Madhav, here's a bhakta un-interested in "indian culture"

[Guest guest]

Madhavji goes to great lengths to point out the similarities between hinduism and so called "hare krishnas". And I agree with most of his points. However, I feel that bhakti has some things in common with the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The main similarity is ek-nishtata, or one pointed focus on only one God. Frankly, I feel more comfortable in a masjid (mosque) or a synagogue where the focus is on only one Supreme Divinity then I do in a hindu mandir where many murtis of various Devas/Devis are. That is just my feeling.

I think this is also the reason why it was very easy for western jews and christians to take to Vaisnavism exclusively, because they already had the concept of ONE GOD in their minds and hearts. Whereas in India I have seen that it is very difficult for "hindus" coming to bhakti to take Durga Devi (or any other devata) off of their main alter and put only Radha Krishna there. Even after coming to bhakti many of them still want to equate the various Devis/Devas with the Supreme Moiety Sri Sri Radha Krishna or their united form as Mahaprabhu. This is just an observation, many hindus may not fit into this category I know. Also, as far as adopting Indian culture, I don't know any western bhakta who wants to adopt cultural traits such as living with parents after reaching adulthood. Ask any western bhakta if she or he would like to live with her parents after marriage and what will the answer be? Ask any western bhakta if she or he wants their parents or anyone else to "arrange" their marriage. Do you think they will say "yes"? Ask any western vaisnava parents if they want their grown sons to live with them in adulthood. The parents themselves will say no. They are looking forward to doing more bhajan in their old age and being free from family duties. Ask any western married lady vaisnava if she would be willing to live with her in laws.... NO WAY! It is not in the culture to do so, it seems very strange. But it is in Indian culture and to Indians it is normal. Just because a westerner adopts vaisnavism does not mean they want to adopt "indianism". As far as Hindu Nationalism, most western bhaktas would rather stay in their own countries and cultures than move to India and support the government or political movements over there. And Madhav, if u are so concerned about Indian women having to wear burqas if the muslims "take over"... why don't u first do something about the Hindu brahmin women in North India who wear the pallaus of their saris over their faces like veils when they go out in public? Some of them even cover their faces when their fathers in law come into their presence. I like your suggestion that such veils should be removed by force. In fact I did that once in Uttar Pradesh. One hindu lady was coming towards me with that silly veil over her face and I pulled it up and the shopkeepers gasped in shock. So if you plan on doing same thing with muslims ladies, first do it to the hindus. It looks even more stupid when they wear it since it is not at all required by their religion but is just another superstitious north indian backwards "custom".

Think about these things the next time you assume that "indian culture" is something desirable to western vaisnavas just because they worship Krishna.

JAI SRI RADHE!

 

 

[Guest guest]

a vaishnava is a varnasrami, ideally.

so he/she would strive per vernasrma system, i assume.

however, hinduism is not rigid, so practice as you like.

no problem.

 

below are some more responses:

 

<< Madhavji goes to great lengths to point out the similarities between hinduism and so called "hare krishnas". And I agree with most of his points. >>

 

Good! please share it with othres.

 

<< However, I feel that bhakti has some things in common with the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The main similarity is ek-nishtata, or one pointed focus on only one God. >>

 

hinduism (gita/krishna) says there is only one god,but there are many devas and devis. it is best to worship krishna, but krishna does not forbid one in worshipping andy deva devi. in contrast he makes one's faith firm in

one's sadhana.

 

<< Frankly, I feel more comfortable in a masjid (mosque) >>

 

enen when they talk about jihad against kafirs (including you)? hindus do not talk such thing in temples. there are no kafirs or pagans inhinduism. is it not different than others?

 

<<.. a hindu mandir where many murtis of various Devas/Devis are. >>

 

if krishna is everywhere, why can't you see krishna in deva/devi moortis? some temple sare of one deva/devi, and others are for all kinds of hindus. is not not nice that they all can be happy with each other?

 

<<I think this is also the reason why it was very easy for western jews and christians to take to Vaisnavism exclusively, because they already had the concept of ONE GOD in their minds and hearts. >>

 

sure, but they cannot deny the existance of devas/devis and their worshippers who do have freedom to worship as they choose. if krishna does not hate them, so Hk;s should npot hate them either.

 

<< Whereas in India I have seen that it is very difficult for "hindus" coming to bhakti to take Durga Devi (or any other devata) off of their main alter and put only Radha Krishna there. >>

 

They erspect Krishna, as well as other deva/devi.

 

<< Even after coming to bhakti many of them still want to equate the various Devis/Devas with the Supreme Moiety Sri Sri Radha Krishna or their united form as Mahaprabhu. >>

 

some are in ignorance. we cannot make them smart by hating them and fighting with them. note that they will not enforce their views on others.

 

<< as far as adopting Indian culture, I don't know any western bhakta who wants to adopt cultural traits such as ..>>

 

hindus have no problem with it.

 

<< Just because a westerner adopts vaisnavism does not mean they want to adopt "indianism". >>

 

hindus have no problem with it.

"indianism" has no specific meaning; hinduism has.

 

<< As far as Hindu Nationalism, most western bhaktas would rather stay in their own countries and cultures than move to India and support the government or political movements over there. >>

 

hindus do not expect all Hk's to move to india. if they move, hindus won't mind. but as i explained it would not be nice to hurt them by telling they (Hk's) are not hindus.

a krishna bhakta cannot be classified as a non hindu.

any HK anywhere is able to understand the problems of the hindus caused by the muslims. what a hindu expects from another hindu is to understand it and have moral support, if not material.

 

<< And Madhav, if u are so concerned about Indian women having to wear burqas if the muslims "take over"...>>

 

my concern is the forcible invasion if islam in india.

because islam is uncompatible with hinduism

it should be moved out from the hindu country - india.

 

<< why don't u first do something about the Hindu brahmin women in North India who wear the pallaus of their saris over their faces like veils when they go out in public? >>

 

dharm does not enforce it. it is a social thing.

they are free to wear it or not wear it.

this is not so for a muslims women and burkha.

in the time of terrorism, burkha is muslims' excuse for transporting illegal things and persons 9 males under burkhsa). so, for security reason, burkhas should not be allowed anywhere except in muslim countries.

 

<< I like your suggestion that such veils should be removed by force. >>

 

for security reason, yes.

another reason is that a hindu country does not require burkha.

