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Vedas prove supremacy of Lord Visnu

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Hare Krishna,

 

Please refrain from making general statements on Vedas or Hinduism or opinions on scriptures etc.

 

Please refrain from attacking people and any community.

 

Let us engage in rational arguments without emotion.

 

Here are some verses as quoted by Gokul proving supremacy of Lord Visnu. Whether this is out of context or whatever, one needs to provide rational reason for or against it.

 

Stetement: Vedas prove supremacy of Lord Visnu and verses are provided below.

 

idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam

samULhamasya pAMsure || RV 1.22.17 ||

 

trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH

ato dharmANi dhArayan || RV 1.22.18 ||

 

tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH

divIva cakSurAtatam || RV 1.22.20 ||

 

tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate

viSNoryat paramaM padam || RV 1.22.21 ||

 

viSNornu kaM vIryANi pra vocaM yaH pArthivAni vimamerajAMsi

yo askabhAyaduttaraM sadhasthaM vicakramANastredhorugAyaH || RV 1.154.1 ||

 

pra tad viSNu stavate vIryeNa mRgo na bhImaH kucaro giriSThAH

yasyoruSu triSu vikramaNeSvadhikSiyanti bhuvanAni vishvA || RV 1.152.2 ||

 

pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe

ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH || RV 1.154.3 ||

 

yasya trii puurNaa madhunaa padaanyakShiiyamaaNaa svadhayaa madanti ya u tridhaatu pR^ithiviim uta dyaam eko daadhaara bhuvanaani vishvaa || RV 1.154.4 ||

 

tA vaM vAstUnyushmasi gamadhyai yatra gAvo bhUrishRN^gAayAsaH

atrAha tadurugAyasya vRSNaH paramaM padamava bhAti bhUri || RV 1.154.6 ||

 

agnirvai devAnamavamo viShNuH paramaH || aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1.1 ||

 

aniravamo devatAnAM viShNuH paramaH || taittirIya saMhitA 5.5.1 ||

 

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH

vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat || RV 7.40.5 ||

 

Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda which says that Lord Vayu powdered the Visha, most hard to break, churned out of the ocean and gave it to Lord Shiva and drank it along with Him

 

Devi or Ambrani Sukta of Rig Veda says that Devi makes whom she wants as Brahma, Ugra, a Rsi or a wise man.

 

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Hare Krishna,

 

Rig Veda 10:136:7

 

vAyurasmA upAmanthat pinaSTi smA kunannamA

keshIviSasya pAtreNa yad rudreNApibat saha

 

Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,

When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, poison from the cup.

 

The following verse says that Lord Vayu made the poison digestible for Lord Shiva(as Lord Shiva cannot digest the poison Himself) and drank it along with Lord Shiva.

 

This verse shows that Lord vayu is more stronger and powerful Devata than Lord Shiva. Again what Sruti says is final.

 

Incidentally AchArya Madhva(who claims to be the avatar of Lord Vayu) also says that Lord Brahma(who is equal to Lord Vayu) is superior to Lord Shiva.

 

He also says that present Lord Vayu becomes Lord Brahma in the next creation while lord Rudra becomes Lord Sesha.

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Hare Krishna,

 

Rig veda: 10:125 Devi or Ambrani Sukta

 

1.

 

ahaM rudrebhirvasubhishcarAmyahamAdityairutavishvadevaiH

ahaM mitrAvaruNobhA bibharmyahamindrAgnIahamashvinobhA

 

I TRAVEL with the Rudras and the Vasus, with the Adityas and All-Gods I wander.

I hold aloft both Varuna and Mitra, Indra and Agni, and the Pair of Asvins.

 

2

 

ahaM somamAhanasaM bibharmyahaM tvaSTAramutapUSaNaM bhagam

ahaM dadhAmi draviNaM haviSmatesuprAvye yajamAnAya sunvate

 

I cherish and sustain high-swelling Soma, and Tvastar I support, Pusan, and Bhaga.

I load with wealth the zealous sdcrificer who pours the juice and offers his oblation

 

 

3

 

ahaM rASTrI saMgamanI vasUnAM cikituSI prathamAyajñiyAnAm

tAM mA devA vyadadhuH purutrAbhUristhAtrAM bhUryAveshayantIm

 

I am the Queen, the gatherer-up of treasures, most thoughtful, first of those who merit worship.

Thus Gods have stablished me in many places with many homes to enter and abide in.

