about the fact that Devi herself chose Shiva as her beloved? To make him a servant?

 

If Vayu helped Shiva to digest poison then it is also in Shiva's power that he can any power to rid the world of its ills. Consuming the poison is the greatest act. Bhagavatam is also not true? The world goes on through the power of such sacrifices.

 

Please don't belittle one God to elevate another. You do it out og ego and not out of true Self Realisation or real devotion to Vishnu.

 

Shiva worships Devi and Vishnu. Vishnu also worships Shiva. They complement each other and not oppose each other. They are best of friends. For ensuring sagety of Uma-Maheswar Vishnu is known to have sacrificed on numerous occassion. Shiva has done the same.

 

 

Thank you.

 

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Dear Gokul,

 

I thank you for your spelling mistake.

 

Is not your goal also to realise oneness with your Atman that is Vishnu verily.

 

Your innonence will take you to the goal faster than many of us.

 

Atanu

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Guestji,

 

Raghuramanji would have decided to avoid debate/arguement . i think so. if hes not intrested dont pull him.

 

Otherwise raghuramanji would be busy in some important tasks.

 

forgive me if i sound harsh.

 

may Krishna keep all of us happy.

 

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Dear Atanuji,

 

lets all concentrate on God krishna (if you call god by someother name its ok) and achieve moksha.

 

u pray for me. i will pray for u.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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Vanakkam Maadhav,

 

you make an important point. I did not intend to make it seem as if the wisedom and paths of the Rishis of the past are not true. They indeed are paths to the Ultimate. But they still are in the realm of convention when they try to communicate such paths to us. I believe that the various paths of the wise souls of the Vedas lead to the ultimate, but they seem various and divergent only at the conventional level. I think there comes a point when all the paths collapse into the one and the same as they approach their Ultimate end. And this portion of the

path(s) is ineffable and beyond expression....it can only be experienced. And so we have myriads of paths, to the One. The One we call so many different names in different forms. This is the beauty of the Vedic tradition. It has the ability to relate to any one of us, because God is an inclusive God not an exclusive God. All is Brahmam, All is Vishnu, All is Siva, All is Shakti. All is All. Beyond time, space, thought, language, and even imagination. Manifest and Unmanifest all is One. For all those who argue the pettiness of God supriority, you miss this point. Chant the name of whomever you please, but do not advertise and market your God, this is not becoming of virtue. I mean no offense to my brothers and sisters, I am just sharing my thoughts which I hope will help.

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