 

<< In fact I did that once in Uttar Pradesh. One hindu lady was coming towards me with that silly veil over her face and I pulled it up and the shopkeepers gasped in shock. >>

 

even in the west no one woud do anything like it.

 

<< So if you plan on doing same thing with muslims ladies, first do it to the hindus. It looks even more stupid when they wear it since it is not at all required by their religion but is just another superstitious north indian backwards "custom". >>

 

no, just a socal custom of their choice.

there are no guards to enforce it.

 

<< Think about these things the next time you assume that "indian culture" is something desirable to western vaisnavas just because they worship Krishna. >>

 

i do not remember sayig so.

 

hinduism is mother of vaishnavism.

mother needs to be respected.

hating mother is no good.

 

<< JAI SRI RADHE! >>

 

jai sri radhe! -madhav

 

[yasodanandana 0]

"Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The main similarity is ek-nishtata, or one pointed focus on only one God"

•••••yes , but there's something important missing.. these concepts of One God are mostly impersonal, so they're not complete like the krsna bhakti

 

" then I do in a hindu mandir where many murtis of various Devas/Devis are"

•••••i all the cristian churches there's the image of christ and in some altars aside the image of saints or mother mary who help to obtain love for christ...

 

"Whereas in India I have seen that it is very difficult for "hindus" coming to bhakti to take Durga Devi (or any other devata) off of their main alter and put only Radha Krishna there"

•••••no, i do not see it, you cannot worship krsna because you are muslim and you not bear the "idols", or you cannot worship krsna because you as a kind of hindu believe that all deities are the same...... maya is very strong and clever and is effective all over the world (the ting is not to stop loving durga devi, the thing is to ask durga devi the love for god and not to bother her for money, good husbands and so on!!)

 

"Just because a westerner adopts vaisnavism does not mean they want to adopt "indianism"

••••of course, we have to adopt what is said by acharyas and spiritual master... not other things, there's not even discussion!!

 

"As far as Hindu Nationalism"

•••yes, why to support?, a bhakta does not support USA nationalism, Uganda nationalism, Russian nationalism and so on... have i support something blindly because there's written INDIA? i do not think so!!

 

" So if you plan on doing same thing with muslims ladies, first do it to the hindus. It looks even more stupid when they wear it since it is not at all required by their religion but is just another superstitious north indian backwards "custom"."

•••is this a big problem? let us preach krsna consciousness.. and if you are a western mataji who think that it is strange to cover your face, do not cover... is this the source of your doubt about "indianizing" yourself?

vaishnavism is to chant hare krishna, to surrender to a bona fide/pure devotee vaishnava spiritual master, to study vaishnava books and to respect the 4 regulative principles.... the other "indian" things are marginal details. (also for indian devotees... that are no more indians.. they are vaishnavas!!)

 

So do not worry /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[yasodanandana 0]

to madhav:

a krishna bhakta cannot be classified as a non hindu.

••••it depends on how you use this world, i read books and worship god in a way practiced by many classified as hindus, so in this way i can be an hindu, but i am not impersonalist or a believer that krsna is another deva like many people classified as hindus believe. In the same way i can say that in some sense i am christian, in others not

 

"any HK anywhere is able to understand the problems of the hindus caused by the muslims"

••••i understand and i am sorry because so many people are doing wars using god as a weapon, but i do not think that there's a faction completely dharmic and another adharmic... so i do not identify, and no vaishnava authority tells me to identify myself with one of the two faction. We will have a Rama temple in ayodya or not, but now the situation has nothing to do with spirituality.... in my opinion better to build the temple some km away and stop the violence

[yasodanandana 0]

for the devas/krishna subject i'd say that it is an offence to think that krsna bhagavan is one of the many devas, but it is also a misconception to think to an ALONE GOD in the heaven without a world, a reign, an entourage, servants, helpers, ministers, friends and so on

[M_Mehdi 0]

i feel the biggest misconception is that we lil humans think/act we know everything.... even about God...

 

the ideas and problems to getting to know God i'm pretty sure we'll find out once we all leave our physical bodies... and thus it becomes a form of conversation which rounds and rounds and goes no where ... while we are here in our bodies... because as much as one can truely and sincerly feel one way... there will always be another human who will truely and sincerly feel another...

 

in the part of this board titled 'letters to editor' i find this:

 

God is described as "asamaurdhva" which means "none equal and none above".

 

isn't this enough? ... lets move on... there is nothing to see here... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

this is why it is said that the biggest spiritual crime (or sin if you wish) is to utter a lie about God...

 

however... it is useful to use our spiritual learnings... to better our human society...

 

you know.. one way or another calm the hearts of the fanatics... which ever flag they choose to wave...

 

but this takes the letting go of pride... culture... class... all things which seperate us...

 

peace...

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Yashodananaji -

I noticed when u qouted me as such .... " then I do in a hindu mandir where many murtis of various Devas/Devis are"

•••••i all the cristian churches there's the image of christ and in some altars aside the image of saints or mother mary who help to obtain love for christ........... you conveniently left out the part where I said I feel more comfortable in a mosque or synagogue.... I specificially left out church for this very reason - Catholic churches have images in them. However, most other Christian churches do not, in fact, some christian sects are totally AGAINST having any images (even paintings) of Jesus or anybody else in them. But because in India many of the churches are catholic and DO have images, I left out church from my equation. But you automatically assumed I would prefer a church. Actually between the 3 Abrahamic religions, which are Judaism (the oldest), Christianity (the next one) and Islam (the latest), I have more interest in and attraction for Islam than the other 2.

Anyway, that is beside the point and just a personal thing. But next time, don't quote me out of context. I choose my words carefully and know EXACTLY what I'm saying.

As far as worshipping devis/devatas, faith is a matter of personal choice and I don't begrudge anyone that. I was simply pointing out that I have seen many Indians with a hindu background having a very difficult time coming to one pointed Krishna bhakti. Even after they take diksa in vaisnava sampradaya, still some of them want to put Durga Devi or others on the same alter as Radha Krishna. They will not consent to putting her on a separate alter or lower alter. Now tell me, in the kunj where Radha and Krishna are doing their Nitya Vilas... can Durga Devi gain entrance there? Does even Laxmi Devi have the adhikar? Sri Narsingadeva? What about Yashoda mata and Nanda Baba? Will Kishori Kishor feel free to engage in madhur pastimes in front of them? These are all points of rasa siddhanta. And one who is desiring a very personal and bhavuk relationship with the Divine Couple will consider these things very deeply. Bhakti is not a pot of Kitchri in which you can mix up dahl, rice and vegetables at same time.