 

 

4

 

mayA so annamatti yo vipashyati yaH prANiti ya IMshRNotyuktam

amantavo mAM ta upa kSiyanti shrudhishruta shraddhivaM te vadAmi

 

Through me alone all eat the food that feeds them,-each man who sees, brewhes, hears the word outspoken

They know it not, but yet they dwell beside me. Hear, one and all, the truth as I declare it.

 

 

5

 

ahameva svayamidaM vadAmi juSTaM devebhirutamAnuSebhiH

yaM kAmaye taM--tamugraM kRNomi tambrahmANaM taM RSiM taM sumedhAm

 

1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome.

I make the man I love Ugra(Rudra), make him a sage, a Rsi, and BrahmA.

 

6

 

ahaM rudrAya dhanurA tanomi brahmadviSe sharave hantavAu

ahaM janAya samadaM kRNomyahaM dyAvApRthivI Avivesha

 

I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion.

I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven.

 

 

7

 

ahaM suve pitaramasya mUrdhan mama yonirapsvantaH samudre

tato vi tiSThe bhuvanAnu vishvotAmUM dyAMvarSmaNopa spRshAmi

 

 

On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean.

Thence I extend o'er all existing creatures, and touch even yonder heaven with my forehead.

 

 

8

 

ahameva vAta iva pra vAmyArabhamANA bhuvanAni vishvA

paro divA para enA pRthivyaitAvatI mahinA saM babhUva

 

I breathe a strong breath like the wind and tempest, the while I hold together all existence.

Beyond this wide earth and beyond the heavens I have become so mighty in my grandeur.

 

 

Verse 5 and 6 make it clear that Lord Rudra is lower in position to this Goddess. This Goddess makes whom she likes as Lord Rudra. This verse supports the point what madhvacharya has given that present Lord Shiva occupies a higher position whle some other devata becomes Lord shiva.

 

Verse 7 makes it clear that the home of the Goddess is in the oceans. This is reference to vaikunta and so this Goddess is maha lakshmi.

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Hare Krishna,

 

I will post on Visvakarma sukta later. This is just to show those Hindus who think that Vaishnavas are dogmatic. We do not force anybody to agree with us, but can you advaitists provide a good alternate explanation for the verses quoted.

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Notes:

 

The previous Rik (1.8) described Rudra as the deity in the sun. Here He is being identified with indra and parjanya. The idea is that the same deity assumes different forms.

 

Those who are wise do not see different deities or a hierarchy of deities wherein some deities are superior to others. Acknowledging such a hierarchy is tantamount to accepting divisions in the indivisible (akhaNDa) Brahman. This is a trick of mAyA, as the mAyApanchaka of Shankara states:

 

vidhihariharavibhedamapyakhaNDe bata virachayya budhAnapi prakAmam.h |

bhramayati hariharabhedabhAvA- naghaTitaghaTanApaTIyasI mAyA ||

 

Alas! Even in the indivisible Brahman, it (mAyA) creates differences called BrahmA, ViShNu, and Shiva and deludes or tricks exceedingly even the intelligent into feeling differences of Hari and Hara. mAyA is an expert in making incompatible things compatible!

 

So the proper position is to view all deities as equivalent and thus avoid the pitfall created by mAyA. There cannot be a multiplicity of Ishvara's. Ishvara is unique:

 

This is clearly expressed in the shvetAshvatara upaniShad

 

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

 

Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity).

 

|| AUM namo bhagavate rudrAya ||

 

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Mandukiya Upanishad says "Hari is everything & everyother are his forms".

 

Bhagavath Gita "There is none superior to me(krishna)."

 

Svetaavatara Upanshiad says "Rudra is everything".

 

Lord Ramanuja says " Narayana is everything".

Lord Basvacharya says "Shiva is everything".

 

So ultimately it is parabrahma that is everything.

 

From yyour quote yourself it is clear we should worship Lord Brahma also.

 

Everything is a form of "Parabrahma" only. If you tell like this no one will debate. Instead you quote only from "Svetaavatara" Upanishad & "Advaitham" which makes only vaishavas to irritate. First realize mistake on your side man. u are extending this debate instead of stopping it. i dont think you are secular.hmmm. funny.

 

May prabrahma give you good path.

 

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"So the proper position is to view all deities as equivalent and thus avoid the pitfall created by mAyA"

••this is an interpretation, licit interpretation but on a plane different from this discussion.