 

Madhavji-

There is no place in India where wearing burkha is required by law and there are no police or government officials to enforce that so there is no need to worry. In Saudi Arabia, they have the mattwe to enforce it by law, but you are not living in Saudi so that is not your concern. In India it is still just a custom that some muslim women adhere to, just like some hindu brahmin women are foolish enough to pull their sarrees over their faces like a veil.

Neither customs are enforced by law in India so CHILL OUT YAAR!

[yasodanandana 0]

"i feel the biggest misconception is that we lil humans think/act we know everything.... even about God..."

•••••naaah... religion is a science, and as other sciences if we are honest, we can recognize if we are simply doing useless speculations or a serious study under a pure and saint spiritual master

 

"he ideas and problems to getting to know God i'm pretty sure we'll find out once we all leave our physical bodies"

••••the limitations of being humans can be overcome if we absorb in the spiritual practice and in the spiritual association.. so we can see something or everything also there... why not?

 

"and thus it becomes a form of conversation which rounds and rounds and goes no where"

•••not for everyone and not with everyone!!

 

"because as much as one can truely and sincerly feel one way... there will always be another human who will truely and sincerly feel another... "

••••because we have to learn that spirituality is variety, and also we have to learn that spirituality is a science not a feeling, if you sincerely think that the earth is a cube it is not so important, let us discover what is the real shape of the earth!

 

"because as much as one can truely and sincerly feel one way... there will always be another human who will truely and sincerly feel another... "

••••oh, it is only the beginning.. for example we can study the personality of this ONE GOD studying srimad bhagavatam and reading of sri krsna the supreme personality of godhead..

 

"this is why it is said that the biggest spiritual crime (or sin if you wish) is to utter a lie about God..."

••••yes, let us avoid the lies but welcome the truth!!!

 

"you know.. one way or another calm the hearts of the fanatics... which ever flag they choose to wave... "

•••i cannot avoid to say some things f to study something because some fanatics will use the difference to hurt some one.. fanaticism is possible from any source.... also "THERE'S NOTHING TO LEARN, ALL IS USELESS SPECULATION, WE WILL UNDERSTAND LATER" is an imposition, a sectarism and fanaticism

 

so misconception is bad, conception is good, very good

[yasodanandana 0]

"you conveniently left out the part where I said I feel more comfortable in a mosque or synagogue... But because in India many of the churches are catholic and DO have images, I left out church from my equation"

••••oh.. i am very sorry for my mistake.. i have no interest in win a debate with you or to mispresent your messages, so, please believe that i have simply made a mistake..

said this.. there's some sincere reasons to have adversions for religious images, they comes for previous conditionaments, wrong traditions and also from wrong and speculated images.. but if we examine the matter, if we have an image, god also has to have an image because he's greater than us...

 

so If we examine carefully the religions who says that god has not an image, it is easy to understand that they say that god has not a MATERIAL, HUMAN, CORRUPTIBLE, MORTAL image.. and they are right..

 

said this, from vedas, we can understand that beyond this there's the concept of a SPIRITUAL IMAGE and PERSONALITY

 

–––––––––––––––

"They will not consent to putting her on a separate alter or lower alter. Now tell me, in the kunj where Radha and Krishna are doing their Nitya Vilas... can Durga Devi gain entrance there? Does even Laxmi Devi have the adhikar? Sri Narsingadeva? What about Yashoda mata and Nanda Baba? "

•••••i understand exactly this problem, but i have to answer as i have already done, maya is great and she finds anything to make us less attached to krishna.. so i can easily believe that a neophite coming from the background you have depicted could have these misconceptions... but it appears to me not so strange, every neophite has problems and all problems are leading to impersonalism: "Krsna is one of many gods" is impersonal because it negates the unicity and exclusivity of the bhagavan's personality.. "krsna is god, in an empty paradise, without face, without entourage and friends, relationating with humans only as a father" is also impersonalism because takes out qualities from the personality of godhead..

 

maya.. very powerful for indians, italians, muslims, hebrews etc.. i am not a fanatic of india and indians, even if i like them with all my heart.. but i simply do not find that indians, coming from any religious background, have more difficulty to accept devotion than others.. i have my maya, you have your maya, they have their maya

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Even after they take diksa in vaisnava sampradaya, still some of them want to put Durga Devi or others on the same alter as Radha Krishna. They will not consent to putting her on a separate alter or lower alter. Now tell me, in the kunj where Radha and Krishna are doing their Nitya Vilas... can Durga Devi gain entrance there? Does even Laxmi Devi have the adhikar? Sri Narsingadeva

 

 

Hello One pointed,

 

This is a dangerous misunderstanding among HKs.

 

Neither did Srila Prabhupada teach like the way you understood.

 

There is no difference in the different avatars of GOD. All avatars of GOD are IDENTICAL. Tis includes Srila Vyasa Deva, Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Lord NaraSimha and hie SELF SAME avatars. To consider them different is against VEDIC scriptures and blasphemy. Lord Narayana does not lose his SATCHITANANDA Rupam at any time.

 

Next Laxmi Devi is a special Jiva who has no equal among other Jivas. She was, is, and will be eternally free unlike other Jivas. Radha is same as Laxmi Devi only forms are different.

 

Just like Visnu tattvas are not lower than Lord Krishna or higher(such thought is offensive in Gaudiya philosophy), so is Radha and Laxmi Devi Identical.

 

Remember the Sruti

 

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate

Om santih santih santih

[yasodanandana 0]

"This is a dangerous misunderstanding among HKs.

Neither did Srila Prabhupada teach like the way you understood.

There is no difference in the different avatars of GOD. All avatars of GOD are IDENTICAL."

••••this is definitely a mistake... identical is a word non existing in tha spiritual world, krsna is krsna, balaram is balaram, narasimha is narasimha and so on.

1st of all i do not see in all the gaudya maths(ISKCON included) any avversion for any avatara, for us ramachandra is very dear, we say the last prayer of the day to narasimhadeva etc... so i do not know where you have seen this lack of respect.