Who's discussing on these differences starts from a different conception that personality is the source of oneness and that one of these personalities (vishnu, krishna, shiva or whatever) is the source of the existence of the other ones. So this is another discussion that you have to do separately.. for example i do not think that personality is illusory and i do not think that all personalities are equal.. so i watch with interest the discussion on who is the ultimate reality, source of al sources, if krishna, vishnu or shiva.. maybe i think that it would be useless if people with a very gross concept of divinity were partecipating, a christian, a muslim or a buddhist maybe does not need at the very start to know all these things that for him are useless subtleties..

 

"There cannot be a multiplicity of Ishvara's. Ishvara is unique"

••yes.. this is another your conception.. everyone agrees that ishvara is unique, but many think that one is the source, the adi purusham, and others are manifestations, ishvaras deriving their existence from a parameshvara.

 

So you have to do another discussion, obviously if you are recognized right, every discrimination turns to be useless, maya.. for now i do not agree with you, personality and variety is the source of the oneness

 

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"Instead you quote only from "Svetaavatara" Upanishad & "Advaitham" which makes only vaishavas to irritate."

 

vaishnava do not irritate with svetasvatara upanishad and advaitam, we simply, reading all the scriptures together, consider that, when they say that shiva is supreme or saguna brahman is supreme, they have a purpose relative to a particular circumstance or for the training of people who need to see divinity in that way to advance in their path of consciousness

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prabhuji, paranam

 

i know that since i am like you only. i think u understand wat i am saying.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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Variety is the beauty of Hinduism and no one is compeled to follow a particular form of worship. Hinduism is such that it makes it a personal attachment to your ishta deva be it Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Rudhra, Sakthi, Durga, Amman, Ganapathy or Murugan. They are all the forms of one Supreme Power we call God. So, why create segregation among devotees. I have seen during Thaipusam for Lord Murugan followers of HK, Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Ramalingam, Sri Ragavebdra and many other denomination are there to spread their faith in their Guru and they are not forbidden by Muraga devotees or the organising commitee. Hinduism is such we accomodate every sect that believe in the Supreme Being as all forms are HIS and HIS alone. We only despice those who say only through their God one can attain moksha or Paradise. This one track mind and only leads to fanatism.

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You are speaking right. But some people wont understand we people say.

 

Its best to be in our path rather than convincing them.

 

Am i right ?

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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Dear Raghuraman,

 

Theres no need to quote stanzas from vedas. We know that why "advaitham" has been given by "Lord Adi shankara".

 

i think u get it wat i am saying.

 

So it is best to leave the people as they are. But someone approaches us for guidance, at that time we can quote the stanzas.

 

Lets indulge in sathsang (ie., chanting).

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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"Hinduism is such we accomodate every sect that believe in the Supreme Being as all forms are HIS and HIS alone"

•••and this is another theory, not a conciliation.. and i do not accept it.. not because i am sectarian, but because in some of the forms i recognise god, in other his subordinates. Your attempt to unify by force or showing it as a more peaceful and tolerant way of thinking is not at all tolerant and peaceful.

 

There's a fanaticism of who wants to convert everyone to his way of thinking and another fanaticism who wants to nullify differences.. and it is another way of thinking"

 

please think well about it.. do not be sectarian.. the forceful elimination of the sects is another sect.

 

and if hinduism is the sect of the obligatory "no difference".... no problem i leave it all to you

 

"I have seen during Thaipusam for Lord Murugan followers of HK, Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Ramalingam, Sri Ragavebdra and many other denomination are there to spread their faith in their Guru and they are not forbidden by Muraga devotees or the organising commitee"

•••yes.. tolerance... but they are going on worshipping mainly their lord Murugan and it is right

 

barney.. i do not need to have the same your idea to appreciate you, i speak with you with great pleasure... but you seem to believe that others are mad and sectarian if they think not to be equal to anyone.. and this is not right

 

"We only despice those who say only through their God one can attain moksha or Paradise"

••and this is intolerant.. if you despice.. it is not a subject that you can depice or not, if you think that all is the same, it is a theory followed by many big philosophers, so do not impose it... demonstrate

 

demonstrate logically and philosophically that krsna and siva are the same and demonstrate that they are ultimately originated by brahman

 

in this way is good.. if you want to give this idea without philosophy it is a sectarian faith exactly like the ones that you call sectarian

 

"This one track mind and only leads to fanatism"

•••for now you had a sectarian behaviour wanting to impose and make people believe to this idea without giving any philosophical, scriptural and logic reason

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Prabhuji, Pranam

 

I agree wat u say about "barney". But he seems to be narrow minded. So its better to leave him as he is rather than asking him to demonstrate.

 

If he is thinking that he is secular than others. let him think like that. just because hes thinking like that wont bother people like us.

 

Lets join in sathsang rather than convincing them.

 

I am trying hard from past 2 days to convert this forum into sathsang forum rather than debate forum.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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"I agree wat u say about "barney". But he seems to be narrow minded."

 

do not say like that, if we are in this material world it is because we are so narrow minded to not see the beauty and bliss of vaikunta and we have stupidly choosen to come here struggling and suffering

 

if there's discussion, loyal discussion from any point of view this is in itself a sat sanga, harinama samkirtana

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<<---

if there's discussion, loyal discussion from any point of view this is in itself a sat sanga, harinama samkirtana

--->>>

 

yes but people like barney & others dont seem to give respect to vaishnavas who expose the truth. he always pricks us by telling vaishnavas like me are secretarial/fanataic/fool/half-knowleged etc... We too have some self-respect. I am not so benovelent as Jesus or Lord Ramanuja to accept whatever that come/said to me. So i decided to keep away from such persons.

 

Moreover sathsang means "discussing with sathvics" not with "rajasics/tamasics". so i had decided to discuss only with sathvics so that it will be a real sathsang.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri krishna

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Hare Krishna,

 

 

The previous Rik (1.8) described Rudra as the deity in the sun. Here He is being identified with indra and parjanya. The idea is that the same deity assumes different forms.

 

 

How is that ? Please explain more. Do not give your opinions. Demonstrate with specific verses.

 

 

Those who are wise do not see different deities or a hierarchy of deities wherein some deities are superior to others. Acknowledging such a hierarchy is tantamount to accepting divisions in the indivisible (akhaNDa) Brahman. This is a trick of mAyA, as the mAyApanchaka of Shankara states:

 

vidhihariharavibhedamapyakhaNDe bata virachayya budhAnapi prakAmam.h |

bhramayati hariharabhedabhAvA- naghaTitaghaTanApaTIyasI mAyA ||

 

 

So for example, in Taittiriya Samhita where it says that "Agni is the lowest Devata and Visnu is the highest" is wrong. How do you explain this gradation so explicitly mentioned in the Sruti.

 

 

Alas! Even in the indivisible Brahman, it (mAyA) creates differences called BrahmA, ViShNu, and Shiva and deludes or tricks exceedingly even the intelligent into feeling differences of Hari and Hara. mAyA is an expert in making incompatible things compatible!

 

 

So Shiva, Visnu and BrahmA are illusion. So Vedas which talk about so many Devatas are all illusion. So Vedas teach illusion. Is this your position ?

 

 

So the proper position is to view all deities as equivalent and thus avoid the pitfall created by mAyA. There cannot be a multiplicity of Ishvara's. Ishvara is unique:

 

 

This is your opinion. Demonstrate your point with verses from Vedas.

 

and where did I say that Brahman is divided into two or three. I simply said that Lord Rudra is not Brahman and pointed you to Rig Veda 7:40:5 where it shows that Lord Rudra gained HIS powers by worshipping Lord VISNU. I never said Lord VISNU(Brahman) is divided into two separate beings.

 

Lord Shiva is not Brahman period.

 

 

This is clearly expressed in the shvetAshvatara upaniShad

 

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

 

Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity).

 

|| AUM namo bhagavate rudrAya ||

 

 

 

Here Rudra can refer to only Lord Visnu. If it does not then it contradicts verses like Devi Sukta and Rig Veda 7:40:5

 

It is also explicitly mentioned in Visvakarma Sukta that all names actually belong to Lord Visnu only.

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Hare Krishna,

 

 

Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 81

 

1.

 

ya imA vishvA bhuvanAni juhvad RSirhotA nyasIdatpitA naH

sa AshiSA draviNamichamAnaH prathamachadavarAnA vivesha

 

HE who sate down as Hotar-priest, the Rsi, our Father, offering up all things existing,-

He, seeking through his wish a great possession, came among men on earth as archetypal.

 

2

 

kiM svidAsIdadhiSThanamArambhaNaM katamat svitkathAsIt

yato bhUmiM janayan vishvakarma vi dyAmaurNon mahinA vishvacakSAH

 

What was the place whereon he took his station? What was it that supported him? How was it?

Whence Visvakarman, seeing all, producing the earth, with mighty power disclosed the heavens.