Krsna is the SUPREME among all the personalities of Godhead.. supreme because he displays more qualities, features, rasas in His original (govindam ADI purusham) syamasundara form, than, for example, when'he's acting as mahavishnu, varaha, vamana, kalki and so on. So there's not superiority or inferiority.... there's a full display of the qualities of god and partial displays, the person (krishna) is the same. Exactly like you.. when you go to the job you display some features, behaviour and abilities, when you are with friends others, when you are with sons others, when you are with wife others, when you deal with one who's aggessive with you other ones. So, same person.... different way to show his personality.. it is a mistake to say that every "manifestation" is identical , or that the persons are different and one good, one bad or so... but it is also wrong to negate that when you are in the family, with your beloved sons, wife, intimate friends and parents, this is not the most complete display of your qualities, the "original" because it is the origin of all your behaviours, and the sweetest and nicest way to know and love you. So this is krsna and vishnu.. not that one's good, one's bad.. krsna simply dispalys more and more inimate.

 

And this is in line with prabhupada's teachings.. and it is very logic also.

 

" Lord Narayana does not lose his SATCHITANANDA Rupam at any time"

•••••wich hare krishna is saying this? haribol!!!

 

"Radha is same as Laxmi Devi only forms are different."

••••laksmi comes from radha... the same as krsna and vishnu.. not that one's spiritual or another is material, one good one bad, simply different display of rasas and qualities.

 

" so is Radha and Laxmi Devi Identical."

••••identical is not exact..... as i have explained..

 

"krsna is the only one" and "all them are identical" are both two very bad misunderstanding, that even if they seem different, they lead to impersonalism.. mayavadism.. atheism, because in both cases we are negating the VARIETY in the god's personality..

 

so you have a false belief of what is the average idea of avataras and expansions in IskCon.... or you have spoken with a very neophite and uninformed devotee.

But please abstain in future to say false things about krsna bhaktas

 

(and the "devas & krsna" subject is completely different)

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

" Lord Narayana does not lose his SATCHITANANDA Rupam at any time"

•••••wich hare krishna is saying this? haribol!!!

 

 

I do not know when HKs like you are going to understand what SRUTI teaches and when people like you are going to stop blaspheming GovindA. In addition to this people like you misinterpret Srila Prabhupada's teachings and Gaudiya teachings. May GovindA lead you to right knowledge. Perhaps this should be taught to all your ISKCON gurus(who teach wrong things) first.

 

To believe that GovindA becomes different things is to believe that HE is mutable and that HE can be destroyed. This is wrong knowledge and blasphemous and amounts to atheism.

 

SRUTI stands above all auhorities including Bramha Samhita. That is why I quoted the SRUTI. Once more

 

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate |

purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate

Om santih santih santih

 

Om. That is perfect. This is perfect.

From the perfect springs the perfect.

If the perfect is taken from the perfect,

the perfect remains.

 

Om. That BEING is the abode of knowledge and bless.(Sha + Anth + Eh)

That BEING is the abode of knowledge and bless.

That BEING is the abode of knowledge and bless.

 

Now coming to Bramha Samhita(Translated and commented by Srila Prabhupada):

 

http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bs.html

 

Read Srila Prabhpada's comments in bold.

 

TEXT 46

diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetia

dipayate vivrta-hetu-samana-dharma

yas tadrg eva hi ca visnutaya vibhati

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

WORD FOR WORD

dipa-arcih--the name of a lamp; eva--as; hi--certainly; dasa-antaram--another lamp; abhyupetya--expanding; dipayate--illuminates; vivrta-hetu--with its expanded cause; samana-dharma--equally powerful; yah--who; tadrk--similarly; eva--indeed; hi--certainly; ca--also; visnutaya--by His expansion as Lord Vishnu; vibhati--illuminates; govindam--Govinda; adi-purusam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajami--worship.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The light of one candle being communicated to other candles, although it burns separately in them, is the same in its quality. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who exhibits Himself equally in the same mobile manner in His various manifestations.

 

PURPORT

The presiding Deities of Hari-dhama, viz., Hari, Narayana, Visnu, etc.. the subjective portions of Krsna, are being described. The majestic manifestation of Krsna is Narayana, Lord of Vaikuntha, whose subjective portion is Karanodakasayi Vishnu, the prime cause, whose portion is Garbhodakasayi. Ksirodakasayi is again the subjective portion of Garhhodakasayi Visnu. The word "Visnu" indicates all-pervading, omnipresent and omniscient personality. In this sloka the activities of the subjective portions of the Divinity are enunciated by the specification of the nature of Ksirodakasayi Vishnu. The per- sonality of Vishnu, the ennbodied form of the manifestive quality (sattva-guna) is quite distinct from that of Sambhu who is adulterated with mundane qualities. Vishnu's subjective personality is on a level with that of Govinda. Both consist of the unadulterated substantive principle. Visnu in the fornn of the manifest causal principle is identical with Govinda as regards quality. The manifestive quality (sattva-guna) that is found to exist in the triple mundane quality, is an adulterated entity being alloyed with the qualities of mundane activity and inertia. Brahma is the dislocated portion of the Divinity, manifested in the principle of mundane action, endowed with the functional nature of His subjective portion; and Sambhu is the dislocated portion of the Divinity manifested in the principle of mundane inertia possessing similarly the functional nature of His subjective portion. The reason for their being dislocated portions is that the two principles of mundane action and inertia being altogether wanting in the spiritual essence any entities, what are manifested in them, are located at a great distance from the Divinity Himself or His facsimiles. Although the mundane manifestive quality is of the adulterated kind, Vishnu, the manifestation of the Divinity in the mundane manifestive quality, makes His appearance in the unadulterated manifestive principle which is a constituent of the mundane manifestive quality. Hence Vishnu is the full subjective portion and belongs to the category of the superior isvaras. He is the Lord of the deluding potency and not alloyed with her. Visnu is the agent of Govinda's own subjective nature in the form of the prime cause. All the majestic attributes of Govinda, aggregating sixty in number, are fully present in His majestic manifestation, Narayana. Brahma and Siva are entities adulterated with mundane qualities. Though Vishnu is also divine appearance in mundane quality (guna-avatara), still He is not adulterated. The appearance of Narayana in the form of Maha-Visnu, the ap- pearance of Maha-Visnu in the form of Garbhodakasayi and the appearance of Visnu in the form of Ksirodakasayi, are examples of the ubiquitous function of the Divinity. Vishnu is Godhead Himself, and the two other guna-avataras and all the other gods are entities possessing authority in subordination to Him. From the subjective majestic manifestation of the supreme self-luminous Govinda emanate Karanodakasayi, Garbhodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and all other derivative subjective divine descents (avataras) such as Rama, etc., analogous to communicated light appearing in different candles, shining by the operation of the spiritual potency of Govinda.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Please forgive me for using strong words in my previous post. I read your first line and then wrote it without reading the rest.

 

Anyway whether Avataras are SELF-SAME GovindA and the rest like balarama are different.

 

I was talking about SELF-SAME Avataras like Lord Rama, Lord Narasimha etc. which are identical to Lord Krishna or GovindA. Srila Prabhupadas comments on the verse of Bramha Samhita also says the same.

[Guest guest]

Hello

First of all u said in previous post that Laxmi Devi is a jiva. She is not jiva tattva. She is eternally Shakti Tattva. To learn about the different tattvas, that is jiva tattva, maya tattva, vishnu tattva and shakti tattva, you can read Sri Sri Chaitanya Charitamritam Adi lila.

Also, Veda Vyasji is not Vishnu tattva but he is considered a shaktyavesh avatar, rather jiva tattva who has been infused with Vishnu shakti. Such a phenomena is also explained in C.C. as well as Srimad Bhagawatam.

It is true that in tattva all of the Vishnu avatars such as Sri Narsingha and Sri Rama, etc are indeed equal. However in rasa and in lila there is a big, big difference. You can learn more about lila tattva and rasa siddhanta by reading Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami as well as 10th canto Bhagavatam with commentaries by Srila Vishvanath Charavarti Thakur. If you are able to understand sanskrit or bengla then that is all the better for u can read these commentaries in their original texts. You are not wrong, you are just not fully informed of all the intricacies of tattva and siddhanta. More reading, in addition to deep chanting of Nama, will definitely expand your understanding.

Good luck!

 

[Guest guest]

The above post is meant for the GUEST who is arguing that all avatars are exactly the same in all respects, not for YASHODANANA.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Also, Veda Vyasji is not Vishnu tattva but he is considered a shaktyavesh avatar, rather jiva tattva who has been infused with Vishnu shakti

 

 

1. Please quote those verses.

 

2. Present Veda Vyasa(Lord Krishna Dvaipanya Veda Vyasa) is Lord GovindA himself. So is Lord Parasurama, Kapila etc. To my knowledge none of the Madhva Sampradaya Acharyas(like Sri Raghavendraswamy) claimed like you claim. So I reject it.

 

Here Sri Raghavendraswamy of Madhva Smapradaya claims that Srila Vyasadeva is Lord Hari HIMSELF.

http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/mbtn/mbtnr.pdf

 

ks. ¯&#305;r¯abdhyunmathan¯adik¯atmacaritam. devairgr. adbhih. stutah.

saj ¯an¯aya par¯a´sar¯akhyamunin yah. satyavaty¯amabh¯ut

vy¯asatvena vidh¯aya vedavivr. tim. ´s¯astr¯an. i sarv¯an. yapi

j ¯anam. satsu nidh¯aya sadgatakalim. nighnan sa no’vy¯addharih. 10

Lord Hari, who was extolled (even) by gods for His glories;

(Lord Hari who) removed obstacles and helping to churn the ocean of milk

(Lord Hari who) is praised by the gods for establishing correct knowledge;

(Lord Hari who) incarnated as Vedavy¯asa in Satyavat¯&#305; through

Par¯a´sara Muni;

(Lord Hari, who as Vedavy¯asa) established the classification of the Vedas;

(Lord Hari, who as Vedavy¯asa) authored many ´s¯astras

(such as the Brahma-S¯utras and Mah¯abh¯arata);

(Lord Hari, who as Vedavy¯asa) imparts right knowledge in good people;

(Lord Hari, who as Vedavy¯asa) destroyed the evil Kali present in the

hearts of good people;

May Sri Hari, this Vedavyas¯atmaka, protect us.

---------------------------

 

Here in VAyu PurAnA, it is declared that present Veda Vyasa is lord Visnu himself.

 

http://www.salagram.net/gp-Vyaasadev.htm

 

"In this yuga the son of Parasara, who is glorified as a part of Visnu and who is known as Dvaipayana, the vanquisher of all enemies, became Srila Vyasa. Urged by Brahma, he undertook the task of classifying the Vedas. Srila Vyasa accepted four disciples to preserve and continue the Vedas. They were Jaimini who took care of the Sama Veda, Sumantu - the Atharva Veda, Vaisampayana - the Yajur Veda and Paila - the Rg Veda, and for the Itihasa and Puranas - Lomaharsana."(Sri Vayu Purana 60:10-16.).

According to Vayu Purana it says, "Previously there have been twenty-eight Vyasas, but when the twenty-eighth appears, Lord Visnu, the most Glorious, Great Father of the three worlds, becomes Dvaipayana Vyasa. Then Lord Sri Krsna, the best amongst the Yadus will be born of Vasudeva and will be known as Vasudeva. Then in due course I (Vayu) will come in the form of an ascetic and assuming the body of a religious student, will surprise the world by means of the Lord's 'yoga maya'." (Vayu Purana 23:206-208.) Actually, this is Vayudeva announcing his appearance as Sripad Madhwacarya.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Srila Vyasa Deva:

 

Bhagavatham:

------------------------

Canto One:

 

Chapter 3:

 

21. Thereafter, in the seventeenth incarnation of Godhead, Sri Vyasadeva

appeared in the womb of Satyavati through Parasara Muni, and he divided

the one Veda into several branches and subbranches, seeing that the

people in general were less intelligent.

------------------------

Canto TWO

 

Chapter Seven

 

36. The Lord Himself in His incarnation as the son of Satyavati

[Vyasadeva] will consider his compilation of the Vedic literature to be

very difficult for the less intelligent persons with short life, and

thus He will divide the tree of Vedic knowledge into different branches,

according to the circumstances of the particular age.

-------------------------

 

Do you need any more.

 

Srila Veda Vyasa(Lord Krishna Dvaipanya Veda Vyasa) is Svayam GovindA. When it says in other places simply vyasa being created by Lord, there it refers to other great munis. The next Veda Vyasa is AsvathAma.