 

3

 

vishvatashcakSuruta vishvatomukho vishvatobAhurutavishvataspAt

saM bAhubhyAM dhamati saM patatrairdyAvAbhUmI janayan deva ekaH

 

He who hath eyes on all sides round about him, a mouth on all sides, arms and feet on all sides,

He, the Sole God, producing earth and heaven, weldeth them, with his arms as wings, together.

 

4

 

kiM svid vanaM ka u sa vRkSa Asa yato dyAvApRthivIniSTatakSuH

manISiNo manasA pRchatedu tad yadadhyatiSThad bhuvanAni dhArayan

 

What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it, from which they fashioned out the earth and heaven?

Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon he stood when he established all things.

 

5

 

yA te dhAmAni paramANi yAvamA yA madhyamAvishvakarmannutemA

shikSA sakhibhyo haviSi svadhAvaHsvayaM yajasva tanvaM vRdhAnaH

 

Nine highest, lowest, sacrificial natures, and these thy mid-most here, O Visvakarman,

Teach thou thy friends at sacrifice, O Blessed, and come thyself, exalted, to our worship.

 

6

 

vishvakarman haviSA vAvRdhAnaH svayaM yajasva pRthivImuta dyAm

muhyantvanye abhito janAsa ihAsmAkaM maghavAsUrirastu

 

Bring thou thyself, exalted with oblation, O Visvakarman, Earth and Heaven to worship.

Let other men around us live in folly here let us have a rich and liberal patron.

 

7

 

vAcas patiM vishvakarmANamUtaye manojuvaM vAje adyAhuvema

sa no vishvAni havanAni joSad vishvashambhUravasesAdhukarmA

 

Let us invoke to-day, to aid our labour, the Lord of Speech, the thought-swift Visvakarman.

May he hear kindly all our invocations who gives all bliss for aid, whose works are righteous.

 

Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 82

 

1.

 

cakSuSaH pitA manasA hi dhIro ghRtamene ajanannannamAne

yadedantA adadRhanta pUrva AdiddyAvApRthivI aprathetAm

 

THE Father of the eye, the Wise in spirit, created both these worlds submerged in fatness.

Then when the eastern ends were firmly fastened, the heavens and the earth were far extended.

 

2

 

vishvakarmA vimanA Ad vihAyA dhAtA vidhAtA paramotasandRk

teSAmiSTAni samiSA madanti yatrAsaptaRSIn para ekamAhuH

 

Mighty in mind and power is Visvakarman, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence.

Their offerings joy in rich juice where they value One, only One, beyond the Seven Rsis.

 

3

 

yo naH pitA janitA yo vidhAtA dhAmAni veda bhuvanAnivishvA

yo devAnAM nAmadhA eka eva taM samprashnambhuvanA yantyanyA

 

Father who made us, he who, as Disposer, knoweth all races and all things existing,

Even he alone, the Deities' narne-giver,him other beings seek for information.

 

4

 

ta Ayajanta draviNaM samasmA RSayaH pUrve jaritAro nabhUnA

asUrte sUrte rajasi niSatte ye bhUtAnisamakRNvannimAni

 

To him in sacrifice they offered treasures,-Rsis of old, in numerous troops, as singers,

Who, in the distant, near, and lower region, made ready all these things that have existence.

 

5

 

paro divA para enA pRthivyA paro devebhirasurairyadasti

kaM svid garbhaM prathamaM dadhra Apo yatra devAHsamapashyanta vishve

 

That which is earlier than this earth and heaven, before the Asuras and Gods had being,-

What was the germ primeval which the waters received where all the Gods were seen together?

 

6

 

tamid garbhaM prathamaM dadhra Apo yatra devAHsamagachanta vishve

ajasya nAbhAvadhyekamarpitaMyasmin vishvAni bhuvanAni tasthuH

 

The waters, they received that germ primeval wherein the Gods were gathefed all together.

It rested set upon the Unborn's navel, that One wherein abide all things existing.

 

7

 

na taM vidAtha ya imA jajAnAyad yuSmAkamantarambabhUva

nIhAreNa prAvRtA jalpyA cAsutRpa ukthashAsashcaranti

 

Ye will not find him who produced these creatures: another thing hath risen up among you.

Enwrapt in misty cloud, with lips that stammer, hymn-chanters wander and are discontented.

 

If one reads completely verses from 10:81 and 10:82, it is clear that the Supreme GOD(Brahman) is the SUBJECT of these verses. If one reads 10:82:3, it is clear that the verse explicitly states that THIS Supreme GOD gives the positions and names for all the Devatas. It can also mean that all these names actually beong to Supreme GOD.