[Guest guest]

dear yashodanandan ji,

 

i thank you for your very good post. our views are mostly in agreement. below i show my view to see if you could agree.

 

<< "As far as Hindu Nationalism"

•••yes, why to support?, a bhakta does not support USA nationalism, Uganda nationalism, Russian nationalism and so on... have i support something blindly because there's written INDIA? i do not think so!! >>

 

at one time in the past there was no other religion but sanatana dharma only. that is now called hinduism (a new name.) a vaishnav lives by a major branch of this hinduism (dharma). so then why not support hindu nationalism? all the competing religions, some very aggresive and violent, have wiped out this hinduism from the most part of the world. now it is left in india only. no matter how imperfect these hindus are at this time (not for ever, and not all), they still value this dharma and want a secure land for hinduism in the birth place of hinduism. so what is wrong about it? just as a prison is where crooks live, but if there is one cell there where a KC persons lives and spreads KC in prison, then that cell must be protected from attacks by others. same for this world, a material prison, where there is one country (bharat) where krishna did his lila, spoke gita, vyas wrote vedic literature, and is the the beacon for dharma for the whole world to learn from. HK's are a great force in spreading this dharma, and bharat is their land of choice (in principle) because it is krishna's choice. (a Hk would want to go to vrindavan and not mecca for yatra.) even chaitanya has said that one born in india is a special soul. even prabhuopada has shown love for india and vririndavan, etc. no other invaded ideology in india will care for dharma or dhamas or vedic culture. but hindus and HK's do, they ought to. why? for the benefit of the future generations of the world.

 

now why i say HK's are hindus?

just as an apple or an orange cannot says it is not a fruit, so an HK cannot say he/she is not a hindu.

only a muslim, a ., a jew, buddhist, etc. can say he/she is not a hindu. an advaiti is a hindu, a dwaiti viashnava is a hindu, a durga worshpper is a hindu, a shiva worshippr is a hindu, but a allah worshipper or jesus worshipper is not a hindu.

 

islam cannot tolerate any other religion, same for . in principle. there are many real stories where new HK's have had suffered greatly from their own parents and relatives because they chose krishna.

 

sanatana dharma is intrinsically secular in nature. This hindu meaning of secularism is different from the western meaning of secularism. it does not need western concept of secularism imposed upon it. so, in principle, a hindu is secular. but that does not mean a hindu must tolerate barbaric invaded ideology on the vedic land. krishna said arjun to fight adharma. arjun finally said:

 

"karishye vachanam tava"

 

arjun was a vaishnav, an HK.

 

krishna has never said any one to destroy all varnas of the society, and simply keep brahmanas. (all islam invaders killed brahmans first. this is one reason why india lost good brahmans. but islam has not changed a bit. if Hk's are brahmanas, then they are the first target of islam. so, why not recognize who is friend and who is foe of HK's.)

 

jai sri krishna! -madhav

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest

there are some similarites between the Madhva and Gaudiya Sampradayas. but there are many differences in siddhanta also. therefore i respect ur freedom of choice to join whichever sampradaya you like and i respect the beliefs therein even if they differ with mine. if you have no interest in studying the works of the six goswamis that is ok with me. all the best of luck to you.

 

Madhava

Are u suggesting that india become a country in which only hindusim is the practiced religion? i believe in the separation of religion and state. separation between religion and politics. i prefer to live in a country which gives people the right to worship in whatever way they desire. and i like to learn about all different kinds of religions and i have friends from all major religions of the world. i would love to go on yatra to Mecca also, but it is hard to get visa for Saudi Arabia. Maybe one day one of my Saudi friends can manage that for me and i will be lucky to learn yet again of another country's culture and customs, like i learned of India's.

Jai Shri Radhe!

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Dear Guest

there are some similarites between the Madhva and Gaudiya Sampradayas. but there are many differences in siddhanta also. therefore i respect ur freedom of choice to join whichever sampradaya you like and i respect the beliefs therein even if they differ with mine. if you have no interest in studying the works of the six goswamis that is ok with me. all the best of luck to you.

 

 

No. I do believe in Madhva and his sampradaya very much. I am also a believer of Mahaprabhu. I have respect for the teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I want to learn and experience all teachings of Vaishnavas.

 

The point is whether Srila Veda Vyasa is SELF-SAME GovindA or not. I have quoted from Bhagavatham and Vaayu Purana about this, which proves according to me Vyasa Deva is SELF-SAME GovindA.

 

I do not have Chaitanya Charitamrita at hand. So I don't believe when somebody says that Veda Vyasa is a Jiva, which is not correct.

 

Please quote the verse, verse number and the scripture to support your view.

[yasodanandana 0]

"May GovindA lead you to right knowledge"

••••thanks prabhu.. but please help Him with intelligent concept not offences

 

"To believe that GovindA becomes different things is to believe...."

••••no one says that govinda becomes different things (please explain where in my message i have said it)....

 

krsna displays all the complete features of god

krsna when acts as vishnu displays less features

 

not so difficult.... the comment of prabhupada you put in the message does not contraddict what i have said:

"The majestic manifestation of Krsna is Narayana, Lord of Vaikuntha, whose subjective portion is Karanodakasayi Vishnu, the prime cause, whose portion is Garbhodakasayi. Ksirodakasayi is again the subjective portion of Garhhodakasayi Visnu."

manifestation... portion... portion.... portion... this gives value to my words.

 

And (i am not initiated but not by an iskcon master) please say what master says that vishnu is not krsna (in your meaning)

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

"May GovindA lead you to right knowledge"

••••thanks prabhu.. but please help Him with intelligent concept not offences

 

 

I apologize again. I am an idiot. Forgive me please. I apologized in the next post after I made the offensive post.

 

When I read the first line that all avataras of Lord are not IDENTICAL, passion fired in my mind. May GovindA lead me too.

[yasodanandana 0]

"at one time in the past there was no other religion but sanatana dharma only. that is now called hinduism"

••••it is not exact for me.. hinduists now accept between them things that i and vaishnavas do not accept as "eternal dharma" or even "dharma".... if one who says that the ultimate reality is brahman, that paramatma and bhagavan are maya.. i do not consider them dharmic... so i respect all branches coming from vedas on the dialogue plane, but i do not belong to the same religion of who says for example that an avatar is a material manifestation of the spiritual brahman only to facilitate the more ignorants.