 

If you read verse 10:82:6 it cleaarly mentions that all creation rested upon UNBORN'S navel. This is again unmistakable reference to LORD VISNU.

 

Again refer to the 10:82:5 where it refers to Devas and asuras as other than Brahman. This verse clearly states that Devas are not Brahman and it clearly contradicts Advaita point of view.

 

What can advaitists say about this verse ?

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All dear believers

 

I have come to love the fight among the faithful adherents of different gods. No doubt what happens happens with His will. Salvation, for many will come through such intense devotional fight. Out of intense love for Vasudeva or Siva or Shakti or Ganapati or Skanda, some may not be able to sleep and may prepare arguments staying awake. There is intense feeling because each one loves god in his own way and god cannot but reward such devotion. I know this truth because I have seen light of the path.

 

If a Vaishnavaite feels that Vishnu is the supreme God, Vishnu indeed is. Vishnu carries such a devotee lovingly to salvation and only after attaining salvation one will know the truth. The same applies to Saivaites.

 

Devotion is required to gain attention of Vishnu. On salvation, the image that a vaishnavaite has of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods will clear away to show one resplendent god which encompasses all Adityas and Rudras. My vaishnav friends will tell “Yes, the one resplendent being is Vishnu and none else”. True. But will it matter if someone else calls that being as Devi or Siva or Tao? What is there in a name, except the meaning associated with the sound?

 

The image of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods, if true, makes Vishnu very weak. Despite his lordship, the Christ appears to rule the world and Uma-Mahesvar appears to rule India. Even prophet Muhammad will beat both Siva and Vishnu. Do you want to say that Vishnu is so weak that he cannot resist the domination of Christ? Whatever we see: emergence of a leader; an event; a person; a concept – vidya or avidya; a vice; a virtue, all emanate from the Supreme Being -- Maha Vishnu only. However, some people call him Prophet Muhammad. And some people call it Tao.

 

Repeated and vehement reference to Vedas will not help. Both Rudra and Vishnu appear as minor gods in Rig Veda. Indra is the chief. That is just for appearance. God himself has written Vedas, so will he write to glorify himself? Only men who have not seen god glorify themselves. God works silently without claiming any fame. Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer. Despite glorious tribute to several deities Rig Veda succintly claims “ekam satviprah bahudha vadanti” (The truth is One, sages call it by various names, 1.164.46).

 

In Rig Veda, Vishnu who pervades everything is just an Aditya (out of 12 Adityas)– a reference to all pervading divine light. Rudra, on the other hand is not part of anything but is a class in himself and his quality is that he is undefeatable. Rig Veda does not clarify the role of Rudra further except that is the only undefeatable God. He is also father of Maruts who assist Indra to rule. Yajur Veda however begins to clarify that Rudra wields the divine light as Vishnu shastra and similarly he also wields Vayu and also Indra etc. In Shree Rudram, Rudra is shown as Indra and Aditya. Rudra is also called as Vishnu who pervades everything. Dear friends may please confirm the last sloka in the Rudram.

 

In Upanishads the status of Brahman is given to Uma-Mahadeva who appears in the beginning and at the end. What remains after dissolution to start another cycle is param Brahman and no icon suits this knowledge better than the image of dancing Nataraja. These images are created by the Lord himself and so they last. But again, name and forms are not important but the underlying principle and meanings are. Narayana also appears as Purusha who is an integral part of Brahman. Sesha only gets to see the dissolution when Vishnu goes to yoga nidra.

 

I will not mention Tantras, but even in Bhagavatam: Shiva consumes the poison. Who but the greatest bears the heaviest load? Who but the greatest sacrifices the most?

 

To say that only the slokas dealing with Vishnu were written by svattwic people or the Lord himself while Shree Rudram or Svetaavatara Upanishad were written by tamasic mortal men will be wrong. The Gita clarifies that only the Lord is the doer.

 

What I have attempted is to bring out the meanings and not to lower any image. The Vedas state Supreme god -- param Braham to be Naryana. But Vedas also state that Rudra is param Brahman. Understand the meaning friends. Param Brahman is the underlying non-dual truth. Sages who abide in God continuously: Trailanga Nath, Ramakrishna, Maharshi Ramana state so.