Even if we have the same dresses, similar archana, same books.. vaishnava conception is more similar to christianism (for example) than to "hindu" mayavadis. Are Hare Krishna Christians?... a little bit, because they respect the commandments given in the bible and the teaching of christ as a subproduct of following the gita. Are Hare Krishna Hindus? a little.. as i have already explained

 

"why not support hindu nationalism?"

•••••because it is a nationalism... from a dictionary: "a patriotic feeling... an extreme form of this.... exaggerated or aggressive patriotism..... excessive or prejudiced support or loyalty for one's cause or group or sex"

How a spiritualist has to be a part of it? He's putting attention on the soul, not on the body, family, religion, nation... a spiritualist supports the NAMA.. krsna nama, ram nama. And obviously many of the nationalist issues are not for nama, they are dor the matter, maya.. so why support as a whole? If you chant "raghupati raghava raja ram.." i am with you, if you kill and destroy to do this i go away.

 

" they still value this dharma and want a secure land for hinduism in the birth place of hinduism. so what is wrong about it?"

•••••the way is wrong.. to answer to fanatics as other fanatics and to mix proud and material motivation to this. And, first of all, to not think that the main task is to go back to godhead, so we have to chant nama more as we can.. this world will never be perfect, let us find the perfection in vaikunta, not in india, america, italy and so on.

 

"even chaitanya has said that one born in india is a special soul."

••••i am extremely convinced BEING a DISCIPLE of TWO INDIANS.. prabhupada and my guru maharaja... so please, teach us spirituality!! for religion wars we westerners are superspecialized, we know how they go on, at the end everyone is sinful and evil.

 

"just as an apple or an orange cannot says it is not a fruit, so an HK cannot say he/she is not a hindu."

••••as i have said, the hindus are putting between fruits things that for me are "nails" and "screws" like the mayavadis... so i am not in a team with them, but not because i hate them, but because i do not see anything in common, They are saying that the thing i live most... krsna... is maya (=what is not), So how i can belong to the same religion?

 

"jesus worshipper is not a hindu. "

••••yes.. but hes more close to the vaishnava siddhanta than a mayavadi!! So, wich is the system to make religious groups? i think on religious ideas, so why i am in a group (hinduism) with people with ideas opposite to mine?

 

" This hindu meaning of secularism is different from the western meaning of secularism"

•••••please explain to me.. in italian religious language "secular" means material... "secolo" or "saeculum" in latin means "century".. so there's contrast between values belonging to the "secolo.. century...", or limited in time, and eternal ones SANATANA.

So hearing you sayng that sanatana is secular, or eternal is limited in time is very strange. But maybe is a language thing.

 

"krishna said arjun to fight adharma. arjun finally said:

"karishye vachanam tava"

arjun was a vaishnav, an HK"

••••vaishnav means to SURRENDER to the bona fide spiritual master belonging to parampara, like arjuna have done. So you cannot decide what is to serve krsna or ramachandra by your self, you have to ask to a representative, My spiritual master have said that the only medicine for the disease of the world is nama, never adviced to have part in nationalisms, never adviced to fight for ayodya's temple and so on. The same said Prabhupad. Krsna comes in this yuga as chaitanya mahaprabhu leaving the chakra at home and using only the nama as a weapon, Read the story of jagai and madai.

So arjuna has the intruction to fight (other indian/hindus!!!!!:-)), i not.

 

"krishna has never said any one to destroy all varnas of the society, and simply keep brahmanas"

••••so if there's pure ksatryas, pure as arjuna, ordered directly by krsna or guru maharaja to do this it is ok for me.... if we are speaking of hindu politicians or exagitated people better they do not touch even an hair. Ksatrya is first of all a servant of a pure king, and king is a servant of pure brahmanas... where are they? Where are ksatryas? I have to be an hindu to support some poor conditionated people called hindu going against some poor conditionated people called muslims? If you have injustice vote for a better govern in india, better police, better surveillance and so on. Why bother krsna, rama, narasimha, chaitanya.... allah... christ?

 

"why not recognize who is friend and who is foe of HK's"

••••• i judge personally... if you hurt me you are an enemy, not that you are an enemy because you're muslim.

 

so, madhav, if you want to follow sanatana dharma i can give you the address of my "sanatana dharma" gurudeva... ask to him if you can go to be the new "arjuna" . Sanatana dharmi is one who is following, not one who is born hindu.

[yasodanandana 0]

"I am an idiot. "

••••i protest... you are a devotee!!

"When I read the first line that all avataras of Lord are not IDENTICAL"

••••we can say more!! not identical, identical means two objects.. one apple and another apple and they're identical.. the avataras are the SAME PERSON (=krsna) displaying different qualities in different intensity and quantity...

 

[Guest guest]

<< "at one time in the past there was no other religion but sanatana dharma only. that is now called hinduism"

••••it is not exact for me.. hinduists now accept between them things that i and vaishnavas do not accept as "eternal dharma" or even "dharma".... >>

 

a side point: the words like iskconites and hinduist do nto help in communication. so i do not use them and suggest such words not be used.

 

now the main point: yes, a vaishnav sadhana is diffrerent from a non viashnavs hindu's sadhana. however all the different hindus have lived together peacefully for milleniums. a hindu of one branch does not declare jihad on any other hindu branch. no advaiti has destroyed any krishna or any other deva's temple. no vaishnava has burnted advaita literature of advaitis, nor have they called names to advaiti aacharyas. besides, some hindus may not know hinduism correctly as given in gita or the vedas, but these hindus' words or actions do not define hinduism. hinduism is defined by the vedas and gita. all hindus and HK's agree to this fact.

 

<< Are Hare Krishna Christians?... a little bit, because they respect the commandments given in the bible and the teaching of christ as a subproduct of following the gita >>

 

one cannot follow two paths at the same time.

Vasu murthi, a nuclear physicist in oakand ca, has done extensive research to prove to the xians that they need to support KC rather than fight with it. yes, there are similarities, but both are not same. e.g. xians belive there is no soul in animals; god is jealous; gita is devil's work, etc. you did not like . and therefore have chosen KC.

 

krishna says:

sarva dharmaan parityaja maam ekam sharanam vraja.

 

he does not say put one leg in . and one with him.

Howeve, shift could be gradual, but the progress should be towards krishna and no other ideology.

 

<< "why not support hindu nationalism?"