 

I remember a sweet smiling Vasudeva as the supreme god – the param Brahman, the same as Shiva. The beauty of Vasudeva brings tears to my eyes, invoking the spirit of pure goodness. But for me, when I face a higher problem associated with a vice, I cannot help but remember the supreme yogi yet bhogi, immobile yet the rhythm itself, fierce yet calm, inauspicious yet supremely auspicious Shiva who invokes the meaning of an ever constant and ever present Lord, who controls everything – the vice and virtue both. Undoubtedly, for many people Vishnu evokes the same.

 

Shiva tells his lovers: Apparent decay and destruction need not be feared. The seed dies to live as a plant; the passions and sensuous thoughts of man must die to live as a conscious entity in Eternity. Once this is recognized, all destruction is seen not merely as inevitable, but as beautiful, for it reveals the sacrificial aspect of life, unconscious in the lower kingdoms, to be consciously recognized and used by the human being.

 

During the Vigil Night of Shiva, Mahashivaratri, we are brought to the moment of interval between destruction and regeneration; it symbolizes the night when we must contemplate on that which watches the growth out of the decay. We have to look behind and before (with Shiva in our heart), to see what evil needs eradicating from our heart, what growth of virtue we need to encourage. Such a dark night of the soul comes to all of us; it is a time when desolation lies before and behind us, and in the burning-ground of the heart there seems no life. No one escapes this dark night. Even the Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. To keep before us the memory of Shiva's dance will save us from despair and give us the courage to pass on.

 

Friends, when any one of you has to face such a dark night of soul when all seems lost, you feel choked and death seems the only escape, then Shiva will appear to carry you along and He will caringly impart knowledge to you. Such nights are not welcome nights, if unaided by Shiva.

 

The image of trinity is also given by the gods, to reveal to us the truth in stages. Please do not comment that the trinity is tamasic as someone has commented about Mahabharata. To claim that god only does this and not that is to limit God. Maha Vishnu will not like that since he has stated in Gita that everything is Him and He alone is the doer. Shiva tells the same thing to Devi in Devikalottara.

 

I conclude that finally everyone will know that Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva. Sincere devotion to any God will take one to the One Resplendent Being. That only is important.

My dear Vaishnav friends may now hurl many Vishnu ashtra at me (as Rudra does to destroy Tripura). However, I have requested Vasudeva to protect me and I know that he will.

 

By the way Param Brahman is not Brahma as Mr. Gokul seems to believe. But Brahma is Param Brahman. Can you understand this?

 

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as a practising gaudya vaishnava (in the sense that i am not at all realized.. only practising) i'd not find useless these discussions if they were conducted without such hate and defeating spirit.

 

In my opinion, seeing vedic culture as a whole, clearly emerges that krsna is the supreme even if sometimes, for teching different religious practices to people who has "mixed" requests to transcendence (= mixed with material desires) some devatas, shiva, vishnu, avataras, the impersonal brahman and mahajanas take the part of supreme for a particular tasks (yamadutas knows that yamaraja is the supreme lord, in the famous ajamila's story they are surprised when vishnudutas say that he's a servant of sri vishnu)

 

but if, for making an otherwise saint and trancendental discussion we end quarrelling like this, better to stick on the idea that there's something "more" beyond the matter than going in subtleties and offend shiva, vishnu, vaushnavas, shaivites, brahman and param brahman only to push our false egos

 

but if we avoid offences and overheating this discussion is saint because it makes us read, write and remember many pastimes of the supreme personality of godhead and saint devatas and mahatmas

 

so, in my opinion, let us change the spirit or let us stop the subject

 

jaya sri krishna, jaya sri shiva

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Dear Raghuraman,

 

See what you have done ? you have created a scene such that making socalled "other" sects as secular and vaishnavas as "someone sticking to one deity".

 

So its better to keep away from such people. I already requested you twice to not to quote stanzas from vedas that invite debate.

 

If anyone offences "Supremacy of Lord Vishnu" or "any vaishnava sampradaya or scholar" you should take the responsibility.

 

I am sure someone will be coming here taking stories from their "upanishads" & "puranas" to debate with u.

 

so it wont end. So lets stop inviting debate with other sects.

 

It is better to leave the people as they are.

 

If you are really want to chant glories of "Lord Narayana" then come to my sathsang thread.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri krishna

 

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Hare Krishna,

 

There is a difference between rational argument and emotional outbursts. In the begining I requested everybody to refrain from using personal opinions and to only refer to Sruti verses for your stance.

 

Unfortunately nobody followed this rule. I am going to stick to my rule here.

 

Dear Atanu,

 

It is a good article with a lot of pesonal opinions. I want to stick to some Sruti verses you refered here.