•••••because it is a nationalism... from a dictionary: "a patriotic feeling... >>

 

the vedic literatuer says that there are ten mothers:

one's natural mother, prithvi, king's wife, guru's wife, elder brother's wife, etc. these mothers have to be loved, not hated. one loves one's birth country. this is natural.

bharat is special. all the gurus in the parampara of Hk's are from india. none came from mecca, or jerusalem. all the gurus before prabhupada live in india with advaitis and other different hindus. no one destroyed others' lives or religious infrastructure. now if that dharma is important to HK's, then that country, the mother of all the aacharyas before prabhuoada must be important because they did love that country. there is no reason to hate that country a home of sanatana dharma and the aacharyas and the people who kept that dharma alive for milleniums in very hostile conditions created by invaded islam. if they did not keepit and all became muslims, then no Hk would have become a KC person. Besides, any Hk has to live as a citizen of a nation. every HK is under the law of a nation. every nation has police and military who protect the rights of Hk's. why they work? because they are with kshatriya spirit,amd love their country. why hindus want a hindu nation, because hinduism is for all the people of all the time. it has to be kept alive and so needs its birth place safe from any aggresoors. if Hk's cannot understand this that it is in their interest to have a nation where no one is allowed to destroy sanatana dharma, they who would?

 

 

<< an extreme form of this.... exaggerated or aggressive patriotism..... excessive or prejudiced support or loyalty for one's cause or group or sex" >>

 

Hk's are extreme in their sadhana of krishna.

similarly a kshatriya has to be extreme in his work.

same for other varnas. all ahve to be do their dharma correctly. no varna is immune from mistake or misunderstanding. if there is any evidence that hindus want hindu nation for sex, then please share it, else such lies could not help in meaningful discussion.

 

<< How a spiritualist has to be a part of it? He's putting attention on the soul, not on the body, family, religion, nation... >>

 

there are selfish spiritualists who care for their own spiritual progress and not others. but there are other spiritualists who care for others of their times and of the future times. prabhuapda wass one. he ared for the hippies and others. that is why he came to USA. elase he choudl ahve stayed in vrindavan and could have attained his final destination there. HK's being like him, ought to care for others. any Hk needs a home, this means any Hk needs a nation where his KC practice is protected and respected. a hindu nation will protect all karishna devotees among others.

 

<< a spiritualist supports the NAMA.. krsna nama, ram nama. And obviously many of the nationalist issues are not for nama, they are dor the matter, maya.. so why support as a whole? >>

 

assocaite with the sanatana dharma nationalists, and you will see that they will supportall you said above. take time to understand them. it takes time becaue yyou are not born on that holy land.

 

<< If you chant "raghupati raghava raja ram.." i am with you, >>

 

no i do not sing that song. it is not a bhajan as explained by prabhupada. it is a politically motivateds song (composed and publicised by a politician gandhi) to delude the hindus that "iswar" and "allah" concepts are same. it deludes them to tolerate the barbaric muslims who cannot tolerate hinduism.

 

<< if you kill and destroy to do this i go away. >>

krishna and the vedic literture says that some time killing is dharma. that is the reason why krishna sait to arjun:

 

"yuddhaaya krita nischaya.."

an Hk cannot dump gita.

 

 

 

<< And, first of all, to not think that the main task is to go back to godhead, so we have to chant nama more as we can.. this world will never be perfect, let us find the perfection in vaikunta, not in india, america, italy and so on. >>

 

please teach this successfully to invader aggresor islam before the victims of islam who gave you KC.

 

<< for religion wars we westerners are superspecialized, we know how they go on, at the end everyone is sinful and evil. >>

 

was arjun sinful when he fought kauravas?

was rama sinful when whe he fought ravana?

was prabhuopda was sinful when he fought many court cases in USA and UK? a vedic person never belives all are sinners just like xians believe.

 

<< "jesus worshipper is not a hindu. "

••••yes.. but hes more close to the vaishnava siddhanta than a mayavadi!! >>

 

and is that the reason that the xians have created cow slaughter houses all over the world? no advaiti owns a slaughter house.

 

<< " This hindu meaning of secularism is different from the western meaning of secularism"

•••••please explain to me.. >>

 

krishna says:

 

idam te natapaskaya

nabhaktaya kadacana

na casusrusave vacyam

na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati

 

krishna also says in other chapter that one wise should not distur by the faith of other but lead by example.

he did not say do jihad against other non aryans.

(BTW, anryan is not a race.)

 

this is vedic secularism.

you cannot find such a thing in koran or bible.

 

<< the hindus are putting between fruits things that for me are "nails" and "screws" like the mayavadis... >>

 

and muslims are dropping bombs in vedic temples.

xians are erecting cow slaughrte houses.

no advaiti does that.

 

<< "krishna said arjun to fight adharma. arjun finally said:

"karishye vachanam tava"

arjun was a vaishnav, an HK"

••••vaishnav means to SURRENDER to the bona fide spiritual master belonging to parampara, like arjuna have done. So you cannot decide what is to serve krsna or ramachandra by your self, you have to ask to a representative, My spiritual master have said that the only medicine for the disease of the world is nama, never adviced to have part in nationalisms, never adviced to fight for ayodya's temple and so on. The same said Prabhupad. Krsna comes in this yuga as chaitanya mahaprabhu leaving the chakra at home and using only the nama as a weapon, Read the story of jagai and madai.

So arjuna has the intruction to fight (other indian/hindus!!!!!:-)), i not. >>

 

ok, but understand that those who fight fight for a nation where krishna bhaktas will feel always safe. if you choose to be a brahmana, fine, but do not say that kshatirya dharma is useless. you need to understand them and encourge them to fight like arjund did fight.

 

<< "why not recognize who is friend and who is foe of HK's"

••••• i judge personally... if you hurt me you are an enemy, not that you are an enemy because you're muslim. >>

 

has any one seen any evidence i hurt you?

dont you feel hurt when the vedic temples are attacked by muslims, when bamian buddha statue was taached?

a brahmana, being humble does not feel hurt easily.

a kshatriya feels hurt and that motivates him to fight.

who will fight for you (HK's)?

 

<< so, madhav, if you want to follow sanatana dharma i can give you the address of my "sanatana dharma" gurudeva...>>

 

thanks. i respect your guru and most of your posts.

i am not guru-less. guru, sadhus, and shastras; all these guide. not only a guru.

 

jai sri krishna! -madhav