 

 

 

On salvation, the image that a vaishnavaite has of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods will clear away to show one resplendent god which encompasses all Adityas and Rudras. My vaishnav friends will tell “Yes, the one resplendent being is Vishnu and none else”. True. But will it matter if someone else calls that being as Devi or Siva or Tao? What is there in a name, except the meaning associated with the sound?

 

 

 

Vaishnavas know atleast intellectually that Lord Visnu is all pervading, immanent and transcendant at the same time. As for 1000 names of Lord, all names belong to HIM prmarily. The quetion here is other Devatas like Lord Shiva should not be thought to be equal to LORD VISNU. That is whu so many verses from Vedas were quoted. But you choose to deny it.

 

 

The image of Maha Vishnu sitting on a throne and guiding the work of other gods, if true, makes Vishnu very weak.

 

 

 

This is in your mind and not in my mind.

 

 

Despite his lordship, the Christ appears to rule the world and Uma-Mahesvar appears to rule India. Even prophet Muhammad will beat both Siva and Vishnu. Do you want to say that Vishnu is so weak that he cannot resist the domination of Christ? Whatever we see: emergence of a leader; an event; a person; a concept – vidya or avidya; a vice; a virtue, all emanate from the Supreme Being -- Maha Vishnu only. However, some people call him Prophet Muhammad. And some people call it Tao.

 

 

 

Whatever hapeens, happens according to HIS(Lord VISNU) will. He is antaryami. To think that Vasudeva is not in control is AVIDYA.

 

To equate other human beings with LORD VISNU is AVIDYA.

 

To equate other Devatas with LORD VISNU is avidya.

 

 

Repeated and vehement reference to Vedas will not help.

 

 

 

The very topic of this post is that Vedas prove supremacy of Lord Visnu. Persoal beliefs are not valid.

 

 

Both Rudra and Vishnu appear as minor gods in Rig Veda. Indra is the chief. That is just for appearance.

 

 

 

This is just erroneous. One cannot learn from statistics what Vedas teach.

 

 

In Rig Veda, Vishnu who pervades everything is just an Aditya (out of 12 Adityas)– a reference to all pervading divine light.

 

 

 

Only the Supreme GOD pervades everything. Lord Visnu is mentioned with reference to HIS Vamana avatar. It does not meean HE becomes less important.

 

 

Yajur Veda however begins to clarify that Rudra wields the divine light as Vishnu shastra and similarly he also wields Vayu and also Indra etc. In Shree Rudram, Rudra is shown as Indra and Aditya.

 

 

 

Reference please.

 

 

Rudra is also called as Vishnu who pervades everything. Dear friends may please confirm the last sloka in the Rudram.

 

 

 

There is no such Sruti and so invalid opinions of individual.

 

 

n Upanishads the status of Brahman is given to Uma-Mahadeva who appears in the beginning and at the end.

 

 

 

The status of Lord Rudra is clear from 7:40:5, Devi Sukta and Vayu Sukta. There are so many false upanishads. Nobody even knows the numbers. We know the Veda Samhitas were nt interpolated and based on Samhitas, upanishads like Kaivalya Upanishad can be ssafely rejected.

 

 

will not mention Tantras, but even in Bhagavatam: Shiva consumes the poison. Who but the greatest bears the heaviest load? Who but the greatest sacrifices the most?

 

 

 

This is wrong again. The verse from Vayu Sukta makes it clear that it is Lord Vayu who reduced the potency of Visha and gave it to Lord Shiva.

 

 

But Vedas also state that Rudra is param Brahman.

 

 

 

There is no such Sruti. Please provide reference from Vedas ie Samhitas in particular.

 

Repeating personal opinions again and again does not make it true.

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Hare Krishna,

 

Even if your opponent argues by using words that attack you personally we should stick to pure logic based n Vedas. If somebody views myargument as an attack on his personal belief and starts abusing I can't be held reponsible. So let us stick to logic here and prove the position of Vaishnavas.

 

We are also seeing symptoms of denial here from advaitists here. They keep repeating their personal opinons again and again inspite of so many verses from Vedas that show Lord Visnu's supremacy.

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Ok go ahead my friend.

 

May blessing of "Sri Madhvacharya" with u. Be victorious always.

 

I will watch it as a mute spectator.

 

May Lord hari keep you happy.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif JAI SHRI NARASIMHA.

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Prabhuji,

 

If you are intrested please welcome to my "Sathsang thread- glory of lord narayana".

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

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